Episode 126 - The Body Knows: Faith, The Wisdom of Desire, and Telling the Truth with Michaelann Gardner
In this conversation, I’m joined by the author of Sovereign, hypnotist, and fellow ex-Mormon, Michaelann Gardner. Sovereign explores chronic pain, marriage, and faith in a way that connects to the experiences and stories of so many women—even those who don’t share the same religious background. It’s about sex, disordered eating, and divorce, but it’s also about finding your desire and allowing it to guide you into a promised land that may look different from what you imagined. Here’s what we cover:
How the story of Adam and Eve became a framework to explore ideas about faith, bodies, and reconciliation
How the wisdom of desire can act as a powerful guide if we trust it to lead us
The reawakening of hunger and desire as a catalyst for telling the truth to ourselves and others
How cultural conditioning impacts the way both men and women show up in marriage and sex
The disconnect between the church’s view of sex as “sacred” and the lived experience of sex
How the pain of disconnection and dishonesty manifests in the bodies
Find Michaelann here:
https://michaelanngardner.com/
https://www.instagram.com/michaelann.gardner
https://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Michaelann-Gardner/dp/1961471175
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https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations
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Transcript
Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57
A couple of things you need to know, it is the day after my birthday, I am now 52, which for some reason feels significant, 51 and 50. I mean, I know I was supposed to feel something, but didn't. And it is a birthday gift to me that I get to interview Michaelann Gardner about her book, which I am not kidding when I tell you is one of the best things I've read, not just this year, but in many years. And it's one of only two nonfiction or fantasy books I've read since the beginning of the year because I did not want anything to do with reality. So I am so pleased that you are here today. And this is actually our second interview, because the first time you graciously gifted me a few chapters of your book. And I was so intrigued. I just wanted to read the whole thing. So I am thankful that not only would you give me your time once now, but twice. And I am just so pleased to talk to you.
Michaelann Gardner 01:58
Yeah. I mean, thank you, Sara. And happy birthday.I meant to mention that when I saw you. Yeah. I mean, it's really not, it's no way a burden. I mean, I wrote this book with the intention of connecting, you know, to women and people who have been wrestling through bodies and sex and God in similar ways. And I never get tired of just like talking to people, especially someone as gracious as yourself. And I think it's shared similar experiences. Like, these are the conversations worth having. And I love that I get to like, prompt them like on the topics that I want to talk about my having written a book.
Sara Bybee Fisk 02:35
Yeah, yeah, it's so good. So before we jump into the book, what do you want people listening to know about you?
Michaelann Gardner 02:41
Yeah. So my name is Michaelann Gardner. I live in Utah, Provo, Utah. I've been here like 16 years. So you might know it was like the home of Brigham Young University. I grew up Mormon. I'm now Episcopalian Buddhist something. I'm a hypnotist. I have a practicing clientele. And I wrote a book called Sovereign, where I try to unpack a long time of chronic pain and my marriage and my faith. Yeah, those are the key facts.
Sara Bybee Fisk 03:11
Yeah. There are layers and layers of story and experience in your book and metaphor. And so I wonder why, as kind of just to set up the backdrop, why did you choose metaphor as a way to structure this, this personal narrative, rather than just like a more memoir type, this happened, then this happened, then this happened, because there's some jumping around in the timeline.
Michaelann Gardner 03:45
It was a struggle to make that make sense to someone who's not me. I had a really good editor.
Sara Bybee Fisk 03:51
Yeah. Well, it made total sense to me. So good job.It was Kathy West, your editor. Okay. I love Kathy. I have only a couple of, you know what? Very briefly, if she listens to this, she just made such an impression that I do remember her all these years later. But yeah, she was fantastic.
Michaelann Gardner 04:08
So I love this question actually, because it is actually really at the heart of what I was trying to do very ambitiously for a first book. And I actually had an editor before Kathy who was like, just tell it straight. Like, what is with all this timeline nonsense? And, you know, it was before I think it was before I got cleaner. But I actually researched this really hard of like, how do I tell a not straightforward story? Because I don't think trauma is straightforward, right? Trauma comes and then it goes and then you find yourself back in the place you thought you had healed from. And then you think you've healed and you go back. I mean, it's this sort of spirally experience. And so much of what I felt and what I experienced as someone trying to figure out my sexuality, figure out my relationship to a higher being, it happened at a level that I don't always have the explicit words for.And so to use metaphor, I mean, that's sort of also where the trauma brain lives, right is an image is in sensation. And it doesn't always make sense to an outsider, like, why this trauma where this trauma. And so to be able to, to be able to bring metaphor and to bring something that's like, it's about feeling, you know, I really just wanted to see if I could communicate that, you know, and it almost almost sideways rather than just being like, here's the facts of what happened to me as if it were like a court case. Because also, I will say that a lot of what, what caused my experiences was my the story I was telling myself the lens that I had, right? Like, that you take the same person and the same exact experience. I mean, I even had a friend who read the book. And there's different actions that I take in the book. And he's like, well, why did you do that? I would have just simply not done that. Like, thank you for that advice. Like, you're like, thanks, Steve. Thanks.
