Episode 149 - We Need To Talk About Codependency

For a long time, codependency has been framed as weakness or passivity—that’s why so many strong, capable, high-functioning women hear that word and immediately think, that is absolutely not me. In this episode, I explore where the concept of codependency actually came from and why that original definition often doesn’t fit. When we widen the lens, codependency starts to look a lot more like over-functioning and organizing your time, energy, and identity around other people. When we can understand it in that way, it opens up a much more honest and hopeful path forward. Here’s what I cover:

• Why the original addiction-based definition of codependency misses how it shows up for high-functioning women

• How control can turn into codependency and start to replace your self-connection

• What it looks like when your identity is built around being needed or emotionally steady

• How codependency costs you your time, energy, and brain space, whether it feels like over-functioning or under-functioning

• Questions to help you notice where you’re managing others in order to feel okay

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:59

We're going to talk about codependency and specifically where we got that word and why so many strong, intelligent, high functioning, highly capable women hear that word and think that is absolutely not me, but what we can actually learn from what it actually is. 

 01:20

Because for so long, codependency has been framed as weakness, as passivity. You're not able to say no. You stand by while someone else's chaos and shenanigans cause all kinds of negative results and you just don't do anything about it. 

 01:36

And when I bring this up with clients that I'm working with, a lot of them share that definition and they don't identify with it at all, right? These women are not passive. They're capable, they are competent, they are endlessly resourceful, often the strongest person in the room. 

 01:57

But I think if we understand codependency from a different lens, it actually opens up a really beautiful opportunity for growth and how to have a better experience. So let's start at the beginning. The concept of codependency actually came out of work in addiction recovery spaces in the late 20th century. 

 02:20

And one of the most influential books in that movement was Codependent No More by a woman named Melody Beattie. And for the time, it was an amazing book because it cracked open this very confusing behavior pattern that was observed in groups or families where there was one person who was addicted to alcohol, whatever, and what the other family members did in relationship to that addicted person. 

 02:53

And it named patterns that were invisible and oftentimes really confusing. Because in addiction, codependency was described as staying with someone when they're harming themselves or others. Enabling. 

 03:10

That's kind of where this enabling language comes out of where you enable their destructive behavior. You are losing yourself through constant over-accommodation. And you're not able to detach from this other person, even when what they're doing is something that is clearly unhealthy. 

 03:32

And that framing made a lot of sense inside of those addiction systems. This was a really important book that mattered a lot because it helped people understand why loving someone with an addiction could slowly kind of erase you. 

 03:49

And it gave language to pain that was just kind of normal and had been normal for generations. But the problem was, is that that model framed codependency primarily as under functioning, not setting limits, enduring clearly messed up disruptive behavior, this chronic self-sacrifice, avoidance, collapsing or being helpless emotionally. 

 04:20

Someone who didn't believe that they could survive without the other person. And they were constantly just hoping that the other person would change. Now, a lot of those behaviors are true of us when we are stuck in people pleasing. 

 04:35

I'm not trying to say that that definition doesn't work and doesn't have value because absolutely we can each see places or situations in which we do that. I just think it's incomplete because when the only image of someone who is codependent is someone who is powerless, who is overwhelmed, who's unable to act. 

 05:01

That feels very weak and it feels very passive. There's lots of distress and hand wringing, but nobody ever intervenes or asserts themselves or says, I'm not putting up with this anymore. This has got to stop. 

 05:18

And that's what makes the definition feel so alien to high functioning women. Because that's not what's happening, right? What gets missed or what I think needs to be added is that the old definition frames codependency as under functioning. 

 05:40

And I think we need to include what happens when the woman doesn't collapse, when she doesn't disappear and she's not powerless and feeling confused and wringing her hands. The original definition really assumes the problem is a lack of action. 

 05:57

But for many of us, the problem isn't passivity. It's too much action, taking too much responsibility, inserting, doing, planning, analyzing, controlling too much. When I first ran into this first definition, it was through my participation in a 12-step program. 

 06:21

If you've listened to some of my earlier episodes in the beginning, when my husband and I are talking, we talk about the time when we were still attending church and he was looking at pornography, which in Mormon land is a big no-no. 

 06:35

And so the response from our church leaders at the time was to send us to these 12-step addiction programs, because obviously, if you're looking at porn, you have a sex addiction or a porn addiction. 

 06:46

That's not always true, but that was the assumption. And then I went to a separate 12-step for codependence and we read codependent no more. And I just kept thinking, this is not me, right? I'm not passively standing by wringing my hands and afraid to bring this up with my husband. 

 07:07

I was strong. I was keeping track of everything, right? I was very observant and I had an endless ability to critique and to adjust and to plan and to try and control outcomes. I had scheduled check-ins where, you know, we would talk about his progress. 

 07:25

I had all of these systems in place for figuring out if he was looking at porn or not looking at porn. And so I was not like losing myself quietly over in the corner, crying tears and wringing my hands. 

 07:41

I was over functioning. I was holding everything together. This is what I was telling myself at the time, like, like, I am going to fix this, right? We, we are going to do this based on all of these outcomes in this spreadsheet. 

 07:56

I don't know that I actually have a spreadsheet, but I wouldn't put it past me for it to be the one time that I did make a spreadsheet. Like all of these markers will show us that you are moving in the right direction. 

 08:07

And I could come up with that stuff all day long. And so I didn't think that codependency would be my issue at all. But a really beautiful change has happened over the last little while as therapists and other thinkers have begun to apply the concept of codependency outside of just these addiction spaces, the definition has changed. 

 08:36

And so there's a lot more discussion of control disguised as taking care of people. And maybe you can think back to what I was just doing with my husband and his quote unquote porn addiction. Like, did I want him to think I was caring for him? 

 08:54

Sure, but I was controlling the hell out of him, right? Identity built around being needed. That is a really beautiful addition to this codependency discussion that we're having where, okay, what happens when your whole identity is built around being indispensable to other people? 

 09:15

That's not under-functioning. That's not quiet, tear-stained hand-wringing in the corner. That's over-functioning, over-responsibility. And then the third really important thing that has been added to the conversation about codependency is that we used to look at self-abandonment as some kind of moral high ground, right? 

 09:40

That I am so strong. I am so good. I've completely given myself over to solving this problem. And I just want to shout out authors like Terry Cole, who's the author of Too Much, and Pia Melody is a different trauma-informed thinker who have really helped us expand this codependency lens a little bit larger. 

 10:01

So here's what I want you to think about. Codependency, how I have found it to be most valuable to define for me and those I work with. It's not about not being able to set limits or not being able to say no. 

 10:17

It is about organizing all of your time, energy, and identity around managing others so that you can feel better and your own needs become optional. Because if you think back to what I was doing with my husband, my feeling better was dependent on him acting the way I thought he should be acting. 

 10:44

And I think you could think, if you slow down right now and just ask yourself this question, do I have a relationship where I insert myself, where I organize my time and my energy and maybe even my identity around them doing or feeling better so that I can do and feel better. 

 11:07

I think a lot of us have that type of relationship because what this looks like in real life is someone who's codependent, they know exactly how someone else is feeling and they don't always know how they're feeling. 

 11:22

They spend a lot of time mentally rehearsing conversations to prevent disappointment or conflict. They know how to automatically adjust their body language, their tone, or their needs to keep things running smoothly. 

 11:37

Sometimes they're the emotional processor for everyone else. I have a client who serves this function in her office. Everybody is always coming into her office, closing the door and wanting to talk through office stuff going on with her, right? 

 11:52

She processes emotions with and for everyone. People who jump in to fix problems no one asked you to fix. Staying in relationships where you are essential, everybody relies on you, but you are not supported the same way. 

 12:09

It's the person who remembers everything and anticipates what's going on and can kind of plan and organize around what other people need, not always knowing what you need. And here's the biggest one that really kind of hits me between the eyes. 

 12:27

Taking responsibility for outcomes that aren't yours. Caring about something more than the other person does, so much so that you have the plan, you have the resources, you're the one that's going to make it happen. 

 12:43

And what's confusing is that that looks like success from the outside. It's what we were taught we were supposed to be doing. The strong one, the smart one, the one who keeps it all running. We were taught if you do those things for other people, those things will be done for you. 

 13:03

And that's not the case because that's not how it works. Codependency is expensive. It costs so much time, hours spent thinking about other people's needs, moods, their reactions, and planning for that. 

 13:23

The energy output is incredible. That constant hypervigilance, the emotional labor that you're doing for other people, the way that that is just exhausting. Yeah, that's part of the cost. It costs brain space, managing relationships instead of being in your own life and solving your problems. 

 13:47

And I mean, resources, that just goes unsaid, right? Overgiving, overdoing financially, professionally, emotionally, while sometimes undergiving to yourself. It's not free to be codependent. It's just what we expect of women. 

 14:08

And whether your codependency feels a little bit more like the underfunctioning or the over functioning, it doesn't really matter. It's costing you your life, your time, your energy, your brain space. 

 14:23

And that's why it's so important to talk about. There's another part of this that I really want to address with some compassion and understanding because it makes so much sense. We don't hold on to these codependent behaviors because there's something wrong with us. 

 14:38

We hold on to them because they worked at some point in our past lives. And for many of us in our present lives, being competent, hopeful, all that emotional attunement that we learned was how we felt safe and belonged. 

 14:57

We weren't setting out to manage other people strictly to control them in the beginning. It was actually about preventing bad things from happening. So many of us had this little voice that said, listen, if you stay ahead of this, if you always know how to anticipate what other people need and want, that's how you control bad things from happening. 

 15:20

And for a lot of high functioning women, codependency becomes then part of our identity. We are the one who gets shit done, the strong one, the reliable one, the one who can handle it. And so the identity risk is real here. 

 15:38

It's not just about changing our behavior. It's who am I if I'm not always showing up in this capacity for other people? What do I do then? I think that was a question that I literally asked. Well, if I'm not going to spend all of this time managing and controlling what my husband is doing so that I can feel better, what am I going to do? 

 16:01

I have no idea. It's not just a behavioral change. It's a change in how I see myself. It can also mean disappointing people, right? All these people that you have been kind of smoothing the way for, they are going to feel some of the discomfort that you have been removing from their lives. 

 16:22

What is that going to be like? That's not nothing. And so if it feels scary to let go of some of these behaviors or to even think about it, that makes so much sense, right? It just means that this thing that used to keep you safe and might still in some of your relational situations be how you feel valuable, how you feel recognized and good. 

 16:47

Yeah, that matters. That means something. I just want to leave you with some questions, not as diagnosis, right? Nobody is doing anything wrong here. You are simply showing up in your relations the way you were taught to that got you safe and connected, right? 

 17:04

There's nothing wrong with you. I am curious about the energy expenditure, though, the time, the resources, the brain space, the way that this is showing up in your day-to-day life in terms of costing all this energy, you might want to have a different experience. 

 17:22

So here's some questions. And I want you to just consider. And if this episode really resonates for you, I want to talk to you about it. I want to talk to you about how you can make the switch from spending all of this time and energy managing other people so that you can feel better to just feeling better. 

 17:40

So here are the questions. How much time do I spend tracking other people's moods, needs, or reactions? And do I spend that much time checking in on myself? Question number two. Do I feel responsible for keeping things running smoothly or staying stable or okay in my relationships? 

 18:10

Meaning, when something feels off, do I feel an instinct to fix, to manage, or to somehow compensate for that? Question number three. Do I earn my place in relationships by being useful, competent, or emotionally steady? 

 18:33

So that gets to like, how am I valued? Am I valuable for what I can handle or for who I am? Question number four, do I rehearse conversations in my head to avoid other people feeling disappointed or to manage conflict or misunderstanding? 

 18:54

So am I planning how to say things so that no one gets upset? And last question, when I imagine expressing my own clear need or truth, what does my body feel? Do I feel fear? Do I feel pressure to soften it? 

 19:17

Does it feel risky? So you begin to get a sense of how codependency might be showing up for you. And that's where the work begins, right? Being aware and then wanting to have a different experience. Because what I can tell you now is that the amount of time and energy that I spent trying to manage and control other people's outcomes and congratulating myself for being the person who cared enough to do that, right?

 19:58

All that time and energy, all it created in my relationships was distance and contention and lack of trust. So what I want for you is the same thing that I want for me, which is I want to have relationships that feel mutual and feel reciprocal. 

 20:17

Are there times when people will need and want my help because I'm amazing? Yes. Same with you. You're amazing. You're capable. You have great instincts, right? You know what needs to be done. Is that valuable? 

 20:30

Yes. But I also want you to be able to show up as you with your needs, with your wants, with your dreams, and have there be place for both of those. Because the price of this codependency is that so much of your time and energy gets invested into other people that there's not a lot of it for you. 

 20:51

And that's what I hope you'll get curious about. And if you want to talk with me about how we can work on that together, use the link that's in my bio to set up a call. Because what is on the other side of codependency in your relationships is confidence and secure connection. 

 21:07

Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.

Episode 148 - You Can Get Good at Conflict

Improving your conflict skills isn’t about finding the perfect words—it’s about understanding why conflict feels so hard in the first place. When your body believes that speaking up could cost you connection, of course it freezes, softens, or stays quiet. In this episode, I talk about how our nervous systems learned early on that conflict wasn’t safe, and why that doesn’t mean something is wrong with you. When we slow down and get curious about our conflict response rather than judging it, that’s when real change becomes possible, and you can actually get good at conflict. Here’s what I cover:

• How shifting from “what’s wrong with me?” to “why does this make sense?” helps eliminate the self-criticism spiral

• The early lessons your body learned about conflict, compliance, and staying connected

• How people-pleasing and staying small function as intelligent survival strategies

• The questions I offer to help you look backward and make sense of your conflict response

• How attachment patterns shape what your body expects will happen when conflict threatens connection

Register for my upcoming workshop HERE!

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

The longer I do this, the more convinced I am that the way we are able to handle conflict, the way we are able to have difficult conversations that name our needs, our wants, our desires, what's working for us, what's not working for us, what hurt our feelings, what made us experience uncomfortable emotion in our relationships. 

 01:24

It really is freedom and it really is the linchpin in what makes you feel close in a relationship, what makes you feel like you can really be seen and heard. And so for a long time inside of Stop People Pleasing, which is my six-month group coaching program, we have spent a lot of time working on having difficult conversations. 

 01:50

And I recently expanded that section or that module, I guess, of our program to be a month. And I call it conflict month. And I laugh because when I say conflict month, I'm sure some of you are thinking, hell no, like there's, there's just, I am allergic to conflict. 

 02:12

I don't like it. I don't feel like I do a good job. And I totally get that. Conflict is the thing that feels like kryptonite, right? We hold back. We try to smooth things over. We disappear altogether. 

 02:28

We hold it inside. We don't rock the boat. And that response actually makes so much sense. And it is why we spend an entire month on conflict inside of Stop People Pleasing. Not because I think in a month we can have all the conflict solved and you can have all the skills and tools you'll ever need, but because beginning to understand how our nervous systems react in conflict, I think is the key to being able to live truly free. 

 03:00

It doesn't mean that hard things will never happen. It doesn't mean that there won't ever be rupture in relationship. But what it means is that we can talk about it. And if we're going to talk about it, we have to understand first why we can't talk about it. 

 03:17

Conflict isn't just about communication skills. If it were, I'm sure most of you who are so capable and so thoughtful and so incredibly intelligent, you would have figured it out. If it was just about figuring out the right words, done, right? 

 03:33

We would figure those out. But it's because whenever we think about saying those words, it's the nervous system response. This isn't safe. This is dangerous. Conflict is also about safety. And it's about the way we find connection. 

 03:52

It's about the way that our nervous systems learned a long time ago about what happens when you speak up or disagree or tell the truth. So that 's why we start with the body and we slow it way down. We start asking a different question because a lot of the women that I get inside of Stop People Pleasing, they come in and they're very self-critical. 

 04:20

I am a 40X year old woman or a 51X year old or a 30X year old. And why can't I just say the thing? Why do I freeze? Why does my stomach clench and my throat close up? What is wrong with me? While I understand where that question comes from, it just keeps you locked in this cycle of self-questioning and self-criticism and doesn't actually help us make sense of why you're having that reaction. 

 04:48

So I like to start with a different question. How did my body learn to react like this when conflict shows up? This question really matters because before we try to change something, we want to understand it. 

 05:05

So many women are stuck in that self-criticism and they can't see past the question of what's wrong with me to the better question, which I think is, why does this make sense? Conflict feels dangerous. 

 05:23

It feels dangerous to relationships. It feels dangerous to belonging, to being loved and included and connected. And when we can first start with how does this make sense, it softens that critical self-judgment piece of us that we've been locked in for so long. 

 05:42

And that alone creates some space for change. So let's start there together today. There's something important that I want you to remember about when you were younger. We all depended on the care of bigger, more capable adults. 

 06:00

Our parents, our caregivers, our school teachers, our coaches, religious leaders, all of those people kind of formed this protective net around us that allowed us to get what we needed to continue to survive. 

 06:13

And in that system, especially in the time that we grew up, we didn't have power. And often we didn't even really have a choice. We couldn't leave. We couldn't set and enforce boundaries. We couldn't say, I don't like that. 

 06:31

This doesn't work for me. I don't want to do that without some repercussions. And even when the adults in your life were well-loving or well-intentioned, the message was often very, very clear. If you do not comply, if you are not agreeable, if you're not obedient, if you disrupt this system, there are consequences. 

 06:54

And sometimes those consequences were small, right? I remember when I taught kindergarten, if a child was being disruptive at their table, I would remove them. That was a consequence, exclusion, being separated from your peers, being separated from your group. 

 07:14

Sometimes the consequences meant abuse, withdrawal of love. Even just weathering the disappointment or the silence or the emotional distance of those adults that we needed so badly for survival, that was a punishment. 

 07:33

And our nervous systems learned very, very early what is safe to do and what is not. And that learning made sense in the context of being young and being dependent. We had to do what the big people wanted. 

 07:51

Quick interruption. Thank you so much for listening. I asked this client a question today that I want to ask you. How long are you going to let yourself go unseen and unheard in your most important relationships? 

 08:05

This woman is so capable and so intelligent and also so lonely and resentful. And I know so many of you are as well. So I have a workshop coming up. Say what you need to say. And it's really important for two reasons. 

 08:19

Number one, it's going to teach you how to find the exact right words. I know that's something we all struggle with. What do I say is such a common question. But number two, it's also going to teach you how to work with the fear or the overwhelm or the anxiety that comes up when you actually go to say those words because we need both. 

 08:40

We need the right words, but we also need to be able to regulate our nervous systems so that we can actually say them and get to the connection and the vulnerability that we want and deserve. You deserve to be seen and heard in your relationships. 

 08:56

Check out the link in my bio. All the information you need about the workshop is there and I can't wait to see you. So I want you to hear this clearly. The problem is not that we learned to do that. That was brilliant. 

 09:13

That was an incredible survival system that we learned how to abide in. The problem now is that that adaptation, that survival strategy is still running. And so now, as an adult woman who is capable, who is articulate, who has some resources and can develop new skills, your body still believes if I'm not nice, if I don't smooth things over, if I rock the boat, something bad will happen. 

 09:48

And so you keep making yourself smaller. You keep editing and performing and paying the price. This is not weakness. This is not something wrong with you. Again, this is that brilliant, intelligent survival strategy that protected you for a long time. 

 10:07

And the only thing we need to do now is update it. In adult relationships, we really need to be seen. Not in all our relationships, but we need at least one or two where we can feel honest, where we can feel there's some reciprocity, where we can feel that there's intimacy, we are seen and we are known. 

 10:33

But that old strategy, performing and minimizing and staying silent, it doesn't create those things. It creates protection, right? You feel safe, but it's at the expense of honesty and vulnerability and connection sometimes. 

 10:53

And that's why so many women that I talk to are full of resentment and loneliness. We are so busy worrying about other people. And there's that voice inside that says, but what about us? What about me? 

 11:10

When will I get to be seen and supported the same way I do for everybody else? Or that voice of resentment. I am busting my ass day in and day out to do this for everyone else. Why are they not doing it for me? 

 11:26

So resentment and loneliness and frustration and sadness and grief, those are all, those make so much sense. And so during conflict month, we actually look backward before we look forward. And these are some of the questions that I ask inside the group that I want to ask you now so that you can do some looking backward in a way that feels helpful. 

 11:53

Question number one, what were you taught to believe about conflict? Maybe it was dangerous or disrespectful, or maybe it was just completely useless. Maybe you learned, I'm going to have a need, I'm going to speak up, and nobody's going to do a thing about it. 

 12:10

I will not be thought of. I will not be considered. Disrespectful. I'm going to bring up something I want and someone's going to get mad at me for having the nerve. Dangerous kind of covers a lot of the things that we felt, right? 

 12:26

I'm going to be abandoned. Nobody's going to want me. So think about the answer to that question. What were you taught to believe about conflict? Question number two, who was allowed to be angry in your family and who wasn't? 

 12:43

That'll tell you a lot about who gets to express their needs and who doesn't. What happens when you express needs or wants or preferences. And then question number three, what happened when someone challenged authority or named a need or said no? 

 13:03

Just think back to those answers because they will give you some really important data about why your current conflict response is what it is. And it makes sense. And when we start with, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. 

 13:23

Of course I feel like this. Of course I'm not willing to speak up. Of course this is hard for me. That is a place where change can happen and growth can happen. There's another layer that really shapes how you show up in conflict and that is attachment. 

 13:41

Attachment describes how we learned to stay connected to the people that we needed and what our body now expects will happen when we feel that connection is at risk or there's conflict. If we lean anxious, conflict can feel like if I say this, I will lose the relationship. 

 14:05

I will be abandoned. So we stay quiet, we soften, we manage, we pretend, and we perform. If you lean avoidant, conflict can actually feel very overwhelming. I'm going to lose myself. I'm not going to know what to say. 

 14:20

This is going to be too much. So you shut down, you detach, and you disengage. Those two styles, anxious and avoidant, describe a lot of people out there. There's more nuance there. I have a podcast episode number 43 that goes into some of that nuance. 

 14:39

But both of those responses make sense. There's one other attachment style, secure attachment, that holds a different belief that even if it feels really aspirational and like not what you're able to believe today, I still want you to hear it. 

 14:58

Secure attachment believes we can disagree and it's actually going to be okay. Conflict is actually going to bring us closer. It doesn't mean something is wrong. It's normal in human relationships. And as we go through this conflict together, we're going to better understand each other. 

 15:18

We're going to be able to see and honor each other as individual better. And we're going to be more connected. Connection isn't threatened by conflict. It's facilitated by it. And that belief changes everything because we can then start to help your body not react to conflict as a danger anymore. 

 15:45

It's not something that happens overnight, but over time, working with the parts of you that become very activated, the anxious part, the avoidant part, we can actually help your body not have the same reaction to conflict. 

 16:02

We also do a lot of working with our conflict avoidant parts because almost always there's a part of you that says, don't do it. Whenever there's conflict, don't do it. Don't say it. Just keep the peace. 

 16:17

This is going to blow everything up. You're going to get in a lot of trouble. You're going to lose the relationship. You're going to be overwhelmed, right? Whether that part is inherently avoidant or anxious, their solution is the same. 

 16:29

Don't say it. And so instead of fighting that part, we listen. We learn to ask, what are you afraid of? What are you trying to protect? And what do you need to know about who I am now so that we can have a different experience? 

 16:49

And that's where real change happens, not through forcing, but through partnership. The adult you, the adult you are now, learns to lean in to that younger part who learned that conflict was dangerous. 

 17:08

And instead of saying, what is the matter with you? What is wrong with you? Why can't you just say this? To say instead, I actually understand. This is scary. I hear you. You were right back then. And I'm here now. 

 17:24

That kind of partnership builds trust and it lays the foundation for our bodies to have a different experience with conflict as adults. All of this brings me to the workshop that I'm offering in a few weeks because Stop People Pleasing is not open right now, but I want you to have the opportunity to learn how to work with your nervous system in conflict. 

 17:51

And so I have a workshop, say what you need to say, because two things are always required in conflict. Number one, you do have to have words that feel good to you, the right words for you and for your situation. 

 18:04

And number two, you have to have a regulated nervous system. You have to be able to say the words and deal with the discomfort that comes up when you do. You need both. There's no point in having the perfect language if your body goes into full survival mode. 

 18:21

So inside this workshop, we're going to work on finding the language that is honest and grounded and true for you. And we're going to learn to stay connected to that little part that is scared. And we're going to learn how to say what needs to be said without abandoning yourself. 

 18:39

And if this feels like work you're ready for, the link is in the show notes and in my bio, and I would love to see you there. Before I go, I want to leave you with a few questions to gently explore over the next couple of weeks. 

 18:53

I find that the practice of just letting myself sit with a question and telling all my parts and my nervous system, like, it's safe to answer this. I'm not going to judge you. I'm not going to get mad at you. 

 19:06

I just want to know a little bit about what's going on here. That's the spirit in which these questions are offered. So question number one, when conflict begins, what is the first sensation you notice in your body? 

 19:21

Number two, what does your nervous system seem most afraid of in conflict? Number three, after conflict, how long does it take your body to settle and what helps? Number four, if your conflict response is protecting something valuable, what might that be? 

 19:46

Your answers are some really, really great information. Because if you can notice, for example, in answer to question number one, when conflict begins, I immediately just feel sick in my stomach. That points to a way that you can support your body. 

 20:04

If, in answer to question number two, what does your nervous system seem most afraid of in conflict? Well, it's being abandoned. Then that gives you a little bit of information about what your nervous system needs to feel supported. 

 20:17

It needs to know that you will not abandon you. It needs to know that no matter what, you will be there and just feel whatever needs to be felt. If you're answering question number three and you say, oh, it takes my body a day to settle and I need to walk and I need a bath, that points to some beautiful supportive things that you can do for yourself. 

 20:42

And if you say, it takes my body days and I don't really ever settle, it just kind of goes away. That points to a need for more skills and resources so that you can have a different experience. And maybe in response to question number four, if your conflict response is protecting something, what would that be? 

 21:03

It's protecting my relationship. It's protecting my ability to even be in relationship with this person. That's just good to know because what it says is that that young part of you doesn't have any other resources or skills and really wants to keep this relationship. 

 21:23

And right now they're doing it through self-abandonment. Again, really important information to have. Because when we shift from self-judgment into curiosity, that's what creates the space to change and do something different. 

 21:39

I would love to know what came up for you when you answered those questions. DM me, email me. I'd love to hear. And if that workshop sounds like something you're ready to do, I would love to see you there. 

 21:50

Thanks again for listening. Let me know what landed for you in this episode, and I'll see you soon.

Episode 147 - How I Make Sense of the Absolute Bullshit Going on Right Now

We are living through an incredibly intense political, social, and cultural moment, and it’s easy to fall into the despair and overwhelm of it all. In this episode, I’m sharing a framework that helps me make sense of what's happening and hold onto hope. Spiral dynamics explains how humans organize around shared value systems, and what happens when those systems collide and begin to collapse. While these transitions are often destabilizing and painful, what we’re living through is not random–and understanding the pattern offers the reminder that how we choose to show up, care for ourselves, and embody the values we want to see matters. Here’s what I cover:

• The origin of spiral dynamics and how the framework can show up in everyday life

• Why systems resist evolution with the same fear and violence they were established with

• How the framework of spiral dynamics relates to good girl rules and people-pleasing tendencies

• Why nervous system safety and connection matter alongside protest, organizing, and action during times of change

• How rest, pleasure, joy, and community are not distractions, but essential tools for surviving times of massive transition

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:59

I want to explain something that helps me make sense of the intense political and social things that we are seeing play out in the United States, if you live here or around the world.

 01:13

I explained this very poorly in a group coaching session last week with some of the graduates of my Stop People Pleasing program. And so if nothing else, this podcast is for you because it really helps me when I look at this framework called spiral dynamics to see what is happening.

 01:36

And I hope it helps you too, because in a time when there is not a lot of hopeful things in the broader political and social and cultural landscape, this actually does give me some hope in the midst of everything that is so hard and so sad. 

 01:57

Spiral dynamics was developed by a psychologist, Claire Graves, and later expanded on by a guy named Don Beck. And I learned it by listening to and working with Richard Rohr. So let's dive in. Spiral dynamics teaches that human beings organize themselves around shared value systems. 

 02:19

They are deep, they're often unconscious beliefs about things like what keeps us safe, how power should work, what success looks like, and whose lives matter and matter the most. And these value systems don't emerge randomly. 

 02:34

They emerge in response to life's conditions. They change when life's conditions change. When the world becomes more complex, more interconnected or more aware, the old system eventually stops working. 

 02:52

And that might sound like a good thing, but it's actually where things get very, very intense. Let me give you a couple of examples. We can see this when we look just at parenting. When we think about how a lot of us were raised, I'm 52. 

 03:07

If you're younger, it might not apply. But for generations, parenting was organized around obedience. Because I said so, don't talk back. If you didn't comply, it meant you disrespected your parents. 

 03:22

And that kind of made sense, although it wasn't very kind, in a world that valued order, hierarchy, and control. Think about how many systems and how many organizations and communities were organized around order. 

 03:40

Who's in charge? Who's not in charge? Who has power? Who doesn't have power? And controlling the people in that system, right? It begins to make some sense. But then, as psychology and neuroscience and emotional awareness expand, that system started to break down. 

 03:59

I didn't raise my children that way. I wanted some emotional attunement and connection and consent. And I looked at the way that I, even in the beginning years of my parenting, used punishment to control. 

 04:16

And I didn't want to do that anymore. It didn't feel good. But there was also a backlash. You can hear in a lot of circles, you know, kids are too soft. No one respects authority anymore. We've gone too far. 

 04:30

And this isn't like random. It's two value systems colliding. You can see it in work culture. I mean, if you want to go back, one of the clearest examples of spiral dynamics in action throughout history is the Industrial Revolution. 

 04:46

As societies industrialized, a new value system took over, right? One that was focused on efficiency and profit and growth above everything else, even above humans, because humans became labor units. 

 05:03

Time became money and rest became laziness. And this system solved some issues, right? Mass production, economic expansion, and technological progress. But it came at an enormous human cost. People were working like 12 to 16 hours a day. 

 05:23

Children labored in factories. Injury and death were routine. There were no protections. There were no weekends. There were no safety nets. And eventually, the conditions became so extreme that that system could no longer sustain itself. 

 05:38

And that's when resistance emerged. Workers organized. They protested. They demanded limits and safety and dignity. And the system did not respond gently. It responded violently. Police and military were used to break strikes, people who were organizing. 

 05:58

People were jailed, injured, and killed in the name of keeping that system in place. But here is where spiral dynamics teaches us something that I think is important. Systems resist evolution with the same fear and violence that they used to establish themselves. 

 06:21

And yet, because life conditions demanded it, those systems did change. I mean, that's how we got the eight-hour workday and weekends and child labor laws and workplace safety standards. The system didn't collapse, it developed, but at a very big cost to the people who lived during the collision of those two value systems. 

 06:48

You can see it inside relationships too. Many women were raised inside a relational value system that tells us to be a good girl, be agreeable, don't rock the boat. Your job is to maintain harmony. And for a lot of years, that system, because women didn't have equal access to power and resources, kept relationships stable. 

 07:16

But we're not putting up with that anymore. Now women want to be seen. They want to have equal access to all the places where decisions are made. And so they're labeled difficult and rights are given and then taken away by people who don't want us to move to the next level of equality. 

 07:38

So again, you can see the collision of those two value systems there. And this moment feels so intense because transitions between those value systems are always destabilizing. The old way no longer works. 

 07:57

The new one isn't fully formed yet. Those people who are in power cling to that power. People feel afraid. They cling to certainty. They want authority. They look backward to the good old days and how things used to be so much better. 

 08:16

And while it makes sense, it is not easy. We are living in the middle of a global transition, and the middle is always the hardest part. One of the important, and I think this is kind of the most important teaching of spiral dynamics, is this. 

 08:35

You cannot shame or dominate or punish people into a new value system. That just recreates and perpetuates the old one. Evolution happens as people feel safer, when connection replaces isolation, when nervous systems can regulate, and when meaning and joy are allowed alongside marching and protesting and calling centers and doing the things that create the conditions for the new system to come into being. 

 09:11

If you feel crushed by the middle that we are in right now, I am with you. I feel the heaviness and the grief of this moment. And I have so much privilege and I have so such distance from this. There are people who are suffering every single day. 

 09:34

And we have humans who are being kept in camps. And so I want to keep in mind that my suffering is nothing like theirs. And I still suffer. Two things can be true at the same time. You are feeling the heaviness and the weight and the sadness and the grief. 

 09:54

I want to name something explicitly here because it matters to me. If you decide to look into spiral dynamics, you'll find that a lot of people use it in a lot of different ways. There's a wide range of interpretations and applications, and there are critiques of it that I think are not only valid, but are important to name, especially from a feminist or a racial justice perspective. 

 10:18

Spiral dynamics comes out of Western psychology, which carries kind of its own inherent set of values and assumptions. And one of those assumptions is the tendency to rank development as good development or bad development, better development, right? 

 10:35

Higher or lower. And I don't believe that that holds true across the board, especially just looking through a Western lens. One of the clearest examples of this is that Indigenous ways of knowing, deep relationship to the earth, embodiment, community, and interdependence, those ways of living and organizing have existed for centuries. 

 10:57

They're not new and they are not underdeveloped, right? In many ways, they hold wisdom that our kind of dominant Western way of thinking about it are only now realizing we desperately need and are so valuable. 

 11:13

So spiral dynamics through a Western lens can be used to dismiss or minimize less developed values as it gets defined there because they don't fit that really kind of narrow definition of what progress should look like. 

 11:31

That is not how I'm using spiral dynamics or how I find it to be helpful. I find it helpful as a pattern recognition tool, a way to understand that we are living in an intense moment of collision of value systems. 

 11:48

I don't use it to rank people or cultures. I don't use it to claim moral superiority. And I absolutely am not going to use it to bypass or to excuse harm. Because this transition time that we're living in is not abstract. 

 12:06

It's the death of violent systems of extraction and power, racist, misogynist, deeply entrenched systems that are trying to hang on and survive and to keep us under control. And real people are paying the price for our resistance to those systems. 

 12:28

Black and brown people around the world have and are bearing the brunt of this violence as they have for generations. And many white allies, people are putting their bodies, their safety, and their privilege on the line as well. 

 12:44

I don't want any framework, spiral dynamics or otherwise, to tidy this up or to make it sound spiritually neat. What we are living through is not clean or gentle. There is real hurt, real terror, real grief, and real loss happening right now. 

 13:04

So the way that I hold spiral dynamics is this. It's not an excuse. It's not a bypass. It's not a way to downplay suffering. It's a way to see a pattern clearly. And to describe that clash of values also helps me decide how I want to position myself inside of it. 

 13:24

Because as I embody the values that I want to see take root in the world, care, connection, dignity, mutuality. I help that transition. I'm a part of bringing that transition about. As I take care of myself and my community, I embody what I want to see in the world. 

 13:49

And as I stay human in the face of these dehumanizing systems, I help the transition. And what I feel like it does is it helps me be very clear-eyed about what I want to be doing and how important it is that even in the midst of all of this chaotic terror, that I hold on to the values of rest and pleasure and play and joy, because that is what I want to see more of in the world. 

 14:22

This framework and no framework should be used in a way that erases the pain of the moment. But I hope it offers some context and a way to understand what's happening and to ask ourselves, if we want to, the important question of, you know, given what we are living through, what role do I want to play? 

 14:43

What values do I want to use my life to embody and to bring more of into the world? Because it's what I want everyone to have. So while I hope that this explanation of spiral dynamics is helpful, it's very brief. 

 15:00

I didn't mean to go into a lot of description. You can look it up and read more if you're interested. My hope is that you can take from this episode two things. Number one, systems of values are colliding and the old one is collapsing and they collapse in the same violent manner in which they lived. 

 15:22

And number two, this is why rest and pleasure and laughter and community and care and dancing and joyful existence and finding beauty. They're not distractions. They are essential because this is how humans survive these kinds of transitions. 

 15:45

So hug someone, care for someone, care for yourself. There aren't going to be like a bunch of breathing exercises that are going to make this go away. It is going to help, like for sure, breathe and drink water and touch some grass and hug your pet. 

 16:06

But I hope that being clear-eyed about what is happening gives us some stamina, gives us some sturdiness, and a little bit more resilience because each of us has the opportunity to act within our sphere, to act within our privilege, to act within our limitations, and those are different for everyone, to help each other through this moment. 

 16:34

And that's what I hope this podcast episode offers you. A little bit of explanation, my love and my respect, and a reminder. Rest, laugh, get together with people that you love because that's how we're going to get through this. 

 16:54

I'll see you next week.

Episode 146 - Five Questions I’m Asking This Year

Is your social media feed overflowing with New Year’s resolutions and tips to optimize your life? This mindset can feel overwhelming, so instead of pushing for the “perfect” 2026, I’m offering something else in this episode: five questions I return to again and again to recalibrate my relationship with myself. These questions aren’t about productivity or self-improvement. They’re an invitation to unlearn good girl conditioning, step out of self-abandonment, and choose a way of living that actually feels like yours. Here’s what I cover:

• How women’s socialization continues to shape our choices and behaviors

• What passivity actually looks like when your desires and preferences go unspoken

• Why overworking isn’t just physical labor, but emotional, relational, and mental labor too

• How self-abandonment is at the core of people pleasing and putting yourself last

• Why joy, fun, and play can be nourishment instead of something you earn after work

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching.

See you inside!

Transcript

00:58

Happy New Year, friends. I'm still not quite sure what time is going as fast as it is going, but here we are, January 5th. That's the day I'm recording this. And I hope you had in all of your holidaying and celebrating some rest and some connection and some joy. 

 01:17

If your social media feed is anything like mine is right now, it is full of New Year's resolution-y stuff, right? How to craft the perfect 2026 with all the amazing things you're going to change and become and do and stop and start. 

 01:36

And I just, I have never identified less with this kind of like optimization mindset that we seem to be in. And I think largely it's because I'm a 52-year-old woman who's in perimenopause, like so many of you. 

 01:58

I'm also struggling every day with the heaviness of living in the political chaos and the slide into fascism that is life in the United States right now. It is a lot. And I've never felt more, first of all, certain that we are doing something wrong with our relentless march toward optimizing every single part of our lives. 

 02:30

And I've just never felt less drawn to the big goals kind of genre of life. Because in the past, I would have absolutely jumped on the goal setting bandwagon, outlined my 17-point plan for major changes I was going to implement that I was totally overwhelmed by the 1st of February and totally abandoned. 

 02:56

So I know the drill and I know that goal setting is kind of woven into so many parts of our lives. And I just, I don't want it this year. I'm tired. I'm like tired on a new level of weariness that comes from, I think, living with all the pressures. 

 03:21

And I mentioned the aforementioned, you know, political upheaval and chaos. And so I want to share something with you that I do for myself a lot. I have five questions that I return to over and over again as a way of just calibrating in big ways and small ways how I feel about myself and my life and the connection that I feel toward myself or the lack of it. 

 03:50

And I really hope to offer you these five simple questions that have nothing to do with productivity or self-optimization. They're just questions meant to free you, to free up some part of you, to free up old ways of thinking, to unlearn ways that we've been taught that we should be in the world, and to identify ways in which or places where our socialization is still popping up. 

 04:23

Because women are overly socialized to be agreeable instead of honest. We are socialized to be useful instead of fulfilled or satisfied. We are programmed to be endlessly resilient instead of supported and self-sacrificing instead of honoring ourselves. 

 04:46

And so these questions, fairly simple. I'm going to offer them to you in several different ways. It's more of like a corrective exercise than a big goal setting exercise. You'll see what I mean. For each of the questions, I'm just going to ask it. 

 05:02

I'm going to give you a little bit of context, why it matters, what usually gets in the way of us answering it and then bringing that answer into our daily lives in a really useful way. And then you can take what is valuable to you, leave the rest. 

 05:19

I'm really a fan of just taking one little thing that lands or that resonates or that feels useful and just leaving everything else. You do not have to answer all these questions. That is not the point. 

 05:31

It's to take one or two things and bring it into your daily life in whatever way feels really meaningful to you. So question number one, where do I fall into passivity? And there's a couple other ways that you could ask this of yourself as well. 

 05:50

Number one, where do I stay quiet in order to keep things like running smoothly? Where do I have an opinion that I'm not sharing? Or where am I waiting for someone else to decide for me? Because for me, passivity is kind of what I have relabeled or I used to relabel or mislabel, that's better said, as easygoing or low maintenance or nice. 

 06:20

But relationally, passivity is where resentment grows. Women don't name preferences, limits, or desires. We were taught that those are how we are too much or too big or too dramatic. And when we aren't able to name what we want, relationships become unbalanced and intimacy and honesty can't be there because we're not saying what we actually want. 

 06:49

Passivity is, it's like the absence of desire. It's the absence of preference. It's the absence of this is what I want. And we need to see the places where we are being passive to keep the peace. Often that's what we were taught to do in the homes we grew up in. 

 07:11

Because passivity as an adult means you are not showing up in the full way that you deserve in your own life. We spend so much time being compliant and performing what we think other people want that we slide into these passive roles where we just go along to get along. 

 07:35

And that's something that I want to see in my own life because it's where I can take a step into sharing something that I want, sharing something that matters to me, having a boundary or some other kind of limitation that would make my life better. 

 07:50

So if any of that resonates or matters or your curiosity gets piqued, that's a great question to ask yourself. Where am I falling into passivity? Question number two, where am I overworking? This question matters a lot because overworking isn't just about the physical labor that we do. 

 08:11

It's about the emotional labor. It's about the relational labor. It's about the mental labor that we do oftentimes to earn love, to avoid conflict, to prove that we are worthy or worthwhile, and to prevent other people from being disappointed in us. 

 08:29

It is self-abandonment that is dressed up as responsibility. And for a lot of my super ambitious women out there, that ambition, if you kind of peel back that layer of ambition underneath is trying to earn love, belonging, the good opinion of other people. 

 08:52

And so overworking or seeing where you are overworking is just a moment to pause and say, am I getting out of this overworking situation something that is valuable for me? Or am I putting in more than is my share? 

 09:12

Am I taking care of things that are not my responsibility? Women are so expected to do invisible labor, emotional tracking, planning, remembering. And we are so praised for our endurance and the way that we keep showing up over and over and over again in these really highly resilient, productive, and totally unsustainable ways. 

 09:34

And so if this question, where am I overworking, creates some curiosity for you, here's some other ways that you might ask it. Where am I doing more than my share? What am I carrying that isn't actually mine? 

 09:53

Where am I exhausted but still really pushing hard? Question number three. Where am I abandoning myself? This question really matters because self-abandonment is the core of people pleasing. It is saying I matter less than anything going on outside of me that somebody else wants or needs or wants me to do for them. 

 10:22

So this happens when we consistently override our own intuition. We override our boundaries or don't have any. We don't feel our own emotions and we don't pay attention to the signals from our body about what we like, what we want, what we don't want. 

 10:43

And for the good girls out there, right, this is lesson number one that we learned. We learned that what we think, what we feel, what we want to have happen is secondary to what everybody else wants. 

 10:57

And so unlearning that, unlearning that disconnection takes some energy and some focus. There are some other ways that you might ask this to help you see, where am I self-abandoning? You might ask yourself, where am I saying yes when my body says no? 

 11:23

Where am I ignoring my own discomfort? Is there something that I'm tolerating in my life that I don't want to tolerate anymore? Because each of those questions gets at the heart of how we are trained to attune to everyone else outwardly and not to attune to ourselves inwardly. 

 11:45

So this is how we unlearn behavior. Question number four, where can I honor myself and my needs better? This is one of my favorite questions because it's like a reclamation question. This is the question I go to when I don't feel like myself, when I feel like I'm doing too many things for other people or where I'm not connected enough to myself. 

 12:14

Because for me, when I'm not honoring myself, that's when I feel burnout and resentment and withdrawal. And I feel like my emotions are kind of out of control. Women's needs are often framed as burdensome. 

 12:29

Many women are praised for not needing, right? You're such an easygoing person. You're so easy to get along with. And what that does is it creates this false binary in our mind where I can't take care of myself if I'm taking care of other people. 

 12:46

Like it's either or either they get care or I get care. And that can feel selfish. So really looking at the answer to this question helps us see that it's not a binary. It helps us step into our full and whole personhood, deserving of the same kind of support and love that we so freely give other people. 

 13:09

You can also ask, what do I need more of right now? Or what would support actually look like for me? If I trusted my needs, what would change? Those are some other ways to ask that so you can get at some good answers for yourself. 

 13:27

Last one, this is a big focus for me this year. And it's the first time that I've kind of brought this question into the list that I regularly ask myself. And it is this. Question number five, where do I need more joy, fun, or play? 

 13:44

This question matters because joy isn't frivolous. Play isn't immature. And fun is so necessary to balance out and to give ourselves the nervous system care that the times we are living in demand right now. 

 14:04

Joy helps restore our creativity, our desire, our aliveness, our imagination, all of the things that really make life worth living. And they are especially important right now in the climate that we're in. 

 14:22

Not just politically, but medically, right? Perimenopause and having to support other people and wanting to still build relationships of trust and joy with others means we need to give ourselves joy and play and fun. 

 14:39

It's not a reward. It's nourishment. So many of us learned that the most important thing you can do with your time is work. And if there's any time left over, then maybe you can have a little bit of joy or fun or play. 

 14:52

But what I want to do and what I am doing this year for myself is really centering joy, fun, and play. So if you are curious about how you might bring a little bit more of that into your life, here's some other ways you could ask. 

 15:08

What lights me up that I've been postponing? When was the last time I felt playful? What was I doing? What was it like to get some input there? And what feels like relief? Because sometimes relief can lead to fun or play or joy. 

 15:27

For me, what really feels joyful is listening to music and dancing, spending time with people one-on-one where I can have a really nourishing conversation. For you, the answers might be different, but they are so important. 

 15:44

As I end here, I just want to reiterate, you don't need to answer all of these questions. They are offered to you in the spirit of just what sparks some curiosity? What sparks some, maybe some annoyance or some guilt or some other type of emotion that makes you want to spend a little more time with these questions? 

 16:06

Let your brain have these questions as something to just mull over. And then whatever comes up, great. And then if something useful comes up, you can decide what to do with that. And if there isn't anything useful in that question, let it go and take what really feels like a fit. 

 16:23

Because again, if we are learning to trust our bodies and trust our intuition, the place to start is with these questions. Have a great week. I'll see you soon.

Episode 145 - Best Of: How To Have Your Own Back

Learning to have my own back is the most powerful thing I’ve ever done for myself, which is why I’m bringing back this essential episode as we head into the new year. Many women internalize their mistakes, leading to a spiral of shameful thoughts that can be very draining. But how can we shut that down? If we bully ourselves, then we're not safe with ourselves, and we're not safe anywhere. You deserve that essential safety. In this episode, I'll help you identify the bullying voice in your head and shut it down. Here’s what I cover:

• How to recognize the internal bully in your own voice and why certain “questions” are actually accusations

• Why being unsafe with yourself creates shame spirals that drain hours of your time and energy

• A powerful reframe using your younger self to stop self-bullying before it takes over

• Two practical ways to shut down the brain bully: the hard pass and loving engagement

• How having your own back makes it possible to take risks, try new things, and live with more freedom

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

If I only ever do two podcast episodes, I would say that this is one of the most important ones. The other one is about wanting. And I did that last week. And so this week, I really wanted to dive into the other really essential tool. 

 01:22

Maybe not even a tool, more of like a practice that has made the biggest difference in my own life. And if I could help women, people socialized as women, do only two things, it would be these two things. 

 01:36

Number one, connect to their wanting. Listen to the last episode. And number two, to have their own back. Learning to have my own back has been the single most powerful thing I have ever done for myself. 

 01:54

And it's a process and a practice that I want to break down for you because I think it unlocks so much potential in your life. Now, I think in broad terms, there's always exceptions. Many women that I speak to internalize mistakes and they make it about themselves and their character. 

 02:22

And when I ask women to tell me about their internal chatter and when I think back to my own internal chatter, it always sounded something like this. You always do this. What is the matter with you? Why can't you get this right? 

 02:38

You're so lazy, unreliable, et cetera, et cetera. What's wrong with you? And the problem is that, well, there's two problems. First of all, those aren't really questions. Those are accusations and they have no good answer. 

 02:58

And number two, what they do is they create just a spiral of shame and guilt and self-disgust that ends up taking hours and hours and hours of your time, your mental headspace and your energy. So what I want to talk about today is how you shut that down, because this is what I know to be true. 

 03:28

Women who beat themselves up have no place that is truly safe. I'll say that again. If you're not safe with you, if you're not safe with your own inter in your own internal world in your body, then you're not safe anywhere. 

 03:47

And so if you are the one bullying you, then nowhere is safe. And the price of not having that essential safety with yourself is huge. And I'll talk specifically about why that is in a minute. But I have seen it over and over and over again that when a woman can be her own safe space by having her own back, by refusing to bully herself, then she has a lot more options than a woman who has not yet learned how to do that. 

 04:19

So that's what I want to talk about. I want to offer you two ways to shut off the internal bully. But first, I want you to just think, how do you bully yourself? I gave you an example, some sentences that run around in my head, but I want you to just think, what is your internal chatter like when you don't get something right or when something doesn't turn out the way you want it to turn out? 

 04:49

Are you berating yourself, doubting yourself, second guessing, criticizing, judging, really coming at yourself? How? Because it's important to identify the bullying voice in your head for what it is, really a bully. 

 05:09

When you have that in your mind, I want to ask you a question. How would you behave if someone you loved was on the receiving end of those sentences? So for example, let's say I'm at the park with my daughter and she's trying to swing, pumping her legs, not going anywhere. 

 05:33

And some stranger says to her, what's the matter with you? Why can't you get that right? Like, what would I do? I just got like full body chills, even just imagining her being on the receiving end of that. 

 05:46

I would step in so fast and pop that shit off. There was no way I would allow someone to speak to my child that way. Or think about this. Imagine yourself as like a five, six, seven, eight-year-old, a child. 

 06:07

Imagine someone speaking to that little version of you the same way. Would you allow it? One of the things that I do is I keep a picture of myself as a little girl on my desk to remind me. I would never put up with someone speaking to her the way that I have sometimes put up with allowing myself to speak to me. 

 06:36

That's where it gets a little tricky. Because we speak to ourselves in our own voice, in our head, like when I'm thinking my thoughts in my head, they're in my own voice. And so when I'm asking myself those awful question, what's the matter with you? 

 06:53

Why can't you get this right? It's, I hear it as me speaking to me. If it was some like, you know, nefarious Darth Vader voice, then I think it would be easier to pick up on. But one of the first things we have to do is to catch it, to catch our own voice in our heads, bullying ourselves. 

 07:14

And then we have to stop it, either by imagining it happening to someone you love or a littler version of you. I want to give you two different ways to engage with this bully to stop it. Number one, I call it the hard pass, and it is exactly what it sounds like. 

 07:35

It is a no, a firm, unequivocal no. So the bullying voice starts up and sometimes it feels so good to just say that powerful, no, we are not doing this. I won't do it. No one speaks to me that way, not even me. 

 07:58

No, this is not happening. And then you have to move your body. Get up and walk around your house. Shake your arms. Stand up. But that movement of your body helps reset. So the bullying voice starts up. 

 08:15

If the hard pass sounds really good to you, it feels really powerful and really positive. Then you say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I will not engage in bullying. Nobody bullies me, not even me. And then get up and move your body. 

 08:37

I was doing this for a while. And my husband said to me, like, do you know you talk to yourself a lot? And I said, yeah, I, that's on purpose because I'm really trying to stop this behavior. So the first way is called the hard pass. 

 08:53

It's that strong, powerful no, no, no, no. The second is called loving engagement. And loving engagement is exactly how it sounds. Maybe it starts with a deep breath. I know. Oh, okay. Yeah. Here's that voice again. 

 09:16

Let's take some deep breaths. This makes sense that we're doing this. We've done this for a long time, but we are not going to do it today. We're not going to do it. Nope. Come on. And then you get up and move your body. 

 09:33

So notice that you end up in the same place. There is some way to cut the behavior off, either the hard pass no or the loving engagement, more gentle version. Then you move your body and you cut it off. 

 09:49

You stop the behavior. The reason that I love these two ways of engaging with the bully is because it gives you the option to be powerful and definitive when you want or loving and definitive. Either way, the answer is no. 

 10:09

And it just takes some practice to get to know yourself enough to know which one is going to feel better in the moment. I truly believe it is essential to stop the bullying so that you can then, when you're not activated with a lot of shame and guilt, you can look at why it's happening without feeling flooded by all of those emotions that really aren't helpful. 

 10:38

When you are looking at behavior that you want to change and you're feeling guilty and flooded and full of shame, all of your time and energy and effort gets sucked up in criticizing and self-doubting and blaming and second guessing and doing all of those things rather than just solving the problem. 

 10:59

So the reason that this is so essential is that when you can cut off the bullying, then you can actually just look at the behavior or the thing that happened and ask yourself some good questions about it. 

 11:16

Like, is there something here that I should be different or should I should be doing differently? Is there something here that I want to change? Whatever is happening in the moment isn't about me and my character anymore. 

 11:31

Maybe there is a change that I'd like to make. But I can't make the change if I'm so consumed by the shame and the guilt that I just don't have any energy left to really evaluate, okay, so this didn't go the way I wanted. 

 11:47

Is there actually a change that I want to make that would be positive for me? One of the biggest benefits of learning to have your own back and cut off that bullying behavior is that now you can handle trying new things and putting yourself out there and taking some risks because all you have to feel is the fear of doing something new. 

 12:14

And it's never about beating yourself up for not getting it right. Let me give you an example. I meet with a small group of coaches who are starting their new business and we talk a lot about, you know, doing things that scare us and doing things that are new for us. 

 12:33

And I've been coaching and a business owner long enough that some of those new things don't scare me quite as much. But I decided to do something that would scare me, like terrify me, not just scare me, terrify me. 

 12:46

And that was to sing for them. I have always wanted to take singing lessons, and I am right now. I've always wanted to be able to sing comfortably in front of other people. Not quite there yet. But I knew that I wanted to sing for them, not only because it would be growth for me, but because I could handle feeling the fear of singing with total confidence that no matter what happened, I would not beat myself up at all, 

 13:21

even a little bit. And here's what happened. I got so emotional during the song that I cried through half of it. I squeaked out some other lyrics here and there, but I was just so terrified and so afraid that I probably cried through 70% of the song. 

 13:43

And I lived. And in the end, I was so proud of myself for doing something that terrified me. I didn't even think about beating myself up for not doing a good job technically singing. It didn't even cross my mind. 

 14:01

I could just do the thing that was terrifying because I had full confidence that I would not criticize or judge myself or my performance at all. I have the safety with myself to just try something new, knowing that I might get it wrong. 

 14:23

It might not turn out the way I want it to, but I'm going to be able to learn from that. So it puts me in this space where I can really almost eliminate the idea of failing, because failing means that I tried something and it didn't go the way I want. 

 14:41

And that's the end of it. And I feel terrible about it. Now, I really like to think of it as I'm either like winning, it's going exactly the way I want, or it's a chance for me to learn. Because if it doesn't go the way I want, I am totally going to feel the frustration, the disappointment, the sadness, all of those normal human emotions. 

 15:06

But I am not going to add any additional criticism or judgment at all. I'll just feel sad, feel disappointed. And then I can ask myself, like, how can what worked here? What didn't work so well? And what can I do differently? 

 15:25

And then I can try it again because none of my time is consumed with the shame and guilt spiral of judgment and criticism. The other really beautiful thing that happens when you learn to have your own back is that when things not working out are never about your character, then other people start to get the same generous interpretation. 

 15:58

Brene Brown and Dr. Becky, who are two of my favorite people to listen to, they both talk about this most generous interpretation. And when I'm giving myself the most generous interpretation, meaning it's never about my character, but it might be about some actions that I want to do differently, then I can give that to other people as well. 

 16:21

This has made a huge difference in my relationships with my children and my husband. I think I used to think, I know I used to think, that they were doing things to me or that they were doing things on purpose. 

 16:37

It felt like I was constantly being victimized. This sounds so dramatic now, but I was constantly being victimized by something that they were doing to me. And I would get upset and there was a lot of blame and a lot of sorting through the judgment and the criticism. 

 16:56

And when I am the recipient of my own most generous interpretation, now I can offer it to them as well. And I truly believe that they're doing their best because I believe I'm doing my best. That doesn't mean things don't work out. 

 17:16

Actually, what I mean to say is that doesn't mean that things always go perfectly. Things go not perfectly quite a lot because that just seems to be the human experience. But when things don't go the way I plan, we can just feel sad or disappointed or even frustrated, overwhelmed, fearful. 

 17:36

We can just feel the emotion. And there doesn't have to be a lot of the shame and blame and guilt piled on top of that. It's also increased my capacity to sit with the times that I disappoint other people. 

 17:55

Now, this can be deeply uncomfortable because we all, we don't like it when we disappoint other people. We are programmed to want to belong in groups, to want acceptance and friendship and connection. 

 18:08

And when we disappoint someone, those are threatened. But when I have disappointed people, my close relationships, my dear friends, my family, and I don't make it about myself, meaning I don't call myself a terrible mother or a terrible wife or a terrible friend. 

 18:29

I can just look at the actions, what happened and solve for that and not try to make it about me as the problem, my character. It just feels so much cleaner. I can just look at the circumstances, the facts of what happened, the actions that I did or didn't take, and evaluate it. 

 18:55

What worked? What didn't work? What would I do differently? And it's not about me. A huge gift of this practice of having my own back is time. When I ask women to tell me how much time they spend in their heads bullying themselves, criticizing, second guessing, doubting, all of those behaviors. 

 19:23

Most of them say it's about three to five hours a day. I mean, that just, it just blows my mind. Ruminating about past things that you didn't get right, worrying about future situations that you're concerned about, replaying events, wishing I had said that, wishing I had done that, berating myself for not knowing, not doing certain things. 

 19:47

Yeah, three to five hours a day. And even just on the low end, let's just take three hours a day. That's 21 hours a week times 52 weeks a year. That's 1,092 hours a year on the low end that women's brains are tied up with this kind of bullying, self-critical behavior. 

 20:13

No wonder we're so tired. Our bodies might be doing something else. You know, we're driving carpool or going to work or doing what we do, but internally, we are just browbeating ourselves for hours and hours. 

 20:27

And when you learn to stop, you get that time and brain space back. And you get it to do whatever you want with. You want to read a book? Fantastic. You want to start a new company? Fantastic. Either way, that part doesn't matter so much to me. 

 20:43

What matters is that your time, which is the one thing we cannot get more of, you get your time back. That's a huge benefit of shutting down the brain bully and learning to have your own back. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode. 

 21:04

I want to interrupt for just a second and invite you to join me on Facebook in my free group called Stop People Pleasing. It's where I spend time each week answering questions, sharing my work, announcing upcoming workshops, and coaching the members to stop people pleasing. 

 21:24

You can join by using the link in the show notes or check the link in my Instagram bio. I'd love to have you. See you there. This is really important to me. It is so important that it's something that I teach in every single one-to-one coaching relationship that I have. 

 21:46

And I teach it in the Stop People Pleasing group program that I run. And here's why it's so essential. In the group program, we have five challenges. Number one, to tell the truth. People pleasers are liars. 

 22:03

When we don't feel like we can be honest about why we really don't want to do something, we lie. We make up excuses. So one of the first challenges is to tell the truth. Another challenge is to ask for something. 

 22:18

People pleasers, man, we have a hard time asking for what we want and need because we've been taught that we shouldn't inconvenience anyone or that if we want something, we need to have really, really, really, really, really good reasons for wanting it. 

 22:29

And we should be able to justify it. Just wanting it is not enough. And so that's why one of the challenges is to ask for something that we want. Another challenge is to say no to something. Another challenge is to disappoint someone. 

 22:45

That's a good one. Another challenge is to learn how to really care for yourself. So those five challenges all happen in my 16-week group program, Stop People Pleasing. And in order for them to happen, you have to have your own back. 

 23:04

Imagine you tell someone the truth, like, I'm just not really interested in that. Thank you. Ooh, that might bring on a wash of shame and guilt. And I'm a bad friend. I'm a bad mom. But we learn to shut that off so we can just feel the fear of disappointing someone without the shame and guilt. 

 23:26

Saying no is the same thing. Disappointing someone. Often these are very similar challenges. I remember when I first understood that this was essential. From time to time, I used plant medicine as a way to help me really get insight into myself and my thinking. 

 23:50

And I was having an afternoon on that type of a journey and I was laying on the couch. And I don't know, it was probably, I don't know, three or four months prior to that. I used to work for a coaching certification company where I would meet weekly with coaches, with CLAP, students who wanted to become coaches to teach them the art and the technique of coaching. 

 24:20

And I had missed a class. It was, I mean, I was so, I was so deeply embarrassed and ashamed. I felt so guilty. And I browbeat myself for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. I would lay down at night. 

 24:37

Gosh, what is the matter with you? Why didn't you get the, you should have done that. You should have known. You should have checked. That went on for weeks. Three or four months later, I was having this plant medicine experience. 

 24:48

I was laying on the couch, just really wanting to be introspective and spend some time with myself and my own thoughts. And I sensed in my body some fear. And so I just asked, hey, what's that fear about? 

 25:04

What's going on? What's the matter? And my body answered, it's you. We're afraid of you. You are so, it's making me emotional to remember. You are so mean to us when we don't get it right. You are just, you are relentless in the way that you terrorize and browbeat and punish us. 

 25:37

That's why we're afraid. And in that moment, that was the hard pass for me. I just decided I will never, ever, ever, ever do that again. I will never take what is my best effort. Even the day that I didn't show up for that class, I was doing my best. 

 25:59

I didn't make the decision that morning, you know, I'm just going to half ass this thing. Not even saying that that's wrong, but I didn't do that that morning. It was my best. And I took a mistake and turned it into a weapon over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. 

 26:19

And in that moment, when I felt the fear that I had created in my own body, I knew that I had to stop because if I wasn't safe with me, I knew that I wasn't safe anywhere. So if this is a behavior that you are ready to stop, first of all, yes, your life is going to change. 

 26:48

And I offer you those two tools, the hard pass and loving engagement, and the idea that this is a practice. It is something that I did not get good at overnight, even though I felt such a strong impulse and learned such a deeply valuable lesson that day. 

 27:08

It was a practice of catching it and cutting it off and catching it and cutting it off and catching it and lovingly saying, I know, I know, we're getting better. We're doing better. This is something we've done for a long time. 

 27:22

It's going to take a while to fully resolve, but I did it over and over again. And now here's what I know to be true. I can do things that terrify me, like sing in front of other people. And all I have to feel is the negative emotion that is normal for the human experience, fear, right? 

 27:48

Fear of being judged, fear of, yeah, I had all of that, but I don't, I know that I will never judge myself. It has cleaned up all of the judgment and victimization that I felt in other relationships with people who were close to me, where I'm able to just disappoint people and feel that disappointment with them and not add any other self-judgment on top of it. 

 28:18

Women who are their own safe place have an incredible opportunity, a powerful place from which to change their own lives. They can experiment with different behaviors that are closely connected to their wanting because they know that they will have their own back. 

 28:42

So let me know how this works for you. When you try the hard pass, how does it go? When you try loving engagement. And if this is something where you want to have a consultation with me, I would love to talk to you about not only how this work is going for you, but how I could be helpful. 

 29:02

You can sign up for a consult using the button on my, and any of my social media bios. There's a link tree there that has the schedule a consult button or just through my website. But my goal in releasing this podcast episode is that you have the tools to practice it on your own to make this powerful change in your life. 

 29:25

And I promise you this, if you will stick with it, things will look radically different. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Episode 144 - Best Of: Too Much and Not Enough

This week, I’m bringing back one of the most meaningful and widely listened-to episodes of the podcast. The patriarchal, capitalist, Western way of life imposes certain values and expectations on the way women think, feel, and choose to live. When we fail to meet these expectations, we can often feel lackluster or unsatisfied. Even if we do attain these expectations, there is always another critique looming about the deficit in our lives. In this episode, we will discuss how perfectionism is a manifestation of these societal pressures, and explore ways to shift our mindset to focus on being better, rather than perfect. Here’s what I cover:

• The importance of celebrating our daily small wins rather than fixating on what we could do better

• How the word “better” becomes an invisible authority that keeps women stuck and self-doubting

• Why women are taught not to let emotional labor, grief, or inner work count as real success

• How it's possible to feel accomplished in this society by doing things that bring us joy and make us feel whole

• A simple practice for letting accomplishments land in the body instead of dismissing them

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

Okay, I'm trying something today. This is going to be a walking podcast. Don't even know which number it is. I'll figure that out later. But I sometimes forget that I have been raised in a patriarchal Western capitalist society that has placed its values on me and its expectations on me. 

 01:28

And because I've just lived with them for so long, I mean, I'll be 50 this year, 2023. I have, let's say that, you know, my awareness came online around two or three. It's like 47 years of living with the expectations of a woman in a patriarchal capitalist Western model way of life. 

 01:55

And one of the things that is the most invisible to women is the expectations that have been put on them. There's always these expectations and funny enough, we never meet them. You should just be a little bit skinnier, a little bit prettier. 

 02:18

You should work a little harder. You should help a few more people. You should be a little more efficient. You should be a little bit smarter. You should use your time a little more wisely. You should be a little more productive or a lot, right? 

 02:35

So little and a lot. It doesn't really matter. The point is, there are these expectations that we kind of carry around with us. They're invisible, but they're the context in which we live so much of our lives. 

 02:52

And for a lot of us, this shows up as perfect. Like I need to be perfect. My experience isn't necessarily with the word perfect, but it's with the word better. You should be better. And better is this kind of hazy, really undefined thing. 

 03:12

Like when I ask myself, well, okay, what would better look like? A lot of times I don't have a very specific answer for what better would look like, but it's just this constant companion looming with this kind of authority in my life. 

 03:34

And I catch it sometimes, other times I don't. And what precipitated this whole podcast and episode and this thinking is whenever I go to post something online, I'm aware that it is going to be looked at by people I don't know, maybe people who know more than me, maybe people who are just writing right. 

 03:58

Like I know people are going to look at it. And I always think, you know what? I'll post this idea or this thought or this experience. I'll post it when it's better. I just need to make it better, just a little bit better. 

 04:16

And again, better doesn't have like a real specific definition, but sometimes I think, you know, I just need to sit on this for a little while. I just need to make sure that it's really right so that nobody disagrees with me. 

 04:33

Nobody thinks I'm wrong. Nobody challenges me. Nobody has a problem with what I said. Like there's some place where we can reach as women, either in our posts or in our bodies, in the way we mother, in the way we work, in the way we partner, that will be unassailable, unimpeachable, where we will finally be right. 

 05:03

And so a lot of us, me included, this is a podcast about me. This is a podcast about my brain. Because my brain is the same as yours. If you're also a woman who has been raised in a patriarchal Western capitalist society, there's this constant expectation that something should be more. 

 05:28

More than what we have. Bigger, better, skinnier, lesser, you know, whatever the words are. We're not meeting the expectation. And so what ends up happening is we don't do anything. We don't post. We don't show up. 

 05:44

We don't take up space. We don't say what's on our mind. We don't. We don't live into us. We don't live into what lights us up. We don't have the experience of feeling satisfied. Satisfaction. It's so elusive for women because we live in that space of expectations that we're never going to reach. 

 06:24

And let's say for some reason we are able to attain the whatever perfect body. There's always somewhere else where we should be trying harder. Okay, fine. You now work out the perfect amount for a woman to work out. 

 06:42

What about your finances? What about your intelligence? What about your mothering or partnering or whatever skills? There's this constant deficit that we carry around. So here's what I want you to do. 

 06:59

This will not be hard at all. I want you to think right now of five things that you could be doing more of, that you could be doing better. It's like they don't even, they're right there. For me, I could be healthier. 

 07:17

I could stop eating sugar. I, because that's bad, right? I don't really think sugar is bad, by the way. I could be working out more consistently. I could be reading better books. I could stop watching, you know, so much TV at night. 

 07:34

I could be running my business in a better way. I could be keep, oh, definitely keeping like better track of my finances. See, there's like, I don't even count. What's that? 10? Every single one of us always has that list pretty much at our fingertips. 

 07:52

Okay, now we're going to try the opposite. I want you to tell me, think about it right now, about 10 things. It's not going to do 10. That's too many. Let's do five things that you are doing really, really well. 

 08:11

Can you think of five things? I'm going to try it. Okay. I'm doing really well keeping my commitment to myself about my Pilates class that I signed up for. I've gone once, but I'm going to count it, right? 

 08:28

Because again, when you never are allowed to meet the standard, going one time to a Pilates class doesn't count. You have to go, you have to go, I don't know how many times would I have to go for it to really count as like success. 

 08:44

And then my brain says 10, right? So after 10 times, I would get to count it as success. And what I'm saying right now is, no, I've gone once and that counts a success. Okay, so that's one thing I'm doing well. 

 08:59

Doing a really good job walking my dog. I'm out on a walk right now. Okay, I'm doing really good sitting with some sadness and grief that is related to some events. My grandma passed away, father-in-law passed away, both in the month of December. 

 09:18

And even when I said that, I just get this grief that comes up. But I'm really good at just allowing it to be there. I don't have to fix it. I'm really good at understanding that that grief is because I loved him so much. 

 09:45

So much better at sitting with uncomfortable feelings. I've also been really good at working out some complicated feelings in a friendship that's really important to me lately. Okay, it's taking my brain so much more time to come up with what I'm good at. 

 10:11

And when I asked my brain what I need to be better at, it was right there. If your brain did the same, welcome to brains, women's brains, in Western patriarchal capitalist societies. Something wrong with you. 

 10:28

It's we have just been overly focused on where we should get better. And the rewards for getting close to the expectations of capitalist Western patriarchal societies are big. I mean, have you ever lost weight and people just compliment you up one side and down the other? 

 10:53

Of course, it's a physical outside thing that they can see. But also, do they congratulate you? Or do you congratulate yourself? That's a better question. When you do something hard, like sit with your negative emotions. 

 11:09

We don't let that count. So on the one hand, there's these standards that we never meet. And then when we make a little progress in the direction of either meeting a standard that we choose on purpose or that is important to us or that for whatever reasons we just decide we want to meet, we don't let it count. 

 11:34

Like my one Pilates class. It only counts after 10 classes. So think right now, where is an area of your life that you can let it count? That you can let whatever small, even as I say that, it's so shitty to diminish whatever movement you have made, even if you think it's small. 

 12:06

I don't think one Pilates class is small, but I think there are people out there who would. Where can I let my movement in a direction that I choose for myself count? Okay, do you have something? Because here's what I want you to do. 

 12:26

I want you to think about that thing that you have done. I'm going to think about my one Pilates class. It felt so good to go. It was hard. I've never done Pilates before. But I did it. And when I left, I felt like the fucking queen of the universe. 

 12:50

One glass. All right. So when you think about the one thing that you have done, how do you feel about it? And if you feel any hesitation to let it, to diminish it, go on, sign, or to not let it count. 

 13:15

Here's what I want you to do. Set that feeling aside and say, okay, I understand that my brain is programmed to not let this count. But that's not what we're doing right now. What we're doing right now is finding that feeling when I did the thing that I wanted, no matter how big or how small. 

 13:36

And I'm finding that. And so for me, queen of the universe feeling, it's, oh, it's in my chest. That's where I feel a lot of things. I think that's very common. And it just feels light. My shoulders kind of sink back a little bit. 

 13:53

My head, my chin raises a little open and light. Okay, are you finding that feeling? For me, that feeling right now on a scale of one to ten, it's about a two. So rate your feeling as well. It's not very big. 

 14:12

But what I'm going to do is I'm going to take breaths and I'm going to pretend like that feeling is like a balloon in my chest. And with my focus and my concentration, I can actually turn that feeling up. 

 14:27

I can make it bigger. So take some breaths with me. Find that feeling of accomplishment or success or confidence or whatever it is that's in your chest and blow on the out-breath or the in-breath, whatever feels better. 

 14:50

Expand it. Think about it getting bigger. Think about it getting more intense and using the power of your brain to focus and pay attention, to expand that feeling wherever it is in your body, and to really soak it in, to really let it count. 

 15:19

Because that is the thief. Better is the thief. It's the thief of this feeling. It's the thief of feeling like your accomplishments count and matter. And what happens when we don't let our feelings, excuse me, our accomplishments count and matter is that life is far less satisfying, far less joyful, far less of something that gets us out of bed in the morning. 

 16:00

Because when we have, when one Pilates class doesn't count and only 10 Pilates classes count, that means I can't celebrate, I can't own it, I can't brag about it, I can't really live into the person who goes, being the person who goes to Pilates. 

 16:21

I can't live into that until I'm at 10. And what happens if I don't get to 10? Then all of it was for nothing. It was never who I was. I don't get to feel success. And then we just end up shitting all over ourselves in this way that is so painful. 

 16:42

So I like New Year's. I like New Year's resolutions. I like the opportunity to recenter myself. You know, I think you can really do it anytime. I think there's nothing magical about January, but I do think it's a time of year when a lot of us do it. 

 17:04

So here is my New Year's resolution. I'm just going to let things count. If it's one Pilates class, if it's sitting with negative emotions for five minutes, two minutes, one minute, if it's increased awareness of the way I'm talking to myself or the way that I am or the way that I am envisioning myself as a woman, as a contributor. 

 17:43

I'm going to watch out for that word better because right now, in this moment, what I have to say is perfect. Who I am is perfect. What I do with my time is perfect. It's good. I am good. And if I want to make some changes, great. 

 18:11

If I'd like to watch a little less TV at night, fine. But it's not so I can be better. It's because I just have something else I want to do with that time. And so I offer this New Year's resolution to you. 

 18:28

What can you let count more? How can you take the small wins and steps in the direction of your choosing that you are taking? How can you let it count? Because that is where the juicy satisfaction is. 

 18:47

Let me know. Comments, emails, DMs, because I'd really love to cheer you on.

Episode 143 - Self-Silencing is Making You Sick

A lot of the women I work with are carrying the same fear: the fear of disappointing other people. We were taught that being good means being nice, low-maintenance, and emotionally contained–even when it costs us. But staying silent doesn’t just strain our relationships; it takes a real toll on our bodies and our health. In this episode, I explore how self-silencing is making women sick, why it quietly creates resentment and loneliness, and simple ways to start speaking up and building more health, honesty, and real connection in your life. Here’s what I cover:

• A Time article that dives into the statistics and psychology behind women and self-silencing

• How staying quiet to keep the peace actually prevents real closeness

• The cultural conditioning that causes self-silencing and why it’s not your fault

• Why your emotions are a rich source of information about your needs and well-being

• Three core skills that will help you be more honest without abandoning yourself

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

I could sum up this entire episode in three words. Be more disappointing. If you've been listening for a while, you know that I am really in favor of women developing the tools to be able to advocate better for themselves, which often disappoints other people, to say what they need to say, which often disappoints other people. 

 01:19

But some of the reading that I've been doing lately has put this need for us to be able to let other people down and to take better care of ourselves in much sharper focus. A lot of the women that I work with struggle with the same fear. 

 01:34

They're very afraid to disappoint other people, right? We've all been taught that being a good woman, a good employee, a good sister means being nice all the time, putting other people first, and always keeping your own emotions under control. 

 01:49

But here's what I know now more than ever. It affects not just your relationships. It's making your relationship sick to some degree. It also is having a tremendous effect on your health, your physical health. 

 02:05

And today I want to talk about an article that I read. It's out of Time magazine, came out in their September issue. It's called Self-Silencing is Making Women Sick. Because we have to talk about what self-silencing does to our relationships, but also to our bodies. 

 02:23

I'm 52 years old. I have just kind of come out of some of the fog of perimenopause, and I'm actively working on so many aspects of trying to get healthier so that I can age with a little more mobility and a little more freedom. 

 02:39

And this is just as important as weightlifting, okay? Just as important as walking the dog, just as important as making sure that I'm eating the right food. And because I want all of us to enjoy the maximum amount of freedom, we've got to talk about it. 

 02:55

So let's start with what happens to your body when you cannot speak up for what you need. The facts are seriously alarming. I want you to hear this next sentence and appreciate it for the bonkers statistic that it is. 

 03:12

Women make up almost 80% of autoimmune disease cases. That's crazy. We are much more likely to have chronic pain, insomnia, fibromyalgia, long COVID, IBS, Hashimoto's, migraines. There's a really long list. 

 03:33

And 80% of autoimmune disease cases are women. We are also twice as likely as men to die after a heart attack. Think about that. We experience depression and anxiety at twice the rate of men. Now, I think that some of that has got to be because men aren't speaking up, but when women report twice as likely to be depressed and anxious as men. 

 04:04

And we are nine times more likely to have anorexia, which is the deadliest mental health disorder. Now, maybe you're thinking, okay, but isn't that just like biology? And maybe there's some, you know, genetic component in there? 

 04:22

No, not exactly. So we need to go back to the late 1980s to get a really clear view of this. So in the late 1980s, a psychologist named Jack Dana started noticing that a lot of her female patients who had depression also had a pattern. 

 04:43

And she called it the pattern of self-silencing. Taking care of everyone else, trying to make everyone else happy. Don't express what you really feel or need. And she found that the women were doing this to try and be close to people and to get their relationship needs met. 

 05:04

Think about that for a second. Women were staying silent to feel close to people. We'll come back to how messed up that is in a minute. But Jack found that this behavior, which comes from patriarchy, right? 

 05:20

How society teaches women to act, was directly connected to depression. But here's where it gets really scary. Other research has shown that self-silencing isn't just bad for your mental health. It actually is terrible for your physical health as well. 

 05:37

In 2022, researchers found that women of color who said things like, quote, I rarely express my anger to people close to me, close quote, were 70% more likely to have health problems, the kind that lead to heart attacks. 

 05:57

Other studies have connected staying silent to IBS, chronic fatigue, and even cancer. And here's the worst finding. In one study, research followed about 4,000 people for 10 years. And they found that the women who didn't speak up when they had fights with their husbands were four times more likely to die early than women who did speak up. 

 06:26

Four times. And even when they looked at things like age and blood pressure and smoking and cholesterol and kind of some other health factors, it didn't change. Women who didn't speak up were four times more likely to die early than women who did. 

 06:44

When women push their feelings down and ignore their own needs, their bodies literally start breaking down. I want you to think about the physical toll or the sensations that you feel when you shut down your anger. 

 07:02

My stomach clenches. It feels like I have this kind of burning in my gut. When I'm sad, when I need help, when I feel overwhelmed and I just internalize all of that, what this article and many others are showing us is that not expressing our big emotions, not asking for help, not saying what we need, not knowing how to express a need, not being able to resolve problems, not being able to have difficult conversations actually result in our bodies being sicker. 

 07:40

It's a serious, serious problem, not just for our physical health, but because of the fact that it can produce this four times more likely statistic where we actually die. So I'm bringing it up because there are some skills, we're going to talk about them, that can absolutely address this. 

 08:03

And I'm at that midlife age. I know so many of the women that I talk with who are like, I just, I have run out of fucks to give. I just don't quite have the skills yet to be able to express myself the way I want. 

 08:18

I want this episode to be really useful for you. We got to talk about one other thing, though. Staying silent isn't just making women sick. It's also making our relationships sick as well. Remember how Dana Jack described self-silencing and how women do it so that they can feel close to people and get their relationship needs met? 

 08:40

It's interesting because it's like the only need we have is to feel close to people. We don't actually know that we have the opportunity to show up as our real selves. That's interesting to note. Here's something really ironic and actually pretty cool to stack on top of that. 

 08:55

Staying silent actually prevents the very closeness that women are trying to protect and create by staying silent. If you can just see this pattern, you know, a woman is taught, if I have needs that are too big, if I have wants that are considered too much or too dramatic, if I have opinions that other people don't like, if I am really myself, I will be rejected. 

 09:21

So I stay silent and then nobody gets to know the real me and I don't actually have that closeness. It is such a sad irony. Think about it. When you hide your real feelings, people don't actually know you. 

 09:35

When you pretend you're fine when you're not, when you say yes, when you mean no, when you armor up and you get really hyper independent and say, you know, I don't need help, I can do it on my own. And you keep people at a distance, you're actually building relationships based on a pretend version of yourself, a performative version. 

 09:54

Your partner, your friends, your family, they are in a relationship with someone who isn't showing them who they really are. And the sadness is we know it. That's why we feel lonely in our relationship sometimes. 

 10:08

That's why we feel resentful when other people don't support us the same way we support everybody else. They don't know we need that support. We have programmed them to think that we are all capable, that we can, you know, do it on our own, and that actually that's how we want to do it. 

 10:27

I talk to so many women who are in relationships with people that care about them, but they still feel completely alone and scared that if people really knew who they were, that they would be abandoned. 

 10:44

And that's why so many of us are dealing with so much loneliness and resentment. Resentment builds when there is no honesty. I know you know the feeling, right? Nice on the outside, angry on the inside, smiling while you do whatever it is you're doing for other people, secretly furious that no one offered to help, saying I'm fine through clenched teeth, even while your body is just like throbbing and thrumming on the inside, 

 11:14

keeping track of every single thing you're upset or hurt about. And that resentment, it's not just poisoning your relationships. It's poisoning your body. I know there's much better medical explanations for this, but the surge of cortisol and adrenaline that just bathes our body in all of those stress hormones, it is not good for us. 

 11:39

It's not good for us. One of the things that also falls apart when there isn't honesty is trust. When you don't speak honestly about what you really need and want, and then you get upset about it, people learn they can't trust your yes. 

 11:55

They can't trust your quote unquote, I'm fine, right? They start to feel like something is off with you, even though they can't explain it. And they do what humans do, right? They self-protect. Maybe there's a little more distance. 

 12:09

And you lose trust in yourself too. When you've ignored your needs for too long, sometimes you don't even know what they are anymore. You genuinely don't know what you want. We become strangers to ourselves when all of our energy and effort is focused on doing everything for everyone else. 

 12:28

It's the most common thing I hear from women when I talk to them. I don't even know who I am and I don't really know what I truly like. We also have to be honest about something else. Our silence puts burdens on other people. 

 12:47

When we don't tell people what we need, we're basically asking them to read our minds, right? Which sets them up to fail because they can't do that. And then we get mad at them for not being able to intuit something that we never said. 

 13:03

There's distance. There's confusion. Sometimes there's walking on eggshells around us trying to figure out what's wrong. Staying silent doesn't protect our relationships. It doesn't bring us closeness. 

 13:18

It doesn't protect them from fights. It just makes the conflict quieter, almost constant, and it goes into our bodies. It goes underground. This is saddest in our most intimate relationships because without self-disclosure, without sharing who we really are, what we really like, what we really want, we can't have intimacy and connection. 

 13:46

And in some of our more, maybe less important relationships, they just kind of stay surface level, right? Maybe they just kind of stay in a shallow place. And maybe that's fine, conversations on the surface. 

 13:59

But it's really sad when that is what is happening in our most important relationships. When there's all that resentment underneath and all that anger, we have to keep our conversations on the surface because going deeper could lead to conflict. 

 14:17

There's emotional distance everywhere. And a lot of the women I know just would call that quote unquote keeping the peace. It comes at such a high cost, the loneliness. I speak to so many women who are really, really lonely. 

 14:34

They long to be known. They long to be seen. They long to be heard. They long to know who they really are and to live a truly just authentic and satisfying life. But this is what self-silencing does to connection. 

 14:50

It destroys it from the inside out. So it is making us sick and it is destroying our relationships. It's destroying the potential for intimacy, the potential for deeply rewarding, vulnerable, intimate connection. 

 15:09

Hey, quick interruption. If you are currently holding like 47 mental tabs open, the gifts, the travel, your own emotions, everyone else's feelings, I have something that will actually make this holiday season easier for you. 

 15:24

I've got two workshops that are available right now, instant access, that you can watch for free through December 31st. One is about setting and keeping boundaries, and the other is how to disappoint someone and not die. 

 15:37

They're short, they're good, and they will help you lower your holiday stress and remind you of some skills that are really useful and essential all year round, but especially right now. The links in the show notes, go grab a tiny bit of relief. 

 15:52

Back to the episode. So we have to talk about this because I never want to have a podcast episode where I blame women for this because it's not our fault, right? We keep staying silent, even when it's literally killing us and ruining our relationships, but it's not our fault. 

 16:12

That is what our culture rewards. All the way from young women to old, we get praised for being chill, right? For being so go with the flow, so low needs. I have so many women who tell me that they were praised for not having needs by their own mothers who were also overwhelmed, right? 

 16:32

We get praised in the workplace for doing all our work all by ourselves and for helping other people on the team or in the department get their work done as well. There's so much praise and adoration for women who don't speak up. 

 16:50

But the things that we are praised for are not actually good. We think that they're strengths, but they're actually really toxic. In other words, women who tell me things like, I don't deserve to put myself first, or I don't know how to put myself first. 

 17:10

I agree to things even when I don't want to. I don't speak up when I have a need or a want. I can't disappoint other people, right? My friends need me or my family needs me to show up. If I tell my husband what I really think, he'll leave or he won't like me. 

 17:29

While we think we are generating closeness with that, I hope you can hear in just the message of this episode and the message of that time article that what we're really doing is risking our health, risking dying early, and being lonely and not having the satisfying relationships that we want. 

 17:54

So what do we do? First, we need to stop treating our emotions like they're problems to shut down. We need to stop treating our emotions like they're problems. Your emotions are the richest source of usually untapped information about you. 

 18:18

Your emotions are trying to tell you something. Anger. I think anger is your best friend. Anger is the emotion that loves you the most. Sometimes it's trying to tell you something about something that needs to change about your situation. 

 18:34

Sadness might mean you're losing something important. Grief, that there's changes in your life, that there's something that needs attention. Anxiety might mean a need to feel safe. So instead of pushing that anger away or hiding your sadness, try asking yourself, what do I need right now? 

 18:55

In fact, do this with me. It's my favorite exercise. Put your hands on your chest or somewhere else that feels like loving connection. And just ask yourself, what do I need right now? What are my emotions trying to tell me? 

 19:10

Our fatigue is trying to tell us we are doing too much. Our fear is trying to tell us that we might need more support. Our overwhelm is telling us that we need more resources. Our loneliness is telling us we want genuine connection. 

 19:28

And none of that is selfish. You deserve to be able to feel emotions that are totally human, totally normal, totally part of the human experience, and learn about what that emotion is trying to tell you to improve your life. 

 19:46

That's not selfish. We also need to get a little bit more comfortable setting boundaries, right? Be more disappointing. I know that for women who have been taught that being likable is like everything, setting boundaries might even feel wrong, feel selfish, feels harsh. 

 20:04

Many women feel that if they actually say what they need or where their limits are, it will ruin their relationships. But the opposite is true. When you set healthy boundaries, your relationships actually get stronger and healthier. 

 20:21

I have lived it myself. I have seen it over and over again in the clients that I work with in my group coaching program. When we are able to be truthful about where our limits are, relationships get healthier and stronger. 

 20:38

All relationships? No, I'm going to be honest, right? There are some people who enjoy and benefit from your lack of boundaries. They are probably not going to like it when you show up with a lot more boundaries, but those aren't the relationships that you need to be investing in. 

 20:57

And we actually want to know. We actually want to know who we should be putting some time and energy into developing a closer relationship with and who we shouldn't, because that's what boundaries do. 

 21:08

They create clarity. They create trust. They let people know where you actually stand. They allow real closeness to happen because you're finally showing up as your real self. I have a friend who does not like drop-ins, right? 

 21:26

She does not like it when you show up to her house. And one time I did it and I witnessed firsthand that she didn't like it. And so when we were talking later, I felt really bad. I felt like I had done something wrong. 

 21:40

And when she told me, like, I have this need to just know who's going to be coming over to my house. It helps me get ready to receive them as my best self. It allows me to either say, you know, yes or no to you coming over. 

 21:56

And it was definitely uncomfortable because I wasn't used to communicating in such honest, clear terms. But it has been such a gift to our friendship for me to know exactly where she is on that and for me to be able to honor that. 

 22:12

So the closeness that we have now actually increased after she told me what her boundary was and what she needed from me. Having healthy relationships isn't just emotionally good. This is where our healthy relationships and our physical health really enhance each other. 

 22:31

Healthy relationships are physically protective. One study showed that people with supportive relationships have a 50% lower risk of dying early. Let me say that again. Real connection, the kind that is built on honesty, on self-disclosure, on speaking up, literally helps you live longer. 

 22:55

And it makes the quality of the time that we are alive so much more joyful. I want to be clear, right? This is a process. Being authentic takes some time. It's not about being reactive. It's not about dumping all your emotions on other people without any thought, right? 

 23:13

I think you know that. It's about staying connected to yourself while also staying connected with others. But there's both self-connection and connection to others. That's part of it, learning how to maintain, first of all, how to create, and then how to maintain a connection to yourself. 

 23:33

You're already very connected to other people, right? I already know that. But the connection to you is a skill that we can work on together. And then, as you have connection with yourself, you need to learn to say different words like, I can't do that, but I really care about you. 

 23:52

Or, that won't work for me, but what I can do is this. Or, what you said really hurt my feelings and I need to talk to you about it. Or, I love you and I'm also very angry right now and I need a chance to deal with that on my own. 

 24:12

It's about disappointing people honestly with what is really going on and then being able to take care of those big emotions that come up in us. So it's about staying connected to ourselves. If we want to pull out three skills here, number one, staying connected to you. 

 24:34

Number two, saying different words. And number three, knowing how to take care of the big emotions that come up for you when you start to self-disclose, when you start to say what you need, when you start to be more honest. 

 24:51

Those skills actually start to build a new way of you being in relationship in the world. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that it needs to happen because your health and your relationships really depend on it. 

 25:08

It means we need to stop celebrating women for sacrificing themselves, right? For overgiving and overdoing and being able to do it all on their own. We need to start celebrating women for respecting themselves enough to have limitations, to have boundaries. 

 25:25

It means we need to teach our daughters that their needs matter just as much as everyone else's. It means that we need to create a new normal where women can honor their emotions, get their needs met, put those needs into words and share them, and actually communicate in honest, beautiful ways. 

 25:45

I think it is one of the most incredible gifts of where I am in life right now. Perimenopause, midlife, it is just really clear to me what matters and what I want my life to look like. And because of coaching, I have the skills to get that. 