Sara Bybee Fisk 06:11
Appreciate it.
Michaelann Gardner 06:12
And so I think metaphor kind of maybe gets a little bit more at like there's there's a lens I'm using here that is more than just the actual facts of it, you know
Sara Bybee Fisk 06:22
Okay, I love that answer. So why don't you introduce us to the metaphor, like the main metaphor used throughout the book and why you chose that.
Michaelann Gardner 06:32
Yeah, yeah. So the book is broken up into four sections. Garden, desert, ocean, promised land. Those actually changed a fair amount as I wrote, like they were called different things at different times and they got shuffled around. But what I'm going after is tapping into Adam and Eve, a story that even if you're not religious, we've all like heard the bare bones of it, right? There's those people in the garden and they do something they're not supposed to, they eat this thing and then God says, I hate you and they have to leave. It's a very Christian story. It's also a very Mormon story. We have like temples that we go to where we actually just repeat the story, like sometimes weekly, like it's like very like ritualistic, the Adam and Eve story. But it's a story I think fundamentally about bodies, you know, because they eat something, right? And it's the eating that separates them from each other and from God and from bliss. It's also, I think, a story about reconciliation. I don't know if everybody sees it that way, but I mean, to me, that's kind of actually the end of the story. Ideally is that you leave the presence of holiness, you go out and you suffer. And then through that suffering, you find a way to come home again, you know, whether that's to heaven, if that's your belief or whatever it might be. It has the advantage of also mimicking the hero cycle. So just from like a craft standpoint, right? I could kind of bring some of that stuff in. But yeah, I felt I feel a deep, like, I mean, we all feel some kind of way about, right? Like, well, I don't know if I love that story, or like, this is like the origin. I mean, everyone has a feeling about it. And I don't know why it taps into something really primal, but I think it does.
Sara Bybee Fisk 08:30
It also occurred to me, and I'd love to hear what you think about this, that Eden is supposed to be perfect. Eden is supposed to be this place where everything is provided, there's no work, there's no stress. Like you say in the book, Eve can just reach up and pluck the fruit off of any…
Michaelann Gardner 08:49
Childish, right? Yes.
Sara Bybee Fisk 08:50
Yeah. And it's in a lot of Christian theologies, if Eve hadn't fucked it up, right, we would all still be living in this paradise where ease was the, you know, the default, the default, instead of the pain of the world. And so, in so many ways, like religious life is supposed to be perfect married life.
Michaelann Gardner 09:18
Don't step out of this wall, right? Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 09:21
Yeah, yeah, married life is supposed to be perfect. There's all these like images of perfection that look that way from the outside. But once you're in them, you see the imperfection, you see the crack, you see the work, you see the stress. And I think for my, my own experience was once I got on the inside of marriage, and my own marriage was so deeply, deeply difficult. I was like, what's going on? I was completely disoriented. I actually thought getting married would be the end of my struggles because I had a lot of, I was obsessed with sex. I thought about it all the time. I thought there was something very deeply wrong with me because I thought about it so often. I had so many questions. I was so curious about so many different things. I was certain that it was the one thing that was probably going to keep me out of heaven and that by finally getting married, then I could have sex and all the curiosity and all of the, the, you know, wonder would be gone. And I would finally be able to like kill off paradise. Yes, I would finally be able to arrive in a paradise where I could kill off this part of me that was so bad. And then there was all of this stress. And so I really began to wonder like, am I the only one having this experience? Is this only happening to me? And the shattering of that paradise was painful.
Michaelann Gardner 10:54
I want to add there, sometimes people tell the story of Eve as if there's like this external snake that like makes you do something she doesn't want to do. I think that's like a bad psychological reading of the character. Like she wants, like she, like you can't be tempted. Unless part of you kind of actually wants that thing that you're being tempted towards, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. So the destruction is already there. It's already in you. You've already, the crack is there just because your desire exists. So then what, then what happens, right?
Sara Bybee Fisk 11:27
That's such a good point. And I just want to point out, though I am also no longer a member of the Mormon faith, I think, you know, we'll both always be Mormon in some ways, but we're no longer in practice. One of the most redeeming parts of Mormon theology for me is the story of Eve, in that she is not tempted and like accidentally, you know, gives in to the snake, but she knows that it is a decision that she must make on her own of the free will and choice that she had at the time, that she knew it was her next step for growth, and that there was no way that she could continue to evolve into a full person without leaving this paradise. And so I love knowing that or feeling, I love having grown up with that view of Eve, not that she was just some dumb chick who ate the fruit, but that it was a purposeful choice and that it was actually her wisdom that led them both out into the next phase of their growth.