 26:03

And I really want to share those skills with you. If any of this sounds like you are ready to develop some of these skills, there's a link in my bio. There's a link in the show notes. Set up a call with me. 

 26:16

We'll have 60 minutes to talk about what you need. I will send you on your way with concrete skill work to do some of these things for yourself. Because here is what I want you to understand. Self-silencing, it's literally making you sick. 

 26:36

It's destroying your body. It's increasing your risk of heart disease, autoimmune disorders, chronic illness, and dying early. And maybe it's not destroying your relationships, but it's in the way of the true intimacy that you really want. 

 26:55

It's creating resentment. It's breaking down trust. And it's keeping everybody lonely, even when we're sometimes surrounded by people that love us. It's really heartbreaking. Women who stay silent for the sake of a relationship, they don't get it. 

 27:12

It's destroying that very relationship. So, yes, you need to be more disappointing. We need to learn how to tell the truth more, even when it's uncomfortable. And there are real skills, like I know that can be terrifying. 

 27:27

I felt terrified, but there are real skills that you can learn to connect to yourself, to learn how to say different words, and to take care of your emotions and your nervous system so that you can do it. 

 27:43

You deserve it. You deserve to be both healthy and truly known. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.

Episode 142 - Understanding Religious Trauma Part 2 with Kendra Hill

Some social structures can hold us for a time, but if they don’t expand as we grow, they eventually become suffocating and cause more harm than good. The decision to step out of that container can feel destabilizing, but it opens you up to a deeper sense of self-trust and allows you to see your own growth with more clarity. In part two of my conversation with licensed therapist Kendra Hill, we explore her Religious Trauma Checklist and discuss how naming these patterns can help you recognize the progress you’ve already made, and continue unraveling religious trauma with love. If you haven’t listened to part one yet, make sure to start there. Here’s what we cover:

• Why it can feel like the rug has been pulled out from under you when you lose religious certainty

• How trauma reorganizes your inner world and why old structures eventually stop working

• The grief of outgrowing a belief system or community that once felt like home

• Kendra’s “soup” metaphor for rejecting everything before reclaiming what still fits

• What it looks like to rebuild self-trust and walk away from environments that don’t honor you

Kendra Hill is a neurodivergent artist, beauty seeker, exvangelical, and believer in people. By profession she is a Licensed Professional Counselor in the State of Colorado and an online coach across the nation with a specific focus on providing space for those who have some kind of religious background, religious trauma, are deconstructing their faith, or come from high control environments. She has recently relocated to New York City but remains passionate about holding space for people's stories - especially the ones it seems like no one else understands. Kendra co-owns a private practice called Unraveling Free Therapy & Coaching and is currently accepting new clients. 

Find Kendra here:

www.unravelingfree.com

https://www.instagram.com/unravelingfree

https://unravelingfree.com/religious-trauma-checklist-freebie

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57

One of the things that I have bumped up against as I have unraveled my behavior from people pleasing and codependent tendencies is my religious upbringing. What I was taught to believe, what I was taught to believe about God and how he looks at me and how I'm supposed to please him by being obedient and there's has been a lot there for me and maybe there is for you too. I hear a lot from women who grew up in religious congregations, sometimes very conservative like mine and how scary it is to not please people anymore, especially when God is involved. So my conversation with Kendra Hill on religious trauma speaks directly to that.We define it, we talk about what it is, what it isn't and how to begin to unravel it with love. Kendra is a licensed therapist. She is neurodivergent. She is a beauty seeker and an ex evangelical herself and she really believes deeply in people. I think you're going to love this conversation. Part two, you have a really great handout. I'm going to link to your website where people can sign up to get it. It's a religious trauma checklist and we've gone through just a lot of them just in our discussion. There's just a couple more that I want to highlight because they really kind of stood out to me. This is something that I see a lot in people. I often struggle with shame, believing I'm unworthy and or I hold a low view of myself. It's this idea of like I'm constantly a sinner. I'm constantly doing something wrong. There's always something wrong with me or something I should be working to improve. Like I'm a constant 24 seven self-improvement project. 

Kendra Hill 02:47

Mm-hmm. Why would anybody believe that they're wrong coming from these belief systems? Doesn't make any sense, right? I'm just kidding. That didn't land, but... 

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:04

Well, it's so fascinating because our desire for certainty as humans is so strong. And when someone hands us this, like this is the way it is, these are the rules you're supposed to follow, and this is the outcome that you get when you follow those rules. And God is like this cosmic vending machine and you put your good behavior in and then you get to push a prize and it's wealth or health in this life or eternal reward in the life to come. And I can understand why that feels so compelling as a human. I totally wanna know what happens. But the sense of the rug being pulled out from under you when you just can't make sense that it works that way anymore. When you kind of come out of that certainty bubble, I just, there were days when I felt like the very ground underneath my feet was moving. Like nothing felt fixed, nothing felt true, nothing felt reliable anymore. Because if that wasn't true, what else wasn't true? 

Kendra Hill 04:18

Yeah it kind of makes me think of another way to maybe describe what happens with trauma and bear with me here because this is just like coming to me but I'm thinking about how you know internally we organize ourselves around what happens to us in life and so if something happens that's super overwhelming to the point where we struggle to cope where it overwhelms our nervous system then essentially what's happening inside is that these structures the way that we have structured ourselves the way that we have organized ourselves inside it's like a bomb goes off or if it's chronic it's like something's wearing away at those structures right and there has to be some type of reorganization to help us feel stable like we can move through the world and personally my story is like I said I didn't grow up in this really fundamentalist evangelical Christian environment that a lot of people I see have grown up in but I did grow up in a pretty traumatic environment and I carried a lot of trauma with me into college and when I found this campus ministry it was like yes here's the blueprint for how I can rebuild in my inside world that feels like it's just shattered right and just laying in shambles and needs so much work oh it was such a relief and that's why I say like I needed it I needed that blueprint and a lot of neurodivergent folks really latch onto that like that structure and that guidebook and like yes yes I need this but then you know we continue to progress we continue to develop and at some point we're like these structures are now harming me but why and how and what do I do with that and then what you're describing this the rug being pulled out from under you is what a lot of people feel when they start to deconstruct it's like well what the fuck I had this whole structure this was the answer and it didn't hold me now what do I do and it's a pile of rubble again

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:05

That is such a good point. I think so many people who are in kind of the first half of life where we really need a structure, we really need, like you said, that guidebook, the community that loves us and kind of holds us up. I mean, the promise of a community that loves and sees us is so powerful. And I do believe it actually exists in some places.And if a community cannot grow with you and honor you as you change and your beliefs shift, then that's when, for me, it began to feel like, I can't be myself here. I'm growing and changing and I am doubting this or I'm coming to believe that this might not be what you said it was, or it might not be for me what I needed to be for me. And that experience isn't honored here. In fact, it's punished. And so for a lot of people who start off really loved, I loved the structure of my religious community. I loved knowing exactly what was going to come next. The thinking had been done for me and all I had to do was kind of show up every week and serve and believe and be faithful and keep the rules until it felt like I was being kind of torn apart from the inside out of like, I can't be who I really am here anymore. My children can't be. I have a daughter who is gay and that's not okay in Mormon land. And there's a lot of things that happen for a lot of us in religious communities that are not okay and can't be honored and are actually punished. And that's leads to a lot of deconstruction and that experience that you articulated so beautifully. 

Kendra Hill 09:02

Yeah, and I think that's the case for a lot of people. I often talk about how when we're babies, some babies, not all babies like to be swaddled, but that swaddling is so important for some babies to help them calm down and to suit them. But if you kept the swaddle that tight or if it stayed the same shape, then that baby wouldn't be able to grow and thrive. And I feel like that's what can happen with these structures.They can hold us for a time and they can actually really be what we needed for a time. But then when we start to change and grow and those aren't able to change or expand with us, there's so much tension. And it's like we can go a couple of different ways. We can make ourselves smaller and we can cut off parts of ourselves. I'm so glad this didn't happen in your family, but it could have been like, well, that's just not allowed. And so we're going to stay here. And it makes sense when people do that. I get it. That sense of belonging is so compelling and it's so scary to leave that. But then you're living a life just not able to be fully yourself. You're cutting off parts of you or like trying to fit into a shape that you were never made to stay in. And so people expand beyond that and sometimes decide, okay, I need to step out of this container now. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:42

Oh, I have such empathy and compassion for when you feel yourself kind of pushing against the limitations and it can be a religious community. It can even just be like a past kind of iteration of your life, you know, like the rules and kind of structure that aren't necessarily religious, but that you used to think were good and right for yourself.And so finding out who you really are and really deeply trusting who you are and your ability to know things and guide yourself and be kind of this sovereign authority is such, it's such a beautifully messy journey. If someone is listening and either recognizing some of this in themselves or curious about it, how would they begin to investigate it and maybe even start to heal it? 

Kendra Hill 11:42

I really think that I'm really thankful for this conversation and I'm thankful that more conversations like this are happening. I just heard from someone the other day that they more recently deconstructed and they had the wonderful privilege of having all of this information, these terms. They've been exposed to the term religious trauma. There are more resources around it. There are books written about it now, which wasn't the case a handful of years ago. And so I would say even just that, being able to name what is happening is huge.That's a huge first step. So I mean, truly that quiz on our website about if you have religious trauma, if you're curious, look at that quiz or look at a blog post or start reading about what religious trauma is and see if you can relate. And if you can, it can be really hard because a lot of times the people you have around you that you would normally go to when things come up that you need to process are probably not going to be able to process this with you because it would also cause them to start to pull some threads that they might not be ready to pull and then have their own belief system unravel too. But sometimes you have people who can relate. Anyway, I'm going on a tangent. Learning more, reaching out to, there are lots of like Instagram creators now who talk about religious trauma, even like being part of a community online to start to notice, okay, I'm not alone. There are other people who are going through this. That can be huge because it can feel so isolating. And then reaching out to, I mean, a practice like ours Unraveling Free where we're not just solely focusing on religious trauma, but it's the therapist who understand the nuances of it. So you don't have to start from scratch explaining like what your background is, who can understand like some of what can come up in this process. That's an option too. Yeah, does that answer? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:24

Yes. That's great.And I just want to kind of recall something that you said earlier that you really try to keep in mind and that someone that you talk to about this needs to be someone who can point you back to yourself, your own authority, your own, even if it feels like it's barely there, right? You're a little baby foal who's just been born and can't even really walk upright. Totally fine. They still need to point you back to yourself and your ability to know, even if it feels uncomfortable or unsure right now. And that curiosity over time, if you're being gentle and if you're being gracious and if you're being generous with yourself, it will grow into higher and higher, stronger levels of self-trust and self-authority. 

Kendra Hill 15:21

Yeah. And so you were telling me when we were talking before that you looked at that religious trauma checklist and used it to actually see the progress that you've made in your own healing. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:34

Totally. When I first downloaded it, I went through it. It's fantastic. I want everyone to take a look at it, so it will for sure be linked.But there were so many, for example, I have a deep fear of being judged for who I am. I think I have an average human, but the deep, the paralyzing fear, it's gone. Another one is trusting myself feels wrong or dangerous. No, trusting myself feels like absolutely the right decision. And even before we started recording, I was describing to you a meeting that I was in this morning, and it was a training about how to host in-person group events so that there's connection and so that people find community together, which I'm very interested in doing. But there were aspects of the meeting that in my body just felt like, nope, there was the ask for details of intimate experiences or intimate details, meaning how have I transformed or where am I learning and growing? And to me, that feels like I want to know you a little better before I open up about the things that are in my heart. And so there was this request for intimacy that didn't feel earned. There was demands for participation that didn't feel genuine. I was being asked to agree, and everybody else was nodding their head and agreeing in ways that didn't feel authentic. And so in a lot of ways, I can look at who I am now. And a lot of this feels like it is in a much better place than it was when I first came out of church experience. And I also always see room for growth. I still get stuck sometimes, and there is a right way to do things. And I still feel sometimes a sense of I'm behind. And while everybody else was learning how to be these amazing self-actualized humans in the world, I was busy learning how to be a good Mormon. And I can feel even some some embarrassment sometimes that I don't know things that either other women my age know, or I didn't have experiences that other women my age had. I wasn't sleeping around and drinking my way through college. That kind of excludes me from conversations. And that's just one example, right? There's others, but I still think it shows up for me, even culturally, in some ways, I have five children, a lot of people are like, Oh, my gosh, white, five children. And I have to understand like, yep, when that's the measurement of faithfulness in your religious tradition, that's what you do. And so I still bump up against some some feelings about it sometime. 

Kendra Hill 18:36

Yeah, of course, and that makes so much sense. And I love what you're bringing though, because it's realistic, right? There's hope that if you have religious trauma, it doesn't have to control your life forever. And you're an example, and there are so many examples of people who have not stayed in the darkest grips of religious trauma. There's so much hope for that.And of course, these things affect you. They're part of your development. And I think the difference is, you know, we talk about mental wellness in our field, not being that these things don't ever come up, but when they do come up, you know how to navigate them and you trust yourself to navigate them. You don't have to use those same strategies of avoiding or bypassing or pushing them away, seeking external authority, whatever it is. You actually get to navigate them now. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:39

That is such a beautiful definition of what, I don't know, if you want to call it healing, I know that word gets used a lot, but that you have the tools to navigate it. You trust yourself to navigate it. You feel some sturdiness or some resilience that you didn't feel before.I find, you know, that I also, it feels like I come back to myself faster. Like when I was sitting in that meeting this morning, I was like, this isn't very comfortable. I don't really like this. I was like, I don't have to be here. And I left, you know, and a full hour and a half early, I was just like, I'm done with this. And so I felt like that was a moment of like, oh, you know what? You don't have to stay here. You don't ever have to do anything you don't truly want to do again. And I felt it and was able to kind of step out. 

Kendra Hill 20:30

I love that example and the phrase, you don't have to stay here, so liberating. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 20:36

Yeah. The last thing that I want to name that I think I'm just really beginning to understand that has been part of my process and I'm interested in your thoughts is I'm also able to look back at some of the good things that happened to me because I grew up Mormon with genuine appreciation and also acknowledgement that it might not have been the healthiest or the best way to do it. Like there is a shadow side to it as well.And let me give you an example. Many young Mormon kids really serve missions in other parts of the world. I know that mission trips are kind of a practice in a lot of Christian faiths. And my mission was to Bolivia. I loved it. I loved learning Spanish and learning to love that people. It's a country that I continue to visit and work in today as part of a charitable organization. And also there were some highly inappropriate, dangerous positions that I was put in that were wildly inappropriate for a 21 year old, 22 year old woman to navigate alone.And so being able to kind of hold the good and name the bad, which is very different for everybody and is very individual and to let what was good for me matter to me and what didn't work for me and what was bad to me matter to me, even if I'm the only one who feels that way. You know, if I'm in a room full of people and they're like, no, missions are amazing. I still feel like I get to say, this part was, I appreciated and love this part. And this part was not good and amazing for me. 

Kendra Hill 22:33

That's beautiful that you can do that now. And I think what I want to emphasize there is I feel like that is a particular place that you can get to in your healing process. And I just want to name that for people who are listening who are like, hell no, I am nowhere near that place.Because I think people often have to go through this process of, I kind of have this metaphor of you know, there you have some soup, and you've been eating this soup for a long time. And all of a sudden, you realize that it's been making you very sick. And you can't eat the soup anymore. And so you you don't go anywhere near any of the ingredients that were in that soup. Because you need to get away from it, you need to recover, you can't be reminded of it, it's gonna it's gonna cause these certain like reactions in your body if you get close to it. And that is really valid. That's a really valid part of getting out of a system that is controlling you, or that you feel stuck in. And so then as you do some more, you know, processing around it, I think that's where you can start to slowly introduce like, well, I really liked the carrots. Let me try the carrots and see, was that making me sick? And I can I can trust myself to know, right, I can taste the carrot and I can go, is that making me sick? Or do I want that? Do I like that? Is that nourishing to my body? Okay, yes. But this part of the soup, this base, that that made me sick, right. And so that can be a bit of a process of like, what can I reintroduce? What can I look back on and be grateful for without that feeling like such a threat anymore? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 24:27

Bye. I'm so glad that you said it that way. Because that was the process for me. I had to kind of reject everything. And then come back to, well, that was okay. And there were some things that I loved about that experience or learned. And I don't ever want to do it again.Eating carrots for me at that time to borrow your metaphor. There were some good things that I learned from that. And I never want to eat carrots again. And there is no right way to do this. I have so many, you know, just the aspect of growing up in Mormonism is sometimes prevalent in other religious groups as well. And that women are supposed to have children and stay home with them. And I know so many women who have so much grief around becoming mothers, when they really, it wasn't a choice they were consciously making because they couldn't really choose to not be a mother without being punished or looked down on. And so they have really complicated feelings about their children. They've really complicated feelings about the experience of being a wife or a mother about not being able to explore other parts of them.And you never ever have to feel good about that. I don't want to be misunderstood at all that I have learned to find some things that were good that I can appreciate doesn't mean that that is the process for anyone else. And so I really love the way that you described rejecting it all. And then if anything comes back as something that you want to honor, that's completely up to you. 

Kendra Hill 26:10

Yeah, and I love your addition. I think it's so important that you may not want to add something back, but you can still appreciate it from before. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:18

Yeah, it's possible. And just to honor kind of the grief that I think kind of runs through a lot of these experiences and of not being able to choose and not knowing exactly what it was that we were doing or agreeing to or tying ourselves down to is something that comes up over and over and over again. And there isn't an end to my own grief and grieving process. And so if that feels familiar to you too as well, well, you're in good company.Is there anything that you want to say that you haven't been able to say so far in our conversation that you really, really want to make sure it gets added? 

Kendra Hill 26:59

Nothing is coming to mind. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 27:01

And I just really appreciate your thoughtfulness and wisdom, because I think also inherent in this conversation is, okay, well, how do I fix it? Who's the authority who's going to tell me how I fix this, right?And we just kind of bounce from one person telling us what to do to another. And so I feel like the way that you have answered so many of these questions is with some good information, a couple of like touch points, but a real appreciation for the individual nature of this and the fact that you can trust yourself to do it. And so I have really loved this conversation. 

Kendra Hill 27:50

Oh, thank you for saying that. And that means a lot. That means so much to hear.And as you say that, I can just feel myself getting emotional because it is so what I want for people to trust themselves and believe in themselves. And I'm really, really aware that the mental health field, or the coaching space, like any of these places, can become fundamentalists, right? And so I appreciate that too about our conversation, that we don't want fundamentalism in any form. We just want to talk about it. And ultimately, we want people to be informed enough to explore their own experiences and do what they need to do. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 28:36

To that end, your website and the checklist will all be linked in the show notes, and I would really encourage anyone who is curious about the role of religious trauma to contact Kendra and Casey, the other therapist, in her practice, because I never think it's a bad idea to just have a conversation. And I can imagine that there are some people out there who have some niggling questions now, have a conversation. And if it results in working together fantastic, if it results in just some better information or something to work on next, also, that's never a bad idea.So thank you so much, Kendra, for this conversation. 

Kendra Hill 29:19

Mmm, thanks for having me, Sara. 

Episode 141 - Understanding Religious Trauma Part 1 with Kendra Hill

People-pleasing and codependent tendencies often stem from a religious upbringing. In my own journey of unraveling those behaviors, I’ve had to confront what I was taught to believe about God, obedience, and how “being good” kept me in line. In part one of my conversation with licensed therapist Kendra Hill, we define religious trauma and explore how fear, bypassing, and chronic self-surveillance get wired into us. Here’s what we cover:

• Why many women feel terrified to stop people pleasing when religion is involved

• How growing up with a fear of divine punishment can shape your nervous system

• The difference between religious trauma and religious hurt

• How spiritual bypassing teaches us to ignore our emotions

• What happens when you’re taught to trust authority instead of trusting yourself

Kendra Hill is a neurodivergent artist, beauty seeker, exvangelical, and believer in people. By profession she is a Licensed Professional Counselor in the State of Colorado and an online coach across the nation with a specific focus on providing space for those who have some kind of religious background, religious trauma, are deconstructing their faith, or come from high control environments. She has recently relocated to New York City but remains passionate about holding space for people's stories - especially the ones it seems like no one else understands. Kendra co-owns a private practice called Unraveling Free Therapy & Coaching and is currently accepting new clients.

Find Kendra here:

www.unravelingfree.com

https://www.instagram.com/unravelingfree

https://unravelingfree.com/resources

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

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https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57

One of the things that I have bumped up against as I have unraveled my behavior from people-pleasing and codependent tendencies is my religious upbringing, what I was taught to believe, what I was taught to believe about God and how he looks at me and how I'm supposed to please him by being obedient. There has been a lot there for me, and maybe there is for you too. I hear a lot from women who grew up in religious congregations, sometimes very conservative like mine, and how scary it is to not please people anymore, especially when God is involved. My conversation with Kendra Hill on religious trauma speaks directly to that. We define it, we talk about what it is, what it isn't, and how to begin to unravel it with love. Kendra is a licensed therapist, she is neurodivergent, she is a beauty seeker and an ex evangelical herself, and she really believes deeply in people. I think you're going to love this conversation, part one and part two will be available soon. I am here with Kendra Hill, and Kendra, we are not complete and total strangers, but I found you online. When I was researching religious trauma, it's something that I've been wanting to have a conversation about with someone for some time, and I read through a lot of your materials on your website, and I feel like if we lived closer, we might be best friends. 

Kendra Hill 02:29

Aww. I wish we could find out. I wish we could find out. We can be online best friends. That's okay. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:35

That's right. But one of the things that I appreciated about you is before we even started recording, and I'm just going to say this because if I don't, I'll forget.I'm going to have you introduce yourself in just a second. There are a couple of things we wanted to do and a couple of things we don't want to do. And one of the things we don't want to do is come to this podcast as some kind of healed, refined, perfect versions of ourselves. We are both still very much in the things that happened. And so I just, I wanted to start by acknowledging that for myself and my appreciation for you in being here. 

Kendra Hill 03:13

Yeah, thanks for acknowledging that. I think it's so important.Yeah, I think sometimes there can be this assumption even for therapists that because we're therapists or coaches or because we help guide people that we have it all figured out and we really don't. We have some skills. We have, you know, we have some ability to walk with people, but yeah, very much still human. Okay. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:40

much. What would you want people listening to know about you, what you do, how you came to that work? 

Kendra Hill 03:50

What I would love for people to know is what I do professionally is I am a therapist. I'm a licensed professional counselor in the state of Colorado. I currently live in New York City, but still see people online. And as a coach, I see people across the nation. But really, one of my specialties is helping people who have experienced some type of religious trauma, religious harm, who are going through a faith shift, a faith deconstruction, deconversion, and also people who just come from high control environments in general.So I didn't necessarily grow up in a super fundamentalist environment. I did grow up kind of culturally Christian. And my parents took us to church on Sundays, but it was really more of a moral act than a devout Christian habit. And so it wasn't really until college that I really got into Christianity and joined a campus ministry. And oh man, I like soaked it up like a sponge, but I needed it. So I was at a place in my life where I needed that kind of structure. I needed to feel like I belonged somewhere. I needed to feel like I had some kind of family. And so it was just kind of like, Oh, here it is. Here's my answer. And had some really great experiences there. And then, you know, on the flip side of that had some more damaging experiences. But fast forward to, you know, I had some of my own kind of church trauma. And then I went to seminary for my counseling degree. And there's this joke that people call it cemetery instead of seminary, because a lot of people start deconstructing and questioning things when they go to seminary. So that was the case for me. And I had questioned some things all along, but it was really when I started really learning about mental health, and really like how people change and heal, that I started seeing all of the incongruencies in what I was learning and what I was seeing in my church. And I noticed that a lot of what I was seeing in my church was just a lot of like shame based motivating people to change and fear, fear based motivation. And it just really contradicted what I was learning about how people thrive. And there was a lot more to it. That went into kind of the questions I was asking, but it started there. And then I ended up working at a Christian group practice for a couple of years when I graduated. And I'm so glad for that opportunity, because as I was still deconstructing my own faith, I was sitting with people who really needed a space to do that they were coming for Christian counseling. But what I was finding is that people, like person after person that I sat with had these stories of how certain things had been twisted or certain, you know, their emotions had been really bypassed because of spiritual concepts. Just like person after person, they just shared these things in common. And it really made me want to focus on that and give people a space where they could explore how they've been hurt by religion, how they've been hurt by church, how they've been hurt by belief systems, all of that. And so that's what led me to where I am. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:54

Amazing. I would love to start by just defining some terms.When you talk about religious trauma, is that the same as religious hurt? Is it different? How would you either differentiate those two terms or are they the same? 

Kendra Hill 08:15

It's a great question. I would say they are different, and I use both for a very specific reason, because often when people actually have religious trauma, they wouldn't name that they have religious trauma. And so it's a little more accessible to say I have religious harm or religious hurt, even if it could be considered trauma. I just like to have the option for people to, if one is more accessible.But here's how I would differentiate them. Religious trauma is a form of trauma. And so what trauma is, is basically it's not what you experience. It's not what happened, but it's how your nervous system responds to what has happened. And everybody has a different nervous system, and so everybody has a different response. So one person may experience something, and it shows up in their body as trauma in the aftermath. Another person might experience the same thing, and they don't end up carrying trauma as a result of that. So basically, trauma happens when something is so overwhelming that your nervous system can't cope with it. And then there gets to be this stuck energy inside. With religious trauma, it really just means that the harm happened in some kind of religious context. So religion was weaponized against somebody. A pastor or a church member was the cause of harm. The system, the church system, was the cause of harm. Thank you. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:05

Okay, I want to add a couple things to that, and I want you to just tell me, I think we're talking about the same thing. So I remember being terrified of doing something that might get me punished by God. And that for me was a deeply unsettling, like I couldn't make it make sense. So sometimes God punishes you because you're bad, but he doesn't punish all the bad people.And sometimes you get punished even when you're good, just kind of accidentally, it just seemed like in I don't even have a real frame of reference for the age at which I began to feel that like, kind of like whack-a-mole existence of like, wow, this, I could get punished if I inadvertently do something wrong. So I have to try really hard to never do something wrong. But sometimes good people get punished anyway, and sometimes bad people don't even get punished in that just kind of the unsettling feeling that kind of always lived in my body below the surface. So that would be an example of trauma that comes from religious teachings. Yeah. 

Kendra Hill 11:16

Yes, it's a great example, actually. And I think it leads to something else that's important here is that, you know, trauma can happen from like a single incident. So that's where we get the term PTSD a lot of times.But when we talk about religious trauma, it's often something called complex trauma. And complex trauma is a pattern of behavior over time or a pattern of harm that happens over time. It's often harder to see, harder to talk about, harder to identify. So people who grew up in abusive households might develop complex trauma. It's often relational. And, yeah, that's a great example of, it's not like you can pinpoint one thing that happened that made you afraid. It was just the teachings themselves over time, and how you interacted with them and probably your brain as it was developing, not being able to hold the nuances of like, what does it mean that I'm going to go to hell if I punched it, right? As a child, it's just like, that's so scary. You can't make sense of it. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:39

can't make sense of it. And then you don't have a loving adult who's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, let me help you understand these big feelings you're having.Let me put this into context that matters for where you are developmentally, just kind of being left alone with this idea of a god who both loved me, but also needed to be paid off because I was going to sin and do things wrong. And Jesus had to die so that God could be paid off and be convinced to love me and let me come live with him again. It was a pervasive just fear. And I can actually feel it again in my body right now as we're talking about it. And I can hold it with some kind of detachment and love at this point, but it was really pervasive. And so if you're listening and feeling some of that fear first of all, I'm sorry. And second of all, that is so common to have these pervasive fears, anxieties, terror even that come from the way we were taught that God was watching us, evaluating us, whether we're good enough, worthy enough, and so normal. And then you kind of pair, at least in a lot of Christian religions, especially the one I grew up in, in particular Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormons, the practice of punishing people who were not obeying the rules. Sometimes that punishment was very public, and sometimes it was less public. But when you kind of line up the landmines, like first of all, I have to be so good so that God loves me. And if I'm not, He might punish me, but I'm definitely going to get punished by my congregation, or there's going to be some kind of consequence, even if that's, I'm not allowed to participate in certain things. Another type of traumatic event can be punishment, or withholding, or being separated, or singled out, or deemed not worthy or not good. I'm interested in your thoughts about that. 

Kendra Hill 15:00

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think with trauma, if it ends up showing up, then it's often in the form of I'm not safe, other people aren't safe, the world isn't safe.And then with, you know, this added layer of religion, God's not safe. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:27

Yeah, this God that I'm supposed to love and trust is actually not safe. And that creates just such a disconnect, like how do you reconcile that God's ways are not my ways. God's ways are higher than my ways. I think that kind of was the line that I was handed a lot, like, Sara, you're just not meant to understand everything.And that kind of gets into the second thing I wanted to find, which is bypassing. Because I think bypassing is used to kind of wallpaper over a lot of those traumatic events. And so how would you define bypassing? 

Kendra Hill 16:07

Yeah, I think you're right. I think bypassing really is kind of any strategy to avoid actually feeling emotions or actually being with an experience that you're having. So an example I hear a lot is, you know, that if somebody is feeling anxious and they're told, well, do not be anxious about anything. Just pray about it. Just pray about it. Or have more faith. Or if somebody loses someone, well, they're with Jesus now, right? And no matter how well intentioned those comments are from other people, it really does take somebody away from what they really need to feel in order to move through whatever it is that they're experiencing.And so then what happens is you just push it down, right? And you receive this message of like, okay, well, if I feel something that's not acceptable, so I need to figure out how to just bypass it myself, right? I'm going to internalize that and go, well, clearly this isn't allowed. And so what do I do with it? I got to find a way to not address it. And then it just like builds and builds and builds. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:29

This isn't allowed. Yes.Or I'm bad for feeling this. Like nobody else is feeling this. Everybody else, you know, somebody dies and I get the explanation. Well, God needed them in heaven and everybody else seems to be fine with it. Why am I not fine with it? It must be that my experience is somehow bad or I'm bad for feeling this. 

Kendra Hill 17:54

Oh my gosh. You're saying so much there, Sara. Like you keep coming back to this concept of loneliness and isolation in this context. And it's so true.And that's actually part of what causes trauma to be embedded in our nervous systems is when we feel really alone in the midst of something overwhelming. And I'm hearing that from you over and over again, like, these things are overwhelming. And yet nobody else seems to be feeling this way. Nobody else seems to understand. Nobody is there to like help me through it. And on top of that, you're wrong for feeling that way. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 18:32

And the antidote for feeling bad and wrong is to double down, to believe harder, to read the Bible or scriptures more, to pray more, to trust more, to believe your leaders more. And that that is the way that you will overcome all these feelings that you're not supposed to be feeling.And you will become not only just a better follower of the religious canon or a better whatever, a better Muslim, a better Christian, a better Baptist, a better whatever. But that by doubling down, I did this for so many years. I would feel anxious. I would feel alone. I would feel isolated. I would feel like literally the sentence in my head was like, there's no way I'm good enough. Like with everything that God expects, I was having dinner with some friends. This has many years ago, some Mormon friends. And we were playing kind of a question game. And the question was, if you could be in a room with any historical figure and ask them any question, what would it be? You know, very typical dinner party question. And people are like, Abraham Lincoln, you know, how did it feel to write the Emancipation Proclamation or give the Gettysburg Address or other people? And I said with like so earnestly and so sincerely, like, I want to talk to Jesus. And the question I would ask him is, is it enough? Did I do enough? And I'm even feeling some emotion of that question right now, not because I currently feel it, but because I remember what it was like to carry the weight of that question every single day. Is it enough? Am I doing enough? And never, I don't think I ever was able to have like a real solid yes. I think I felt better about it some days than others. But that's what kept me kind of in this try and try and try and try loop. And I wonder if that is something that you, you know, have any thoughts about that you wouldn't mind sharing. 

Kendra Hill 20:48

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you going there. I think a lot of people know what that's like. You've been in these kinds of environments.Yeah, I even remember I worked for my campus ministry after I graduated from college, and the very first kind of training had like a week of training. And the very first training I went to, I remember afterwards feeling that, like they were talking about, I don't know, like qualities that leaders need to have in this ministry. And afterwards, I went up to the presenter and I said, I don't think I should be doing this. There's no way that I'm good enough to do this. No way. And I remember being told, like something like that, that's normal. Like it's, you know, a lot of people feel that way, but it was so confusing. Right. And so I think part of that is that you get really like contradictory messages where on one hand you're told, well, you're not good enough. And that's what this is about. You need a savior because you're not good enough. And so you don't have getting these messages over and over and over again, that you need to be this, this, this, this to please God, to be a good Christian, to be in God's will. It's so confusing. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:25

So confusing. And your brain has to hold these very contradictory ideas and somehow make sense of it. And you look around and in my congregations, a lot of people seem to be doing that with no sweat, right? And it didn't seem to be bothering them a lot.And so that's what created a lot of the lonely feeling for me was like, I'm the only one who is struggling to make sense of this. And I just wonder if people are listening and they have grown up in religious organizations that they have some religious hurt or harm, or they can even identify some things that feel like what you and I have been describing, how might it be showing up in their lives in ways that might not be really super obvious to them. 

Kendra Hill 23:23

That's a great question. So we get this question a lot.What does this actually look like? How do I know if I have religious trauma? And there's actually a blog post on our website with that title. Do I have religious trauma or something like that? It shows up different for everyone. You know, an interesting thought I was just having about this is if you have religious trauma, it's probably going to be really hard to identify that you have religious trauma. Because part of it is that you can't trust yourself. So going back to that idea that trauma kind of instills this sense in you that you're not safe, the world's not safe, other people aren't safe, God's not safe. But especially when you have been conditioned with the spiritual bypassing that we're talking about, that means that you haven't had the chance to really understand your own experiences or your own emotions, which emotions are information. They give us information about what's wrong and what we need. So if we're taught to ignore those things, and then you pile on purity culture, that your body is bad or don't trust your body, don't feel things in your body, right? It's going to be really hard to be connected enough to yourself to go, I think I have religious trauma. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 24:59

Yeah. 

Kendra Hill 25:01

So at first it might show up as like something just feels really wrong, right? Like, but there might be a lot of conflict. I shouldn't be feeling this way.I shouldn't be feeling this way. There's nothing wrong. There's nothing that should make me feel this way right now. So if there's that, even that kind of struggle, that might be an indicator that like, there's something to pay attention to that's trying to come to the surface. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 25:30

It just strikes me as so fucking convenient that one of the things that is possible to be taught inside of religious communities is you can't trust yourself, but you can trust the leaders. Don't trust yourself. Trust me. I know how to guard you. We know better, right? And in my experience in Mormon land, it was all old white men who knew what was better for me. And that is very convenient.You can't be believed and you should believe me. And then the second thing that your comment brought up for me is you are trustworthy as long as your experiences line up with what the church teaches. But if you have any feelings or inklings or receive any ideas that don't line up with what the church teaches, then you're wrong. So fucking convenient and such a catch-22, right?Because there's no clarity that I can rely on that comes from me. So I might as well just not believe myself and just believe authorities and leaders outside of me. 

Kendra Hill 26:48

Yeah. And that's something I see a lot when I sit with people. And something I really like I work hard to reduce my authority, or even like how people sense that I have authority, because a lot of people who have religious trauma are coming from these environments have an external sense of authority. So it comes from outside of me, not inside of me. And so I have to be really careful with that because of course that would be transferred to me as a therapist or as an expert, right, of some kind. And I don't want that.I really want to help people recognize that, oh my gosh, what if authority doesn't have to just be outside of you? What if you actually can trust yourself?Well, thank you so much. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 27:46

that I really struggled with that idea of having authority in and of myself. It was really something that took me a long time.I felt very disconnected from my ability to know that something was right for me. Like, how do you know something is right? If somebody outside of you doesn't tell you. It was really difficult for me to even look around at other people who seemed to have skills and abilities that I wanted and know, is it okay to become that? Is it okay, for example, in my Christian tradition, feminism was not something that was okay. Is it okay to want that? What if I feel this wanting of some of those ideas and of that worldview, but I will be judged for it? It just all felt really tangled up and hard to decipher even my wants. Well, from what I was told, I should want. 

Kendra Hill 28:47

Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh.Yeah, there's like this constant surveillance of yourself. Yes. So you can't just, you can't just be, you can't just be feeling what you're feeling or experiencing what you're experiencing. It's always these layers of, well, but should I be feeling that or experiencing that or is that okay to feel an experience and, oh, it's exhausting. 

Episode 140 - Being a Highly Sensitive Woman with Allyssya Gossett

In this episode, I talk with coach and host of The Highly Sensitive Woman podcast, Allyssya Gossett. Sensitivity has shaped Allyssya’s life and how she moves through the world, and now she helps other highly sensitive women understand that nothing is “wrong” with them, but that there’s actually incredible strength in the way they’re wired. Today, we talk about what it means to be highly sensitive and how embracing your sensitivity allows you to live more authentically. Here’s what we cover:

• The definition of a highly sensitive person and how to recognize the signs in yourself

• How I discovered my sensitivity after years of not having the language for it

• The wide spectrum of sensitivity and how it shows up differently for everyone

• Barriers that prevent sensitive women from understanding and honoring their needs

• How embracing your sensitivity empowers you to advocate for yourself without shame

• Resources for learning how to take care of yourself as a highly sensitive person 



For decades, Allyssya struggled to believe she was worthy of taking up space in the world. She listened to society’s rules for how she “should” be or feel, made herself small to accommodate others, and tried to put herself in a box just to fit in. Not embracing her true self led to years of debilitating anxiety and depression. Once she embraced who she is and how she was created, Allyssya learned to challenge those old beliefs, stop worrying so much about what others think of her, and step outside her comfort zone so she could confidently live a life she created instead of one chosen for her. The self-acceptance journey fueled her passion for sharing her experiences and knowledge with others as a life coach and podcast host, helping other highly sensitive women just like her let go of self-doubt, find their voice, and live with internal peace and bold confidence.

Find Allyssya here:

info@allyssya.coach 

https://www.instagram.com/lifecoach_allyssya

https://www.facebook.com/lifecoachallyssya 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-highly-sensitive-woman-confidence-set-boundaries

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

 Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57

We get to spend some time in this episode with one of my most favorite people, Allyssya. I'm so glad you're here. Would you please introduce yourself to the audience? 

Allyssya Gossett 01:09

Oh, thank you so much for having me, Sara. My name is Allyssya Gossett. I am a coach and podcast host of The Highly Sensitive Woman, and I do that work because I too am a highly sensitive woman, and that sensitivity has permeated my entire life and how I move through the world, and so I'm just thrilled to be here to talk about that and speak to other highly sensitive women. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:35

I have been really looking forward to this conversation because I've shared with you that I had some sensitivity, that I had no idea was sensitivity, and we can talk a little bit more about the particulars of how I discovered that, but before we do, what is your definition of someone who is highly sensitive or the markers or just what would somebody be looking for if they wanted to know if they are sensitive? 

Allyssya Gossett 02:07

My go-to definition of that for when people ask me, you know, they're in my life and they're like, what does it mean that you're a highly sensitive woman? It's all of my senses are kind of on high alert at all times. And I tend to feel more emotions than the average person.And I feel those emotions deeper and stronger than the average person. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:35

Okay. So more emotion, kind of at a deeper or higher level, and you are picking up on maybe more sound noise, more in your visual field, more all of your senses then seem like they're turned up. Does that feel right? Yes.Okay. When I was trying to figure out like, what is wrong with me? To me, what felt the most overloading was noise. It was like all of the sudden, and I had five kids. So I still have five kids, I guess I should say. They're all still my kids. But when they were all home and it was noisy and it just seemed fine. But then it was like one day, a switch flipped. And I just felt like the level of noise all the time was way too much. And so I started doing some digging and looking into it. And I couldn't really find anything that said like, yeah, you might be highly sensitive because what I was reading was mostly about like, do food textures bother you? Is there scratchy fabrics that you don't like to wear or tags or type clothing? And I thought, no, no, no, I don't really have any of that. And so looking at myself as someone who was sensitive just based on the clue of noise, I didn't really make that connection.Do you find that that is common, that we can be really sensitive in maybe one primary way that kind of takes over and not in other ways? Does that question make sense? 

Allyssya Gossett 04:24

Yes, it makes sense. And yes, I would say that there is most definitely a spectrum and a range. I know when I took like the official, are you a highly sensitive person quiz? I don't remember what the total score is that you can get, but let's pretend it's 20. I got a 19. Like there is no doubt whatsoever that I'm a highly sensitive person and I, I guess, tracked in every area.But for sure, some people might not be as sensitive in some of their senses as others. Even as a highly sensitive person, my fragrance sensitivity, for example, is extremely high. And I have some friends who are highly sensitive women, some clients, and that one isn't necessarily as heightened for them. I also notice that you, you, you mentioned fabrics. There are times when I can wear certain clothes that are in my closet. And there are other times when my nervous system is a little more heightened and I'm like, I cannot wear this today. It's too scratchy. And so even within a person on a given day or a season that they are in in their life, they might find that their senses are more or less heightened because maybe some others are a little more heightened at the time. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 05:44

So I love that explanation. And I find that that is, you know, true for me as well. And I think, you know, you named the, I think the most important part, which is where is my nervous system? And if it feels fairly regulated, if it feels fairly like I have a good connection to myself, then I do tend.That's like the day I go to Costco, you know, where it just feels like overwhelming stimulation. I still put my Apple AirPods in and I put them on noise cancellation. And I don't make eye contact with anybody. But those are the Costco days for me. But then there are other days where it already feels like there is such a load. I'm either stressed or I'm tired, or I just feel extra worried. And so yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense for me. Why would it matter for someone listening to know if they are sensitive or not? 

Allyssya Gossett 06:41

Oh goodness, there are so many reasons. One, and this was a huge one for me, is in the United States in particular, we don't really celebrate the highly sensitive people, we celebrate the people who go through the world and break rules and kind of are outspoken and pushing boundaries and those types of things. And when someone is, I don't know, watching a movie and they get emotional and tear up, we're like, oh, don't be so sensitive, right? Like we're just not celebrated in the United States and it's sort of viewed as a negative thing.So knowing that you are a highly sensitive person can be helpful in that it can give words to what you are experiencing and it can help you not feel so alone and so broken because you recognize that it's not just you and that you aren't this weird outlier or like you have said, super special, extra broken, right? That there are lots of people like you and we just happen to live in the United States in a country that doesn't really celebrate that type of person. It also shows up in the way that you interact with people and your relationships because your nervous system just often cannot manage the conflict that can come with not being a people pleaser and not just agreeing to whatever the circumstances may be or whatever's being presented to you. And so your nervous system is kind of always on high alert and what you end up doing in conjunction with your senses being stimulated and then trying to avoid conflict, a lot of times you withdraw and so you don't have those relationships that you so desperately crave because as a highly sensitive person, you're not really super interested in surface level conversations. You wanna get to the really good stuff but there's so many barriers that come from all this messaging and stimulation and people pleasing that it gets in the way of those relationships and that just contributes more to the feeling like you're broken and isolating and it just becomes this perpetual cycle. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 09:10

I love that explanation because I think, well, I'm actually remembering, I have a close friend and there was a book that came out several years ago now, it's called Quiet about, are you familiar with it? Yeah. It's about being an introvert in a world built for extroverts, right? Extrovertism is celebrated and rewarded and kind of held up as the way we should be, the way to be successful, the way to make friends and influence people and the way to get the best jobs and have the best relationships.And she read this book and I remember her telling me about it with tears in her eyes, like, I identify with I'm an introvert. And she had the name and she's like, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm just moving through a world that is not made for me. And I imagine there's a lot of overlap between introverts and sensitivity, sensitive people. And to move through the world with the constant feedback that there is something wrong with you, you're too emotional, you're too quiet, you're too withdrawn, you're too fill in the blank only makes sensitive people withdraw more because it's not safe to be constantly trying to put yourself out there if you're just getting slapped on the hand or told that you're doing it wrong. And so to have a name for it, to have a kind of framework for this is how I am and it's okay, and it's not even just okay, it's perfectly valid, right? It doesn't need to be explained, it doesn't need to be proven as valid, it is valid just because it is your experience that that must be really important for people to have. 

Allyssya Gossett 10:56

Yes. And highly sensitive people make up about 20% of the population.And of those, about 70% of us are introverts. And interestingly enough, I always identified strictly as an introvert, as I was going through life and then in discovering being a highly sensitive person and actually having words and definitions to it and learning how to manage it better and have skills to regulate my nervous system and to have those difficult conversations. I have noticed that I've shifted more into an ambivert and there are definitely times where being around people does energize me. And so it's just interesting to me that maybe, maybe we truly are an introvert, but maybe some of it just comes because we've gotten all of that messaging and we don't quite know how to deal with it, that we could get energized by being around people and we could be capable of more. We just aren't quite there yet. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:00

The other thing that kind of comes to mind, my youngest son, whenever he was overwhelmed when he was young, he would just burst into tears. And he would just sit down on the floor and just burst into tears. And there was no moving him until he was ready, until he had gotten it all out. And I remember I had a friend over and she didn't really scold him, him directly. But she said, oh, yeah, that one cries a lot, doesn't he? You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to like, how did she say it? Kind of like work that out of him. And I remember just thinking, I don't even know how I would. Like this is just, like, what am I gonna do? Punish him when he's already upset, he's already, and so what I ended up doing was kind of redesigning how I interacted with him differently than my other kids who didn't have that same reaction to overwhelm.And I didn't know that that was, I mean, he might be highly sensitive. I guess I shouldn't just assume just by that one trait, but the other, I think, big plus in learning this about yourself is that you can design your life to work with those sensitivities and not always be trying to overcome them as if there's something wrong with you. Because when he would get upset, I would just kind of stop everything and sit with him and rub his back. And I would say, do you want me to stay here or go away and come back? And I would let him decide. And so we kind of redesigned how we interacted based on that trait of his. And I would think it would be really important for people to know this about themselves so that they can do some of that for themselves and make their life easier. 

Allyssya Gossett 13:50

Yes. And I say all the time, all emotions come out of me in tears. And a very typical response to that from the other person is, oh, don't cry. And I very politely now have the words to say, it's okay that I'm crying.Or something that I learned from you is to proactively, when the tears start to fall, say, you'll notice that I'm crying. It's because I care so much. And by allowing myself the freedom to cry when I need to, I notice I don't actually cry as much, which is kind of interesting. And even when I do cry, I a lot of times have more control over the tears. You know, it's more of like a slow stream than a full-on sob, although a full-on sob definitely has its place and can be very cathartic for sure. But I'm able to, because I'm not trying to shove the tears down, and I'm not shaming myself internally for crying, and I'm not allowing the other person to shame me either. I'm able to articulate what emotion I'm feeling. I'm able to find the words a little more readily in the moment. And yes, to your point, that has been life-changing for me, because that was such a big thing. Oh, don't let them see me cry, regardless of what emotion I was feeling. And I still get pretty angry if I'm crying because I'm angry. But I will then say that. I'm angry, and I'm crying, and now I'm angry because I'm crying. But I'm angry, and this is why I'm angry. And before, I couldn't put words to it, because I was just so embarrassed that I was crying that that kind of overrode all of the other emotions that I was feeling. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:38

Okay, I love that, what you just shared, because what I heard was, you're not only advocating for your needs. I need to cry and I need to let this out. You're understanding why it happens to you and you're able to explain it. And you're able to recognize it as something that is good about you. It's a strength that you're able to feel this way. And you just have a better understanding of why you need things that other people might not, in addition to, you know, quiet and downtime.But like, to emote, to let this out, and you're able to stop other people from kind of dumping their expectations or their discomfort on you when they say, Oh, don't cry, it's okay. Because their issues are their issues. And their discomfort is theirs to deal with. And it just seems like you're able to have much more of your own kind of grounded, connected experience, which is what I wonder if that's kind of behind the way that you own it so beautifully. And you're like, this is what I need. I need to cry. I need to let this out. And if you're uncomfortable with it, that's yours to deal with. That's not mine. 

Allyssya Gossett 16:59

Yes. And it took me a very long time to get there and it has certainly ebbed and flowed. But now I do see all of the things that come with it, you know, the empathy and the compassion that I'm able to have for other people. For so long, I saw that as a bad thing.And now I really celebrate it and I recognize that I, it's kind of a package deal, right? Like I can't turn off my sensitivities to the extent that I would sometimes very much like to without turning off some of those other traits that really make me who I am and allow me to be the kind of friend and partner and coach that I am. And I don't want to turn it off now. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:48

Isn't that amazing to have really come into your own, yourself, who you are, what you offer and to really appreciate like the whole ecosystem of emotions and emotional intelligence that you are. I think that's such, that's so incredible that you are able to have that, that you're able to help your clients develop that because we do tend to want like the quote unquote good things about our personality without understanding the other parts of our personalities or our upbringing or experiences that those are attached to.Like I couldn't be, I'm speaking as if are you, I couldn't be Allyssya, the person who feels deeply and loves deeply and connects deeply without this sensitivity. 

Allyssya Gossett 18:38

Yes. And I think when I finally understood that, that was when things really started to change. And I want to be clear that there are still days where it's hard and there are still days when I wish I could flip the switch and turn it off.But as a whole, I just am finally comfortable in my own skin and don't see myself as being broken or like I was made wrong. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:07

Yeah, if you're comfortable, you know, answering this next question with personal experience, great. If you want to talk about client experience, you know, whatever feels most relevant, but I'm really interested in what obstacles are in the way for someone who is highly sensitive to really understand and honor that about themselves.Like why, why is it so hard to come to that place where you feel like I'm a valid person with a valid experience that matters just as much as everybody else? 

Allyssya Gossett 19:42

I think it's hard because it has been ingrained in us from the very beginning, in our day to day lives. Sometimes it's from the adults, sometimes it's from our peers. And then society as a whole has just been giving us that messaging over and over and over again. And so it is really hard to undo that programming and really hard to kind of rewire those very deeply worn grooves in our brains that our way is wrong and we should be different. And that process is bumpy.When you're trying to kind of rewire the thought patterns and to understand that your nervous system and how it's responding is not wrong. It's just really, really hard to do. And it takes time and sometimes having the patience to ride the wave and knowing that there won't be one day where the switch flips and you're like, oh my goodness, this is the best thing ever. And I love everything about myself and that you never revert back and that you never have those low points. And I can speak for myself that when those low points come, it used to be very devastating. When those low points would come again, I'd be like, oh, I thought I had fixed it. I thought I was never going to have to revisit this again. I thought I was past it. At this age in my life, I should be fill in the blank, right? And I think when I began to understand that there will be times where I'll be in that low spot again and that it will be hard again, allows me to not compound it with the shame and blame of here you are again and see here's some more evidence of why. And I see this coming up with my clients too, and we have to work through the ebb and the flow and understanding that that's totally normal and that each time that we might go kind of into that low place, we don't stay there as long. Maybe we don't go as deep and we're able to get to a place of accepting this is how I'm wired and this is who I am and we're able to get to that place much sooner and the time in between the kind of falling into the valley and kind of bouncing back up to the acceptance is much shorter. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:34

That is so I see so much overlap there. I obviously talk a lot about good girl programming, right? Good girl rules. And I think about the way that our upbringing just kind of really sets up what is good, what is bad, what is rewarded, what is punished. And I was really rewarded for production, like doing stuff like get it done, get it done, get it done, get it done. There's always more, there's always more. And the more you can do, the better, which I think had me just overriding a lot of my fatigue, a lot of my need to rest, my desire for play, right?When you're working all, you know, so hard. You just, you look at people around you playing and you get mad. Because they're like, wasting time when work could be getting done. And so I think back to like the particular way that I was programmed to not pay attention. To any sensitivity, because really, it's sensitivity that gets in the way of like, the big capitalist machine, you know, that we're all just cogs in feels like that. And so when we look at like people pleasing in particular, this, this kind of way that we live out those good girl rules. Where do you see sensitivity and people pleasing kind of overlapping? What's the Venn diagram look like there? 

Allyssya Gossett 24:04

I think one of the biggest ones is because we are so sensitive to everything that's going on around us, we very quickly pick up on a shift, a shift in someone else's mood, a shift in the emotions of the room. And because of that, our bodies are like, uh oh. And so then we immediately kind of go into, what did I do wrong? And what do I need to fix? And so we just very, very seamlessly slide right into people pleasing and assume that that shift is a result of something we did or did not do. And so we're going to do whatever we can to correct it. And it may or may not have anything to do with us, but that's where I see probably the biggest overlap is because we can pick up on those subtle differences so, so easily. We're just real quick to shift into people pleasing. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 25:04

Yeah, is there kind of the default? Well, I know there is in like good girl rules where you automatically think when something is off, it's my fault or I have to fix it.Does that feel similar for people who are highly sensitive? Does it feel turned up? Is it a higher feeling of threat or needing to fix this or it's my fault? 

Allyssya Gossett 25:28

I think there's definitely some of that and then there's also because there's so much empathy and compassion like we almost want to like take it on so that the other person isn't feeling whatever it is that they are feeling in this very unhealthy way for sure but and it's not even conscious much of the time especially if you've never had words to it but for sure like we we want to help and so it's it's the combination of I want to fix it and I don't want there to be anything wrong and then at the same time like I have so much compassion and empathy for you like I just want to help you and so I'm going to take it on for you. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:14

Okay, that's so interesting. Yeah, that kind of double-edged way in which your sensitivity shows up to try to make things better. I feel like there must also be a lot of masking going on. Pretending, because if someone has sensitivities that they don't either know where they come from, or they can't appreciate them as a valuable part of themselves, and they're being told, this is bad, this is wrong, you shouldn't be this way, then I'm guessing that there is a lot of pretending or performing that's happening.Does that feel right as well? Oh, for sure. 

Allyssya Gossett 27:00

Yes. And sometimes we can do that better than others. You know, there are times where we can perform or we can pretend like everything's okay. And people around us have no idea. And I know that I sort of wore that as a badge of honor for a lot of years. I, many, many years ago, had a pretty significant kind of breakdown and my nervous system had reached its limit. And I had to take some time off of work and really get the care that I needed. And I remember everyone around me being like, we had no idea. And I was so proud of myself that they had no idea how much I was suffering behind closed doors. And we're just very, very good at it because we have learned as we're going through life, you know, that the sensitivity isn't necessarily a good thing. And so you've got to keep that hidden. And so you just, you become kind of a natural performer. And then it's interesting now because like, I don't want to perform. I want people to see the raw real me, not to an inappropriate level by any means. Certainly there are things that I keep private, but because I want this to become such a norm in people's lives and for them to accept highly sensitive people, like I pulled the mask down and I want people to see it and really celebrate it and just show that there are different ways to be in the world. And I almost can't put it up even when I feel like it would probably be very appropriate. I almost just can't do it anymore. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 28:55

that feel for you to be able to live that way. I mean, going from having a breakdown and being proud that your coworkers and friends didn't know how much you were suffering to where you are now of like, I actually can't put that mask or that I can't do that performing anymore.What does that like for you? 

Allyssya Gossett 29:16

uh it's kind of exhilarating and very freeing and I finally feel like I'm living life and not just existing and kind of going through the motions. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 29:31

Yeah. And you know what? That is what women want, right? They just want to be able to find out who am I really, what do I really want to do with my one wild precious life with the, you know, the time that I have.And I love that you feel that so deeply. And I love that that's what you are able to help your clients achieve because that journey from what, if there's something wrong with me, I think there is something wrong with me that like I'm extra special, super broken too. I am living the life that I want to be living. And if other people have thoughts about it, that's there is to deal with not mine is so joyful. And it's so, um, it's also hard, right? There's, there's also things to overcome and feel, but the joy on your face and the joy that I have seen you experience, the joy that I've experienced as I have, you know, kind of come home to that real version of myself. Um, there's, there's nothing, there's nothing like it. 

Allyssya Gossett 30:37

There isn't and you know, you mentioned time like it's so so precious and I feel like I lost so much time in my 20s and my 30s that I don't want to waste time anymore pretending and it's really cool to see my clients doing the same and I just want to say that.And this has come up for me it's come up for my clients like I should be here by a certain point and so I just want to say that yes, I mean I was fortunate enough to finally start shifting in my 40s some people are lucky enough that they're recognizing that they're highly sensitive women in their 20s and some are maybe in their 60s 70s 80s and it is never too late. To finally have words to what it means to be a highly sensitive person and to really start to celebrate that so that you can live however much time because none of us are guaranteed tomorrow regardless of our age right so however much time that you can be living it the way that you want to be living it. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 31:40

So if someone is curious about their own sensitivities, right? I think we all kind of notice things about ourselves and we're like, huh, is that a thing or is that not a thing?Maybe it's a thing. Maybe it's not either way in terms of the sensitivity conversation that we're having, where would you suggest that they either start learning more about being a highly sensitive person and then once they discover that perhaps they are, how would they begin to take better care of that part of them or honor that part of them? What would you tell them? 

Allyssya Gossett 32:17

Um, and there is a website, the highly sensitive person, there's a book. I took a quiz and that's how I first, um, discovered it. And I love this work so much.I started a podcast, the highly sensitive woman. And so I'm talking about all of these things and giving, you know, tips for how to protect your nervous system and regulate it and learn how to manage your senses as you are trying new activities and those types of things. And I think the first thing is understanding that you are not alone. There are 20% of the entire population. So millions of people are just like you and it is to be celebrated the way that you are wired. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 33:10

So understanding how to regulate and protect their nervous system seems to be really central to this. Why is it such a central part of having a different experience as a highly sensitive person? 

Allyssya Gossett 33:26

Because when your nervous system is so dysregulated, you don't want to do the things, right? Like when your nervous system is heightened, kind of like you were saying you don't go to Costco on certain days, right? There are certain things that you don't want to do and so you're missing out.There are certain conversations that you don't want to have and so you're not able to necessarily build the relationships or the type of relationships that you want to have. You find yourself doing a lot of things that you don't want to do or not doing a lot of things that you do want to do. You're spending a lot of time ruminating about conversations that you did have and so the dysregulated nervous system kind of gets in the way of pretty much everything and so learning how to regulate and manage your nervous system in a way that honors your sensitivity and allows you to have the conversations that you want to have and do the things that you want to do and not do the things that you don't want to do is critical. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 34:32

So, if someone was interested in finding out more about how you teach that and working with you, where would they go to find that out? 

Allyssya Gossett 34:43

When they can listen to the Highly Sensitive Woman podcast, I am also on Instagram at Life Coach Allyssya, and they can send me a message and we could have a conversation, info at Allyssya.coach, and we can just see if we would be a good fit to work together. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:02

Anyone who got to work with you would just be so lucky because you are not only just a fantastic human, but such a good coach. I have had the chance to work with you personally.Yes, if that is interesting to you, I would really highly recommend that people do that. As we wrap up the conversation, is there anything else that you either wanted to say that you didn't get a chance to or just want to make sure we put into words? 

Allyssya Gossett 35:31

I think if you are listening and you suspect that you are a highly sensitive person, I would highly encourage you to explore that further and get a better understanding because living with that mask on and trying to pretend like your way is bad is really getting in the way of an incredible gift that you have and truly some superpowers. I want you to be able to tap into those superpowers that are your sensitivity and use them in the most incredible way. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 36:08

I love that. I'm thinking back to just honoring the fact that, you know, this one part of me, it really does seem to be for me, my sensitivities is mostly around noise and big crowds of people. And I can really just confidently say that's a no for me.And to really feel like that is deeply honoring of myself and of my capacity without saying that it should be different. I should want to go do that. I should be able to handle that. I just don't do that anymore. I find that the experience that I am able to have when I honor that part of myself is actually fun for me, is actually rejuvenating, is actually pleasurable. And I just don't have to pretend anymore, which does, isn't that what we all really, really want to stop pretending and performing. 

Allyssya Gossett 37:05

Yes, and I can relate to so much of that. I'm able to enjoy things that I used to say I would never be able to enjoy because of my sensitivity and it's because I've learned to embrace it and work with it instead of fighting against it that allows me to do so much more than I ever thought that I was capable of doing and I'm seeing that with my clients too and it it's just

Sara Bybee Fisk 37:28

so good. It is just so good. Yes. Well, thank you, Allyssya.I hope that this conversation, I wish I could have had this conversation with someone or listened to it years ago, because I think it would have just given me a framework for something that I just had no idea. I'm like, what is wrong with me? Why is this thing so hard for me? So I'm really grateful that you would take the time to have this conversation. 

Allyssya Gossett 37:54

Thank you so much for having me Sara, truly a pleasure anytime I get to chat with you. 

Episode 139 - A Four-Step Plan for a Holiday That Actually Feels Good

We all want the holidays to feel meaningful and connected, but the pressure to meet expectations often pulls us away from what truly matters to us. Between obligations, traditions, cooking, cleaning, and planning, we often miss out on quality time with the people we care about or a chance to rest. If you’re exhausted just thinking about putting on another holiday for everyone else, this episode will walk you through a simple four-step framework to help you create the holiday season you actually want. Here’s what I cover:

• Why people-pleasing is at an all-time high during the holidays

• Three questions to help you pause and ask yourself what you truly want

• How to predict the discomfort that comes with prioritizing yourself

• An exercise to write down what support you need to make the holiday you want possible

• How to mentally rehearse the holiday and regulate your nervous system beforehand

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

Somehow, it's November, and somehow Thanksgiving is next week. And despite my shock that here's where we are in 2025, I wanted to do a short and very useful episode about how to have the holidays you want without people pleasing, because it is one of the times of the year where I hear the same thing from a lot of my clients and a lot of women.

 01:29

I want my holidays to feel meaningful and connected. I want to enjoy the people that I'm with. I want to have time with family that I don't get to see during the rest of the year. My kids come home from college or my family comes in from out of state. 

 01:47

I take time off work. Like I spend a lot of time and effort on the holidays, but somehow I always end up feeling overwhelmed, resentful. And it feels like there's like years of backlogged resentment that comes up and doing things for other people that either weren't on my list or I don't really want to do and I don't know how to get out of that. 

 02:10

So if you have felt like that, this episode is for you because the holidays are a very normal time when people pleasing can be at an all-time high. We are wrestling with the expectations that everybody has, right? 

 02:26

And not just the family members, but our cultural expectations that holidays should be magical, that holidays should be peaceful and connecting and where there's just so much expectation and hopes and dreams kind of tied up in the holiday seasons. 

 02:43

There's traditions that we're trying to navigate. There's my family's traditions. There's other people's family traditions. There's obligations. This is when a lot of holiday parties and gatherings and events pop up. 

 02:56

And there's the feeling like I want to be at all of them or I should be at all of them, obligation, fear, guilt, fear of missing out, fear of disappointing people. So it can really kind of be a pressure cooker time for a lot of us who want to have the magical holiday and who are also kind of tired of putting on holidays for other people, right? 

 03:22

We have a lot of years under our belt where we're the ones who do all of the back end work, all of the planning, all the organizing, all of the inviting, all of the scheduling, all of the buying, all of the wrapping, all of the cooking, all of the cleaning. 

 03:34

I mean, I'm exhausted. And that's just, you know, beginning of the episode where we're talking about everything that we end up making ourselves responsible for. So I want you to know, if this has been your experience of the holidays, you're not doing it wrong. 

 03:49

There's nothing wrong with you. It's the perfect storm of all of that internalized pressure and external pressure, social pressure, family pressure, expectations pressure. So what I want to do today is walk you through a pretty straightforward four-step framework that will help kind of put a structure around creating the holiday season you want. 

 04:16

It's not going to go perfectly. So let's just, let's just let that go right now. Okay. You're going to take from this episode a couple of ideas that feel really relevant to you and you're going to try it out. 

 04:28

And you're going to have a little bit of a different experience. And then you're just going to keep trying it in your daily life. Okay. So this comes straight out of a workbook that I have created for past holiday workshops that I used to do around this pressure. 

 04:44

And I'm going to figure out how to get that workbook to you. So stay tuned for that. So step number one is your job to do. You have to pause. You can't stop people pleasing if you don't know what you want. 

 05:01

Because if you don't know what you want, you're just going to default to what everybody else wants. So instead of defaulting to the holiday you think you are quote unquote supposed to have, I want you to pause and ask yourself three questions. 

 05:14

Number one, what would make this holiday season meaningful for me? Question number two, who do I want to connect with? And question number three, what values matter to me most right now? And that can be gathering specific. 

 05:36

If I choose to go to a work holiday party, what would make that meaningful for me? Who do I want to connect with at that work gathering? And what values to me matter most at that work gathering? Family gathering, same questions. 

 05:52

What would make it meaningful? Who do I want to connect with? And what values do I think are important that really need to come to the forefront during that particular gathering? By doing a little bit of this thinking beforehand, we can actually make decisions that will get us the outcome that we want. 

 06:13

So for example, last year, what mattered most to me during my Thanksgiving gathering was that I got to spend time with my college-age kids and that I didn't have to contribute to a lot of the cooking and cleaning up. 

 06:27

And so answering those questions ahead of time was what allowed me to make the decisions that I did that made last Thanksgiving my most meaningful Thanksgiving yet. And so if you could only prioritize three things this season, what would they be? 

 06:47

That's another way of kind of scaling down because I know each of you are looking at possibly a mountain of other people's expectations, a mountain of things that you've done in the past, all the decorating, all the cooking, all the shopping, right? 

 07:02

And it's not that those things are bad. It's that when we aren't specific about what we want, what we, what you want, we're going to default to what everybody else wants. So step number one is to pause and answer those questions. 

 07:17

Step number two is to predict. Every holiday choice has an emotion attached to it. And avoiding discomfort is what fuels people pleasing. So if I choose, let's go back to the choices I made last year for my Thanksgiving gathering, that I want to prioritize people over food, what that means is I might get some questions about why we're having non-traditional, easier to make food or why. 

 07:47

And actually what I did last year was I just asked for help and my brother-in-law stepped in and he made almost the entire Thanksgiving dinner with some help from kids. I didn't do a thing, but it wasn't until I knew what I wanted and I was willing to feel uncomfortable asking for it that I got that great Thanksgiving that we had last year. 

 08:10

So step number two is really just about predicting the discomfort that you're going to feel when you narrow it down, when you prioritize what you want. There's going to be some discomfort there. There is no version of the holidays that doesn't include uncomfortable emotions. 

 08:32

Because right now, you're the one feeling most of the discomfort because you're doing all the cooking, the planning, the cleaning, the scheduling, the shopping, the wrapping. See what I mean? Like you're carrying all of that discomfort right now. 

 08:45

And so in this new version of the holidays, you are choosing to switch to a different kind of discomfort where you feel maybe a little guilty that you're not offering the 14 course Thanksgiving meal that includes all of your family favorites and traditional foods. 

 09:02

That is a choice you can make because the discomfort of overextending yourself, that's one type of discomfort that happens when we say yes to everything. And when we say no, you might have to deal with the possible discomfort of knowing you're disappointing people or knowing that they were wishing things were different. 

 09:23

But this particular step stops this fantasy idea that there's a perfect painless option because you've just been paying the full price of the discomfort. And so by narrowing it a little bit and by putting some of what you want into the holiday, it spreads that around a little bit. 

 09:41

Step number three, you're going to plan. You're going to choose your discomfort on purpose and you are going to identify specifically where you feel the pressure to overextend yourself. Write down the changes you want to make. 

 09:58

Write down and decide what support you will need and what conversations need to happen. And if you need to script the words, you're going to want to use the say what you want to say process. And I have a whole podcast episode just on how to do that. 

 10:16

So I'm going to give you some example phrases right now. You might say, you know what, I'm going to keep the holidays a little more simple this year. Or, you know what, I'm not able to host, but I'd love to bring a dish. 

 10:30

Or thanks for understanding. Rest is really a priority for me this season. Or my priority this Thanksgiving dinner is really connecting with so-and-so or really spending some time doing such and such. 

 10:44

Once you identify what you want and identify the changes and support you need, write it down and put it into words. Then you're going to spend a little bit of time letting your nervous system process and practice whatever new discomfort you're going to step into. 

 11:06

Because if you don't practice and process that emotion, that's when we abandon the plan. So what that means is you're going to notice how it feels in your body to think about putting your new holiday plan into motion. 

 11:23

You're going to connect with your body, hands on your chest, if you don't have anywhere else that feels really good. And you're just going to breathe in and out intentionally and notice, oh my gosh, I'm feeling really nervous because I've told everybody that I'm not going to do a big Thanksgiving dinner anymore because I'm prioritizing connection with my college kids. 

 11:46

I'm noticing I'm feeling really nervous about this asking for the kind of help that I want preparing the dinner. I'm noticing some guilt coming up. And you're just going to give yourself a chance before you even have any of these conversations, give yourself a chance to feel it on your own, hands on your body, love and generosity, and talk to yourself with compassion. 

 12:11

I'm right here with you. Gosh, that makes so much sense that you're feeling nervous about this. You know what? You're not alone in this. I'm going to be right here with you and I'm listening. Your nervous system has to feel supported if you're going to say new things, right? 

 12:28

Make new decisions, set new boundaries, or create new traditions. And it really matters that you take the time to do that behind the scenes first. The next step, you're going to do some mental rehearsal, right? 

 12:43

I want you to visualize yourself in the holiday that you want. Mental rehearsal is one of the most powerful tools for changing habits. I want you to see yourself prioritizing. Let's go back to the Thanksgiving example I've been using. 

 13:03

So I want to picture myself asking for help. I want to just let that discomfort and that guilt be there. I want to picture myself intentionally making choices to spend time with the people that I want. 

 13:18

And then I'm going to rehearse it like a movie so my brain can stop resisting the change and my body gets a chance to feel the emotions that need to happen so that I can actually say and do things differently. 

 13:37

So when you're watching this movie, you're seeing yourself having the holiday you want. You're seeing yourself saying the hard things, the different things, feeling the emotion and staying connected. 

 13:50

That is the behind the scenes work. And then the last step is you just got to say the words. I'm so happy that we get together for Thanksgiving. And this year, I don't want to do all of the cooking and cleaning up. 

 14:04

What can we do about that? Or I'm so happy you're all coming home for Thanksgiving. I want to make sure that I spend some time one-on-one with you. How can we make that happen? Because saying those words, that's actually the last step after we take really good care of ourselves behind the scenes. 

 14:24

So hopefully this will give you some holiday clarity. Pausing, predicting, planning, and then processing those emotions, and then all before you say that will really help you create connection without self-betrayal, which is where we end up feeling resentful and angry that I'm doing it again this Christmas or this Thanksgiving or this Hanukkah or whatever, just like I did last year. 

 14:49

And we want to break the cycle of having holidays that don't feel fulfilling where we feel like we end up just putting on a holiday for someone else. So you deserve a holiday that feels like you. And if you want the workbook that I mentioned, go ahead and just send me an email so that you can do this work for yourself behind the scenes. 

 15:14

So that when we get to New Year's Day and beyond, you look back at a holiday season that was deeply fulfilling and deeply impactful for you and your loved ones. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.

Episode 138 - Grief Isn’t Linear: Learning to Carry What You’ve Lost with Krista St-Germain

Many of us know that grief isn’t linear, yet so much of what we’re taught still has us trying to get it “right.” In this conversation, I’m joined by Krista St-Germain, life coach, grief guide for widows, and host of The Widowed Mom Podcast. Krista shares how she helps women navigate grief with self-compassion, gentleness, and kindness, and stop making themselves wrong for what they feel. This episode isn’t just for those who’ve lost a spouse, but for anyone navigating loss and learning not to “fix” their feelings, but to create more capacity to hold them. Here’s what we cover:

• Why grief can’t be defined by the familiar “stages” and why it doesn’t end with acceptance

• How healing comes from increasing your capacity to support yourself, not from trying to change what you feel

• What secondary losses look like and how they reveal the ongoing nature of grief

• How to stop making yourself wrong for what you feel and practice meeting your emotions with compassion instead

• Why we sometimes feel uncomfortable around grief and how to show up for others in a way that is truly helpful

• How mentioning someone’s loss shows you remember and why that can mean so much

• The importance of normalizing sadness and modeling healthy grief, especially for children



Find Krista here:

https://www.coachingwithkrista.com/happier-holidays-for-widowed-moms/ 

https://www.coachingwithkrista.com/podcast/

https://www.instagram.com/lifecoachkrista/ 

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:58

True story, Krista St-Germain, you are one of my very most favorite people on the planet. If you're watching a little clip of this, we match today, so I feel like there's...

Krista St-Germain 01:09
Well, it's so ironic because you are one of my favorite people on the planet. So it works.

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:15

It works for us. Krista, we've had a couple of conversations before. One on this podcast about how helpful you were to me during a time of intense grief and how much coaching helped me. You're a coach for a living. You work with women who have recently lost partners. What do you want people to know about, like, why were you drawn to that? Why do you do that work?

Krista St-Germain 01:39

Well, yeah, I mean, I wasn't, it wasn't part of any sort of long plan. No. So my husband died, right? So in 2016, swimmingly life was going swimmingly. And then we took this trip and we came back from that trip. And on the way back, he was trying to change a flat tire on my car and was hit by a drunk driver and he died, you know, less than a day later.So I didn't really even have grief on the purview at all until I just had my own grief experience. And so much of that was so much harder than it needed to be. And there was a lot more suffering than there needed to be, because what I later learned was that, you know, what I thought I understood about grief was pretty outdated and not very helpful. And so really it just came from this idea that if I could help people with that, they could have an easier experience. I had no idea that the five stages of grief wasn't the way that grief went. I really thought that's what it was going to be like. And, you know, there's a lot, a lot of other things that I learned too, but yeah, that's why I just wanted people to have better experiences.

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:52
So interesting because, man, we humans love some stages, don't we?

Krista St-Germain 02:56

Well, yeah. I mean, I didn't get that because it would be nice. It totally would be nice.

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:01

Yeah. Yeah. It was very linear. You complete stage one, then you go to stage two, then stage three, you can have a sense of like, I'm making progress, this makes sense. I really understand it. How do you think it impacted you to think that there were stages and then to then realize, oh, maybe it doesn't work like this?

Krista St-Germain 03:27

Well, I definitely felt some resistance to the idea that it wouldn't work like that because if it, if there is no end place called acceptance, then what is there? What does that mean? What does that look like? And so it just felt a little too wide open.You know, I would have preferred that it be clearly defined and objective and it kind of, well, it was not super comfortable for me. And also personally, I was the type of person who wanted to get the A, you know, and be the star in the class. And I kind of went into grief, like I'm, I'm going to show them, like I'm going to, I'm going to do this and, and it's going to be the best it's ever been done. And I'm going to read the books and do the things. And, and so that was kind of disappointing too, because that was where I had found safety in the past was kind of that performative, validated sense. And it just wasn't available. So fairly uncomfortable.

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:24

Yeah, and I just can't help but think about like grief itself is this unwieldy, it feels endless, it feels for a lot of people, I know it felt like this for me, just like this black pool of bottomlessness that once I go in there, I'm never coming out. And so if there isn't this place called acceptance where I just get to go and that's the end of it, those two things together, like there's no stages where I'm just going to get to some kind of quantifiable clearly defined end, that would make grief a lot easier, I think, to at least conceptually go into because you're like, okay, there's this end to it.I'm almost to the end, I'm getting there. And so if there isn't the end of it, what is there?

Krista St-Germain 05:18

Yeah, I think there's a capacity that gets built. There's a capacity to carry it. There's a capacity to feel it. There's a capacity to think about it with intention to decide who you want to be in it. And there's an integration that happens. So we go from not, not from being sad to being grateful or sad to being happy, but we go from being sad and

believing that we'll fall into the pit of sadness and never come out to, to realizing that, Oh, I actually can allow the sadness to be there because it will always be, but we kind of develop a relationship with it, make peace with it. And I do think it gets less intense over time, typically. And then we also go from a what the hell even happened to me. And I am completely powerless in this to recognizing that, yes, there are many things I'm powerless about, but also I get to choose what I want to think about this, what I want to make it mean in my life and who I want to be. Given that it happened, I get to use what I went through as a way to kind of inventory my life and the way that I'm living and make sure I like it. And if I don't align with, you know, what I value, so it can be a still brutal and also a beautiful opportunity to reconnect with what's important to you and make sure that you're living what matters to you.

Sara Bybee Fisk 06:49

I think that is really beautiful, especially because grief usually happens because of something that you didn't choose. This thing that I didn't choose has now changed my life forever. And I do think it makes a lot of sense that there's a feeling of maybe powerlessness or what the fuck? Or just like how did this happen? And so to be able to find a place even in that where there's a choice, deciding who I want to be, having some intention about even how I think about it, that's such a beautiful place to even think about getting to. And I think a lot of the women that I work with who are experiencing grief, it actually brings out at first a lot of their people pleasing tendencies like performing and pretending and overdoing as a way to cope with it when they're still in that powerlessness of it.

Krista St-Germain 08:02

Oh, 100%. And yeah, I think about conversations I've had with clients, especially clients who have been in like higher control faiths. Oh, the performative nature, the, the, I remember somebody telling me a story about having somebody from their ward over to the house. It was like someone in leadership and I don't remember the position. And I mean, her husband had just died and it was all about is the house clean enough and what are they going to think and you know, holding it together.And just the Ike, you could just feel the amount of pressure that was in her body of trying to make sure that other people were, were pleased with how she was grieving. And that's pretty sadly common.

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:47

Yeah. I'm thinking about conversations that I've had with clients who are in grief where, you know, this performing or pretending or like we just, we just got to keep going, got to keep marching on. And a lot of times it actually just amplifies all of kind of the

freneticness because there's this grief underneath, right? Kind of this like constant underground movement of grief. And then they just try and cover it up and cover it up and cover it up and cover it up with a clean house, with being put together so they look like they're grieving well or showing up for their kids with lots of activities and distractions and all of this from a place of like, I think this is the right thing to do. I think this is helpful.I think my children need to know that there's still things, you know, to live for if their father has passed away or I think my children still need to know that there's things to live for if we are no longer going to the same church we used to go to or if there's been some other kind of loss in the family. And so it ends up creating just this soup of pressure and exhaustion and overdoing because I don't think, well, I'll just ask you, why do you think that happens?

Krista St-Germain 10:17

I mean, I think it's because we're coping and we're doing the best we can with what we know in the moment.Like nobody taught us how to do it any other way. And so it makes a whole lot of sense that we would try to outrun the grief or avoid it with, you know, keeping ourselves busy or distracting or any, any, any other number of things that work temporarily.So it's like a survival strategy.It's a coping strategy. And you know, for a while it might be more helpful than not for some people, but I think most people reach a point where they realize, okay, I, part of me sees that if I don't slow down and let myself feel some of this, I'm going to burn out, it's too much.I'm running myself into the ground.And then there's another part that is quite afraid of slowing down long enough to feel it or deal with whatever's inside.And, but you start to see the scale kind of tipping in one direction where it's like, uh, I better learn this skill.I better figure this out for myself. Otherwise, you know, the trajectory of burnout and depletion is not good. And then, then it's time.

Sara Bybee Fisk 11:24

I also just want to name that I think sometimes, well, first, just in my own experience, I didn't know that what I was feeling was grief, right? I think with the loss of a spouse, that's very obvious. With other losses, it's a little less obvious about why I have this feeling that, you know, maybe feels a little sad, but I shouldn't be feeling it because, like, in some settings, grief makes a lot of sense. Like, somebody died. Grief, yes. But I think other types of losses, we, it's like the grief is a little harder to identify. Does that make sense?

Krista St-Germain 12:03

Yeah, it totally does. So there's the, you know, someone dying as bereavement, a type of grief. Then there's the broader definition of grief. So a natural human response to a perceived loss, perceived loss. So you could be on the tail end of something you absolutely wanted. Like maybe it's been super hard for you to come out to your friends and family and you finally do it and you are so proud of yourself for doing it. And, and so you think, well, I should be happy. I should feel relief and maybe to some extent you do, but then also what you might find you also feel is grief. You might feel grief because you, you, you think you should have done it sooner, you know, or for all the years where you didn't do it and now you're doing it. Right. It wasn't the way you wanted your life to go. And now you see that it did and you lost all of these years where you being, you were being, you know, not your authentic self, right? You expect something to go one way and it goes another and that's so many things, but, but the important part is that to you, it feels like a loss.

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:16

And I think we're that, I love that you said it that way because I think that for a lot of like my life, people outside of me told me what was valid and not valid, right? I had all of these kind of external authorities and I think a lot of women can kind of identify with like needing to check with someone else. Is this a valid loss for me to feel bad about? Is this, am I allowed to feel sad about this? Because there is such a habit, a way of life of just making sure that it's okay with other people that I feel this way.

Krista St-Germain 13:54

Isn't that wild that we're taught that? That's crazy. It's wild and it makes me sad and angry.

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:02

It does. It does. And I think that the needing to check with someone else to see if it's okay that I feel this way just adds another layer of separation from it, anxiety about it. And what I would say, and I'm just interested in any of your thoughts is that if I feel like this is a sad thing, it gets to be a sad thing and nobody else has to agree with me.

Krista St-Germain 14:30

100%. Sometimes people will say like, what's the thing you really want people to hear? And that's it for me is like, if you could just not ever make yourself wrong for how you feel. I mean, that would solve so many of the challenges that we have, especially as

women, we feel something and we make ourselves wrong for it or we feel something and we don't believe it's okay until somebody else says it is. Or we feel something and we think, well, it was okay for me to feel it for a certain amount of time, but I've passed that time. And so now it's not okay. Now it's a sign of dysfunction or me having done something wrong or something being wrong with me.

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:08

Yes. And I see that with grief, right? Like this thing happened x number of years ago, I should be over it in a different place.

Krista St-Germain 15:20

Yeah. Accepting. And if I were accepting, I wouldn't feel sad or I wouldn't have feelings about it, which is ridiculous. Grief is the natural human response to a perceived loss and we can't go back and undo the loss and we're always going to have a response to it. Doesn't it then make sense that we would always have feelings about it? Yeah. So we're not trying to change the feelings that we have about it. We're trying to create a greater capacity to support ourselves when those feelings are present so that we can have an easier experience of them and the energy can shift and move. And secondary losses will keep happening forever. Right. And a lot of times we can't plan for them. And so if we're trying to measure our success in grief based on how we feel and we're buying into the idea that we're supposed to feel the emotions on the higher end of the scale, but not the ones on the lower end of the scale, well, then we have no space to have secondary loss experiences, which are such a huge part of grief for most people. It doesn't make sense.

Sara Bybee Fisk 16:21

Yeah, give me an example of a secondary loss and what you mean by feeling the feelings of the higher end and lower end.

Krista St-Germain 16:28

Okay. Yeah. So second, so the primary losses, you know, for my clients that their spouse died for somebody else, it could be whatever the main loss is. So let's say somebody didn't want to lose a job, right? They wanted to be in that space and they lost that job. That would be the primary loss.A secondary loss would be now I don't get to go to lunch with that one coworker that I love or our relationship changed because I don't get to see them every day. So that loss, that secondary loss wouldn't have happened without the primary loss having happened. And the thing about secondary losses is that

for most people it's experienced kind of as a death by a thousand paper cuts because yeah, the primary loss, we expect that one will hurt and other people give us support around that hurt. But then we keep coming across scenarios in life that are secondary, but still involve grief. So, okay, the spouse died. Now it's wedding day. Spouse isn't there, right? It's the birth of a grandchild spouse isn't there. It's all the things that keep happening where in our mind and in our heart, they should be there and they aren't, or it shouldn't have been this way. And it is. And so that's, those are secondary losses.

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:41

I'm so glad that you said that, because I think that when we don't understand not making ourselves wrong for whatever that we're feeling, you get to the wedding day of your daughter and spouse isn't there. And instead of allowing what you're feeling to just be right, you beat yourself up. It's been 30 years or why am I like, I need to focus and be happy. What's wrong with me? We're doing this.

Krista St-Germain 18:10

Yeah, sometimes it's not even just the day of right. It's all the lead up of worry about, you know, I'm going to be a burden to people. I'm going to be a downer. I don't want, you know, it's so-and-so special day. I don't want to bring them down.I don't, we associate a display of emotion with some sort of character weakness or flaw, which is also so sad.

Sara Bybee Fisk 18:32

Yes, and that brings up something I want to get into in just a minute. But before we go there, one of the things that I think is misunderstood about not ever making yourself wrong for how you feel is that that is not the same thing as saying, I want to stay in this feeling or that this feeling is okay.Or it's like somehow I live here now. You can not make yourself wrong for how you're feeling and still learn how to choose how you show up in that feeling. Choose to be intentional in how you act. Like for example, if I'm super angry with my husband, I don't want to do this. If I'm angry, then making myself wrong is the only way I know how to get myself out of it.

Krista St-Germain 19:32
But it really doesn't even work.

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:33

It really doesn't even work.

Krista St-Germain 19:37

Yeah. Because then it's still there. You know, so we just might cover it up or switch gears, but really it's, it didn't actually go away. It didn't get digested.

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:51

So how do you help clients learn how to not ever make themselves wrong for how they feel?

Krista St-Germain 19:59

I mean, I don't, well, I don't know that I, anybody's bat in a hundred here. Yeah. Um, because we're humans and so perfection maybe doesn't need to be the goal. But it is a lot of practicing of just noticing the subtle ways that I make myself wrong and then like, right. Noticing it and then being prepared in advance with something that helps me kind of write that. So of course, like my favorite thing and I say it in my hand just goes to my heart. And it's like, no, of course, of course I feel this way. Of course, this is what's going on. Not to say that it will always be, but it makes so much sense that it is. Right. So however it is that I'm feeling, if we can make it make sense and then treat ourselves like it makes sense, that helps.

Sara Bybee Fisk 20:52

And then, weirdly enough, this is the counterintuitive part. The feeling almost relaxes its grip just a tiny bit. And I find that that's the space that I need to be able to decide how do I want to show up here? Because when I'm in the grip of it, and it's really tight, and I'm fighting it or trying to distract myself from it, it's like I don't even have the space to even be with myself to ask myself, okay, you're angry. How do you want to show up here? What would feel good right now?

Krista St-Germain 21:28

For me, it's, it's, yeah, it's space. It's cognitive ability. Like I can't even really get clarity on what's going on, let alone decide who I want to be in it. If the emotion is super intense, I need a way to make sure that I feel safe in my body and I need a way to, to normalize what I'm feeling and let it, let it flow through.So, you know, tapping is a huge

tool that I tend to gravitate towards. And, and what I love about it is that, well, I mean, I love so many things about it, but one of the things I really love about it is that as you're speaking, you are normalizing what you feel and saying it and, and following it up with a statement that is accepting of how you feel. And then that energy gets to shift and move and you can think again, and you can decide then now, now what, and who do I want to be? And what do I want next? And it feels completely different than trying to white knuckle your way through talking yourself out.

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:30

And you're talking about EFT, emotion, freedom, tapping. We both have our favorite tapping practitioner, Melanie Faye. We love some Melanie Faye. We love some Melanie Faye.So if tapping is, if you're curious about that, check out Melanie Faye, F-A-Y. When you were talking about the secondary losses and kind of how they stack up and the wedding and kind of that scenario, one of the things that came to my mind is how often I am with someone who's in grief and I feel like I don't know what to say sometimes. And I think we all want to be of comfort. We all want to be loving, well, maybe not everybody, but I think the people listening to this podcast want to. And so what is it about our experience of grief, of other people's grief that makes it so uncomfortable? And then how do we actually show up for other people in a way that is helpful? I just remember I just read a blog post by a woman who just lost her wife and she said, please do not ask me, how are you doing? Please do not ask me that. It's such a hard question. And so first of all, what is it about it that makes it so uncomfortable for us? And then how do we show up for people we love?

Krista St-Germain 24:01

Yeah, actually just recorded an episode of my podcast, um, called what to say and what not to say to a new widow. And it has blown me away the feedback that I'm getting on it because it is such a struggle that people have.And it's such a frustration when they are the one in grief, um, to, to have so many strange things that are usually well intentioned, you know, be said to them. So some, some general ideas. I think one, we weren't taught. Nobody helped us, right? So how we're expected to exercise a muscle that never got developed. It's such an unfair ask. So we should show ourselves some grace about that. We also have been taught to believe that emotions are problems that need to be fixed. So we often don't have a very big capacity to feel uncomfortable or to be with somebody else who feels uncomfortable. We perceive that as a problem and we have a writing reflex that says, I need to make them feel better. I can't feel good until they feel better or something has gone wrong if they don't feel good. Many of the things that people say that are received as dismissive come from that space. They're in a better place. At least they're no longer suffering. You're young. You'll find someone else be grateful for the time that you had. At least you know, know what love is like all of these things that I

know the look on your face is priceless. People mean well, but wow, you know, so if we could come from the approach that says feelings aren't problems to be fixed, they're just experiences to be allowed or witnessed and we could be with someone as they feel, however it is they feel because we aren't deciding that it should be some other way. That's what most people respond well to. It's just someone who's not, who doesn't believe they're broken and isn't trying to fix them, who believes that no, this is what grief is like. And of course, and while I'm so sorry and I love you, this sucks and I'm not going to try to take it away from you or minimize it or make you find some sort of silver lining because it just doesn't feel right.

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:17

I think, hopefully, I've never said it. I mean, who knows? Back in my super religious days, I think I heard a lot of crazy things like God needed them in heaven and that kind of thing. I think where I kind of get tripped up is I want the right words that are not going to make it worse or not going to remind them of something painful. And it just feels, yeah, it feels...

Krista St-Germain 26:44

Yeah. I think we want to, I think we want to reframe that and say that they, your words about their loss did not remind them. They did not forget. Your words remind them that you did not forget. And typically that is well received because they are probably feeling much more alone in their grief than you expect that they are.And they might be looking like they're doing really good and, you know, they're putting on the brave face or they look okay. And so it's easy to think, well, they're doing so great. I don't, I don't want to remind them. No, no, they didn't forget, but they might think that you did.

Sara Bybee Fisk 27:24

I chuckled for just a second, because when you said, Oh, no, they didn't forget, it was kind of like, yeah, like, I like I could, like, I would think that my words would suddenly just remind them out of the blue of this horrible thing that's happened.

Krista St-Germain 27:35

I used to think the same thing too though. So, you know, I think that's a pretty human thing. And I also encourage, if we're talking about somebody who actually died, I encourage people to say that person's name, you know, bring them up. Because again, it's a way of saying, I didn't forget and showing interest.People typically like to talk about,

not universally, but often they like to talk about their person or tell stories. What were they like? Or what would they tell me a funny story? Or if there's a moment where it reminds you of that person, yeah, say it. That used to happen to me all the time at work because Hugo and I worked together. And so everybody at work knew him. Some of them had worked with him for 10 years longer than me. And there would be the perfect moment where they could crack a Hugo joke, but you could see the hesitation, right? Because they're afraid of hurting me. And so I just decided, okay, maybe I need to crack the joke. Maybe I need to bring it up. And then it's like, okay, you know, now that's what she wants. She wants to talk about him. She wants us to say the obvious thing.

Sara Bybee Fisk 28:42

I love that there's so many things that feel almost counterintuitive because we've been taught, like, don't talk about it, don't say it. But I just had a friend who posted on Facebook about the loss of her dad, who was well known. And she just said, I'd love to hear any memories you have with my dad. I just want to keep all of that alive and present.And so, yeah, they are feeling likely much more alone than we might guess. And I think I love what you said that our words remind them that we haven't forgotten. Yeah. Is there anything that you haven't gotten to say during our conversation that you really want to make sure you include as part of this?

Krista St-Germain 29:23

Well, you know, we had talked a little bit before about showing grief, especially as a parent and how sometimes we have this inclination to hide our grief from our kids. And I get that and I actually had some of that myself and what I've seen in my clients is part of the reason grief is so hard from the get-go is because it wasn't normalized for us. And so then we come into our own grief experience and if we haven't had some good role models of how to actually cry those tears and be okay or do what we need to do to process those feelings, talk about it, you know, be okay, it's not the elephant in the room, then we might think that's the way to do it and without really realizing that we're perpetuating accidentally the cycle that's made our grief hard. And so I think if we can show and be honest, maybe not like tsunami style wailing that might scare a child, but to actually show them that it is okay and healthy to have feelings and to cry and to be sad and to articulate that, you know, if it's a mom, I used to tell my kids all the time, mommy's sad and it's okay to be sad, mommy's crying and it's okay to cry. It's always okay.And I'll be okay. I am okay. And I'm sad. And so if you're worried about doing damage to your kids because you're having an intense grief experience and you're inclined to hide it, I would offer that sometimes more damage is done by hiding it and can we find ways to let them in on it so that we can role model it in healthy, healthy ways. My daughter, she was home for the weekend and we were playing this little card game and the question was something like, when did you first realize that I was human towards a parent? And she

made a comment that it was her walking into the living room and seeing me crying and I was watching a TV show or something and I said, what happened? And she said, well, you said something like what you, you know, like very, you like what you would normally say. And I'm like, Oh God, what's that? What would I normally say? And she was like, well, like, it's okay to cry, you know, like, and I'm like, okay, good. That's what I want to do here. I'm so glad, you know, she's 22, but I'm so glad that back then I normalized that for her because it's obvious, it feels so obvious for her to say it to me now. And if we could do more of that, you know.

Sara Bybee Fisk 31:57

so good. When you're talking about that, it's just bringing up for me. Like when I talk about people pleasers, everyone kind of thinks of the very classic people pleaser who's maybe very high strong and anxious and checking on everybody. Are you okay? Can I get you anything? And I think those, if we're speaking in just broad generalities, that type of person doesn't want their feelings to inconvenience anyone, right? They don't want to have any needs that are inconvenient for anyone or that take up any space or that take up anyone else's time because you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed to be inconvenient or a burden for anyone.And I think there's another maybe personality profile that is also doing some people pleasing, but it looks very different. They're very strong. They're very armored up and they're like, I don't need anyone. I can do it all myself. I don't need help. I can rely on myself. And they might be more inclined to push those feelings down in the name of being strong, being sturdy, being super resilient because that's kind of the way they've gotten through everything is by only relying on themselves, not needing any other help. And so whether you're listening to this and you feel like I'm more of the strong, independent, armored up, or I'm more of the anxious, checking in on everybody all the time, being able to feel that and to not gloss over those feelings is what is going to be the thing that ultimately counterintuitively helps you feel so much better.

Krista St-Germain 33:40

Yeah, to a certain extent, I still feel myself going through some of that. Enneagram three, I'm not hugely familiar with the Enneagram, but have been using it as a tool lately and just realizing, yeah, a lot of my, you know, validation from others has been because of independence and accomplishment and achievement.And it's not super comfortable to, to be vulnerable and, you know, to, and to find spaces where I feel safe enough to do that. And I, I, the more I see it myself, the more I can see it in others too, you know, I don't think it's

Sara Bybee Fisk 34:17

uncommon at all. No, it's not.Enneagram is a really fascinating way of just kind of learning more about what motivates you, what scares you kind of what, how you like to move through the world, how you like to be seen. And yeah, I'm an Enneagram eight.

Krista St-Germain 34:32 Oh, the challenger.

Sara Bybee Fisk 34:33 Yeah.

Krista St-Germain 34:34
Yes, that doesn't surprise me actually knowing you. Yeah.

Sara Bybee Fisk 34:38 As it's ups and downs.

Krista St-Germain 34:42

Well, I bet, I bet people know, you know, they know what they're going to get around you.

Sara Bybee Fisk 34:48

the time. It's weird though because being an Enneagram eight who is a people pleaser, I think that just created tons of that pretending and performing that we've been talking about.So if people are interested, Krista, in what you've had to say, which is brilliant and you should be interested, take it from me, where can they find out more about you? What do you have coming up?

Krista St-Germain 35:13

Yeah. So I have a podcast as well. It's called the widowed mom podcast. And I realized that people are listening and going, but I'm not a widow. It's totally fine.If they're

interested in learning about grief, you know, just forget the widow part and you can just come and listen for grief also on YouTube with that now these days, and then if you know any widows, I'm doing a free online event on November 18th, it'll be three days, three, three days, three tools that I will teach to help make the holidays easier. I realize we can't really make the holidays easy, but I do believe that the right tools can make them easier and so they can register for that.

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:51

Awesome. All of that will be in the show notes so you can find it there. Krista, you've just been someone who I have relied on for lots of years to be a voice, uh, not just of wisdom, but just like so much compassion. And that's what I hear coming through this is just not ever letting yourself be wrong for what you feel and treating yourself with so much gentleness and kindness. And of course I'm feeling that way with your hands on your chest. And I just really appreciate knowing that you are there as a friend and there as a guide for women who are experiencing a lot of grief over the last.

Krista St-Germain 36:27

But the more, the more I do this work, the more convinced I am that compassion is what we need. 100%.

Sara Bybee Fisk 36:35
Thank you for this conversation.

Krista St-Germain 36:37 Yeah, my pleasure.

Episode 137 - Why Are We Trying To Make It Look Easy?

On the surface, high-achieving people-pleasers are admired by everyone. We seem to have it all together—never complaining about our workload and always showing up prepared and polished. But the effort to make everything look easy, even when we’re struggling, comes at a huge cost. In this episode, I discuss why we do this and how to start releasing ourselves from the constant performance so we can feel supported, helped, and loved, rather than staying trapped in a cycle of loneliness and resentment. Here’s what I cover:

• Examples that highlight how high-achievers hide their struggles

• The underlying beliefs that drive this behavior and where they come from

• Why your body eventually refuses to keep up the performance

• The red flags that signal when you’ve become trapped in trying to make things look easy

• What it takes to begin unraveling this pattern and show up with authenticity instead

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Transcript

00:58

Recently, I've started working out with my husband. And as I have spent the last, you know, month and a half or so doing that, I've noticed something that I thought at first was really funny. 

 01:10

But as I noticed the pattern more and really thought about what I was doing, it brought something up that I want to talk about with you. And it is how high achieving women, and especially high achieving people pleasers, hide the struggle. 

 01:28

We hide what we need help with. We hide the effort that something takes because we are so attached to being seen as highly capable, highly able to produce, and not needing any help. If you can identify with that, then let's talk about it. 

 01:46

Let's talk about why we do it and how we might begin to kind of extricate ourselves from the constant performance that we are doing so that we can feel supported and helped and loved, just like we support and love and help the people around us. 

 02:03

Because if there's one thing that my clients report over and over and over, it's a feeling of loneliness and resentment. Loneliness because nobody knows them. Nobody knows how much they're really struggling and what's really going on for them. 

 02:18

And resentment because they're not supported the same way that they support other people. So getting back to the gym, I would just notice that we were both exercising and he was grunting and grimacing and really letting the strain of what we were doing show on his face. 

 02:37

And I was trying really hard to appear very composed, very calm, like, yeah, I mean, this was a little bit hard, but I could totally manage it. And I'm just laughing about it because exercise is supposed to be hard. 

 02:53

It really was hard, but the amount of like deep breathing that I was doing, holding my face, you know, very neutrally, it just points to the work that I am still doing to undo this dynamic in me because it very much describes how I wanted and honestly sometimes still want to be perceived. 

 03:15

You know, I want the effort to look effortless and the need for help. I want it to be really minimal and not really show. And there's a real hidden cost to that. There's a real cost to making everything look easy. 

 03:29

It teaches the people around you something, right? There's a cost to them. There's a cost to you. And there are some beliefs underneath it that kind of keep all of us trapped in the performance of this. 

 03:42

So let's get into it. So on the surface, this high achieving people pleaser is someone that everyone admires, right? She's the one who has it together. And if she ever talks about her workload, it's not to complain. 

 03:58

It might be to acknowledge that it's a lot, but it is never to be vulnerable about how it feels to do and carry so much. The high-achieving people pleaser's job is to make complex things look very simple, hard things look very easy, and to always show up prepared and polished. 

 04:18

And as I look at my own behavior kind of in this mindset and the behavior that my clients have brought into our coaching sessions, it looks very different right behind that polished exterior. I had a client who was working 60 hour weeks, but only billing for 40 because she didn't want anybody to think that she was slow or not capable. 

 04:42

I have other clients who redo work that is already good enough because she's terrified that somebody will find a flaw or somebody will find something wrong. Lots of clients saying yes to one more project while mentally calculating, right? 

 04:58

How much can I, can I survive on four hours of sleep? I'm getting five now. Can I give up a little bit more? Where work or the job really begins to encroach on the weekend, their health, their sleep time, their family time. 

 05:13

And when I think about the emotions that they're feeling, it's a lot of overwhelm. It's a lot of resentment. It's a lot of loneliness and a lot of sadness that they don't feel like they can be honest about the load they are carrying, about the plates that they keep spinning, because somebody will think less of them if they do, right? 

 05:36

This type of person is working incredibly hard to make everything look easy. And the performance isn't about just doing the work, right? It's not just about getting the work done. It's about hiding the fact that the work is hard, that the work is demanding, that the work, you know, takes something from her. 

 05:57

Because if people see the effort, what she thinks they will see is weakness. That's the really important part to kind of hone in on if you are identifying with this. If people know how hard something is for you or how you struggle with it or the demand that it places on your energy or resources, what does that mean about you? 

 06:23

Because if that means, right, if people see all the effort, it means that they're going to think I'm weak, then what? Are they going to think I'm not as capable? And then do I need them to believe that I am capable at this certain level so that they like me, so that they stay with me, so that they talk about me as someone capable? 

 06:44

Yeah, there's a lot wrapped up in this. So I want you to just get out your mental bingo cards. I'm going to give you some kind of red flags to look for. I'm going to read through them. Just mentally check off yes or no. 

 06:59

So have you ever said, I'm fine, while stuffing down the feeling of being on the verge of tears because you have so much you're dealing with or so much to do? No, no, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. 

 07:11

No, no, no. I can handle it. Totally fine. Yeah, I got it. And you want to cry. Number two, you have redone work that was already good enough because it wasn't perfect enough or because you were worried that somebody would find a flaw. 

 07:26

Number three, you have declined help that you really need because you don't want to look weak or incapable. Number four, people are genuinely shocked if they find out that you are struggling or if you ever admit that you're struggling with something. 

 07:46

Next one. You are working through illness, exhaustion, or personal crisis without telling anyone. You just keep going. No matter what's going on in your personal life, you don't ask for accommodations. 

 08:00

You don't ask for a lessened workload because you don't want people to know that you can't handle that, even through upheaval and things going wrong in your life. Next one, it's very uncomfortable for you to receive help. 

 08:16

You're much more comfortable giving help than being on the receiving end of help. Just think about that one for a second. Next one, you feel resentment that you are not supported the same way or to the same degree that you support others. 

 08:34

Next one. Stress and overwhelm are a regular part of your life. They keep you up at night sometimes. They keep you wound up and ruminating and worrying during the day, but stress and overwhelm are like regular parts of your life. 

 08:53

Next one, you're never able to totally unplug from work duties and relax. Downtime, what is that, right? Because when you are not physically working, you are thinking about work or you are thinking about the tasks that need to be done. 

 09:09

And work can be anything. It can be a professional job. It can be, you know, being a mom at home with kids, anything that counts to you as quote unquote work. And the last one, your defense mechanism or the way you feel safe is keeping people at a little bit of a distance so that they don't get too close and see how messy or how weak or how disorganized a person you are. 

 09:39

Because that's where the loneliness comes from, right? So you like people to just be a little bit at a distance. If you've got three or more of those going, then I think we're talking about you two, just so you know. 

 09:55

And the reason that it matters is because this is costing you. There's a physical cost. Your body is keeping the score, right? When you're running on adrenaline and five hours of sleep and ruminating in the background all the time, because front facing, you're making everything look effortless. 

 10:17

Your nervous system is in constant activation. Right? We talk about fight and flight and fawn. Freeze is what happens when we don't have the time and energy to attend to our nervous system. And we live in what is called functional freeze. 

 10:38

If nobody comes in to help us, if nobody comes in to kind of help us calm the threat or our nervous system to relax, we go into this functional freeze state where everything feels frozen, but we keep going, right? 

 10:54

We don't ever feel like we can really connect with people. We don't feel like we can be really vulnerable. We don't feel like we can be really seen or heard or listened to. And we are just doing, doing, doing, doing, doing all day long, trying to stay one step ahead of everything that is being asked of us. 

 11:11

But that functional freeze just becomes the way we exist. You might experience chronic fatigue that no amount of sleep really seems to fix. Maybe you're having digestive issues or headaches. You're getting sick more frequently. 

 11:28

Or maybe there's that feeling of like tired, but I'm also wired. Like I'm tired and I wish I could sleep, but I can't because the rumination cycle just is running in the background and I can't really settle. 

 11:39

Maybe you're taking something to sleep every night. That was me for a long, long time. I could not shut it off on my own. Exhausted, but really unable to rest. Your body is trying to tell you something, but you've gotten really good at overriding those signals. 

 11:58

And if that's where you are still in signal override, there is an expiration date on that. For me, it was really perimenopause. When that estrogen said, see ya, and my other, you know, progesterone and testosterone started, you know, fluctuating and changing, I couldn't keep it up anymore. 

 12:18

And then I had a tremendous feeling of being a failure, right? I couldn't keep all these plates spinning anymore. And not only was I weak, but now I was a failure. And so that is the situation that so many women who have been high producers, really type A, high achieving women, find themselves in around midlife because not only is the hormonal support changing because of aging and perimenopause, but the sheer effort becomes unsustainable. 

 12:52

And it shows up in our bodies. It shows up in the way that our bodies feel, in the way that our bodies support and help us. We feel like our body is betraying us. And some of that is just medical and can be fixed. 

 13:06

A lot of it is the physical load of the stress hormones and the lack of sleep that are just adding up. There's also an emotional cost. I've talked a little bit about the loneliness. It can be profound. 

 13:24

This feeling that you're surrounded by people, but that nobody really knows the real you because they can't know the real you, right? You've shown them the capable version, the strong version, the version that doesn't need anything. 

 13:38

And if they really knew you, what would they think of the person who has needs, who can't do everything? Another emotional cost is the resentment. When you are giving and producing constantly, something deep inside is keeping score. 

 14:01

And then that something starts to ask, why doesn't anyone check on E? Why isn't anyone showing up for me? Why isn't anybody asking me how I'm doing? Why isn't anybody supporting me the same way that I support other people? 

 14:16

Because of course they don't. You've made it impossible and I made it impossible for people to know that I needed it or that I wanted it. I actively worked to prevent people from knowing that I had needs and that I resented them for not knowing that. 

 14:36

And I have a little chuckle about that today, but that feeling of resentment can be really intense and really uncomfortable, and it can start to fray relationships, right? Because that resentment doesn't just sit in your body. 

 14:51

It comes out sideways. It comes out in comments. It comes out in the way you show up and in your energy. And that's one of the costs. Another cost is disconnection from yourself, right? You've spent so much energy managing how other people perceive you that you have lost touch with how you actually feel, what your needs actually are, what you actually want. 

 15:17

I find it fascinating, but not at all confusing. It makes total sense that the most common thing that women say to me is, I don't even know who I am or what I want. Because we've been managing this outward, forward-facing performance for decades. 

 15:36

And so when we start to ask the question, who am I or what do I really want here? We haven't spent any time connecting with that or answering it. And so we don't know. So common. If you're feeling that, absolutely. 

 15:51

That makes so much sense. Another cost is the anxiety. There is an underlying kind of hum of fear of being found out, right? Of being discovered that maybe someday somebody will see behind the curtain and realize that not only are you struggling, that you're just human, but that you have needs and that you have all of these feelings of anxiety and loneliness and resentment back there. 

 16:22

And what would they think of you then? The last real big part of this cost is the stress and overwhelm, right? That constant feeling of being under the gun, the hurry, hurry, hurry, just more, more, more, more, more, more. 

 16:38

I used to have this mental image that would come to mind where I imagined a donkey and a cart and a driver. And I was both the donkey and the driver. And everything I was doing for everybody was in the cart. 

 16:55

And so I would crack the whip on myself and say, more, I need more. I need you to do just a little more, just a little faster, just a little harder. Just finish this next thing. And that stress and overwhelm just wears out your endocrine system. 

 17:10

Your nervous system is constantly on alert. It's a really, really hard way to live. There's also an identity cost because when you've built an identity around being the capable one, the strong one, the one who doesn't need help, you then become trapped in it. 

 17:27

And here's how that happens. Because if I admit I'm struggling, if I ask for help, who am I then? Like that is almost a terrifying thought. Who am I if I'm not producing? If I'm not highly independent, if I'm not high achieving, if that's who I really am, and if that's the strategy that I have developed so that I can matter in the world, who am I without that? 

 17:56

Will I be loved without it? Will I be wanted? Will I still have a place and connection if I'm not this high achieving person who doesn't have needs and doesn't need help? It's a prison of our own making. 

 18:14

And you are both the prisoner and the guard, keeping everyone else out so that they don't see and keeping yourself in because that's where you learned it was safe. Even though it feels terrible, even though it's not what works for you anymore, it can feel really difficult to start to let people in and see because it might jeopardize everything. 

 18:40

Will they still love me? Will they still want me? Will I still have connection with them? What this creates is a list of things that we're missing. We're missing real intimacy because intimacy requires vulnerability. 

 18:57

We're missing genuine support because we won't let people help. We're missing true rest because you can't let your guard down. We're missing authentic connection because people can only connect with the version of you that you are willing to show them. 

 19:15

Right? I have so many women who say, I want deeper friendships. I want deeper relationships. I want to be known and I want to be seen and I want to be held and I want to be understood. And that requires showing them our real selves who struggle, who need, for whom things are not always easy. 

 19:38

And we end up sacrificing the very things that make life really meaningful, the connection, the belonging, that being truly known and loved. Because we have to maintain the image that gets us the love. 

 19:54

We are hustling every day to be worthy of those things, right? And we're getting connection and belonging and, you know, kudos and rewards by producing, but that only takes us so far. And we don't get the deeper vulnerability and connection that only comes by letting ourselves really be known. 

 20:16

It is the cruelest irony. It really is so, so cruel that the very way that we feel safe and we feel valuable is what keeps us from the deepest intimacy and belonging. The other aspect of this that I think needs to be addressed is that this constant hiding of our own efforts and needs teaches the people around us some very specific lessons. 

 20:45

It teaches them she doesn't need help. When you make everything look easy, people believe you. They take you at your word when you say, I'm totally fine. I can totally handle it. So they stop offering. 

 20:58

They stop checking in. And it's often not because they don't care, but because you've trained them that you don't need their care, that you're fine without their care. And then we feel resentful because they're not checking in. 

 21:12

Another thing it teaches people is that, you know what, Sara's fine with this workload. When I was taking on more without ever being asked, when I was showing up over and over again without looking like I was breaking a sweat, people assumed that that was my capacity. 

 21:30

And so I was given more, right? Your boss gives you another project because last time you quote unquote handled it so well. Your colleagues come to you because you're so good at this, right? You're the one who gets the knock on the door and you're helping other people with their workload while your own doesn't get addressed. 

 21:48

And you accidentally teach people that your breaking point is much higher than it actually is, or that you don't have one at all, and that you can be the person that they come to, that they ask more from, because you're fine with this workload. 

 22:06

You also teach people that this is what competence looks like. If you are in a leadership position, if you are the mom of kids, if you are the daughter or the friend, right? It doesn't matter which relationship you are in. 

 22:23

If you are showing people that you never struggle, they will think that that is what competence looks like. Never asking for help, never showing uncertainty, right? And the people around you begin to think that they have to have it all figured out too, that they can't ask for help. 

 22:43

At work, maybe junior colleagues feel inadequate because they're openly struggling with things that you seem to breeze through. Think about how we all get to take like a deep breath when we realize, oh my gosh, that's hard for you too. 

 23:01

Or, oh my gosh, you're struggling with that too. Or, oh my gosh, you have that need too. It's not just me. That's what we keep ourselves from having and the people around us from having the human connection of struggle, because what we're showing everybody is that competence looks like there is no struggle. 

 23:24

We're also teaching people that our value comes from what we produce. When people only ever see us being useful, being productive, being helpful, they start relating to you primarily as a resource, not as a person. 

 23:41

They value what you do and not who you are. Caveat, in some situations, this is normal, right? Your children are not going to see you as a person for a while. And what you do for them is highly, highly valuable because they survive, right? 

 23:59

But in work situations, I remember a client who constantly had the knocks on the door asking for her help because she was so highly competent and highly productive. Everybody saw her as the problem solver, the one who could get it done. 

 24:15

And she took a lot of work home with her on weekends. All of these things that we teach the people around us end up doing something really insidious and really sad. They confirm our deepest fear because when people see us as not needing help, they stop checking on us. 

 24:36

When people see us as fine with the workload and give us more, when people look at us and see that that's what competence looks like, they start hiding their struggles from us. And when they know that we feel like we're valuable because of what we produce, that does something even more insidious and I think really sad because it confirms our deepest fears. 

 25:04

What we teach other people keeps the cycle going that confirms our deepest fears. It's often subconscious, right? It's not something that we talk about. But when we see people relating to us as a person who has no needs because that's what we've taught them, that confirms our deepest fears that we are only loved or only valuable for what we produce. 

 25:32

And so that cycle and mindset just keeps going and going and going. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And it is so sad. It is really sad. I also just want to name some of the beliefs that we might not even know that we have. 

 25:52

There are a couple of core beliefs that kind of underpin all of this behavior. Number one, my value comes from what I produce. If you believe that your value is tied to your productivity, it's probably because that was taught to you when you were young. 

 26:10

You were praised for what you produced. That's how you got buy-in with the adults. That's how you got belonging. So of course, you learn to hide any evidence that you're struggling because struggling means producing less or not doing the same high-level job, which means being worthless or that you're not up to the task. 

 26:33

And so if you have that belief, it makes a lot of sense, but I want to push it a little bit further. So let's say that someone sees that you're valuable for what you produce. And then you think they're only going to want me around when I'm useful. 

 26:51

And if you stop being useful, then what'll happen? Well, then they're going to leave. And if they leave, then I'll be alone. And if I'm alone, then I'll discover that I'm not actually worthy of being loved just for me. 

 27:08

So do you see how we got there? The fear isn't really about productivity. It's about the really terrifying possibility that without your achievements, you're not enough, that you're not lovable, that you do have to earn it. 

 27:24

And what I want you to understand is that that is not true. That is fundamentally not how being a worthy human works. And do you want relationships where you have to earn your place through constant production? 

 27:40

Is that love? Is that what you want in relationships that are meaningful to you? Because to me, that just sounds like transaction. And in some cases, transaction is appropriate, but not in our deepest, most meaningful and valuable relationships. 

 28:01

Belief number two is that having needs makes me a burden. This belief tells you that your needs are inherently problematic, that asking for help means that you are quote unquote too much for people to handle. 

 28:17

This might have also been something that you received as a child. The big people in your life, maybe they told you that you were too much, that you were too loud, that you were too dramatic, or that something that you wanted was too inconvenient. 

 28:32

And so you learned, right, I need to keep it small. I need to keep myself small. So let's just look at what that belief kind of feels like under the surface. So if I ask for help and someone is annoyed, then I'll know that I was right, that I am too much. 

 28:48

So I don't even want to ask, right? Just the fact that that might be confirmed to me that I am too much keeps me from even wanting to ask the question. But what if that person is just having a bad day? 

 29:02

Or what if their annoyance says more about them than it says about you? Or what if there are people who would be happy to help? You miss out on all of that because one person's potential negative reaction represents, you know, the universal truth about your needs being too much. 

 29:24

Like I want you to just play with that for a little bit. Belief number three. If people see me struggle, they will lose respect for me. You know, this is the belief that competence and struggle are mutually exclusive. 

 29:41

So let's say someone sees you struggle. Then what would happen next? Maybe you might think they're going to think less of me. They're going to think I'm weak. While that makes sense, and while this is also something that the big people might have taught you when you were little, I want you to just ask yourself, how do you know what they think? 

 30:05

Have you ever lost respect for someone that you admired when they admitted something was hard? If you have, that's okay. And if you haven't, that's really interesting. Because sometimes, and actually, I'm going to go a little further and say all the time, the right people, when they see your struggle, it's actually an opportunity to build vulnerability and intimacy and to feel closer to them. 

 30:33

And that can be true no matter which relationship it is. Belief number four, if I let my guard down, I will be hurt or disappointed. This is that distance that I was talking about, right? Because if I let people close enough to me to see that I need something or that I want something from them and they let me down, oh, I'm not going to be able to handle that. 

 30:58

So I'm just going to keep them a little bit distant. So I want you to think about what that feels like underneath the loneliness, right? The lack of being able to be seen. That's something that I personally really deeply felt. 

 31:15

Like I just had to kind of keep people at a distance, but I was so lonely. So I just want to push on that for a second. So what if people let you down? And then what'll happen, right? You'll be devastated, maybe. 

 31:31

And then you can recover. You can get over it. You can learn to honor other people's limitations just like you want your own limitations honored. Yes, it would hurt. But is the pain of potential disappointment worse than the pain of guaranteed loneliness? 

 31:53

Because that's the trade, right? You're choosing certain isolation to avoid possible disappointment. And I know we're not going to resolve all that today, right? That's why we have coaching. That's why you can schedule a call with me. 

 32:10

That's why we can talk about this. But I want to name those beliefs because they can change. All of them come from kind of a core wound, if you want to call it. The belief that you are not inherently worthy of love, care, and belonging just as you are. 

 32:30

That it requires some kind of a performance for you to earn love. And everything else, the achieving, the performing, the hiding of the effort, the rejection of help, those are all strategies to try and earn what you don't believe you simply deserve to receive. 

 32:51

And here's, I think, what just feels really devastating to me. You can never achieve your way into worthiness because you achieve the hell out of Monday and now it's Tuesday, right? You achieve the hell out of Tuesday and now it's Wednesday. 

 33:09

And that's why we're so exhausted. It is a never-ending grind because worthiness isn't something that can be earned. It's something you either believe you have or you don't. Now, if you're like me, if I had been listening to this podcast episode, you know, in a past version of myself, I would have had some thoughts. 

 33:34

Number one, like, but I do need to be capable and productive. I do need that. And I'm not suggesting that you stop being excellent at what you do. There's a difference between being competent and performing effortlessness. 

 33:50

There's a difference between being competent and performing effortlessness. You can be excellent at your job and honest about when something is challenging. You can be highly capable and willing to ask for help sometimes. 

 34:06

You can be very productive and transparent about your workload, strong and vulnerable. The issue here isn't achievement. It's the hiding of the human experience or the effort that it takes to get that achievement. 

 34:22

I might have also been thinking in the past, you know, what if I actually work in a toxic environment? And that's valid. Sometimes that is true. We genuinely work in situations where we have seen other people be punished for being vulnerable about their struggles. 

 34:40

But that's the question we need to ask. Have you actually seen that happen? Or have you just assumed that would happen? Because that's your fear talking. If it's true and you are in a genuinely toxic work environment, then we need to talk about whether or not that environment is safe for you to be in at all and how we might change that and get you to a place where it feels safe. 

 35:04

But here's what also happens sometimes. There is the assumption that the workplace is toxic because your insides are toxic. You're projecting those internal beliefs onto the work environment and you've never actually tested whether or not vulnerability is going to be punished or rewarded. 

 35:27

And so there's an opportunity there to test with people who feel safe whether or not you can be more honest about what's going on for you. I also might have thought, you know, but what if people have taken advantage of me before? 

 35:42

People did, and that hurt, right? I'm sure that people have taken advantage of you too, and that hurt. But that is one person's behavior. And we can't let that dictate how we're going to show up in every relationship for the rest of our lives. 

 35:56

Not everyone is safe. And not everyone is unsafe either. The work is learning how to discern who deserves your vulnerability and not closing yourself off to everyone just as a precaution. That's what creates that lonely experience. 

 36:15

Last thing I might have been thinking is, okay, but what if people really do need me to be the strong one? Sometimes this will be true in our lives, and we might want to be the strong one for reasons that we like. 

 36:31

But that's just it. We should be able to get to choose to be strong when we examine the reasons and not just because that's what's expected of us. When we are used to being the strong one, oftentimes we just step into that role without even being asked or even seeing if it is needed. 

 36:51

It's kind of an automatic reaction. And what I have learned is people usually, yeah, there are going to be emergencies and times of stress and even chaos. And our strength might be needed at that time. 

 37:06

That might actually happen. But what people need more often is not for us to be superhuman. They need us to be sustainable. Our children need us to admit, I'm having a hard day, and to cry in front of them so that they know that our tears are not a problem. 

 37:25

It's a normal part of being a human. The people that we work with need us to admit that our capacity is being stretched because that models healthy boundaries. The people that work underneath us need to know that we have limits and that we will not work outside of them so that they can learn to have healthy boundaries and limitations as well. 

 37:53

When we show up as a whole human, that's actually not letting people down. It's giving them permission to be human too. So let's talk about some things you might do to unravel this. It's not about flipping a switch and suddenly becoming vulnerable about everything, right? 

 38:11

The goal is authenticity, being able to show up as that whole human who struggles, who has boundaries, who has needs, who has wants, who needs rest. So notice the performance. Start paying attention to the gap between how you're feeling and what you're showing others. 

 38:30

Notice when you say, I'm fine when you're not, or when you're putting a lot of effort into making something look easy when it's hard. You don't have to change anything yet. I just want you to notice. 

 38:42

Number two, if you listen to the beliefs section, maybe go back and listen to this again, which ones ring true for you and just start questioning them. Ask yourself, where did I learn that my value comes from what I produce? 

 38:57

What would happen if I showed effort? Write it down. Get these beliefs out of your head and onto some paper or sign up for a call with me using the link in the show notes and I will talk them through with you. 

 39:10

Then I want you to run small experiments. Start testing different beliefs with small, low stakes experiments. Tell one person something that was hard. Ask for help with something small. Admit you don't know something. 

 39:28

Say, you know what? I'm actually pretty overwhelmed when someone asks you how you are. And just see what happens. I can guarantee you that most people are going to respond with relief and connection and respect, not judgment. 

 39:43

And those who respond with judgment, we need to talk about whether or not you want to open up to them because they might not be people who can handle it. Practice receiving. That's another amazing thing that you can do. 

 39:55

Let someone buy you coffee without assisting that you're going to get the next one. Let someone help you without immediately feeling like you have to return the favor or shower them with praise for doing something small to help you. 

 40:09

Accept compliments without deflecting or diminishing. We have to learn this lesson that our worth is not contingent upon maintaining a perfect balance sheet of giving and receiving, right? Just let yourself receive. 

 40:27

And then as we wrap up here, I want to just give you a taste of what life looks like on the other side. It means that you have friends who know you're struggling before you have to really spell it out, who love you no matter what is going on for you, who are ready and willing to listen to you and see you and hear you. 

 40:46

You're respected for your skills and your honesty about your capacity. You get to go to bed without the weight of maintaining that performance and that rumination cycle is switched off. And you get to feel worthy even on days when what you accomplish isn't what it used to be or when you accomplish nothing. 

 41:10

This isn't a fantasy. Actually, what becomes possible when you stop performing effortlessness and start showing up as your whole self? I would love to talk about this with you. DM me what resonated. Set up a call. 

 41:25

Let's talk it through. Thanks for being here. I'll see you next week.

Episode 136 - Choosing Love Over Certainty with Meagan Skidmore

Our good girl programming is built on the certainty that if we follow the rules and keep everyone happy, we’ll belong. But what happens when stepping into deeper love and connection also means stepping into the uncertainty that comes with unraveling that conditioning? In this episode, I talk with Meagan Skidmore, Life Transformation Coach and author of TransparentSEE: How I Learned to SEE through My Journey as a Parent of a Transgender Kiddo. We explore what it means to trust your inner knowing, even when it leads you down an unfamiliar path, and how doing so can radically transform your relationships with others and with yourself. Here’s what we cover:

• How growing up in the LDS faith shaped Meagan’s sense of belonging

• The pain of feeling forced to choose between two things that are meaningful to you

• Why slowing can provide you with the patience and openness needed to make space for uncertainty

• The importance of creating safe spaces where you can explore and questions

• Why the loss of certainty can be a doorway to a new version of yourself, your family, and your faith

Meagan Skidmore is a Life Transformation Coach who empowers her clients to navigate life transitions and step into their fullest potential. Life transitions have a way of presenting the opportunity to reset our identity, reassess our values, and process emotions—becoming the witnessing observer of our experiences instead of letting them define us. 

Meagan helps people awaken to their truth, crush the boxes that confine them, and step boldly into their power, stop lying to themselves and live authentically and unapologetically. With a holistic approach, Meagan guides clients to use emotional alchemy to help them connect with their bodies and hear their Inner Wisdom. This creates space to truly embody their core values and live in alignment. Whether you’re facing change or seeking alignment, Meagan offers the support and tools you need to turn what seems a life crisis into a beautiful metamorphosis.

Find Meagan here:

https://meaganskidmorecoaching.com

https://www.instagram.com/meaganskidmorecoaching

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064267982984 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-inner-catalyst/id1843004454

https://www.youtube.com/@meaganskidmorecoachingllc8331/featured 

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:59

One of the funnest things about being a coach and knowing other coaches is just how many ex good girls I read into and in this case, with you, Meagan, you and I are ex good girls of like exactly the same stripe in that we were both members once of the LDS Mormon Church. And now we're not, and we have different stories of how we got here. And yours touches on such a tender issue, I think, from a lot of people right now, if you are paying attention to politics in the United States, there's a lot of talk right now around our trans brothers and sisters and our trans children, our trans fellow citizens. And this isn't going to be political in nature at all, because that's not what we're here to talk about today.But it is going to be your story of how you came to know you had and love and accept and how having a trans child changed you. 

Meagan Skidmore 02:02

Sara, thanks so much for having me. I'm already feeling choked up as you're saying those words because it's still, I'll say, fresh. It's been a little over a year since I formally took a step back, even more so since the Supreme Court, since the LDS Church submitted the amicus curiae brief to the Supreme Court about a month ago, three weeks ago. Anyway, I just feel this emotion coming up.It's not an easy place to be in. And I, it's not often I hear myself described in that way, but if, you know, at my heart of hearts, like, yeah, so buckle up. Let's go. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:52

Yeah, yeah. So I think all of us who are listening, whether we have a conservative religious background or not, you know, there are people who listen, who grew up in other conservative denominations or groups and those who didn't. And I think it doesn't matter. We all can look back at our good girl behavior and programming. And we kind of have a sense for like what we were taught to do and believe what our roles were, what the rule, the big rules were that we followed in our lives and some of the ways that we were rewarded even for being really good girls. And so I wonder, Meagan, as you look back, what is your good girl story? 

Meagan Skidmore 03:37

Yeah. So I was born and raised in the LDS faith. And it wasn't until a few years ago, I don't think that I realized how much I looked to external things. I'll use the word things, but I'm talking about behaviors or observances that I did or didn't do. The success of my relationships, my belonging, I believed it to be belonging, fitting in, I'll say fitting in to my faith community, how I was maybe perceived or seen among those in that same community, including family members. And I suppose by extension that included how I felt about my worthiness or goodness or lovableness. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:35

Yeah, yeah. 

Meagan Skidmore 04:36

With those around me and with God, the divine, you know, source. Um, yeah, I think that was a pretty big chunk of how I identified. I mean, I had other interests. I loved to dance growing up, but that is a big part of how I was in me that came out. I don't know if it would have had I not been the second child, first daughter. I don't know, but I think I got a sense of how, how well I was doing or who I was by how well I took care of others, my younger siblings. And then when I hit my teens, I baby sat a lot. Yeah. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 05:32

Yeah, it's so interesting to just consider that at the heart of certainly our faith and many Christian faiths. 

Meagan Skidmore 05:40

Mmhmm. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 05:41

you're taught to love and be in relationship with a God who has to be talked into loving us by our obedience and by our worthiness. And so I very much identify with this like exchanging our good behavior for feeling worthy, exchanging, keeping the commandments, quote unquote, for feeling like a good person. 

Meagan Skidmore 06:09

And that's why I never said no to a calling, which is a word for the opportunity to give service among those in your faith community. Usually, at least when I was younger, among those my same age, my peer group.But even if I felt like I was quiet, I might even say shy growing up, I think I've evolved more into an introvert who can be extroverted at times. I learned that shyness is not the same as being an introvert. But even if it really stretched me out of my comfort zone, I would usually say, yes, it wasn't until I had my second baby and I was just so, so stretched, I asked to be released from a calling. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 06:52

Yeah. Um, did you have the sense that it, because I, looking back, I really feel like there are women who experienced it a couple of different kind of ways. Like way number one, it kind of works and works and it's fine and it's fine and it's going well. And then it just kind of falls off a cliff or you have the sense here and there that it's not working, but you just keep pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing. Do either of those experiences describe what you were going through or is it something different? 

Meagan Skidmore 07:21

No, no, for sure. Probably the one that resonates the most is the first. Yeah, I definitely fell off a cliff. I think I was pushed off. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:33

Okay, tell me more 

Meagan Skidmore 07:34

Okay. And I say this, you know, hindsight is 2020.I always have a hard time recounting this because I would never want my child to listen and feel that this was a true reflection of who they were then or who they are now. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:54

Yeah, that's so good. 

Meagan Skidmore 07:55

it's a reflection of me and my understanding of life, you know, on a spiritual level, an emotional, mental, relational, and, you know, at the time religious. But I've learned that my kiddo identified as LGBTQ+, and this has been about six and a half years ago. And it was through a text. So he didn't have the opportunity to tell me himself. And I've learned since then, he was scared. He was scared he would be rejected. And that just broke my heart when I learned that, not knowing how many kids and I say kids, because he had just turned 13. And so it, well, you know, it sent me in a tailspin.It was because of my upbringing, it was so traumatic. It brought up so much cognitive dissonance, like it was this, I could feel it viscerally, it affected me on a physical level. And it was hard. It was so, so hard. There were times I felt like I couldn't breathe that first summer. And so I do remember having a connection with God, I use more than one term to refer to divine. But that is one thing I truly feel like I did learn how to do. And that was to connect and hear, feel, sense, inspiration, guidance, messages, whatever you want to call it, that inner voice capital I capital V. And I remember one day feeling so overwhelmed. I mean, it was an hourly thing. It was just, I mean, it was just a constant thing. That's a better way to put it. And I just came downstairs and I just kind of collapsed in the kitchen. And I just kind of cried out, not literally cried, because there were people upstairs, but I'm just like, I need help. I do not know what I am doing. I don't know what is next. I don't know my way forward. Please help me. I feel so lost. And honestly, almost immediately, I truly felt this piece start to blanket me. And the message was just take it one step at a time, take it a day at a time, an hour at a time, even a minute at a time if you need to. Like that was the essence of the message. And you know, in a fast paced world, I realized I wasn't very good about slowing down. But that is truly what kind of saved me at that point. I was able to just focus on the next thing, literally, even if that was the next minute or the next hour and just take it one step at a time. And I'm really grateful I learned that because that's really what is needed when you are trying to make space for uncertainty, when you're trying to make space for the inevitable doubts and questions that are going to come up when you are faced with a situation similar to this certainty means that it's like kind of instant gratification a little bit. I mean, once you feel like you have internalized something and you know it for certain, but when you have to let that go, yeah, that requires a lot more patience and openness. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 11:55

Yeah, because there's a new reality coming. You don't know anything about there's a new version of you. There's a new version of your child. There's a new version of your family, possibly a new version of your faith, your perspective. And that is a lot to kind of all have come up at once and start to unravel. 

Meagan Skidmore 12:16

Yeah. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:16

So I love that one day at a time, an hour at a time, even a minute at a time, because I think in our wanting certainty, whether it's a religious certainty or just a certainty that my marriage is going to last or that I am going to be able to figure out who I am next and what I want next, that loss of certainty or that loss of the way things are can be so painful and so destabilizing. It's... 

Meagan Skidmore 12:45

It is, it totally is. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:47

And so as you are taking in, you know, information from your church about, you know, this is right, this is wrong, this is acceptable, this is not acceptable, and kind of matching it up with the lived experience of this child that you love and seeing it doesn't match and all these things are kind of unraveling, what kind of emerges in you as important to hang on to? Because I think that's what's so interesting, is that in every woman that I talk to has had some kind of either faith transition or other transition out of this is the way I used to be, this is the way I am now, there are always a couple of things like values or experiences, things that kind of come up as like North Star type guiding principles.Did you have any? And if so, what were they? 

Meagan Skidmore 13:37

Yeah, for me, it just came to this point. Yes, I did all of those things that you're talking about. I still do them, right? This is an ongoing journey, but I think it finally came to this point for me where I needed to either lean into that trust I had with my inner knowing that I had learned, developed, strengthened throughout my life, or I do what is being told me or whatever by these external sources.Well, you know when you're going against something that you just know is good to your core. You know when that incongruence is going on. I mean, I was experiencing it for a long time. It's like this floodgate just burst and I'm just like, there came a point where I had the opportunity to talk with my kiddo and just say it was kind of at a climax of a point. Some communication had kind of gotten jumbled and it was during the pandemic and it stopped participating in home church. And it was just kind of a sticky time, tumultuous time, I guess, but I took the opportunity to just look at him squarely in the eyes and take him and just say, listen, I'm learning. I know way less than I used to think that I did know that I have way more questions than I truly have answers for and that I don't know everything, but I do know that you were made perfectly. There's nothing wrong with you. You are beautiful. You are divine. You are loved and we'll figure this out.And I love you and a big hug. And I think he felt hard. Well, I know he did. You know, we're both crying at this point, but it's so important to listen to that inner voice, which often comes not just through words that we hear, but through these sensations that we have in our body and through promptings and that we lead with love. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 16:04

I think that is, first of all, so beautifully said, and second of all, it's so hard, right, to really listen to that inner voice, especially when in religious groups, in cultural groups, in gender groups, we are really told to listen to outer voices, right? What we should look like, what we should believe, what we should be thinking, who we should be pleasing, don't rock the boat, don't have big opinions that make anybody outside of you, think less of you. And so that's so important and also kind of a really sticky thing for a lot of women to actually do, to really find and trust and listen to that inner voice. So you're learning to really listen to and trust that inner voice. And one of the things that begins to happen is there's a divergence, right? Between this is what the outer authorities want you to do and then here's what my inner voice is telling me to do and it's taking me in a different direction and how is that for you? 

Meagan Skidmore 17:13

I would say the hardest part about all of that is I had to give myself permission to self-differentiate. That was hard, mostly because of the way I had been taught, and I'll just call it conditioning. It just means the way that I was taught, I needed to be, and that a woman's role was or a young person's role was, because in order to heed that inner voice, that meant doing, saying, observing, or not observing certain practices in a way that was distinctly different from those around me. And I tried, I tried for a long time, I even took other callings, I was trying really hard to make it work, because there's nothing more excruciating than feeling like you're being forced to choose between two things that are deeply meaningful to you. Your faith, it goes back six plus generations for me, I have pioneer ancestry, no pressure, and then also your child, who you care deeply about, you love with all your being, I felt like I was being ripped apart down the middle. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 18:42

And when you say pioneer ancestry, those are the people who kind of left where the Mormon church was started and traveled by wagon to Utah and set up what is kind of known as the present day headquarters of the church. So it's a long generational legacy of Mormonism in your family. 

Meagan Skidmore 19:06

Yeah, one of my predecessors was one of the first 12 apostles of the original church. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:14

There's nothing more excruciating than being forced to choose between two things that mean. 

Meagan Skidmore 19:20

I think that's why I was trying so, I mean, I really was trying to work, make it work. And after, I don't know, couple years-ish, I really don't remember, it's kind of foggy, but it just came to a point where I had to choose me. I had to choose my mental health. I had to put me first. It was, and maybe for somebody else in the same situation, it wouldn't require this, and that's fine, I honor that. But for me, it was like if you're in an abusive relationship, whether that's verbally abusive, like not respecting you in the way they speak to you, using derogatory terms, describing you as less than, or that kind of a thing, that's like a punch to your emotional gut, right? It's not obvious, like physical interaction that becomes abusive. There's no actual blood. There's no actual open wounds, right? There's not a need for triage in that way. And I think that's why the triage that is so necessary in our emotional and mental health has gone unnoticed, untended to for such a long time. But that is how it felt is I, honestly, I wrote this in my book, I kind of felt invisible. I felt like I was wrestling with things that I would bring up to others, and some would listen kindly, and then others tried to offer these great solutions, and we had come and watch this with us, and there's someone else who's gonna be there that also has children that are, I don't know, straying or something to that effect. And I was just like, that is not the energy I'm looking for, because I love my children, and there was nothing wrong with them. By that time, my oldest had left as well. So I think really standing up for my own self in all the different ways, listening to that inner voice and heeding it, acting on it, and doing the things for me that I knew were in my best interests. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 21:50

And so when you started to advocate for you and to put your mental health first and to really prioritize you, what changed? 

Meagan Skidmore 22:03

Well, I was able to consciously create safe spaces for me and create a space where I could explore and ask questions and cultivate relationships that could reciprocate that, realizing they didn't have to agree with me. I think that's just fine, but you don't have to agree to respect and to have empathy for someone, or at least try to have empathy.For me, being a podcaster, I didn't realize it at the time when I started it, but it was deeply healing for me, and still is, because I was able to have increasingly more open conversations. Like if you were to go back to where I first started, very different conversations then as to what I'm having now. I just decided to be open about it as I went, and I didn't realize how healing it would be for me, and that was truly a godsend, because I was able to connect with others who experienced similar things. They also experienced different things, but we could agree at least on showing love and honoring one another, no matter where we were at. In our journeys. But I'll tell you, Sara, my relationship with myself has deepened and expanded so much in a way that I really didn't know was possible, and I'm truly in a place where I am choosy about when and where and with whom and for how long I spend my time, which is another word for energy, because I feel full. I feel like I am meeting my purpose, and if you want to use the word calling, because I feel like everything that I have done up to this point I have been guided to do. Have I done it perfectly? I don't even know what that word means anymore. I have come as my whole self each time, and I've evolved into a new person, died so many deaths, I've lost count, and a new Meagan has emerged each time, and I like spending time with me. I like spending time with other people who fill my bucket, and my hope is that I can fill theirs too. One of my favorite sayings is, I water you, you water me, we grow together, and that's what I seek out. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 24:57

And so tell me when you decided that you wanted to write a book about this. 

Meagan Skidmore 25:03

That's a great question. Very early on, I'm talking 2021, maybe before then. For sure, I remember in 2020, so maybe been a year, I felt as I was increasing in my understanding and the light bulbs were going on and the dots were connecting for me like, wow, we have completely misunderstood this beautiful community of people. More people need to know about this, right?It was like a magnet pulling me toward this purpose to be an advocate. I felt called to be an advocate from very early on. As I continued to learn, I was like, I should write a book. It just was there. That's all I know. This pull, just this knowing I had a book inside of me. I didn't quite know how that would happen because where in the world do you find an agent? How do you get a publishing company to sign you on? I had no idea how any of that worked, but in 2022, my paths crossed with Kira Britten. It was at a conference and I remember learning. She was there with some of her authors. She had her own publishing house and I said, you what? She's like, yeah. I said, I know I have a book. You could publish it? She's like, absolutely. I didn't know something like that existed and I knew I was going to work with her. I didn't know when, but a little over a year later, I started to work with her. We're coming up on almost two years and my book is now published as of three days ago. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:56

Amazing. And as we were chatting, it's the number one new release in three categories, namely LGBTQ plus biographies and teen issues. And so making congratulations, that is such an incredible accomplishment.As we wrap up here, is there anything else that you would want people to know? Because I don't want to tell a lot of what is in your books. I want people to go buy your book, right? But what do you want people to know about you, about just anything that you haven't gotten to say yet? 

Meagan Skidmore 27:26

So I was very purposeful about my title. I knew the title of it. I call it transparency. And I spell it T-R-A-N-S-P-A-R-E-N-T-S-E-E. And the subtitle is how I learned to see through my journey as a parent of a transgender kiddo. And that title and subtitle really encompasses the essence of this journey up to this point.I began to let layers upon layers peel back from my view, like literally and figuratively, on life. And I began to see things, which is another word for knowing, understanding, that I could not unsee and then remain in my integrity. I couldn't do it. Like it just went against everything inside of me. It would be ignoring the least of these, right? Which we're taught to be especially conscientious of and extend love and mercy and grace and all of that to them. So this book, that title, it really is the epitome of what my journey has been and kind of my message and who I am. And I'm trying to continue to be ever evolving, ever trying to educate myself on there's so many things that we could have touched on, how I learned to distinguish sex from gender, from gender expression, and separate all of that from having some kind of moral value if I viewed it differently than what I had been raised to view that as. Anyway, just, yeah, I'm so excited. It took a lot, like I evolved into a different person who could publish something so raw and vulnerable. But I show up authentically in it and I'm proud of it. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 29:40

Well, Meagan, having known you over the years, it's been, first of all, incredible to see some of this transformation through social media and then to talk with you and kind of get the behind the scenes. I love Kira.She is a personal friend of mine and husband for a lot of years. We were actually in a Mormon congregation together for a little while, so the connections are pretty wild. But if people want to purchase your book, if they want to learn more about you, where should they go to find that out? 

Meagan Skidmore 30:16

So I recently updated my website. It's got all of the things on it about me. If you go to my website and then click on Speaking Media and more, scroll down, you'll see my book. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:28

What is your website? 

Meagan Skidmore 30:29

My name Meagan skidmorecoaching.com and if you scroll down There will be a link where you can order it on Amazon and I say that because if you do a search for transparency Because of the distinct spelling it it may not come up for you If you put I use my maiden name as well in the for my author name So if you use that link you can get there, but also I'm on Instagram I'm quite active on Instagram, and it's the same handle Meagan skidmore coaching.I'd love to connect with you

Sara Bybee Fisk 31:02

Okay. I will link that in the show notes for sure.And Meagan, I'm so impressed. Writing a book is, first of all, incredible. And then to share something so raw that will help so many people is just such a gift. So thank you for writing that and thank you for talking today. 

Meagan Skidmore 31:19

I so appreciate you sending you love and light.

Sara Bybee Fisk 31:25

Thank you. You too. 

Episode 135 - Staying in Relationships Even with Differences

Sometimes it's hard to imagine how we can stay in relationships where there are huge differences–political, religious, or otherwise. In this conversation with my friend Katherine Golub on her podcast Conflict Decoded, I talk about how I’ve worked with the part of myself that just wants to stay safe–to only talk to people who agree with me and see information that confirms my beliefs–to stay in relationships that matter, even when we don’t share the same views. Here’s what I cover:

• How people-pleasing kept me at the church even after my mind and heart had left the building

• The moment I realized, “I think we’re wrong about this,” and how terrifying it was to hold that belief

• How I used scripture to back up my personal beliefs and was punished for it within the church 

• The complexity of discerning who to maintain relationships with despite your differences

• Why safety must come first when moving toward relationships with people that you disagree with

Find Katherine here: 

https://callingsandcourage.com/

https://callingsandcourage.com/podcasts/

https://www.instagram.com/katherinegolub/

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57

My friend, Katherine Golub, interviewed me for her podcast, and we ended up having a really interesting conversation about what it takes to stay in relationships, even when there are differences and disagreements, sometimes very big disagreements and differences. I thought it was a really valuable conversation. It really helped me put into words how I feel a part of my brain that really wants to be safe and only wants to talk to people who agree with me and only wants to see posts and information that confirm my bias and how I have worked with that part of me to stay in some important relationships that matter to me, where we have all kinds of differences, not just political, but religious and others. I wanted to share that conversation with you as well. I would love to hear what you think is valuable from this. You can DM me or you can send me an email hello at sarafisk.coach. 

Katherine Golub 01:57

Shortly after the 2016 presidential election, I discovered that my sister had voted for Trump. I had seen so many people on social media talking about unfriending people with opposing viewpoints and even disowning family members. And although I was upset, I didn't want that. I wasn't super close to my sister at that time, as our interests hadn't always been super aligned. But when we spent time together, we got along really well. And I didn't want to throw my sister away over a vote, no matter how upset I was.And I also knew that part of why our country is in the state that it is in is because dominant white American culture is so lacking in deep, meaningful relationships. And so I called my sister without blaming or shaming her. I told her that I was really sad that she'd voted the way that she did, especially because my family has been so affected by immigration policy. And I told her that I wanted to keep our lines of communication open. And I asked if she would be willing to hear requests from me in the future related to voting. Should I ever feel called to reach out again? And she said yes. Several years after that, I facilitated a book group for white folks using Leila Saad's book, Me and White Supremacy. And my biggest takeaway from that book was that to be able to call someone in, we have to call them in the first place. We can't ask people for change or hope for them to respond unless we're in relationship with them. And since then, my sister and I have grown closer. And she recently confirmed that she did not vote for Trump the second or third time around.So with this story in mind, I invited my guests this week, Sara Fisk onto the podcast. For the first four decades of her life, Sara was a devout Mormon. And then a series of realizations called her to change course. Since then, Sara has helped thousands of high achieving women as a master certified life coach to turn people pleasing into personal power, guiding them to stop overextending, find their authentic voices and lead with clarity and authority. Her work weaves together feminist insight, nervous system and somatic tools, and her own lived experience of breaking free from religious good girl rules. I recently met Sara as a guest on her podcast, the Ex Good Girl podcast. And I enjoyed the conversation so much that I invited her to share more of her story of leaving the Mormon church in midlife and navigating her relationships afterward. This episode is more personal storytelling than most. And if you are in relationship with people who see the world very differently than you do, and are trying to figure out whether to maintain relationships, I think that listening to how Sara navigated these questions herself will likely feel supportive.As you listen, I invite you to ask yourself these questions. What needs does this challenging relationship meet for me in my life? And how might I transform this relationship in a way that honors my needs more, in addition to honoring the needs of the other person? 

Katherine Golub 05:17

So you were born into a Mormon family. Being part of the Mormon church was a really important part of your life until just a few years ago. Can you share a bit about your journey from being a really devout practicing Mormon to deciding to leave the church and where you are now? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 05:36

I grew up very devout. And in fact, I loved everything about being Mormon. I, I mean, and again, that's rose colored, so a lot of rose colored glasses looking back, but by the time that I was a college student, I was going to Brigham Young University. I felt like I finally found my people.I was in this big Mormon bubble and, um, growing up in central California where there were not a lot of Mormons was actually really hard for a lot of reasons. And so I felt like when I hit college, I was just coming into like the golden age of my Mormonism. And I was doing all the Mormon things. I was having all the positions in church that women could have, which were, you know, fairly few, but I could be in charge of other women and children. And I, you know, managed to do that and went on a mission for the church to Bolivia and loved that and came home and met the man who's my husband, Dan. And he had a brother who is gay. And Craig, his brother came out to us before we were getting married. And I think we had at the time, a very typical reaction to him, which was we love you, but that is wrong. We love you, but God says that's a sin. And so we, you know, want to just have this very clear delineation between that. Very typical love the center. I hate the sin type of reaction and language. And then for the next decade and a half, really just kind of set about to figure out how to have a relationship with Craig, because we loved him and wanted that while also dealing with the discomfort or the dissonance of watching him try to first of all, stay in the church as a gay man and seeing how soul crushing that was for him. And then just, I I've often said that my brain is kind of like a crock pot. You're going to get your dinner in eight hours. Right. And so I just began to collect all of these little bits of information about Craig, like if it's a choice, which is what the church was teaching at the time, that it was a choice for him to be gay, like, how could this be a choice? It just didn't make sense to me as I watched his life unfold and as I watched the heartbreak and the real agony that he was going through. And then as I kind of watched other members of the church who I knew were gay, I began to become friends with more members of the church and it just didn't make sense to me anymore. And I remember clearly where I was when I had what I used to call my secret private heresy, which was, I think we're wrong about this. I don't think it's a choice. And unless you've been on the inside of a religious conservative group like Mormonism that has many cult like features of group, think a very centralized authority, it might be hard for your listeners to appreciate what a monumental kind of moment that was for me to have my own private belief that very clearly violated what was being taught by the official church at that time,

Sara Bybee Fisk 09:04

it terrified me. What also terrified me was that I couldn't not believe it. It seemed so plain. It seemed so absolutely true. And so I didn't even tell my husband that I had had that thought because it was so, like I said, just terrifying that I now had this difference of belief that I didn't know what to do about it. I couldn't talk to anybody about it. I certainly couldn't ask my clergy people about it, right? I couldn't, the best thing to do for me was really just to keep it to myself.But that, you know, our amazing brains with the cognitive bias always at work, I just began to subconsciously and consciously collect all of this evidence for why I actually thought this was true. And so it became. to me, like when I look back on it, just this little teeny tiny wedge that got driven into the trunk of the tree of my Mormonism and just began to kind of drive deeper and further and further in. And I began to just see all of these things that just didn't make sense anymore. And it was a very slow process that was accelerated when my husband began to have a lot of doubts about truth claims and the things we had been taught to believe. He found a lot of information online that contradicted that, that also seemed to be true. He often says of his own experience that to him, the internet was to him like the printing press was to the Catholic church. Once you put truth within the equitable reach of everyone, now you can't control it. And so his exit from the church was actually a lot faster than mine. And in the beginning, it cost me to kind of double down a little bit because I had the sense of like, shit, if you're going to leave the church, I've got to stay then because our kids and what will they believe and our family. And so we did this like multi-year kind of seesaw thing where we would talk about things and I would agree or disagree. And I was really willing and able weirdly to give him his space to do what he needed to do because that's not common in high demand religions where people are kind of allowed to have their own experience.But because of some different experiences that had prepared me to do that, we sat our kids down and basically said, listen, dad's got to do what dad has got to do. This is what he feels strongly about. So he will not be attending church anymore. I will still be attending and we're going to go as a family. And guess what? Someday you are all going to have to make the same decision whether or not you want to do this. But for now, as your parents, this is what we decided to do. And so for a period of time, I continued to go and drag my kids because what kid wants to go and dad's going hiking right on a Sunday. And so then we began to do mountain church and lake church and hiking church. And I began to feel the freedom of not having to go and listen to a bunch of things that were making me increasingly uncomfortable every week, a firm with my outward behavior, some things I just wasn't sure I believed anymore. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:44

And so when COVID came, it just killed off the last little struggling remnants of my attendance, because by that point, my heart and my brain had really left the building. But my body, just because I was deeply a people pleaser at that time still, I just couldn't figure out how to break my entire community all at once. It just felt too scary and too overwhelming.I'm probably one of the few people that was grateful for that aspect of COVID in that it really freed me from that. And now I had an excuse to just be at home all the time. Nobody was going to church anywhere. And I just felt such incredible relief.Let me add one other thing that was incredibly relevant. This whole time that I'm really deeply involved with gay members of the church and loving them and hearing about their stories, our daughter came out in 2016. And I felt physically in my body, if I can just put this picture, the hourglass, an hourglass turned over and sands started dripping through. And I knew there was a time limit on my membership. I didn't know how I would unravel at all, because as I said, I was deeply committed to being a member of the church.It was my life and I loved it. I thought it was what I was going to do for the rest of my life. I had also been very uniquely involved in the pain that the church's teachings about being gay had caused a lot of people that I loved. And now here was my child sitting before me telling me about the crush she had on the girl on her volleyball team. And I just knew that I had to begin to unravel this because it was now going to hurt her.And I used to have a little bit of sadness about, you know, why did it have to be my kid that eventually kind of took me out? Why wasn't other people's pain good enough? I don't have a great answer for that question, frankly. But I know that as mothers, we do a lot of things for our children that we won't do for ourselves. And her coming out and kind of the way my family reacted to that, my parents really kind of lit the fire to get that shit sorted. And that was another hugely contributive event. 

Katherine Golub 15:28

Yeah, I can imagine. That cognitive dissonance that you lived with for so many years and that wedge that kept getting driven farther and farther into the tree, it just makes me think of all the other people who are having that experience right now that we have no idea because like you said, it was your own secret private heresy.I haven't had that experience in my life, but I can imagine like that terror of how important the church was to you, how important your community was to you. And so it just makes me think of there, there must be so many people who are currently living with that cognitive dissonance. And it also strikes me how Craig didn't leave you all. Like it sounds like Craig stayed in a relationship with you and you stayed in relationship with your husband. And if those relationships hadn't been maintained, would that wedge have kept getting driven further? Well, it comes up for you. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 16:32

I don't think that if we had not maintained our relationship with Craig, we would be in the same place. It's impossible to tell either way. But it was having to bump up against him as a human and his experience over and over and over again, up close. He wasn't often the distance where I could just kind of think my own thoughts about him and other him and demonize him. He was up close to me. And that was a hugely relevant part of my experience there.And the same with my husband. I knew his heart. I knew the kind of man he was. And so I don't think there's a way that we would have ended up here without having to live those two relationships up close. 

Katherine Golub 17:18

Yeah. And that it took you the time that it took you to get to the place that you got to. And it's like, who knows what timeline other people need, right? Your daughter came out in 2016 and then you talked about COVID. So there, it was a few years after she came out that you decided to leave. Was there a final straw? Was there like a, okay, I'm just not going back or like that final wedge in the tree, which made it topple over. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:49

At that point, those last couple years, I was maybe attending once a month, once every other month. I was squarely on the like, we need to check on Sara and see what's wrong with her kind of list. But by then, I had also become more vocal about my feelings about gay people, what I think Jesus taught us about loving, vulnerable, marginalized groups. The church had also changed its teaching from, this is a choice to, we don't know, and we're not going to say either way. It seems pretty obvious to me that it's not a choice. There's really only one other option, but they were not willing to name that. And I think there's a lot of cowardice in that, but they would just call it, we're waiting for God to give us the answer. But in that time, I had started to become a lot more vocal about my personal beliefs, about using scripture to back up my beliefs. And I had begun to be punished for that. And punishment in Mormon land looks like you lose positions of authority, you lose the ability to address the congregation as a whole. You kind of get relegated to jobs within the congregation. No one is paid in a typical Mormon congregation. Everyone is a volunteer. And I had been the president of the women's organization and the president of the children's organization. And the only calling or position where women are allowed to instruct men is a Sunday school teacher. And so I had been a Sunday school teacher and it was in one of those Sunday school lessons about the Good Samaritan that I said, who in our day is this kind of broken bleeding man by the wayside? If you're familiar with the story, there's a guy who gets attacked and his enemy passes by. And instead of just leading him to die, he stops and takes care of him. And so I was asking the question, who is this our compassion and our protection? I was called in to the bishop's office, who is the clergy in charge. And I was told that I would no longer have that calling. And so all of that had been going on for the years before that. Rachel, my daughter had been kicked out of the young women's organization because she was starting to make similar comments of like, I don't understand why women can't have more authority. And so we had begun to be punished and kind of pushed to the margins of our congregation as a family for speaking out about some of these things.And so I was hanging on by a people pleasing thread at that point. Really, I was really concerned about what my parents would think that was the biggest kind of heaviest thing for me. They are still to this day, very, very devout. And I knew that it would crush them. I knew it would crush my grandma who lived with them, who I love very much. And so it wasn't hard. I didn't miss it. I felt such a tremendous sense of relief when COVID came around. But you're right, it took me the time that it took me because there was a lot to unravel. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 21:19

I didn't have a relationship with my parents outside of the church. I didn't have a relationship with friends outside of the church.I was a conservative homeschooling mom of five and our entire homeschool community were other Mormon families who had watched my husband leave the church with a lot of suspicion and a lot of questions. And I had really struggled to maintain connection and friendship in the wake of his leaving. And so it really felt like everything was at stake in terms of my community and connections. And I knew that I would take my family with me. I had no doubt. It was also really fraught. 

Katherine Golub 22:07

And so what has happened to those relationships? Like I hear you saying that you were afraid of breaking your parents' hearts, that you didn't want to lose all of your friends and your community.What has happened with those relationships since you left? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:21

I did break my parents' heart, and it was either break theirs or break mine. It was the bravest and the hardest thing I've ever done to sit them down because I wanted them to hear it from me.I wanted to explain to them anything that they wanted to know. I was really begging them to see me as a person and not this caricature of someone who leaves the church because inside of Mormon land, there really is this definite caricature of someone who leaves. They are misguided. They are led astray. They have fallen under Satan's influence. They are apostate. There's all of these words and cautions that are regularly kind of thrown out around trusting them, talking to them, associating with them. Letting them be part of your trusted inner circle of acquaintances. When I sat down with them, I really wanted them to understand that the reason that I felt like I had to leave and not go back was that I could no longer reconcile the Jesus that they taught me to believe in and the Jesus I was seeing at church. I mean, by now, Trump's first presidency had come and gone and I had been up to that point a lifelong Republican. I had never voted for a Democrat. I lovingly call President Obama my favorite president that I never voted for because I was just convinced and convicted by my upbringing that being a Republican was not only what Jesus wanted me to do, but just the politically morally correct thing to do. But by that time, I had broken with the Republican Party as well, and I had done it in kind of a really public way unwittingly, and I had received a ton of backlash from my congregation about that.And so I brought what I thought was this really compelling, curated pile of evidence of like, look, this is the Jesus you taught me to believe in. This is the Jesus that I love and feel so convicted about, and this is what I'm seeing, and I can't make them match anymore. I can't, and that's not my fault. And so if I am wrong, I fully trust that someday, you know, at the pearly gates, I'm going to be like, oh my gosh, wait, what? The Mormons were right, and Jesus will say, I know, but I totally get it. I totally understand why you got confused and we'll be fine. And so my message to my parents was essentially like, can we just believe that Jesus is who he says he is? And he's like, if I'm lost, he's busy saving me. You guys don't have to do it, but if I'm not lost, then can you just see me? And it was kind of a mixed bag reaction. A little bit of yes, a little bit of no, a lot of let's just not talk about it. 

Katherine Golub 25:42

And has it remained like that? A little bit of yes, a little bit of no, and a lot of let's not talk about it. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 25:47

Yeah, pretty much, I'm the oldest girl. I think for our oldest girls out there, hello, hello. It explains a lot, right? That we have this like compelling desire to be seen and we are often roped into being the one that kind of manages the relationships of others in the family that was very much me.I was the negotiator, kind of the diplomat of the family. And interestingly enough, I wasn't the first to leave. I'm the oldest of six children and everyone and their spouse has left except my youngest brother and his spouse is not active in the way that everyone thinks Mormons should be active. And so my parents had already been dealing with a fair amount of upheaval in their belief system. And I was the manager of it. I was the one orchestrating family get togethers and talks about like, how do you feel about this? And how do you feel about this? I think by the time it was finally me, they were just so heartbroken because I was the super Mormon in the family as well. I was the high achieving, I'm gonna do it all, have all the positions, do all the things. And when it came time to just lay all of that down, their heartbreak, I think was yes, that I was leaving but also that this kind of bridge to the rest of the family was, that was changing as well.But I continued to have lots of conversations about that with them because it really mattered to me that they stay connected and that their grandkids, they have 22 grandchildren, half of which are not straight, that they have kind of an accurate view of their grandkids, which translates really to, I wanted to control how they saw the gay and queer members of our family. I really wanted them to be viewed with love, with compassion, with lack of judgment. And so even after leaving, I continued to have a lot of these conversations where I was really trying to shape their view and it wasn't working. They were not unkind, I wanna be very clear about that. They were not unkind, they tried in their way to be loving but it just became really clear to me that I was spending all of this time and energy and effort trying to shape their view of me, trying to shape their view of my brothers and sisters who had left, of their queer grandkids and they just were not that interested in it or their interests had kind of gone as far as it was gonna go.And in our last conversation, I knew it was our last conversation, they did not. I think they kind of relied on me to regularly kind of bring up the family issues. I just said, I'm realizing in all of our talking, you've never once asked me what it was like for me to leave the church, what it was like for me to lose my worldview, my community, my friends, my ideas of what happened after this life, heaven, right? And I said, you've never asked me about that. And my mom and dad just looked at me in total silence. And I knew then that was the end of these conversations because I had literally like handed them their line, right? Ask me about this, please see me, let me tell you. And they just didn't want to. 

Katherine Golub 29:34

I imagine that being really painful and I feel gratitude that you have all of your brothers and sisters with you. And just that like, oh, okay, I'm done having these conversations now. I'm imagining some grief. I'm imagining some relief. I'm imagining. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 29:51

both. It was a tremendous amount of relief because I could just plainly see it. This is the end of this type of conversation.And the grief, that's my work to do on my own. And what it allowed me to do is pivot to a different kind of conversation with them about what's on sale at Costco and family events and how's aunt so-and-so doing. And I still find a place to have connection with them, but it's just not about any of the things that we used to talk about, but it's still connection and it's still valuable to me. I had to kind of kill that off in myself because I was really the one driving it, really pushing for it, really wanting it. And now that I've put that down, I think I can appreciate them for the good people that they are and the real heartbreak that this has been for them and really kind of separate our experiences and just let it be what it is. 

Katherine Golub 31:07

So that wasn't your last conversation with them ever. That was your last conversation with them about trying to change their minds and see you fully and their grandchildren. And, and I'm curious about your discernment process around who else you maintained relationships with. I want to acknowledge that there are many good reasons not to maintain relationships, right? If the relationships are harming us, if not being able to be fully seen is harming us, if there's so many good reasons to not maintain relationships. So I ask these questions not with an assumption that that is the correct response by any stretch of the imagination. And also me, you hold privileges that Craig, that your queer nieces and nephews and nibblings do not. And there's some responsibility that comes with that privilege. And it's complex how to discern who to maintain relationships with and who not to. And so I'm curious, what has guided you? How have you discerned which friendships to maintain it? Have you maintained friendships? How has that process been for you? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 32:19

I appreciate that introduction to this question and I agree. And I have always felt like it is the job of the people who can feel safe in conversation to have the hard conversations. This isn't the work of, for example, my queer nieces, nephews, and nibblings to advocate for themselves this way, unless they want to, right? Some of them do to varying degrees, but most of because that's the vibe they get.I don't have the final answer for this either because a lot of this work is ongoing. I think initially, like I said, grateful for COVID, I didn't have to get together with anybody for a long time. And it really gave me a beautiful space to be very introspective about who I wanted to reestablish connection with. A couple of years before COVID, my kids had all wanted to go back to school. So we had exited that homeschooling community. And that was also just a big fucking relief to not have to keep up the performance of faithfulness to Mormonism that I knew they were looking for from me.While I was privately and secretly struggling with so many different aspects of continuing to go to church, I continued for some time to maintain cordial relationships. And then after kind of COVID, we were getting back together. I remember getting invited to a birthday lunch with all of those moms and feeling really just conflicted about going because I was now wearing clothes that were going to very much signal I was out. Mormons wear a garment as underwear that is long in the legs, long shorts. It used to cover all the way over the shoulders. It's been modified recently, so it doesn't cover quite. But if I show up in short shorts and a tank top, that is almost offensive to them. And I knew that and I thought, I'm wearing this, can I show up this way? And so I decided to go wearing my short shorts and tank top more as like a test of my own discomfort. And I have to say during this time as well, I had become a coach and I had begun to get a lot of training in some therapeutic models and I began to work with people and just really understand my own people pleasing in a completely different way.It's the work that I do now is helping women kind of unraveling this performative people-pleasy codependent dance that we're taught to do. And so I went to the lunch mostly because I wanted to observe my own experience as I was doing that in real time with them. And I wanted to see them. I mean, Katherine, it's hard to also convey how much I loved them and how much they loved me and how much I loved their children and they loved mine. And we had this really just incredibly beautiful working relationship for so many years. And underneath that for me was always a little bit of anxiety that they would find out that I was struggling or that I didn't believe everything quite the same way they did.And when I went to the lunch, I just remember sitting there thinking, what am I doing here? Why am I spending my time and my energy, which are like my two most precious resources to build these relationships? I know who they voted for. I know what they think of me. I know what they think of my husband. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 36:25

I know what they think of Rachel. And I at the time was pretty convinced that it was a waste of my time and that I didn't want to be nurturing or really fostering those relationships. I felt a sense of some judgment toward them. I felt a sense of fear about what they believed and how they voted and how I felt like it was affecting me.And by now, Trump's not present anymore. And so a lot of the threat of him and his ideology didn't feel super present, but it still felt very present to me and them. And as I look back, that kind of group tribal part of my brain was really active in making them them and me me like now it was us and them and they were and so after that I didn't put a lot of energy and effort into maintaining relationships they would continue to invite me to things I always had a good reason not to go they would update me about their kids what they were doing and I you know I always enjoyed hearing about that it was also a little bittersweet because their kids were doing some of the things I thought my kids would grow up to do serving a mission is a big Mormon thing I lived in Bolivia for a year and a half and though I'm not super keen on what I did and how I did it the experience of living in another place was hugely transformational to me and it really is just an incredible opportunity to get to know and love other people and I wanted my kids to have that and so their kids were growing up and going on missions and there was some bittersweetness about some of those pieces of news that I would get but by and large I kind of maintained a healthy distance I fostered my own new relationships with people who I could feel really connected to in terms of belief and worldview and I have a really beautiful community of friends who I feel really connected to and then it wasn't I really didn't think it was much of a problem until Trump was elected again and there was something about seeing in their social media posts those who were posting the support and the joy at his reelection that just really was so devastating for me kind of all over again because now it seemed like you voted for someone who told us what he's going to do and that's okay with you like it's very clear what he's going to do and you're saying that that's okay and so I kind of took that information in through my very human cognitive bias tribal think brain and really kind of made a decision that I was not going to put any time and energy into those friendships anymore. 

Katherine Golub 39:37

I know that you did talk about one friendship you've maintained, and that's evolving when we talked earlier, and I'm curious if there have been people that you've decided to keep in your life, and if you'd like to share about that. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 39:51

Yeah, I think if we would have had this conversation several weeks ago, I might have just been like, yep, sometimes friendships fade and you just don't have anything in common anymore and that's okay. And I think the murder of Charlie Kirk had a huge impact on me because it forced me to look at this friendship through a different lens. And let me say what I mean by that. So in August, I got the text again. Hey, I'd love to take you out for your birthday lunch. And it was from one of the women in this group who I was closest to and I love her. I know her heart. She is one of the most beautiful, loving, caring people walking around on the planet. And if I had heartburn over anyone, it would have been her. But I also just did not want to get together with everyone again. And I assumed that she meant everyone. And so in a moment of just kind of wanting to tell her the truth and not just avoid it like I had before, I responded and I said, hey, I just don't think I want to spend time and energy maintaining friendships with people who just see the world so differently than I do and who want such different things.It just doesn't feel good to me. It doesn't feel right. And thank you, but no, thank you. And she responded with so much compassion and heartbreak. And I realized that I had been assuming a lot of things. I didn't know for sure that she was someone who had voted for Trump. And so I asked her, I said, if you feel comfortable sharing with me who you voted for and why, that would help me here. And she did. And I could clearly see in that moment that we were just afraid of different things. She had in her own mind, really good reasons why she had decided that the unborn were a very vulnerable group to her and protecting unborn children was filled with so much importance for her that it kind of outweighed everything else that mattered to her. She doesn't have anybody who's gay in her life. She is not a member of any kind of marginalized group at all. She's white passing. I'm sure she loves immigrants and she comes from an immigrant family, but it wasn't present to her in the same way that it really was for me in my experience. And so I had to sit with her message and just look at how assumptive I had been about so many things. And I had to grapple with the fact that I had stopped noticing my cognitive bias. I had stopped noticing that desire to just retreat into my bubble where everybody believed the same thing, which by the way, that was being a Mormon. It's just the irony of like, I don't want to have conversations with someone who believes different because it threatens what I believe or it makes me feel uncomfortable in this way. I had to grapple with the fact that was my cult brain that was really showing up hard. And I reached back out and I just said, I want to have a conversation with you about this. I want to stay in conversation because this instinct that I have to just burn the bridge, to retreat into my group, I can see it and I can see what it is doing to me. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 43:50

And I'm just one of millions and millions of people who this is happening to in some way or another. And then when Charlie Kirk was murdered, I just thought this is insane. This is insanity that we are witnessing.And the only way to come back to a place of sanity is to figure out how to coexist with people who believe differently than I do and who have different solutions for the problem. But we've got to figure out how to do this in a way that people are not murdered. 

Katherine Golub 44:27

earlier when you were talking about the Mormon who leaves and the caricature of that person that we don't trust them, we don't talk to them, we don't associate with them. We could use the same language often for many people, many of us on the left, we're just like, no, I'm not going to be their friend, I'm not going to be in relationship with them.So I'm curious what guidance or words of wisdom or insights you might want to share with folks who are listening who are far more likely to be on the left. Some people might be like, yeah, right, maintain relationship. Other people may be like, hell no, no, I don't want to do that. Or some might be grappling with conflict with someone that they love in their lives or regretting a rift in a relationship. What guidance or insights might you have for folks who are listening who are just weighing all of this right now? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 45:25

First of all, it takes safety and an ability to feel safe, to move toward relationships with people that you disagree with. And if you are a member of a group that is attacked or marginalized, I don't think that's your job right now, unless you want it to be, right? Um, so first of all, you get to pick, you get to choose. This is not prescriptive in any way.I think for me, I have my hand on two things. I have my hand on my friend and who I know her to be. And I have my hand on the marginalized groups of people who I feel are in danger, their rights, their dignity, their ability to exist in free and completely human ways, and I have to have my hands on those two things. There are going to be red lines, right? Abolishing gay marriage, masked men, picking up immigrants. I have to be able to stand for and verbalize that those are my red lines in those relationships. If, if I were to say that to my friend and she were to shut me down, then that would indicate to me that this isn't a relationship where both of our ideas can show up and exist in tension together. And so as I have my hands on those two things, I also have to be able to be who I am and say what needs to be said so that I feel authentic, so that I feel like I'm, all of me is really here and seen and heard, not agreed with, because I don't agree with everything she's saying, but I can understand and see and hear why she feels that way, mostly because I used to be that and believe that so deeply, but I think those, those are the elements that matter to me, right, that I have my hand on her and who she is. I have my other hand on the groups that I feel are threatened in really significant, real ways, and that I can show up and say what I need to say. 

Katherine Golub 47:40

I think that distinction between being heard and respected and being agreed with is such an important distinction. I really appreciate you separating those two things out. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 47:53

I think I could be in relationship with anyone where those things are present and we don't have to agree. 

Katherine Golub 47:59

I know the answer to this question, but I imagine since I was asking it, other people may be asking it too, did you end up changing anyone's mind? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 48:10

Yes, when you said that was the last of our hard conversations with my parents in my mind, I was like, we had one more. And I went to them during Trump's second presidential run and asked them to both vote for Kamala Harris. My mother did, my father did not, but he did not vote for Trump. And I considered that a win.And then I have a dear friend from college. He was the president of the college Republicans when we were in college together, great man. I know his heart. I love him. And he and I had long text conversations about why I felt like him voting for Kamala Harris was really the only way for him to get his Republican party back. And that if Harris was not elected, that kind of goodbye, right to, to, to the Republicans, I mean, don't we kind of long for those guys again, compared to who we have now, right? That may be another conversation. I will say that I look back to the John McCain's and to some of the Bush's, I guess I won't say all of them. And you know, even Mitt Romney and just think that we need a healthy political system requires healthy debate and opposition where we can really work out our ideas the way that I think we used to do a much better job. And so that was essentially my argument to him. And so he voted for Kamala Harris as well. 

Katherine Golub 49:37

I really appreciate that you got him to vote for Kamala Harris. And I appreciate that like, we just had our own little model.Like it would be a fascinating conversation to keep going. We may not end up agreeing and I don't know who am I to argue that McCain wasn't better than Trump. I remember watching the video of him voting for healthcare and the chills and gratitude in that moment. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 49:59

Yeah, I have shown the Obama McCain debate to my kids and been like, guys, this is what it used to be like. This is what we used to be able to do.And we need to be able to debate our ideas without violence and to coexist together. 

Katherine Golub 50:15

I'm all for debate without violence. And these are hard times and so I'm grateful to get to have this conversation with you, there's about so many women who could benefit from working with you.So can you just share briefly about the work that you do and how people can learn more from you? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:33

Yes, I teach women how to really find their personal hour and step out of the people pleasing that is fucking that up. And you can find me at Sarafisk.coach. Yes, dot coach is actually a URL and S-A-R-A-F as in fantastic I-S-K dot coach. And on Instagram, I have a podcast called the Good Girl podcast. And that's where I do a lot of talking about what I want to see in the world. 

Katherine Golub 51:05

Well, thank you for doing a lot of talking about what you want to see in the world because I also want to see it and I'm grateful for the work that you're doing and getting to have the second conversation with you. So thank you. 

Episode 134 - Keep Going but Be Gentle

Even with the powerful growth that can happen in coaching, the pressure cooker we’re all living in—the broken systems, the financial stress, the world that feels terrifying—can make everything feel harder, and much of it is beyond our control. But it doesn’t feel hard because you’re weak; it feels hard because it is hard. In this episode, I talk about how remarkable it is that we keep going—keep showing up for ourselves and others—despite it all, and how to be gentler with ourselves in the process. Here’s what I cover:

• A powerful coaching conversation about self-doubt and resilience

• What it looks like to let more than one thing be true at once

• Why “every little bit counts” when everything feels impossible

• How to know when your body is asking for rest instead of pushing harder

• The power of staying connected to yourself when you can’t fix everything in the world 

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

I was having a conversation with a client today that turned out to be just such a beautiful moment between the two of us. I wanted to have the same conversation with you because she showed up to her session today really struggling with a lot of self-doubt and self-criticism. 

 01:17

She is high achieving. She has a full-time career that matters a lot to her. She has children who she loves and wants to show up for. She is married and wants to be a loving and attentive partner. And she is in perimenopause. 

 01:37

And today it just felt for her like it was kind of all coming down around her. And that's what we're working on, right? She's the type of woman who is keeping all the plates spinning. And a lot of the value that she feels in her life or why she is valuable is because she does keep everything going, right? 

 01:58

She can handle it. I'm going to call her Angie. And Angie gets a lot of like reward and recognition for being the person who can get multiple projects done at once. And she is smart and she is, people rely on her. 

 02:15

She comes through. And all of that today felt really, really heavy for her. And we ended up doing some coaching, but also just having a conversation where I said, Angie, one of the things that is hard about being a coach is that, you know, I'm trying to help you develop skills and learn how to do things differently, which I'm capable of doing, which you're showing up to do. 

 02:44

But very rarely do we sit back and name like all of the broken structures that you are trying to exist in and all of the pressures and all of the kind of outside influences that are happening right now. 

 03:03

Like we live in a unique time in the world when democracy in our country is on the decline. And that has an effect, right? We live in a time when the gap between people who have billions and billions of dollars and people who feel like they're not going to make it from week to week is just getting wider and wider. 

 03:27

And that is a dynamic that we live with that we can't really fix here in our coaching sessions. And so in some ways, I want to be honest that while I am able to help you develop new skills and learn how to handle your emotions better and speak up and set boundaries and know what you want and learn how to trust yourself. 

 03:49

Like all of those things are true and you can do them. There's also a certain amount of bullshit that's happening in the world, in your body, that we're not going to be able to control because it's bigger than us. 

 04:05

And I asked her, would it feel helpful if we just talked about the pressure cooker that you're living in that has nothing to do with you? And she said, oh, it just feels like I'm being the victim. I said, Angie, we are the victims in some ways, right? 

 04:23

Things are happening to us that we don't control. We can always choose a response. And that's what I think coaching is really good for is helping you choose a response. But that doesn't mean that the broken systems are not there. 

 04:38

And so we just went through and talked about what is it like to live in a country where you see scenes playing out on the news that you never thought would happen in your country. And the sadness and the worry, the way that friendships and relationships have been fractured and affected by politics, pandemics, by the way we parent differently, right? 

 05:05

We go to different churches. Like there's, there's fault lines in a lot of our relationships now that aren't for reasons that we fully control. I know that I am grieving relationships and friendships that are with people who are still alive. 

 05:24

They're not gone, but the relationship is different. There's a financial stress that so many of us are living with now that didn't used to exist, right? Everything costs more. Everything feels like it costs more. 

 05:40

Everything feels like it takes so much more effort. In a lot of ways, that low-level financial stress is constant and relentless. And while, yeah, we can work on some of the way you think about that and the way your parts are showing up in coaching, there's a very real financial stress that we're not going to be able to easily alleviate. 

 06:07

And that takes a lot of people doing more than we are able to do. Our elected officials have to act in our behalf instead of against us, against our best interests in a way that it seems like is happening all over the place. 

 06:25

The world sometimes can feel terrifying, war, hurt, anger, rage. The news can sometimes feel like a horror show that you can't look away from. Climate change, wars, rights being rolled back, political chaos. 

 06:46

It's all happening at once. And we're supposed to just go to work, make dinner, try to carve out something that feels normal in this. And I said, Angie, you're doing amazing. You are still getting up. 

 07:05

You are still showing up. You are still trying. I think one of the things that gets tricky for women is, do I rest or do I still show up? And so we talked about, is this your body showing you I need some rest? 

 07:22

Right? Being in perimenopause is really, really hard. Your body, it feels like betrayal. It feels like systems are not working anymore the way they worked once or were supposed to. And it can feel like there aren't ready solutions. 

 07:43

There isn't a pill that you can take that's going to make you feel better in 60 minutes like a headache. So many of us are suffering with a lot of health consequences that we don't yet have really good fixes for. 

 07:57

You're exhausted, but you can't sleep. You're hungry, but nothing sounds good. Your body feels like it's doing things against your will. I can't remember words. I walk into rooms and forget why. And I'm also still trying to figure it out. 

 08:12

And she said, I do feel like it's hard to know. Do I rest or do I show up? And that's when we talked about letting more than one thing be true at once. Like we're so exhausted. And there are reasons why we want to keep showing up. 

 08:33

That's one thing women know how to do is to keep showing up, especially when everything is falling apart. I'm not saying that you should, because if multiple things can be true at once, maybe you also need to rest. 

 08:49

We have done some incredible things as women, carried humans in our bodies, held families together while holding jobs down, doing things to become better caregivers, better partners, better mothers, all while going to the store and making sure there's something for dinner. 

 09:09

In some ways, we have been handling impossible things our entire lives. And the fact that that now feels hard, that's because it is hard. It doesn't have anything to do with being weak or being too emotional. 

 09:25

But if we can let more than one thing be true, what if we can show up and we can rest? What if we can keep going because there are things that matter to us and reasons why we want to keep going, but we don't have to keep everything going? 

 09:43

What if there are some things that we can let go of? Angie, in so many ways, is resilient in a way that she's not giving herself credit for. She's been through heartbreak and loss. She's been through transitions that terrified her. 

 10:03

She has had things happen that she thought would bury her and days when she was sure that she couldn't do it. And we acknowledge that together. And that she is still here. She's still trying. She's still loving people when it's not easy. 

 10:22

And she's still hoping, even when it feels foolish. She is still showing up, even when she is not sure what it's supposed to look like. And that's not weakness. What if you too are allowed to be tired and proud of yourself for showing up? 

 10:40

What if you're allowed to be exhausted by all of this and still recognize that you're doing something remarkable just by getting out of bed tomorrow? What if we can be scared about the state of the world today and still find moments of joy and beauty and silliness and connection and reverence and awe because those things exist together. 

 11:11

And I just want to clarify, when I say keep going, it doesn't mean be fine. It doesn't mean be okay or that everything, that you should look like everything is going well, that you should push down your feelings or smile through it or be positive and grateful. 

 11:30

I don't mean any of that. I don't mean do more, try harder or try better. I just mean don't abandon yourself in this process. Stay connected to the part of you that needs rest and give that part some rest. 

 11:46

Stay connected to the part of yourself that's feeling whatever it's feeling, exhausted, angry, panicked, scared. And just let yourself acknowledge that without judgment. And then decide just what is the next thing that I want to do? 

 12:05

I want to sit right here and take five minutes to myself. I want a drink of water. I want to text a friend. I want to read a poem. Rest when you need to rest. Rest is so essential. And it is a right. 

 12:23

You deserve to rest. You're doing so great. You're doing so much. I know it. Maybe you could ask for help. Maybe you could let someone love you in a way that you don't normally let them. Maybe you could stop trying to do it alone. 

 12:41

Those are all ways to give ourself some relief and rest. Back when blogging was the thing, I had this idea that I wanted to start a blog and I would start it and then I would stop it and then I would start it and I would stop it. 

 12:56

And I was like, this isn't a blog. This doesn't count because I'm not doing it consistently and I'm not growing, you know, my readership and blah, blah, blah. I don't know. This was probably around 2000, I don't know, five or six. 

 13:08

And I decided to change the name of my blog to Every Little Bit Counts because chronically I was telling myself that only the big things counted. And I wanted to cultivate the belief that every little bit counts. 

 13:26

Getting out of bed, that counts. Putting on real pants, gold star. Feeding yourself something that is nourishing, fantastic. If it's just cereal, that counts. Saying no to one thing that I really don't want to do, that counts. 

 13:48

When I text a friend and say, I'm really struggling today with the weight of how everything feels, that counts. Letting myself cry, that counts. Purposefully finding one little reason to be joyful or happy that counts. 

 14:08

I think for so many of us who are used to just carrying the load and Angie, all the plates spinning, we get into thinking like, it only counts if I keep all the plates spinning. That's not true. Any plate that you can keep spinning with all the shit show that is going on around us, that counts. 

 14:31

What I wanted, Angie, to reflect on and what I want each of you to know is that you're amazing. You are not doing this wrong. If you're tired, if you're grieving, that's right. You're not being dramatic. 

 14:52

You have a heart that cares about connection, about other people. If you're scared about money and the future and the world, that's not being weak. That's you seeing potential issues and being awake in the world, being awake in a world that is full of pain sometimes. 

 15:14

And you're doing amazing. You are whole and beautiful and perfect in a world that is broken. And you're still here. Trying to make it better. Trying to take good care of yourself and the people you love. 

 15:33

That's fucking extraordinary. And you're not alone. I know it feels lonely. I feel lonely. I think that's something kind of unique about the pain that we feel as we look out kind of in the suffering of the world. 

 15:48

It can feel really heavy and really lonely. And a lot of us would say that we're barely holding it together. And in a way, that's actually the point. We are all in this impossible moment together, doing our best with bodies that are changing, relationships that are shifting, a future that seems uncertain, a world that feels like it's losing its mind some days. 

 16:17

And we're doing it together. Keep going, but be gentle. This isn't something that gets to be done perfectly. There's not a perfect way to do this. It is not something that we are all going to figure out. 

 16:33

We are not going to heal these global systems of oppression and disenfranchisement. We are going to be able to make a difference in our circles with our votes, with the communities that we belong to. 

 16:50

That's where we can really be nurtured and show up to nurture. Don't lose sight of the fact that we all exist in these broken systems and we're still showing up. We are not going to be able to fix all of these systems, but we can stay connected to ourselves. 

 17:10

We can stay connected to our needs. We can have a nap or a glass of water or chocolate chip cookie or a conversation with a friend whenever we need. And we have to keep choosing ourselves that way so that we can continue to show up for other people that we care about. 

 17:30

And I know you're trying so hard. I know you're doing the best you can. I know you're showing up for the people that you love with the best parts of your effort. And it's not always the same. So take a deep breath. 

 17:47

Put your hand on your chest or your heart and say this with me. I am doing the best I can. And that's more than enough. I am showing up the best way I can. And it's going to be enough. Because it is. 

 18:05

We're going to be okay. Not perfect. Not all fixed. That's not the point. That's not what we've been going for. But we're going to be okay. And we're going to do it together. I have a lot of faith in individual people who want to create places of peace, places of beauty, places of rest, places of acceptance. 

 18:27

And we're going to do that together. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.

Episode 133 - What Avoiding Conflict Really Costs You

Conflict is one of the most paradoxical things I’ve encountered—in my own life and in the lives of my clients. For those of us who have been shaped by good girl conditioning, conflict most often feels like danger and disconnection. But when it happens within a container of safety and self-connection, it becomes a doorway to vulnerability, intimacy, and power. In this episode, I explore why we avoid conflict and share personal stories that demonstrate the freedom you can find when you say what needs to be said. Here’s what I cover:

• How the emotional burden of unspoken words lives in the body

• How cultural and gender conditioning teach people socialized as women to stay silent

• Two real-life examples of how I apply what I teach about conflict and communication

• Why self-love and compassion are essential for knowing when and how to speak up

• How practicing the skills to have hard conversations leads to freedom and connection

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

One of the most paradoxical things that I have dealt with in my own life and with clients, both in personal, private coaching and my group coaching program, is conflict. 

 01:12

Conflict is something that almost universally by myself and by good girls, we just, we don't want it. We don't want to run into it. We don't want to have anything to do with it. It feels bad. It feels dangerous. 

 01:25

It feels scary. We don't feel like we're good at it. We're worried about, you know, being too emotional and not being able to control our emotions in conflict. We're worried about not knowing what to say, feeling silly or stupid or dumb. 

 01:39

We're worried about potential danger, right? Not feeling safe. And all of those things are true. And when conflict is done well with people who are either willing to do conflict well with you or with whom situations of safety are present, conflict is actually the door to freedom, to vulnerability, to connection, to intimacy, and to power. 

 02:09

And it is such a paradox because it feels like disconnection. It feels like danger, but it's actually the pathway to deeper connection. It is transformational. It's just such a mind fuck because this thing that feels so potentially overwhelming, so potentially scary in certain circumstances can actually be so healing. 

 02:40

And I want to tell you about a couple of incidents of conflict that I have had where I've leaned in in two different ways. And actually, I'm going to do a two-part series. I'm going to talk about two conversations this episode and two conversations next episode that really have contributed in huge ways to me seeing myself differently and being able to show up in the world as a person who can have conflict in ways that feels healthy and that gets me more of what I want and need. 

 03:16

And at the very least, allows me to say what needs to be said. So many of the women that I talk with, that DM me, that I meet through coaching, myself included, we carry the burden of all of these things that we are not able to say. 

 03:33

And when something is not said, the effect of that, the emotion, the burden, the load of that lives in the body. And so it is no wonder that we feel this press of resentment or anxiety or grief or rage or sadness or like we're not heard and we're not seen. 

 03:54

A lot of that is because there are conversations that we don't know how to say. There are words, there are opinions, there are needs, there are wants that we have silenced and it creates a real weight. 

 04:10

The emotions accumulate and then those feelings like take up residency in our bodies and they create distance from ourselves and from others. And another part of the paradox is that we're staying silent to avoid discomfort, but that silence itself becomes another layer of discomfort that we just live with. 

 04:34

I can't tell a story without giving it some framing, right? Because there is a really good reason. There are lots of really good reasons why cultural and gender conditioning teaches us to stay silent. 

 04:48

It's the good girl programming. Don't make waves. Keep the peace. Be nice. Don't be too much, too loud, too needy, too dramatic, too emotional, too opinionated. And the fact that we have been given millions and millions of those little micro messages our whole lives is why it's hard to say what needs to be said. 

 05:09

You can be labeled as difficult or bitchy and bossy and dramatic. And all of that messaging is real. When you take up space, you're selfish or aggressive. It's real. And what happens is that women are taught that our voices are less valuable, less authoritative, and there is an expectation that we defer to expertise outside of us, usually men. 

 05:40

We're socialized to smooth over conflict, to manage everybody else's comfort. And there's a real cost of being likable versus being honest. And so many of us have run into that, or we have seen other women run into that and pay the price for that. 

 05:58

And so it serves as another mechanism to keep us in our place. Maybe you can remember early experiences where you were told that you're overreacting. And so your feelings weren't valid, or your perceptions were dismissed or questioned or even made fun of. 

 06:19

Maybe you learned that expressing needs led to punishment or people that you loved and wanted to be connected to would withdraw from you or that you were labeled ungrateful. All of that really, really matters. 

 06:34

I received a lot of that messaging as well. And so it is kind of in the context of all of that messaging that I want to share these stories. One of the things that I always want to be is doing this same work right alongside you. 

 06:49

It's important to me to, in the words of one of my former mentors, to be an example of what is possible and to constantly be testing out what I am teaching on myself. And these two stories are good examples of that. 

 07:07

And they're examples of what I want for each of you. So both of these randomly happened at the gym. I go to a rec center. It's more of like a, I'm the younger crowd. Let's just, let's just put it that way. 

 07:22

And so there's a lot of older people there. And I was using a machine with an attachment, one of the cable machines at the gym, and a much older, much larger man, this guy's probably, I don't know, over six feet tall, easily 250 plus pounds, approached me. 

 07:40

I was listening to music. I didn't see him until he was right in my peripheral vision. It startled me. And he was waving a different attachment at me. And he said, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to be using this. 

 07:55

And he was holding up, you know, the attachment that he thought I should be using. And I had a fawn response. I smiled. I started like laughing and deflecting. And I said, oh, you know, you startled me. 

 08:16

What? Tell me what you said. I didn't hear you. And so I invited him to tell me again. And so he repeated, you know, you're doing it wrong. This is what you should be doing. And when you do it this way, you know, this could happen. 

 08:28

And then I felt a little bit of anger and irritation. And so I smiled and said, you know what? I'm comfortable with how I'm using this. I've seen other people use it this way. And so I'm just going to keep doing it this way. 

 08:41

And then I put my AirPod back in and got back to my workout, but my heart was pounding. I was sweaty for more reasons, you know, I was working out, but I was also just really startled. And I noticed my nervous system response. 

 08:56

I noticed the instant fawn response that I didn't address the interruption, right? Or the assumption that he could come over and correct me. And so as I kind of started to calm down, the first thing that I did was to affirm to myself, of course you did that. 

 09:18

Of course you fawned. This guy like totally startled you, right? He came up. You didn't see him until he was right there. I was so gentle with that fond response, where in the past, I would have been really frustrated with myself. 

 09:34

I would have victim shamed and blamed myself. But I was recognizing that that startle, fond response was so normal and that it wasn't my fault and that what had happened to me was absolutely normal. And then I told myself, listen, if we want to talk about how to address what you're frustrated with, right, his input, we can do that. 

 10:01

But I just, I lathered myself up in so much self-love and gentleness and really affirming for myself that it made sense that I had responded that way. And that is something that I have worked really hard to develop, to not go to frustration and self-condemnation. 

 10:21

And so that night, as I was thinking about it, I just took the time to decide, do I want to address this? Do I want to have a conversation with this guy about the fact that his input and feedback was not asked for and so it wasn't welcome? 

 10:37

And I used the process that I have taught about finding the words and practicing saying them so that I could also have practice, not just with getting the words out, but with the feeling that I was going to have. 

 10:54

Because normal nervous system responses when you're talking to a man who is twice your size is to be anxious, possibly a little afraid and scared. But I was willing to feel that because I had decided, number one, that I was going to do it in a way that felt safe to me in a public place in the gym. 

 11:16

That is a really important consideration. And I'm going to talk more about that in just a little bit. But I had decided that I wanted to address it, that I was safe addressing it, that I could find the words, and that I could manage the feeling okay. 

 11:31

And so all of that in place, I actually practiced a little script that I wrote out. And so I decided that the next time I saw him, whenever that was, I was going to have this follow-up conversation. The next morning, as the universe would have it, we were walking into the gym at the same time. 

 11:52

And so I went up beside him and I said, hey, I'd like to address our interaction yesterday. Unless your feedback is asked for, it is not welcome and it is not appropriate to approach me with correction or with advice that I haven't asked for. 

 12:09

And I had planned to leave the conversation there and just kind of, you know, go on my way. He started, of course, well, you, you know, and well, I just had to. And so I continued the conversation and said, and furthermore, one of the things that is clear to me is that you're not actually trying to solve a problem. 

 12:29

Because if you really thought that that machine being used in that way was really going to cause a problem, you would have talked with the people here at the rec center about posting a sign, or you would be up there telling everyone who uses the machine that way, you know, that there was a problem with it. 

 12:48

But I can tell you're not actually trying to solve a problem. You're just looking for someone to correct. And that someone is not going to be me. And then I decided to turn and walk away. And I, my heart was pounding. 

 13:02

My nervous system was up, right? Heart pounding, blood pumping, all of the things that happen in some difficult conversations. But I felt so good. I felt really good about what I said. And I felt really good about the way that I was able to stay with my body. 

 13:23

I went to the bathroom after that. I calmed myself down. I showered myself with a bunch more love and praise that I had handled it in a way that I was really proud of. And then I went back to working out. 

 13:37

Story number two, also at the gym. In order for this story to make sense, there is a man who is in charge of every local LDS Mormon congregation, and he is known as the bishop. He is a lay minister. What that means, he doesn't, you know, he could be an accountant Monday through Friday, and then on Sunday, he is the spiritual leader, right, of this congregation, which is known as a ward. 

 14:05

The bishop really oversees all aspects of ward life, right? He interviews the members to see whether or not they're keeping all the rules so that they can go to the temple or participate in, you know, the different aspects of religious life. 

 14:22

He is really in charge of every single aspect of religious community and participation and discipline. And so in a lot of ways, I grew up with the idea that the bishop is this literal representative of God in that congregation, somebody who can receive inspiration on behalf of the members. 

 14:46

And for men and women, his approval can directly affect whether or not I'm considered worthy, whether or not I serve in different positions and have different responsibilities. And for a woman who is raised in that system, especially a good girl like me, the bishop represents like divinely sanctioned authority whose approval really equates to God's approval. 

 15:18

So that is the context for this next story. And it also happened at the gym. So I went to the gym in the middle of the afternoon, which I never, ever do. I say that because I really believe that when you are ready to work on something, the universe gives you opportunities. 

 15:38

And just like I just happened to be walking in the gym at the same time as the big guy who interrupted me, I was at the gym at three o'clock in the afternoon because I had had some cancellations in my schedule. 

 15:51

And I saw my bishop, my old bishop from the time when Dan, my husband, was leaving the church. And this bishop and I have kind of a painful history. There were some things that he participated in, that he did directly to my family, to my children, that he did directly to people that I care about, including me, that interactions that I had with him that felt really problematic. 

 16:21

I used to call him the nicest asshole I knew because he had this way of being really nice-ish, like smile on his face. But a lot of the things that happened were really painful. And I have carried that. 

 16:38

I, from time to time, would see his wife in the morning when I usually go. And I would just have this like, ugh, feeling. I fantasized for a time about writing him this anonymous letter where I kind of laid out all of my grievances and all of the hurt in a way that, you know, was really an attempt to not carry it all myself, but I never did that. 

 17:04

And there he is at three o'clock in the afternoon. And I noticed him see me. And I thought, shit, I don't know if I want to talk to this guy. And right as he was coming over, I got a phone call, which gave me a minute to collect myself. 

 17:23

After the few minutes of speaking on the phone, I pretended to continue the conversation on the phone because I needed a minute. I needed a pause, right? I teach that the pause is one of the most important things we can give ourselves to calm our nervous systems, to kind of come back to ourselves and make a decision about what we want to do. 

 17:43

And I knew in that moment, I really had three options. I said to myself, hey, Sara, if you want, you can totally leave. You can just walk right out, not even talk to him, pretend like this never happened and go home. 

 17:58

Number two, your option is, if he comes over to you, you can have a fake, pleasant conversation. You can pretend like everything's fine. You can smile. You can nod your head and just kind of bluff your way, pretend your way, perform your way through the nice conversation, air quotes around nice. 

 18:18

Or number three, you could have an honest conversation and you could ask him if he has a moment for some honest conversation. And I thought about that and I gave myself enough time to decide, okay, if I were to choose that, how would I feel? 

 18:36

Well, I would probably feel nervous and maybe a little emotional. Could you handle that? Yeah, I think I could handle that. What if he got mad? How would you handle that? Well, I would just turn around and leave. 

 18:47

Okay. So I knew that I could handle each of those conversations. And I decided that if he came over to me, I would go for option number three. So when he came over and initiated a conversation, I said, hey, do you have a moment for some honest conversation? 

 19:09

And he said, yes. And I said, even if it feels a little bit prickly in the beginning. And he said, yes. And so we kind of walked off to the side and I told him I laid out each hurtful incident clearly. 

 19:27

I didn't pull any punches. And I noticed some emotion coming up, some sadness and some hurt that is still in my body from the time that those things happened. And I said to him, you'll notice some emotion, some hurt that I still feel, because those things happened at a time when my family needed graciousness and generosity and care and grace. 

 19:55

And I didn't feel like we found it with you in particular. And I've carried that for a long time. And then I also said, the other thing that I can also acknowledge is that I believe that you were doing the best that you knew how to do at the time, that there were probably some other things going on for you that I wasn't aware of. 

 20:20

And so I can hold both of those things, that you hurt my family deeply, and that you were probably doing the best you could. And then I stopped talking. And I saw him try to find some words and some emotion come up for him. 

 20:38

And he acknowledged that he wishes he would have treated our family with more compassion, that he was really struggling to do his job with the kind of compassion that now he wishes he had been able to do. 

 20:54

And I'm not going to go into the details of everything we talked about, but it was a lovely conversation that really cleared the air and kind of cleared that space between us. And I walked out of that gym feeling like I was flying. 

 21:15

When I really tried to ask myself, okay, what are you feeling that feels so amazing right now? It was freedom. It was freedom. And it was that type of like alignment and congruity and integrity with myself that I don't feel all the time, but I'm feeling more and more. 

 21:38

And I'm telling these stories because I know that we all struggle with having these kinds of conversations. And we want to be able to be honest without letting really big emotions overtake the conversation and kind of overpower us, that we have patterns of avoiding conversation because we are afraid of getting too angry or crying or breaking down. 

 22:06

And that it is a skill to hold those emotions and let them be present without being consumed by them. I'm not saying that you need to always control your emotions and conversations. I think some of the most powerful moments of conversation can be when we let those feelings really take center stage and we let people see our emotions. 

 22:32

But I also know that sometimes that doesn't serve the conversation or the outcome that we want. And so I'm sharing these conversations that I have had because it felt like freedom for me. I was no longer carrying his actions for him and the emotions of those feelings, right? 

 22:53

The resentment, the hurt, and that unspoken pain was gone because I had shared it with the other person who was in that situation with me. There was also freedom from the story that I had told myself that I was bad at having these kind of conversations or that my emotions would take over and that that was a good reason for not having them. 

 23:19

There was also freedom from the fear of my own emotions that they were somehow bad or that the presence of them would mean that I couldn't be honest in conversation. There was freedom from being silent, realizing that speaking up didn't destroy the possibility of connection that it actually created it. 

 23:42

Because even though I don't think this man and I are going to have, you know, a long friendship, I could now see him across the room and wave, say hi, acknowledge him, and totally mean it. There is a connection now that didn't exist before then. 

 24:00

And I'm no longer held hostage by the what if, what if I run into him, what if I see him, which I have had before with people. There's also the freedom from fearing physical sensations, right? That the clenching in my chest that used to happen around difficult conversations. 

 24:21

The freedom from performing, from having to perform niceness that so many of us are stuck in. And I think the deepest freedom is from the connection that I now have to myself, trusting, knowing that I can handle hard things. 

 24:42

I can handle hard conversations. So a couple of things I want you to remember. This doesn't mean you always have the hard conversation, right? There are actual safety concerns. It's also important to ask yourself, do I want to spend the time doing this? 

 25:00

Do I want to spend the emotional energy doing this? Is this a relationship that has the capacity for this kind of honesty? If the answer to those questions is no, then it's no. This is not a prescription. 

 25:16

I think you need to ask yourself, is this person capable of hearing me? And if they don't, am I okay with that? What am I hoping to get out of this conversation? I was hoping to say what I needed to say, and I felt pretty sure that I could handle whatever happened. 

 25:33

But this process is very personal. You get to decide when to speak and when to stay silent because both can actually be acts of self-respect and power. I share because so many of us want less anxiety, less resentment, deeper connection, more trust, more vulnerability, more intimacy, and the feeling of freedom. 

 26:01

And that is something that can be developed by practicing skills. If you are tired of carrying the weight of unsaid things, if you want to know what it feels like to walk out of a hard conversation feeling lighter and freer instead of heavier, if you're ready to stop abandoning yourself in the name of keeping the peace, there are some things you can do to start small. 

 26:25

You can notice what you are not saying and get curious about why. Always practice with lower stakes situations first. And then you can get some support. I would love to support you. I would love to teach you the skills, to show you how to manage your beautiful nervous system and to lather and slather yourself up and down with love and with care in a way that actually makes these conversations more accessible for you. 

 26:56

If this feels like something that you are ready for, you can go to my website, Sarafisk.coach, and schedule a call with me because I want everyone to feel this type of freedom. I want you to remember speaking up isn't about being brave all of the time. 

 27:13

It's about building a relationship with your own body, your own voice, your own words, and then sometimes slowly, sometimes scared, but truthfully, finding ways to speak up. And that feeling of walking out lighter and freer, more connected, more deeply honest to yourself is something that is available to everyone. 

 27:39

And I would love if you would let me know if this story resonated with you or if there's something I can do to help you start to build that freedom in your own life. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week. 

Episode 132 - How Over-Apologizing Hurts You and How to Stop

Because every one of us has been raised with the good girl rules—to be nice, agreeable, and never rock the boat—almost every woman I work with has the habit of over-apologizing. You’re capable, you’re accomplished, and you work hard, yet “sorry” slips out at the beginning of every sentence. In this episode, we explore how over-apologizing hurts you and how to practice a different way of showing up. Here’s what I cover:

• How over-apologizing lowers your authority in other people's eyes and trains your own brain to see yourself as less valuable

• Why it’s important to consider what you’re trying to accomplish with your apology

• Why pausing before you speak is the foundation for breaking your over-apologizing habit

• The power you’ll reclaim when you replace “I’m sorry” with “thank you”

• Why increasing your capacity for discomfort is key to stopping over-apologizing

• A practical homework assignment to complete your own apology audit



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Transcript

00:58

Because every single one of us have been raised with the good girl rules and we know exactly what is expected of us to be nice, to be kind, to never rock the boat, to not make people feel uncomfortable, to always be the one who defers or accommodates or acquiesces. 

 01:15

Every single woman that I work with has the habit of over-apologizing, and it's not your fault. What I want to talk about in this episode is how it hurts you and how to stop. Because by far and away, I think apologies feel like throwaways, right? 

 01:33

Oh, I'm sorry. My fault, my bad. They feel like they're not very important. But as I have worked now with hundreds of women and looked at this habit in myself and in the women that I coach, it actually is a real problem for a couple of reasons that I want to point out. 

 01:52

And I want to give you some help on how you might look at this habit in yourself and make some different decisions. I was working with a client last week. She had worked almost 60 hours to present some quarterly results in a big meeting with shareholders and with the C-suite of the company where she was working. 

 02:12

And inadvertently, she started her presentation with, sorry, I know everyone is busy. And she could feel in her body that she had positioned herself as an interruption rather than a valued contributor. 

 02:29

I have done this myself. You know, I want to talk to my husband about something that's important. And I have heard myself say like, hey, I hate to bring this up. I'm sorry. And all of a sudden I'm apologizing for having needs, having wanting to have a conversation about something that's important. 

 02:47

And so if you've caught yourself doing this, saying sorry before you speak or before you ask, before you exist, then I really hope that this episode is going to give you some ideas to think about and some ways to change how you show up. 

 03:01

Because here is what I know. You're capable. You're accomplished. You're working incredibly hard. You are trying to make relationships valuable and deep and vulnerable in home and with people that you care about. 

 03:15

And in your professional life, you are trying to show that you have excellent work. And the problem is that when we apologize, we unconsciously message that the way we are is not okay, that being good at what you do somehow requires you make yourself smaller to make other people comfortable with your excellence. 

 03:42

And I really want to take a hard look at that. What is really happening when you apologize is that you are putting yourself in what is called a one down position. Everyone else is above you. You have some powerlessness and some victim-in-ness, right, in that one down position because you're signaling, I was wrong or I'm less than even when you're not. 

 04:08

And this does two things simultaneously. Number one, it lowers your authority in other people's eyes. And it trains you, your own brain, to see yourself as needing an apology, less than credible, less valuable, less deserving of space. 

 04:27

For high achievers, this is particularly insidious because you're often apologizing for the very things that make you valuable. Your standards, your attention to detail, your thoroughness, your expectation of excellence, the internal standard that you hold yourself and people who work for you and with you too. 

 04:49

Think about it. When was the last time that you said maybe something like, I'm sorry for the long email, when that email contained crucial information, or sorry to be picky when you were actually ensuring quality, or sorry to push back on this when you were trying to point out something that would prevent a costly mistake at work. 

 05:11

You're apologizing for doing your job well. There are parallels to that in home relationships as well. When you say sorry for bringing something up that needs to be addressed that is weakening family ties, when you want to address behavior that is problematic in the home and you apologize, it makes it seem like what you want to say isn't really valuable and isn't really important for other people to listen to. 

 05:42

I have found that this is more of a reflex rather than choice for most women. There's no pause. There's no assessment. It's really just a knee-jerk habit that doesn't actually ask the question, was harm actually caused here? 

 05:57

Because that's what apologies are for, right? Apologies matter when they are about repairing harm. But when it's a knee-jerk reaction, we don't give ourselves the chance to even reflect on what is really needed in this moment. 

 06:13

Do I need to acknowledge some awkwardness? Do I need to bring attention to a different dynamic? And when I throw out an apology, when I haven't caused harm, what am I trying to accomplish with that? That's the first question I want you to think about. 

 06:32

When you apologize as a knee-jerk reaction, what are you really trying to accomplish? I have some insights on that, and I'm going to share those in a minute, but I want you to just think about that for a second, because most of the time, the answer is nothing was wrong. 

 06:48

There was no harm done and no apology was needed. And so if I'm apologizing in a knee-jerk way, what am I trying to do? Where did I learn that? Where was I taught or given the programming that I should be the one to put myself in this one-down position? 

 07:06

And for what purpose? There are some real reasons why over-apologizing is actually harmful. We've talked about a couple. First, it erodes your confidence and influence, right? When you're constantly apologizing, you look less secure and less competent, even when you are neither of those things. 

 07:26

Other people might start to unconsciously question your judgment before you offer it because you've already apologized for it, giving it the air of less than valuable, less than real. We talked about the fact of how it trains your own brain to see yourself that way. 

 07:45

There's another reason, though. It weakens an apology. When sorry is like verbal filler, it loses all of its power. When you actually need to take responsibility for something that matters, if apology is just kind of the way that you make everything okay, it doesn't have the weight that it should. 

 08:07

You've devalued the currency, let's say, of your apology by offering it so often and with so little thought. Another reason why apologizing is actually harmful is because it increases self-blame and anxiety. 

 08:25

You're conditioning yourself to assume responsibility for everything that goes wrong, even things outside of your control. Your nervous system starts to treat every interaction as something you need to fix, you need to manage, or you need to smooth over. 

 08:43

I remember clearly a man bumped into me with his shopping cart in the middle of an aisle, and I apologize, and I felt a little rush of guilt or shame. Was I in his way? Was I doing something wrong? I wasn't. 

 08:59

I was just getting my bag of chips, right? He hit me. But the self-blame and anxiety that we feel as chronic over-apologizers is a real thing that we carry with us in the world, and it keeps us small. 

 09:18

Apologizing becomes a way of shrinking into a more palatable version of yourself. That's what I was doing in the aisle with my shopping cart, like shrinking, like literally trying to get out of his way, instead of widening my capacity to hold a moment of silence or awkwardness where I don't say anything to make it better. 

 09:46

So many times, what I'm working on with clients is how to increase their capacity for discomfort. Offering knee-jerk apologizing instantly shrinks you from something that's taking up space to something that is shrinking to try to get out of other people's way. 

 10:06

It's really teaching people to question your authority and your right to take up space. Oftentimes in the workplace, it's like this subconscious tax you are paying for being good at what you do, especially if you're a woman. 

 10:26

You're apologizing to make yourself palatable and to make yourself okay for those around you. And there's one other thing that I don't think gets talked about very much. Over apologizing creates resentment, both in you and your relationships. 

 10:45

Because when you're constantly making yourself small and convenient for everyone, there is a part of you that's keeping score. For me, in my mind, it sounds like this. I am trying so hard not to be a burden here. 

 10:59

Why aren't you doing the same thing? I apologize for everything. Why don't you? I try to make myself palatable and easy to be around and likable. Why aren't you? And that resentment can build up in romantic and personal relationships, in work relationships, and just kind of the way we move about the world in general. 

 11:22

I remember on a very recent trip to Costco, I just had this like anger as I was trying, you know, maneuvering my cart, trying to get my stuff. And what I was thinking was that same thing. I am trying so hard to just be good and nice and get out of people's way. 

 11:40

Why aren't you? At all the people who were leaving their carts in the middle of the aisle to go get their sample. It just felt, I was so angry. And it was all from this way of thinking of, listen, I try to keep myself small and nice for everybody. 

 11:57

Why aren't you? And so if you feel some of that, this might be where it's coming from. That resentment builds. And it can be confusing because you're the one choosing to apologize. And yet I'm also, well, I guess I shouldn't say me, I'm the one choosing to apologize sometimes. 

 12:16

And I'm also angry that other people aren't matching my level of self-diminishment, making myself convenient for other people. It just becomes a losing game. Because here's what most people don't realize. 

 12:34

Over-apologizing doesn't make you easier to love. Over-apologizing does not make you easier to work with. And there's a chance it's actually making you harder to be close to, exhausting even. Because when you apologize for, let's say, asking your partner to do their share of household responsibilities, or you preface every request to a friend or to a coworker with, sorry to bother you, or apologizing before you give feedback to your team, 

 13:10

which is your job. You're making other people manage your emotions before they can respond to your actual need or engage with your actual points. Think about it. When you say, hey, I'm so sorry, that is going to elicit a response in the other person where they either have to dismiss your apology or manage it for you. 

 13:36

Oh, no, no, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. Yeah, tell me what, what do you need to talk about? And the very thing that we're doing to try and be quote unquote low maintenance creates high maintenance. 

 13:48

It creates this whole kind of thing that we have to work through before we can get to the actual issue. So if over-apologizing is harmful, why do we keep doing it? Here's where I want you to have a lot of compassion and understanding for yourself. 

 14:09

There is a nervous system component. For many people, pleasers, apologizing is a fawn response, F-A-W-N, Fawn. It's a survival strategy that we learned to keep safe. If I apologize first, maybe I won't be rejected. 

 14:30

Maybe I won't be criticized. Maybe I won't be abandoned. There is something inside of us that uses apologizing to be safe or to try and maintain connection. Somewhere along the line, we learned that if I don't have needs or if I can make myself small and palatable, then I will have a place. 

 14:50

There is a real nervous system component. Second, there's learned conditioning. Many of us, as I mentioned in the beginning, learned that the good girls, they're always agreeable. They never cause discomfort. 

 15:05

They don't take up too much space. And apologizing becomes the way we signal, I'm not too much. I'm not a threat. I'm safe to be around. I will make myself small so that the discomfort is either all centered on me and so that you don't have to deal with any discomfort. 

 15:24

That learned conditioning is real and it's not something that we chose. And so as you start to see it in yourself or become more aware of it, I want you to be really gentle and really tender with yourself. 

 15:38

Third, there might even be what I could call some strategic thinking or what we might think is strategic. High achievers, many of them have learned that apologizing makes their excellence more palatable. 

 15:54

They have learned you can be smart, you can be capable, and you can be successful as long as you make other people comfortable with it, as long as you make it easy for others to be around your competence. 

 16:07

And they do that by apologizing, by diminishing their contributions, their thinking. But I think here's something that needs to be understood. It's not actually strategic. It is self-sabotage that is dressed up as politeness. 

 16:25

Let me ask you something. How many times in your relationships at work, at home, everywhere else, have you brought up a legitimate concern and then ended up apologizing for bringing it up? It might sound like, sorry, I know you're tired and doing a lot, but I'd like to talk about how the household responsibilities are divided. 

 16:51

Or, I'm sorry to be so sensitive, but can we talk about what you said earlier? Or, listen, I'm really sorry that I, you know, I know we're all really busy, but I feel like we need to talk about the numbers that such and such department is producing. 

 17:08

You're apologizing for having standards, for having needs, for having feelings. And that really contributes to the one down position that most people pleasers feel like they are in all the time that they try to get out of by pleasing. 

 17:28

It also teaches everyone around you that your needs are an imposition, that your feelings are inconvenient, that you're the problem, that your standard of doing things is somehow bad or wrong. It is really common for the women I work with to want to address something in one of their relationships and to end up apologizing for it. 

 17:51

Okay, so how do we actually stop? I'm a big fan of the pause. You have heard it in other episodes. This is the foundation. Ideally, we pause before we apologize. Before the word leaves your mouth, ask yourself, did I actually do something wrong? 

 18:13

Is this situation calling for an apology? Like, is there something to repair here? Do I need something else like empathy or understanding? And third question, what would happen if I just said nothing? 

 18:32

The last one is crucial. Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is just allow silence. Just let that moment be what it is without rushing in to fix it with an apology. Now, if you've already apologized, I want you to do this work even after it's happened. 

 18:54

So let's go back to me in the grocery store. The man hits my back of my legs with his cart. And I say, oh, sorry. Now, it's already happened. The words already left my mouth. But I need to go back and take myself through these questions. 

 19:08

Number one, did I actually do something wrong? No. Number two, what is this situation actually calling for? You know what? It was just a human interaction. And number three, what would happen if I just said nothing? 

 19:25

That's where a little bit of discomfort comes up. Because if I can imagine it without the apology, he hits my legs with the back of his cart. I notice him. And then I just say nothing. That is where your capacity for discomfort increases. 

 19:43

Because when you choose to not rush in and make it better, if I were to have chosen to not rush in and make that situation better for him, we would both just get to stand there in some silence and get to decide what we do without me trying to smooth it over. 

 20:05

So sometimes the most powerful thing we can do is just allow some silence, to just let it be what it is, awkward, whatever, without trying to smooth it over. Step number two, I want you to think about some alternatives. 

 20:21

Instead of saying, sorry, I'm late, try, thank you so much for waiting. Instead of, hey, I'm sorry to bother you, try, do you have a moment? Instead of saying, you know, I'm sorry for the long email or for having so much to say, try. 

 20:42

I really value being thorough or I want to be thorough here. Instead of saying, you know what, I'm sorry, I have a question. Try. I have a follow-up question. And I want you to notice how these alternatives shift the energy from you being in the wrong to you just acknowledging someone else's patience, someone else's time. 

 21:08

Because I do believe that it is a good idea in relationships that we care about to acknowledge when people wait for us, when people are spending time on us, right? There's nothing wrong with that. But our discomfort with that, the way we have been programmed to be uncomfortable is what leads to the apology. 

 21:27

And so I want you to just notice the energy shift away from there's something wrong with me, I shouldn't be saying this, I'm a bother, to just the acknowledgement of what the situation really is, whether it's somebody else's patience with you, the time they're spending with you, or the fact that you're both working to create something here together. 

 21:51

So if you want to make it really simple, I want you to just try replacing every sorry with thank you. And I want you to watch what happens. So, hey, thanks for your patience. Thanks for the feedback. 

 22:05

Thank you for making time for this. It's a small change, but it's going to have a big impact. One of the places where it has massive impact is building your tolerance for discomfort. Most of my clients, heck, I'm going to say all of them, me included, we need to increase our capacity to hold discomfort. 

 22:29

That's what this is really about. We please to diminish our own discomfort or our perception of other people's discomfort. And we need to increase our capacity to let other people feel their feelings and for us to not run from our own feelings. 

 22:49

When we stop apologizing, when we stop asking for permission, when we stop overexplaining, we increase our discomfort tolerance. And that is a hugely rewarding skill. When we can allow silence, when we can allow disagreement, when we can say things like, I know this might be hard for you to hear, instead of, I'm so sorry. 

 23:16

When we can say, I totally understand that you feel that way, instead of, I'm so sorry. When we can say, you know what, your thinking on that makes a lot of sense to me, even though we have a difference of opinion. 

 23:32

Instead of, I'm so sorry, right? Those phrases allow us to hold our ground without apologizing for it. And they acknowledge the other person without diminishing ourselves, without putting ourselves in that one down position. 

 23:49

They create space for discomfort without making you responsible for eliminating it or making it better. I'm going to say that again. They create space for discomfort without making you responsible for eliminating it or making it better. 

 24:09

Because that's the tension that people pleasers live with, right? If there's discomfort, it's my job to fix it. If somebody's mad, I've got to do something about that. Here's the truth. When you stop reflexively apologizing, there will be some discomfort. 

 24:29

You're going to feel it. Others might feel it. And that's okay. Discomfort, especially when it's acknowledged, that makes it okay. It makes it normal. And discomfort isn't damage. That's one of the things that we need to think and hold in our hearts. 

 24:52

Other people being uncomfortable doesn't mean that there is damage to relationships. Discomfort is normal. Discomfort is a normal part of human interactions. And our job isn't to make everyone comfortable all the time. 

 25:08

Our job is to show up with integrity, to communicate clearly, and to take responsibility when we have actually caused harm. So a couple of things. I gave you some phrases to try out, right? I also want to give you a little bit of homework. 

 25:28

For the next 48 hours, just keep a note in your phone or somewhere. And every time you say sorry, I want you to write it down along with what you were apologizing for. And at the end of 48 hours, I want you to categorize them. 

 25:45

How many were for actual mistakes that you made? Okay, those that might be where you, you know, an apology is necessary or even needed. Number two, how many times did you apologize just for having needs or opinions? 

 26:03

How many times were you apologizing for other people's mistakes or inconveniences? And how many of the apologies were just verbal filler? Most women, myself included, are really surprised to discover, I'm going to guess, 80 to 90% of the apologies fall into those last three categories. 

 26:26

Apologizing for having needs and opinions, apologizing to make everybody comfortable with mistakes or inconveniences that aren't even yours to own, or just verbal filler. Once you see your pattern, you can start interrupting it. 

 26:41

Once you see how you can increase your capacity by just letting the silence be what it is, it gives it a purpose. And oftentimes it's so valuable that we're more willing to do it. So save the apologies for when they really matter, for when you've truly caused harm, when you've hurt someone, made a genuine mistake, or done something else. 

 27:06

That's when I'm sorry has weight and integrity. And when you reserve your apologies for real situations that need repair, your apologies become powerful again. That's when they mean something and people take them seriously. 

 27:23

Last, I know what you're thinking. If I stop apologizing, are people going to think I'm mean, I'm arrogant, or I'm difficult? Here's the truth. The people who matter, the ones who respect competence and directness, will actually find you more credible and not less. 

 27:44

They will trust you more because you're not undermining your own authority and requiring them to address your apologies by saying, no, no, no, it's okay. The people who want you to be small and apologetic, yeah, they're not going to like it that you don't apologize anymore. 

 28:03

They're not your people. And they're trying to continue your habit of shrinking yourself to keep them comfortable. And you're going to have to decide what to do about those people because they're not your people. 

 28:18

They want you small and they want you palatable. There is a massive difference between being collaborative, being open, and being apologetic. You can still be warm and kind and considerate without constantly positioning yourself as wrong or less than. 

 28:40

In fact, here's what I have found. When you stop over apologizing, you actually become easier to work with and to be close to because people can take you at your word. They can respond to the actual content of your requests, of your insight, and they can trust that when you do apologize, it actually means something. 

 29:07

Look, this is really important work. These throwaway apologies, they're really problematic. And I'm not advocating for you to completely erase the word sorry from your vocabulary. That's not the goal. 

 29:21

The goal is to use it with intention, to save it for moments when it matters, when repair is needed. I want you to stop using it as a shield, a filler, or a way to make yourself smaller. You don't need to do that. 

 29:37

Your excellence, the way that you perform and show up for people, there's no need to apologize for that. Save your sorries for when they really matter. I just want you to notice how many times you say sorry. 

 29:51

Notice the ones that are necessary and the ones that are just habitual. Notice how it feels in your body right before or after you apologize. That anxiousness, that worry that you're taking up too much space, that resentment of like, why aren't other people also apologizing the way I constantly am? 

 30:09

That's what we want to get rid of. Practice the pause. Practice the alternative phrases. Practice allowing the discomfort, the awkward silence. Because learning to stop reflexive apologizing is one of the most powerful ways that people pleasers reclaim their power, their confidence, and their presence. 

 30:32

And you deserve to take up space without apologizing for it. That's it. I would love to hear what you discover as you do your apology audit. What are you apologizing for? Send me a DM. I love feedback. 

 30:46

Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.

Episode 131 - End Emotional Outsourcing with Béa Albina

When you stop outsourcing your safety, belonging, and worth, you discover the freedom of authenticity–of knowing who you are and what you want. In this episode, I speak with Béa Albina about her new book, End Emotional Outsourcing: How to Overcome Your Codependent, Perfectionist, and People-Pleasing Habits. You’ll hear how this book not only outlines a clear path to end this painful way of living, but reframes emotional outsourcing in powerful new ways. Here’s what we cover:

• The definition of emotional outsourcing and how it shows up in our relationships, careers, and decision-making

• Why emotional outsourcing is a brilliant survival strategy, not a personality flaw

• The truth about authenticity and why it’s often the cost of people-pleasing and perfectionism

• How emotional outsourcing lives in the nervous system and why healing has to include the body

• Béa’s five-part process for rebuilding self-trust through small, “kitten-sized” steps

Beatriz (Béa) Victoria Albina, NP, MPH, SEP (she/her) is a UCSF-trained Family Nurse Practitioner, Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, Master Certified Somatic Life Coach, author of the forthcoming "End Emotional Outsourcing: a Guide to Overcoming Codependent, Perfectionist and People Pleasing Habits" ( Sept 30, Hachette Balance) and Breathwork Meditation Guide with a passion for helping humans socialized as women to reconnect with their bodies, regulate their nervous systems and rewire their minds, so they can break free from codependency, perfectionism and people pleasing and reclaim their joy.

Find Béa here:

https://beatrizalbina.com/book/

https://www.instagram.com/beatrizvictoriaalbinanp/

https://www.facebook.com/beatrizvictoriaalbinanp

https://beatrizalbina.com/podcast/

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

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https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57

Okay, this interview has been waiting to happen for a long time because I have been so privileged to walk part of this book journey with you. I know I wasn't there for all of the long hours of writing and sweating and crying. I was there for some of it though. And so it is such a privilege for me to interview about your book, baby. It's just so good and emotional outsourcing, how to overcome your codependent perfectionist and people pleasing habits. And it's such an important work because it outlines not just a clear path to end this really painful way of living, but it reframes it in such important ways. And the first way that I think it's so essential that we reframe this is that you talk about emotional outsourcing as a really brilliant survival strategy and not something that is wrong with people who are socialized as women. So I want to speak to that really directly. First, give me a definition of what emotional outsourcing is.

Beatriz Albina 02:06

Yeah, with great joy. So emotional outsourcing is when we chronically and habitually source our sense of the three most vital human needs, safety, belonging, and worth from everyone and everything outside of ourselves instead of from within at a great cost to ourselves. And we enact emotional outsourcing through the survival skills or habits of codependent, perfectionist, and people pleasing thinking.

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:38

Okay, let's get some really concrete examples.

Beatriz Albina 02:40

Yeah, absolutely. So let's start with like in relationships, we can really, really easily take on that role of the fixer. So we feel responsible for other people's emotions. We can't relax if someone's upset, if someone maybe doesn't like the movie, oh God, you don't like dinner, let me fix it. Let me fix it, let me fix it. We apologize constantly, even when we didn't do anything wrong and we're not even Canadian just to keep the peace because keeping the peace is the most important thing. We avoid conflict to that end at all costs, even if it means downplaying our needs, stuffing down our feelings, fibbing. We feel resentful, but we either don't express it and we just shove it down and just, you know, my feelings don't count as much as anyone else's, who am I to be upset? Or we let the resentment build and build and build and because we don't have any skills to like release the pressure valve, we all of the sudden explode on the people we love, like at them, or we scream and pound the steering wheel alone in the car. We take on a therapist role in all of our relationships with our partner, our parents, our friends, our kids, our employees. We are always listening, always supportive, always problem solving, but we don't get that same support in return, either because we are so over-functioning that we attract under-functioners into our lives, people who don't have the skills, capacity or desire to support us, or maybe they wanna help us, but what's our constant refrain? I'm fine. Oh, I'm fine. Yeah, don't worry, I'm fine, I'm fine. Oh, speaking of fixers, we are the only ones who see the true potential in that date, that partner, that person, you know, they don't want to be everything we want them to be, but give me a little time. I'll get them working out, eating better, communicating better, showing up. We take on humans as fixer-upper projects. We give and give and give and give until we are completely exhausted, and we believe that we have to take care of someone else in order for our lives to have value, and we also believe, you know, we have a deep, we often have a lot of really anxious attachment, and so if we're not taking care of someone, they're gonna leave, right? At work, we say yes to extra projects, unpaid labor and emotional caretaking. We're like the mom of the office, you know what I mean? We do not advocate for ourselves, for raises, fair treatment, credit for our work. I know you talk a lot about people-pleasing at work that's us to a T. Decision-making is really challenging because we don't value ourselves, we don't think that we're worthwhile, and so instead of just listening to our bodies and making an intuitive yes or no, we have to consult the entire peanut gallery and ask 473 people their opinion before we make a choice because we don't trust ourselves, and when we do say no,

Beatriz Albina 05:47

we're paralyzed by guilt. We're paralyzed by guilt even when we said no to something we absolutely have no desire to do.We are either under-responders or over-responders, so something bad happens and we're like, okay, we don't let ourselves have our feelings or something minor happens and we take everything so personally and make everything such a big deal, we are explosive at the smallest provocation, constantly and chronically offended by the whole world. I could go on for hours.

Sara Bybee Fisk 06:23

That is the most comprehensive list I have ever heard. You're right. We could go on and on because the ways that this shows up is as varied as the experience of people who are socialized as women. I think it's really interesting to come back to the core of what you said. It's this constant needing outside validation that you're safe, that you belong, and that you're worthy. We get it in all of these thousands and thousands of different ways. I'm particularly interested in how reframing it, not as a personality flaw, but as a brilliant strategic adaptation, how that helps people overcome it. First of all, tell me why it's not a personality flaw.

Beatriz Albina 07:16

because it's a strategy. It's not actually who you are at your core. It's a strategy that makes perfect sense when you understand the family systems, cultural norms, and the social structures and thus systems of oppression that we grew up in. So for so many of us, those systems, family, culture, society, religion, were and are shaped by the patriarchy, white settler colonialism, late stage capitalism. It's the air we breathe, the rules we were expected to follow, the invisible scripts that got handed to us that we were told over and over exactly how to be and who we needed to be in order to survive, to belong, to get love, or if we couldn't get those things, at least to be safe. So if you were raised and socialized as a girl in a patriarchal culture, you were rewarded for being a good girl. Agreeable, accommodating, polite. You were told to smile, to say yes. I can't help but go into that voice though, to make other, put other people's needs ahead of your own to keep everything copacetic and that your body isn't really yours. How good you are lives in how others perceive you, not in your own sense of integrity. Your integrity doesn't matter. So of course you learned to scan the room, to read the mood, to anticipate and preempt any possible conflict. And of course you made other people's feelings your job because of course you did. How else would you stay safe?

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:57

I think one of the things that is endlessly fascinating, you and I could go into a hundred different rooms with a thousand different women each and we could ask them what are the good girl rules? And every single one of them would know. And it was not ever something that was handed out with my third grade multiplication facts, right? But we all know. And I think what is so brilliant about reframing it as a survival strategy is we can actually appreciate and love those past versions of us that learned how to please because it got us where we are today. And we can want something different for ourselves now without having to shame or judge or criticize those past versions that really learn to please to get along and to get ahead and to survive.

Beatriz Albina 09:48

Because if you want to get into the C-suite, this is how, right? So it's not just folly, but it does hang your humanity out to dry. So that's the question, at what cost, right? And what's the payoff and what's leaving your truth behind?

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:13

Well, in that, when you define emotional outsourcing and you said, you know, we, we look for these things outside of us at great cost to us, I don't think we know what the cost is for a while, right? We're so busy getting into the C-suite or getting into the position of being rewarded and recognized, like for me, it wasn't a C-suite, it was being recognized as the best Mormon, the most religious, the most devout, right? And although the behavior looks the same, I'm acquiescing, I'm accommodating, I'm not making waves, I'm being agreeable, I'm doing what other people want. There is a moment, I think, increasingly as I aged that I began to become aware of that cost. And so let's talk about when you say at great cost to ourselves, what is the cost? The costs are all.

Beatriz Albina 11:10

The cost is, okay, so authenticity isn't just being yourself, it's knowing who you are in the depth of yourself. So it's the ability to stay rooted in your own wants, needs, preferences and values, even in the face of someone else's disappointment, someone's negation, someone else saying, no, that's not what a good girl wants, right? Even when your nervous system is quietly or loudly, quite frankly, begging you to abandon yourself to stay liked. Authenticity is staying rooted and honest with yourself and others, instead of being performative to avoid conflict or discomfort. And that's what we lose, right? We lose that ability to stay true to ourselves, to stay in our integrity, in our dignity, in our values. And instead, we go with, we go with the flow, even when that means laughing at someone's racist joke, or right, because you don't want to upset anybody, right? Well, certainly not. Certainly not. Right? It's just going along to get along, which when you add up those moments of what is conditioned self betrayal, at the end of the day, who do you have? Right? People who are attracted to and want a false you who want this, this facade, you who are you to you when you've spent your whole life putting you at the end of it all, right?

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:48

So it costs our genuine self connection and knowledge, who I am, what I want, what I really want to do with my time and energy and effort, you know, that kind of the life, my life source.

Beatriz Albina 13:03

And your sense of self-worth, right? Your own value is contingent on everyone else, right? So then the telling the truth of who you are can feel like a threat.

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:15

Right. And so if I can't show up as I really am and hang on to me, because I'm constantly kind of getting into the nervous system. At you know, the nervous system activation that tells me to just be what other people want me to be. It also has to have an effect on my ability to be in close connected relationships with other people. It's not just my relationship with me, right?

Beatriz Albina 13:43

Because you're never if you're not in the room, who are they relating to? Right? Right? Who are they? Who are they talking to? Who are they feeling with? We think that we're like protecting others when we're not vulnerable. Because then we're not burdening them. We're not complicating their life. We have the same feeling the same belief system when we try to save people from their emotions. Right? Like someone says, yeah, I'm really upset. Oh, they're there, it'll be all right. Right? And so we're not allowing others to have their vulnerable, truthful experience of life when we're not allowing ourselves to either.

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:21

And so then you're not connecting who you really are to who someone else really is. And I think that that creates the feeling of loneliness that a lot of us have in relationships where we are with other people and we are doing things for other people, but we don't feel really known or seen by them.

Beatriz Albina 14:42

Right. And what I want to pause here, because you and I are always talking about our no-blame, no-shame way of expressing this. The thing that's really keeping us from showing up and being vulnerable and sort of taking the mask off, as it were, is our nervous system and the window of capacity or tolerance in our nervous system to step outside the lines, right? To step outside what's prescribed for us and to possibly break a social norm or taboo, right? And by being our authentic self. And so I want to say it's the stories we grow up in, but it's also held in the body, right? If it's too scary to you as a mammal, then you're not going to do it, right?

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:29

I really love to spend some time kind of building out this idea because I think this is key. You say that emotional outsourcing lives in the nervous system, not just the mind, right? Because in our logical mind, I think we're adults and we understand, like you have, you know, we've talked about ruminating is not helpful. We should have a sense of who we are, self-esteem, and we should have some confidence and be able to go out into the world and, you know, advocate for ourselves, say what we want. Like we know that that is logical. We see other women doing it, but there just seems to be something in the way of that. Can you speak to how it lives in the nervous system?

Beatriz Albina 16:11

Yeah, so it keeps our bodies in this hypervigilance, so like really revved up. It keeps us believing everything in the world is a potential existential threat. That if we aren't living in this absolute perfection, everything's going to fall apart. And so it can be like a constant micro tension in your muscles, right, this like readiness to spring into action. We can find ourselves holding our breath bracing for emotional, physical, energetic hit our own heart rate. And our vagal tone can be attuning to others. Hyper attune instead of tuning inward. And our stress chemistry can be a hot mess. So like elevated cortisol spikes and things like adrenaline when you even think about disappointing someone else. Okay, that's those are cool nerd words. What does that mean? It means that your entire mind, body and spirit is attuned fully outward towards other people, instead of tuned inward. So that you can say things like, no, I don't actually want to be the room mom this year. Thanks for the offer. No, you know, I actually don't want to go out to dinner with them. They're really negative. And it's just kind of exhausting for me. Thanks for the invite, though. Right on and on those no thank yous, those statements, those preferences, those desires that are opposite to our training, get buried, get subsumed are unfindable in a body and a nervous system that is hyper attuned to others. Right? Because you start to say no, are people going to be stay smiling? Probably not. Right. And when your body equates, someone's not smiling and doom, you're going to do everything you can to keep the smiles around, right?

Sara Bybee Fisk 18:14

You are because it's just too uncomfortable to not do that.

Beatriz Albina 18:20

And we grow up discomfort equals doom. Discomfort equals doom. Somebody's sad, right? My dad is sad. Well, I gotta be the jester. I gotta go make jokes, right? Mom is upset. She's storming around the kitchen again. Let me go show her my A plus. Let me tell her I made JV. Let me go and manage other people's feelings that are too uncomfortable because the line often for us between discomfort and danger, very blurry, right? And so someone being uncomfortable is an existential threat. So we don't allow it. Why would we allow it? We're not fools, Sara, right? We're just not fools.

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:03

So if someone is recognizing themselves in what you are talking about, right, that they have a very low nervous system capacity to say no, to choose what they want for themselves, to disappoint someone else, even when it's what serves them the best, where do they need to start working on that?

Beatriz Albina 19:29

Mmm, so they need to be brave. B, body first. R, recognize the outsourcing. A, ask what do I want? V, voice a small act of self-loyalty. And E, encourage yourself. Shall I go through my five-part process?

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:44

I would love you to go through your five part process. I will love you forever.

Beatriz Albina 19:49

Okay, so we start body first. Oh, and can I also put this out there? This is really important. This is not you alone in a silo work. No one is born codependent. I eschew the labels. They're bologna pants. These are survival skills. You were not born codependent. You were not born a people pleasing perfectionist. Forget about it. We learned these survival skills to survive in relationship. We heal in relationship. Right? So the fact Sara that I have you and let's give Judith Gatton some big love, right? The three of us can call each other for like really deep talk. But also like, remember last week when I sent you a video that I was like, Hi, I'm a fully grown Leo. And does this shirt look cute on me? Right? Like, we need each other. We need to lean on each other and let our nervous systems take comfort with each other. This is it is white Western wellness baloney to tell you that this is individual work. We heal in community beginning, middle and end. Because science. Right? Love it. I love it. Right. I just wanted to say that really clearly. This is why people we need coaches, we need communities, we need sisterhoods and sibling hoods. Great. So let's go back to being brave. We start with the body. So we've been talking about how when we are living in emotional outsourcing, we are not embodied. We are not present in our bodies. Being embodies is lived experience of inhabiting your body, not just being aware that like, I have a body, it takes me to work, it drives a car, it makes dinner. But it's really about perceiving feeling and acting from within your body as your primary home. So not just living from the neck up, where your socialization and conditioning live, but living in your body. And so embodiment is the integration of sensory, motor, emotional and cognitive processes into a cohesive, felt sense of self. Yeah? Yeah. Great. So the first step is of being brave is that work, right is coming into your body, which for folks who have a history of their body being the site of trauma, that can be challenging. And so we go slowly, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny steps towards becoming ever more present in our bodies. One of the simplest, easiest nervous system skills and tools that I can teach you is orienting. Everyone can do it. And you can do it in a crowded boardroom, you can do it while driving your car, you can do it one-on-one. And it's just this, you simply look around and let your mind body, visual cortex nervous system take in your environment. And I know that sounds way too simple to actually do anything. But think about like, you show up at a new job, and they're like, all right, here's the office. Good luck. It's disorienting. It's confusing. It's, you struggled to know how to do anything because you're not oriented. Whereas you show up at the office, they say here's Pam's desk, here's Jim's desk, the annex is back there. And they show you around the office, your nervous system can rest, right?

Beatriz Albina 23:13

Because you're oriented in time and space. And so one of the best ways to start coming into embodiment, and thus towards more authenticity, so you can step out of emotional outsourcing, is by finding our bodies in time and space. I like to do that by combining looking around and feeling my feet. So I always say find your feet, find the ground, connect with the earth. It's August, which is the month that in South America, we celebrate Pachamama or earth mother. So let's find the earth, right? Connect in with the ground, let your feet connect you with source, however you experience that. And let your body begin to be your GPS. Because your body tells you the truth about what's right, what's wrong, and what's meh, right? Even when your mind is doing mental gymnastics to people, please, so come into your body. Next, if you're in the midst of emotional outsourcing, the next thing we need to do is attune ourselves to our own habitual ways of outsourcing. So notice yourself in the act gently. What I like to do is have my clients sit down, orient their nervous system, find their feet, and then write out the ways they know they habitually outsource. Like, what's your classic go-to? Mine was to think my needs don't matter. Right? Like, that was a classic for me. For someone else, it might be watching people's face as you say something to see if it's okay. Right? Is it okay? I asked for time off. Like, I'm sort of like monitoring you. You might know that you have the habit of outsourcing a decision because you don't want to disappoint others. Oh, I used to do this one, Sara, where I like was worried about an outcome. And so I would kind of, in a way, manipulate almost someone else to make the decision for me because then if it didn't turn out well, I could blame them. I had no idea I was doing it till I did. Right? So make a list, come to understand your own habitual outsourcing, and then make it a fun game. Like, where's Waldo? You know, where's Waldo? Yes. Right? Like, Oh, I did the thing. Now, this goes towards my general philosophy, which I know you share, which is, let's make this light. Let's make this fun. This is some of the most important work of your entire human existence. But it doesn't need to be so serious. You know what I mean? Yes. Right? Like the job where we laugh, I've ever had where we laughed the most was when I was a hospice nurse. Everyone's circling the grave. Let's laugh about it. Right? Like, let's joke about it. Like my best friend has stage one of my best friends, one of my best friends, but another best friend has stage four terminal cancer. And all the time, she'll be like, Oh, no, I hold on, I need to move my phone. It's too close to my body. It's going to keep it light.

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:10

Yeah, there is such an air of seriousness about all the things we have to change about it.

Beatriz Albina 26:15

Take a breath. Yeah. So then, yes, shall I continue?

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:22

Yes, we've covered B.

Beatriz Albina 26:23

R, recognize that as A, ask, what do I want? So not what they want, not what would keep you out of trouble, not what they will approve of, but do you actually want, need, feel, or prefer right now? Even if it's foggy, even if the answer is I don't know, this is where we start. So what we're doing here is shifting our neuroplasticity, we're shifting the neural grooves in our brain that habitually, heuristically go to, I don't know, and that's a problem. We start by shifting towards, I don't know, and what matters is that I asked myself. So that's the new thought we're programming. So constantly asking yourself, when someone's like, do you want to go out to dinner? And you ask yourself, do I? And if your brain goes, I don't know, you go, oh, awesome, but I asked myself. Even if the thing coming out of your mind is, I don't know, help, you asked. And that's our goal. The goal is to self-ask and to really to start to pump yourself up in your mind, right? Because we don't matter to ourselves. So that's what matters, not the answer. Next is to voice small acts of self-loyalty. And here we don't just keep it small. We keep it kitten step sized. So do you know my funny thing I say, Sara, of kitten steps?

Sara Bybee Fisk 27:48

Do you know this? It's a good one. So go ahead and tell.

Beatriz Albina 27:50

Okay, great. So, I think that folks in the self-help world telling folks to take baby steps is malpractice. I think it's ridiculous. A baby's foot is like what, two and a half, three inches? That's bananas. That is just wild and ridiculous. That is too big a step. You're going to fall over right on your sweet little snout. No, thank you. So, I implore my clients and you listening to take newborn kitten-sized steps. Like newborn, like this kitten's like hours old, little teeny tiny steps. Because when we take small steps, we're so much more likely to succeed.Right? And it really reduces the resistance within the nervous system to taking the first step. So, think of the situations that we listed above where you are most likely to outsource and write out what the tiniest thing you could do to reverse that. So, if your habit is to say yes to every project from people pleasing, maybe your kitten step is, let me get back to you. Right? So, instead of that automatic, yeah, maybe you're going to say yes in an hour, but it's irrelevant. Right? What we're programming into your brain is the pause and choosing self. Right? Maybe you never order what you want in case someone at the table wants to share. Right? So, maybe, maybe you order without asking others what they want. Right? It doesn't really matter. The work here is we, you are starting to become your own safe place. So, taking these small acts of self-loyalty, begin to shift it. And then finally encourage yourself like you would a best friend, like Sara and I encourage ourselves. Right? Celebrate each and every kitten step in your own mind if not out loud. Even better though if it's with a friend. Right? Because we heal outsourcing in community. So, I caught it. Yay. I paused. I asked myself something new. Right? This work is slow because it's deep and it's tiny steps because it's changing our entire lifetime of coding in our minds, in our bodies, in our spirits. So, that's how we be brave, Sara.

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:08

What does life start to look like as you are being brave and walking yourself with your community, with your sisterhood and the relationships that you're building, what does life start to look like on the other side of emotional outsourcing?

Beatriz Albina 30:29

You know what, the first place my brain went, and this is like the most Leo on Leo conversation. This is the example I love to use. I know my hair looks good anytime, any day, but I love, I love to receive praise now, to receive validation, to be told my hair looks good because I don't count on it as life's blood. I don't need it, but it's just icing, right? Okay, so here's one of my favorite metaphors, chapter 10, be the cake. When you are no longer emotionally outsourcing, you trust that you are the most delicious, incredible chocolate cake or carrot cake or whatever you want. And you let life be the icing, meaning it's something great to have, to have praise for someone to love up on you, right? To have that additional validation from the world, but you don't need it because you've got your own back. And so it means doing the things you want to, the things you dream of, not with no regard for anyone else, but with regard for yourself at the top and others right behind it, right? So it's me first, you second, us together with love. It's us together, right? It's always thinking about your values as the center of your life. It's living with integrity, it's living with dignity. And when someone says, hey, I don't like that shirt on you, you can say, okay, but like, that's it. Okay. Right? Because they get to have their opinion. It's not your problem. It's not your gospel. It's not yours to fix. It's not yours to even necessarily absorb, right? Oh, I don't like that you're what do. Okay. And you can allow others to have their own experience of life. You don't need to manage it. You don't need to fix it. If someone's upset or uncomfortable or unhappy, you can let them have those feelings and you can meet them with love. Oh, I hear you. You're really upset that I'm not going to change my entire life to meet your preferences.

Sara Bybee Fisk 32:42

It also has to just free people up to find places where nobody gives a fuck which shirt they're wearing, right? Well, there's also that, yes. They get to show up and be loved and seen and appreciated and fully known, which I think is, that's the best part of being a human, right, is when you get to be loved and seen and truly known.

Beatriz Albina 33:09

Yeah. And the noise in your head gets quieter. That constant like ticker tape of like, did I say the right thing? Should I text them? Did I upset them? It starts to lose volume. Your anterior cingulate cortex, the brain region that's been like an overdrive scanning for interpersonal threat stops firing quite so hot, right? And you get more fluidity in your nervous system. And so you can like notice social tension without your heart rate spiking, without your gut, like nodding up, you can just notice, oh, it looks like they're not loving the party we planned. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I also noticed, let me just talk to some things in my own life, I don't fear being wrong when it's appropriate. Okay, because this is what people push back, but like someone could get hurt. If I'm prescribing insulin, I'm going to check it 27 times. When I put an IUD in, I am appropriately nervous. I should be. I don't care how many I put in. I intend to keep that edge of nervousness. When I tell someone my feelings, how they receive it's on them, and that's great information about them. It's not about me anymore, right? And to your point, I now trust my intuition and my body and my discernment that I pick people to tell about my feelings who are going to meet me the way you do, right? Who are going to meet me with love and care.Who are going to either say like, oh, sweet pea, I hear you that you're upset, or going to do what you do, which is you say, I hear you that you're upset. Would you like some coaching on that? Right? So I believe in my consent. I think it's vital and important, and I believe the people I trust with my heart should ask for it. And so I've called those people in. I remember when I called our friend Cara and I told her I was getting divorced. She was the first person who responded. So how do you feel about that? And I remember my shoulders just going, I feel so happy, joyful and relieved. Like this painful multi-year saga has finally come to an end, then like, I'm going to reclaim my life. I'm already doing it. And she was like, oh, okay, cool, then can I take you out to celebrate? She was the first person who didn't say, oh, honey, I'm so sorry, right? And so you call those people in and you let people know this is how I live. My opinion around my life is what matters. And when I want yours, I will ask for it. And I do. I ask your opinion all the time, but not because I distrust mine, but because I value yours. And that's the shift. That's the move towards interdependence. Your opinion matters. Give me. But if at the end of the day, then I'm going to go with me. And I'm never going to blame you for giving me your opinion because I don't play that game anymore.

Sara Bybee Fisk 36:01

There's such a relief in being able to live with that kind of having your own back and that kind of the spaciousness that other people get to have their response that doesn't mean anything about me. It's good information for me to have. And I think a lot of people listening might think, gosh, that sounds amazing, but they are still feeling exhausted. They're still feeling stuck. Like they have tried things before that have not worked to get them that kind of self-connection and connection with the other people in their lives that they really want. So what would you want those people to know who want what you have been describing, but don't know what to do next? Values work.

Beatriz Albina 36:48

What do you actually value? This comes to mind because Friday I was coaching a group of women and there was so much talk about their exhaustion, and I had everyone stop and write out what are the things that are exhausting you, keeping this house spotless, keeping the car clean, keeping my kids clothes organized, keeping my whatever. Why are we attempting to continue to live up to these exigent standards? Right, back in the day, we had villages for this. And so now in this capitalist hellscape, we each have our own house and our own lawnmower and our own laundry and our own cooking and our own cleaning that is generally on one side of shoulders and that's moms, and you have to do all of the everything. And so the challenge I gave my people was to spend the weekend not cleaning and taking pictures of their dust bunnies as they grow, and we're having a dust bunny challenge. Not because I want us to be gross, but because we are working ourselves to the bone to keep up with the Joneses. Right, so that like what if a neighbor happens to drop by, they'll see that your countertops clean and that's the most important thing about you?Like what really matters to you? Is it spending time with your kids or is it keeping their whites white? Like who cares if their sneakers are dirty? Right, versus like y'all played board games last night and had so much fun laughing. Like were the snacks impeccable? Nobody cares. I think that's when I get all former hospice nursing on it, right? At the end of the day, what matters to you? When you're on your deathbed and someone like me is giving you morphine, what do you want to think about? What do you want to have allowed to matter to you? And I think a lot of our exhaustion, it comes from these ridiculous external standards. And the sooner we can release them and step into our own values, everything shifts. Like do you need to take on more work so you can buy more designer goods that are going to end up in the landfill as soon as that micro trend is over? Do you need to raise kids who are so consumeristically focused that they need the like boo boo boos, whatever. I'm not breaking copyright by saying it wrong. And like do you need to be feeding into that? Or do you need to simplify your life because your values are friendship, community, being of service, honesty. Like what really matters to you? And when you focus on that, I think a lot of the exhaustion falls away because you're not people-proving. We talk a lot about people pleasing, but where are you people proving? Are you Romy and Michelle trying to look amazing at your high school reunion? Like what are you doing? It really comes down to like what are you building a life on?

Sara Bybee Fisk 39:55

I think that's one of the gifts of midlife, actually, for many women, right? You just, you've been doing it for so long, you realize it just doesn't have the currency that you thought it did. It hasn't been the return on the investment. And so I think a lot of that just comes naturally as you age, but if you're listening to this podcast and you don't want to wait for midlife to kind of point these things out for you, what you need to do is buy Bea's book and emotional outsourcing so that you can get a jump on how to arrange your life so that your time and energy and effort is actually going toward creating the connection, the safety, and the self worth that is going to see you through the decades of living as a human and not constantly be requiring you to go get more from other people because you control it, right? It's a source of value, safety, and connection that comes from inside of you that you control and is not controlled by other people outside of you.

Beatriz Albina 41:05

Exactly. Bring it on home, baby. Bring it on home. And then find the people you can be weird around.

Sara Bybee Fisk 41:10

That's right. Yeah. Creating the- Be weirder.

Beatriz Albina 41:15

Be weirder. Come on. Just no one's out here actually that normal. I know you've got it in you.

Sara Bybee Fisk 41:22

We all do. We all do. So thank you so much for writing this book, for being a voice for the authentic, confident, really free lives that I think women want. We're never taught how to get. And that if we want to kind of go globally, which I know you and I think very similarly along these lines, the world right now needs women who are connected to themselves and to their communities who are shaping different discussions because it's kind of a shit show out there right now. And I think when we have women who can advocate for what they want and what they need, what we see is women who advocate for peace, community for everybody getting fed, for everybody being safe and having as much of their needs met as possible, which we could use that right now. We sure can. We sure can. Thank you for adding to the resources that are available to achieve that. Is there anything that you didn't get to say about your book, about the process of writing it, really about anything that you just want to end with if you back up here?

Beatriz Albina 42:38

So, I want to name the importance of somatics and the nervous system, which like we had so much to talk about, we didn't get to there. If you are like so many people, you're looking at Instagram and you're seeing somatics thrown around, whether it's like somatic accounting, somatic workout, somatic whatever, and you just don't get it. I describe it in the book, I break it down in the book, I make it accessible and tangible and applicable to your own life, so don't stress about it. It's in the book, so yeah, but it's really important that we talk about the role of the body in all of this, so yeah, so there it is.

Sara Bybee Fisk 43:19

For more from Bea, where can they find you? I know buying the book is essential. Where else can they learn more about you and what you do?

Beatriz Albina 43:28

Yeah, you can pre-order at béathrizealbina.com slash book, and that's got all the popular booksellers are on there for pre-order. Quick note, because people don't realize this, if you want this book to be a free resource at libraries, it's vital if you've got the financial capacity to pre-order that you pre-order. So the more pre-orders there are, the more copies get published, which means it's more likely to end up in libraries. Isn't that wild? It's bananas to me. I didn't know that a month ago. You can listen to my podcast, Feminist Wellness, wherever you get your shows, and you can follow me on the Gram. I give good Gram at my whole name, béathrice, Victoria, Albina, and P.

Sara Bybee Fisk 44:10

All of those links will be in the show notes because I want everyone to be able to benefit from this. Thank you.

Beatriz Albina 44:16

I love you. Thank you.

Sara Bybee Fisk

I love you too. Talk to you soon.

Episode 130 - Being Seen in the Relationships that Matter Most

Do you edit parts of yourself out of relationships because you're afraid of how people will react? Do you self-silence when you know what you have to say might not be pleasing to others? There is real discomfort in showing up authentically because it means risking rejection from the people we’re closest to. But the alternative comes with its own pain: the sadness and loneliness of not being seen for who we truly are. Neither type of discomfort is easy to face, but in this episode, I share how you can choose between them and take small, brave steps toward relationships where you can be fully seen. Here’s what I cover:

• The two types of discomfort that people pleasing creates in relationships

• Why it’s easy to choose authenticity in some relationships but not others—and why that difficulty is completely normal

• A personal story about a friendship where I felt the pull between hiding and being seen

• Why loving the parts of yourself that used to hide is essential for change

• Questions to help you identify where you can choose authenticity in your relationships

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What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

00:59

A lot of the episodes that I put out are pretty straightforward. How to do something or how I'm thinking about something that seems, I don't know, pretty straightforward to me. 

 01:07

Today's episode, less so. It's an ongoing, pretty tender, personal thing that I want to share because the most painful stories I hear from women who I work with in private and group coaching is the story of how not being seen in a relationship is particularly painful. 

 01:32

And how once you start kind of undoing this work, you realize it's a two-way street, right? It's not just the other person not seeing you. It's the fear that you have about being seen and the ways that that has caused you to hide and edit and perform. 

 01:50

And it plays out in all of our relationships, work, personal, parent, child, sibling, daughter, all over the place. And I think sometimes it's really easy when you have realized that you have been editing yourself and silencing yourself. 

 02:11

In some relationships, it's pretty easy to just kind of stand up and do it, either because you know that it will be okay or because you are not really, you are more invested in your own being seen and saying what you want to say than you are in the overall like longevity of that relationship. 

 02:32

What that means is some relationships, we kind of don't care if they continue on the way they have or if they, you know, continue to be what they have been for us because we're ready to be different and we don't care if the relationship changes. 

 02:45

But that's often not the case. We often have relationships when we want it to be able to continue and we want to be able to see if we can be more vulnerable and more intimate and more connected. And that's where the conflict can feel really, really tender and really tricky, like it's feeling for me right now in a particular friendship where I have realized the extent to which over the course of what was a over like a 15 year friendship, 

 03:20

the many ways in which I stayed quiet because I was scared that I would be rejected. And I'm going to give you a little bit of the backstory so that you understand because it's tied up not just with friendship for me, but with my former religious beliefs and Mormonism and leaving those behind, leaving the church. 

 03:43

And so I just hope that what resonates for you today is the difficulty that is very normal to work through when you are working through essentially the two kinds of discomfort that people pleasing causes in our relationship. 

 04:02

Because that's the big thing that this episode is going to be about. You can have two different kinds of discomfort in a relationship. Number one, you can be uncomfortable, sad, and feel lonely and feel unsupported because you aren't seen. 

 04:21

There is a real sadness to the discomfort of not speaking up, of not feeling like you are really known or that you are really listened to, that you are really seen. Sadness and loneliness. It's kind of the way that a lot of women I work with describe it is like, I'm in the room with a lot of people, but I still feel lonely. 

 04:43

Or I'm surrounded by people and I still don't feel like I'm really connected to them. That's one kind of discomfort. The other kind of discomfort is the discomfort of being seen, of saying the words that you want to say, addressing conflict in an honest, productive way, which means stepping into the fear of possible rejection, the worry that you will be misunderstood or misinterpreted, two types of discomfort. 

 05:15

And so as I give you a little bit of the context, oh, did I mention politics? Yeah, we're just going to throw that in for good measure too, because this is about what began as probably more motivated by political differences than anything else has turned into, for me, over the last month, as I've been working through this, just a really beautiful self-exploration where I can see the ways in which I contributed to the loneliness and feeling unseen that I felt because I wasn't speaking up about some important things that were happening for me. 

 05:56

And I can also see how just the time that we are living in and the way the polarization that we are experiencing in our country over politics plays into that. But the reason that I think it's different with this friend is I want to hang on to a relationship with her. 

 06:13

And she is a good, loving, kind, amazing person. And it's just different, right? When you're not just going to cut someone off, it's different. So let's get into it. A little bit of backstory I think is important. 

 06:30

Up until 2016, I had probably voted a straight Republican ticket, probably without even considering voting a different way. I would say that I grew up politically and religiously very conservative, except for I grew up in Central California, which is run by farmers who do hard work and migrant workers, immigrants who come to this country to work for them. 

 07:02

And the summers that I worked in fruit packing sheds and the ways that the migrant population was just part of my world at school and at church contributed to a sense that was actually taught in my religious upbringing that immigrants and people who are visitors and people who come into a place where they are vulnerable are to be taken care of, are to be welcomed, are to be treated with respect, that God is no respecter of persons. 

 07:37

And that was really something that got in there deep with me. And so I grew up with the idea that you really can't be a Democrat and be a good member of the Mormon church. That's not explicitly taught, but it is very well understood. 

 07:57

And so up until that point as well, I was also homeschooling my kids. And I mean, I was a conservative Christian mom, even though a lot of Christians wouldn't say that Mormons are Christians. That's how I felt. 

 08:11

And so when I was homeschooling, I met and became friends with a really wonderful group of women who were also homeschooling their kids. We did a lot of this together. And it was really important to me to have a community. 

 08:29

And I really wanted to be friends with these women. I thought they were smart and amazing. And I was really happy to be included in this community. And I can see now that one of my modes of operation or in kind of ensuring that friends didn't leave me was by becoming indispensable. 

 08:53

And so I put a lot of energy and work into our activities. And I think that this is true, you know, I wasn't the only one doing it. I don't want to make it sound that way. But it was always fueled a little bit for me by wanting to belong, needing to belong so that I felt okay, so that my kids had a community, and the worry that I would be rejected at some point. 

 09:19

That kind of undercurrent I now see really clearly. And it fueled a lot of the way that I behave, obviously. And so up until about 2016, totally conservative Christian mom. When my husband left the church, this group had some different reactions. 

 09:40

They noticed in religious groups like Mormonism, being on the inside means you look and behave a certain way and being on the outside means you don't. And so when Dan was leaving the church, I got a lot of questions and I was suspect. 

 09:56

And I was so suspect that one of the moms actually pulled me aside to interview me about where my faith stood so that she could feel comfortable letting me into her home and participating in teaching her kids. 

 10:11

And that was one of the most traumatic and jarring experiences of my life. I felt like I was literally fighting for my life in that moment. I had a huge nervous system reaction and went into fawn overdrive then and for the next, you know, several, the next time period. 

 10:32

I don't remember exactly how long it was that we, it was definitely more than a year though. So I went into a big, like years long fawn response, trying to convince them that I was still okay, right? 

 10:47

That even though Dan was leaving and he had his issues with the church, that I was still good. Because at that point, my sense of being good was very wrapped up in my sense of being a good Mormon, my sense of being a good member of my church. 

 11:01

And so if you can think about those moments when you had an interaction where it felt like you were fighting for your life, it might not have been, obviously, it's not going to be the same as mine, but that's so interesting to look back on and just ask yourself, what was I in danger of losing? 

 11:18

Or what did I think was at stake to have such a big reaction? Because I remember clearly exactly where we were, exactly where we were sitting, exactly how I felt and what she said. And it very clearly sent the message that I was suspect. 

 11:31

And so although I'm going to talk about the friendship of just one person, not this particular mom, all of that is kind of bound up in there. And I think when we want to look at our own fawn response, oftentimes we're going to see that it's connected to a lot of different things that show up in different relationships. 

 11:56

And what I mean by that is, you know, let's say that it was Sally who interviewed me and Jenny, who I'm going to talk about today. In fact, I'll just call her Jenny. Sally's interaction showed up in my friendship with Jenny. 

 12:07

And I think that that is really common and makes so much sense. So all of that was happening. 2016 rolls around and I could not support Donald Trump. And somehow a local news station got a hold of my name because I was Mormon, I am Latina, and I was not going to vote for Trump. 

 12:32

And they thought that was interesting and wanted to do an interview. And somehow that interview got pushed up to a national, I think it was NBC, Friday night, you know, news platform where it was released. 

 12:48

And my interview was short, but it was my reasons why I didn't feel like as a Mormon, I could vote for someone who was so willing to be derogatory about immigrants and about people who were vulnerable. 

 13:04

And that really just kind of touches a part of my personality as well. I'm an Enneagram aide, if that makes any sense to you. And that just means that I have a lot of like a super, super tender spot and a lot of loyalty toward people who I perceive to be vulnerable. 

 13:20

And that was reinforced by the church gospel that I heard growing up. That's what Jesus did. And so to me, it just felt absolutely like duh that we were not going to vote for a man who was so obviously against, you know, that part of the gospel. 

 13:39

And so I give the interview and within a couple of days, I get several messages from members of my congregation about how my vote is against the gospel, about how what I'm focusing on is the wrong thing, quote unquote, to be focused on, about how I am essentially unrighteous for the sentiments that I have. 

 14:09

And I can't say I was surprised, right? I was not surprised, but I also just thought, wow, I've never had this before, this kind of schism in belief here. And I realized it was just joining a lot of other, you know, schisms because I had a child come out as gay and I began to just collect all of this information about how it was so uncomfortable for me to be at church. 

 14:36

I didn't share any of this with this group or with any of these friends, even Jenny. And I think you need to know some things about Jenny. I get instantly emotional when I think about how much I love her and what an incredible person she is. 

 14:55

There was a point in time when I was going through some really difficult health challenges and Jenny came with me to doctor's appointments. She left her kids at home and came with me because I was finding all of the information to be so overwhelming that she would come and take notes for me and then walk me through the notes after the appointment to make sure I was getting all of the information that I needed, 

 15:22

the medications and all that. And so that's the kind of person that Jenny is. And she and I, in particular, had a really loving, connected relationship insofar as we could at the time, even with all of my hiding. 

 15:37

And we had so many just beautiful moments of supporting each other in her kitchen, in my kitchen. I loved her kids like they were mine and she loves my kids like they're hers. And we had so, so many amazing interactions together. 

 15:51

And so you need to know that because I think it's part of one of the things that I see happening is in terms of polarization is everybody gets lumped together and then we lose our curiosity about individual people and what they might be feeling and what might be hurting them, which then fuels their actions. 

 16:14

I stopped homeschooling in 2018 and it was such a relief. I didn't really appreciate, even until looking back at everything over the last couple months, how relieved I felt that my kids didn't want to homeschool anymore. 

 16:32

I left it up to them. They all went back to school. And it was because I didn't have to hide anymore. I didn't have to pretend. I was having so many issues with the church by then and so much discomfort. 

 16:45

I was very much in my long process of leaving. And I knew that if I was honest about that, I would be rejected. So then 2020 rolls around. And in 2019, 2020, that's when I left. And I felt the same kind of relief leaving the church that I did. 

 17:05

So that's the backdrop for the first part of this. And because we were friends, I actually emailed this group and I let them know that I was leaving the church. I wanted them to hear it from me. And Jenny was the only one who came to my house, not really to ask me questions about it. 

 17:28

She wasn't curious necessarily about why, and I had spelled a lot of that out in the letter, but she just wanted me to know that she still loved me, that she still wanted to be friends. And that was really meaningful to me, because to this day, no one from my congregation has visited me or even reached out to me, actually, to ask me why I left, to be curious about it. 

 17:52

I understand why. There's the feeling that it's like a disease that they could catch too. And because I was in it, I can understand it and I can have some empathy for it. But it really meant a lot that Jenny came over. 

 18:05

And so every August, I would get an invitation to a group birthday lunch. And it was something we had done while I was participating in the group and homeschooling. And they continued to invite me after I left. 

 18:22

And it wasn't possible, you know, for the COVID years. But then after I went to one lunch, and while it was nice to catch up, I just found myself thinking, what am I doing here? Why am I trying to put time and energy and effort into maintaining these friendships when we're just like on two really diverging paths? 

 18:46

And so I left just kind of unsettled and thinking like, I don't, I don't know that I really want to put this effort in. And then the election rolled around. And I saw on so many of their pages and just pages of former Mormon friends, the support for Trump again. 

 19:05

And I just, I knew what was driving that because I had been that. And I also, it just became so clear to me how differently we thought about the world and people in the world. And so it just became another big source of information for me. 

 19:26

And as I'm trying to have this conversation from a place of like holding multiple things as true at once or multiple experiences as possible, you're going to notice it doesn't sound very straightforward. 

 19:40

I don't have a neat and tidy ending for you. But I think that's because we're in a moment in our country, you know, the United States, or sometimes throughout the world, where we're becoming increasingly polarized and it's harder to have, you know, the type of happy endings that we might want. 

 20:00

So stick with me. I think there's some valuable things to learn here. So in the months after the election, I, like many, many people, just experienced heartbreak after heartbreak after heartbreak as the vulnerable groups that I am connected to and associated with, immigrants, queer communities, just experienced the onslaught of hate and reduction in their rights and dignity to exist as people. 

 20:35

And I had a dream that I don't have dreams very often. So this is why this kind of stands out to me. I had a dream that I was standing in a, it was all in black and white. I can kind of see it now. There's this massive crowd of just black and white faces and I'm in the crowd. 

 20:52

And then on a raised platform in kind of the center of the crowd, you can see a bunch of politicians and they're in, you know, suits and ties and they're looking out at the crowd and pointing to different things. 

 21:08

And then I look around and I can see that everyone in the crowd is holding up a sign. And on the sign, we have all written the things that we are afraid of. And the politicians are pointing to the signs and saying, oh, we can do something with that. 

 21:23

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Write that one down. We could definitely take advantage of that. And the difference in what the politicians were trying to do, use our fear to amass power. And the feeling of being in the crowd, of like being so afraid of all these things really stayed with me. 

 21:46

I know that there are bad actors. I know that there are people who are just propelled by nothing but amassing power and they don't care about people. I don't believe that that's what the majority of people are like. 

 22:00

And that was clear to me in that dream. And so all of that is kind of on my mind, the heartbreak, the kind of gut punches day after day of what it looks like to see, you know, my rights as a woman, my family's rights, my loved ones' rights, my immigrant community's rights be stripped away. 

 22:19

And August comes around. And I get a text from Jenny wanting to get together and celebrate my birthday. And my assumption was that it would be like we had done before in the group. And so my initial text back to her was that I didn't want to spend time and energy building friendships with a group that was so divergent from the way that I believed. 

 22:47

And Jenny actually misunderstood me and she thought I didn't want to be friends with her anymore. But it actually gave me a pretty amazing opportunity to look just at my friendship with her and say, do I still want to be friends? 

 23:01

And if so, why? I think one of the most compelling things we can do as humans is stop and look at our reasons for why we are taking action and just check in and just see if it's something that we still feel good about. 

 23:17

A lot of being a human is having automated processes and just doing things on repeat or habitually. And that can be really good. And I think it also can suck up a lot of time and energy unless we stop and take a look. 

 23:30

And so she responded outlining why she voted for Trump and her reasons. And it was mostly around abortion rights, which is a big deal in conservative Christian communities. And I get it. I could totally understand it because I had been that. 

 23:52

And unborn babies is a vulnerable group, right? And also, I think my view had expanded to care about those babies after they're born and what happens to them. And how are we supporting moms? And how are we making sure that people have basic needs met? 

 24:10

And so I just, I could see both sides. So what it gave me the opportunity to do was to communicate with her, not about the differences in the reasons for why we voted for who we voted, but about my hiding and about the fact that for years and years, I had edited and performed what I thought she and the other women in that group wanted me to see. 

 24:45

And I had really just managed the discomfort of keeping them comfortable, right? It was the slow burn of disconnection and resentment and fear that I had lived with throughout that whole time. And what I wanted to explore with her was the discomfort of being seen, of sharing more of who I am and risking the rejection on her part, but knowing that the discomfort of authenticity was what I had to step into. 

 25:28

I could no longer be in a friendship where I was hiding. I could no longer participate in conversations around things that mattered so much to me where I stayed silent. And I had to know if that was something that she was open to. 

 25:47

And so I wrote her a letter. I sent the letter out in my email to the people who subscribe to that. If you want to see it, DM me, I'll send it to you. Because I really wrote it from a place of two things. 

 26:00

Number one, love for her and an understanding of why she voted the way she voted with a clear delineation for now who I am and the things that matter to me and how I was no longer willing to participate in friendships where all of me could not show up. 

 26:24

Because if there's one thing I have learned over the course of the last couple of years, it's that conflict is either going to show you to a place in your relationship that is more vulnerable and more connected and more intimate and more loving and more understanding, or it's going to show you that that's not possible. 

 26:43

And that is really important information to have because then you get to decide where your energy goes. And so I had to choose the discomfort of authenticity. So I want to ask you something. Where in your life are you managing discomfort by making yourself smaller? 

 27:06

What parts of you are you editing out of relationships because you're afraid of how people will react? What sentences are you not saying? How are you self-silencing when there's something that you know might not be received as pleasing to other people? 

 27:26

So those are the opportunities that you have, I think, to just take a closer look and figure you out first. Why am I reacting this way? Why am I showing up this way? What do I think I'm going to lose? 

 27:40

And then giving those parts of you so much love. We tend to go to criticism and we tend to kind of lionize or valorize this like growth that is always like us becoming our best self. I like to start with first loving the parts of me that behaved in ways that I no longer want to so that I can change it from love. 

 28:09

And so I see the way that I did those things in this particular friendship and in this group. And I can have so much tenderness. It makes so much sense that I behave that way. And I have so much compassion for the me who was so scared of rejection that I was jumping through all kinds of hoops, whether they knew it or not, because that's on me, right? 

 28:34

That's my side of this relationship. And so as I wrote and shared the letter, I owned my part. I told her about the ways in which I had made myself smaller and why that I was so afraid of losing her and losing, you know, the community for myself and for my kids. 

 28:53

And also made clear, again, that clear delineation that I could not continue to exist in friendships where I wasn't seen and where all of me could not be welcome and validated. And I'm talking specifically about the friendships that I want to keep long term. 

 29:12

Side note, all of you is not going to be seen and appreciated in all your relationships. That's just not how it works, right? And it's not always a good idea, right? At work, you might have a different level of privacy than you do in your friendships. 

 29:25

That is very appropriate. And I'm not, again, this is not a generalization. This is about relationships that matter to you, that you want to keep, where you are trying to figure out, can I show myself more of you? 

 29:38

Can I show up with all of me? And how will you receive me? Brene Brown, I heard her say this on a podcast I listened to. She said, a brave life is having 15 difficult conversations a day. And that is what I am trying to do. 

 29:56

It makes me a little sick to think about 15 a day. But I do know that this conversation matters for me in this moment for a couple of really important reasons. Number one, I want to choose the discomfort of showing up for myself, of not abandoning myself and being seen in the relationships that matter the most to me. 

 30:21

I also want to have the nuance that people are complex and that different things cause us fear and sorrow. And that while we can disagree about those things, I want to continue to see people. And Jenny is just so easy to see because she's such an amazing person. 

 30:44

It really gave me a beautiful example in just in her. I also want to trust that being honest about who I am and what I value is infinitely better for all relationships whenever I feel like that's appropriate than continuing to make myself smaller to avoid conflict. 

 31:06

Again, I'm not saying that everybody should do this, that everybody should have these conversations because you're going to have to decide, number one, what your reasons are, if you feel like it's safe to do so. 

 31:17

It's a very personal decision. And I feel like your only job is to get to know you better if you are finding yourself in relationships where there are tricky conversations to be had. And I hope that if you are currently experiencing the pain and loneliness of making yourself smaller, you just hold on to this. 

 31:38

There is a way to show up, taking small, doable steps that don't feel as risky or high stakes to build up this skill. It is what I have been doing. I could not have had this conversation probably even a year ago. 

 31:54

I don't know, but that seems right to me. It's been a lot of having little hard conversations to get to this one. What I'm saying is this. If you are constantly editing yourself to keep your relationships comfortable, you're not actually in a relationship. 

 32:12

You're in a performance. Do we need performances sometimes? Yes, we do. You just get to decide when and where those happen. And so if you are ready for authentic relationships, they require space for both people's whole selves to show up, including the parts that are hard to understand or the parts that we disagree on. 

 32:39

So I want to leave you with this. You get to choose between those two types of discomfort. You can manage conflict by hiding parts of yourself and feel that slow burn of disconnection. Or you can build skills and confidence to risk rejection by showing up fully and to deal with what is of such an acute fear of potential loss. 

 33:01

I know that. I feel it even as we are working through this. Neither is easy. But one leads to relationships where you can be fully known and loved and where you can find more relationships like that because now you know what to do and how to set them up from the beginning. 

 33:20

And the other doesn't. So some final questions. Where might you be managing discomfort by making yourself smaller? What might it look like to share that discomfort instead of just managing it all internally? 

 33:38

And which relationships in your life might have some space for that? These are the brave conversations that need to be had. And I would love to support you. This is what I do one-on-one and in groups. 

 33:51

If that feels meaningful to you, please reach out. Thank you for being here and for listening. I really appreciate it.