Michaelann Gardner 12:31
And I would assert, and I don't know if I can, per se, have a textual evidence for this, but I would assert, going back to desire, that desire is a kind of wisdom, you know? Eve can't foresee everything that's going to happen to her. She has no concept, right? She's a child, like we said. But there's some part of her that's like, I know what I want. And that want, I think, is the kind of intuition, the kind of guide.
Sara Bybee Fisk 12:57
It’s so true. Desire is a kind of wisdom and to follow it without knowing where it's going to lead to just trust, I'll be able to handle it when I get there, I think is part of the beauty of the story and the beauty of your story. So what do you want the listener to know about the paradise part of your book and your story?
Michaelann Gardner 13:23
Yeah, we were talking kind of abstractly, which again, is by design from the book. But yeah, if we're talking about the beginning, right, I really, I am a very devout person, and I was very devout when I was in the LDS Church. And there is like a lot of joy from being devout in a religious community. And I don't even I hope I don't know if I even captured that joy appropriately, I kind of actually wish I could have done even more with that, you know, I mean, the relationships that I had. And the way that I felt when I like read Scripture, like, you know, I mean, it's, I can't do a disservice to the ways that I wanted to be there. And I wanted to participate and I wanted to belong. And like in any, in any childhood, right, like any growing up, and especially in a religious community, there's a lot of voices and authorities and adults that telling you like what you should be doing, at this often the expense of what your own voice knows. And so, you know, I want to say my experiences were particularly traumatic or unusual, but just things like, I was just so devout that like, one time I, you know, you paid tithing 10% of your income. And I was in this interview with a ecclesiastical leader who asked me if I was, you know, current the current tithe payer. There's like a thing that we did often as Mormons, they would ask you these questions. And I was like, I hadn't paid it yet. I was planning on paying it in a few days, right? And so I quote unquote lied, right? And I was like, yeah, I am, because I didn't want to miss out on the thing we were about to go do while he was asking me the questions. It was like this trip with other youth. And I just felt so guilty. I felt so guilty that I had like lied about this, because all the authorities in my life kept saying over and over, like the smallest mark will keep you out of heaven, right? Just the smallest thing is going to keep you out. Don't let that be the thing that keeps you out of heaven. And so I go into like, confess to my leader. And he just was like, why, why are you confessing this? And that, that honestly was very disconcerting for me, like, because I think I took things literally that maybe they didn't intend for me to, I don't, I don't, I don't understand exactly what's happening there. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, that, that was, that was paradise, right? Was, I loved it so much, sometimes in my own detriment.
Sara Bybee Fisk 15:52
I really identify with this description of yourself. And, you know, as, as I mentioned, that the part of me that I thought for sure is, you know, not going to allow me to go to heaven is this part of me that is obsessed and curious about sex. And I would just repeat in my head, no one clean thing can enter the kingdom of God, no one. Yeah, it just, and I would, I would try to like beat myself kind of into submission with it or like kind of chase out those, quote unquote, bad thoughts. And I loved this part of your book. It's when you're writing about your relationship with Dan. And it's in the beginning when you're talking about…
Michaelann Gardner 16:36
This is like my high school boyfriend.
Sara Bybee Fisk 16:37
Yes, yes. Never let it be said that I'm not ambitious. Maybe I won't ever write one of the hundred greatest albums in Christian music. Maybe I won't ever win a marathon or discover a new kind of physics, but I could win at purity. I could do whatever it took. I could love God with all my heart, might, mind, and strength. And then you say, every time I feel the pang of loss, knowing I will never see Dan again, knowing I will never feel his hand or experience the thrill of his lips. Each pang feels like proof that I am good.
Michaelann Gardner 17:13
And honestly, I still am that way. I'm still very ambitious in my virtue, right? Like I'm ambitious to be a good person, like to love other people. And I mean, like I work in the nonprofit for heaven's sake, right? Like, that part of me, I think will always be part of me. But there was no balance to it. There was no, there was no balance of pleasure or even like an external source other than the church to kind of like just help me get some context, you know, for what this could mean. And man, I got to like remember that Dan is not his real name. So I got to like, stands for the orient like, oh, yeah, you know, he's so great. He was just so kind and so interesting. And I think could have been a really beautiful counterbalance in my life if I'd been willing to let him be. But it was I just was too focused.
Sara Bybee Fisk 18:04
Yeah. And it just reminded me because if I remember right, you ended that relationship. Yeah, I ended two relationships in college. Because every time we would start kissing, I would just get so turned on. I was like, this is bad. This is bad. This is terrible. I can't ever see you again. And so I just really, really related with that. And, you know, I think, I don't know, you said something a second ago, like, maybe you took things literally that were not meant to be taken literally. I don't know.
Michaelann Gardner 18:39
I don't know how else you interpret, like people saying over and over, over the pulpit, no one's thinking anything like, like, what else do you possibly mean by that?
Sara Bybee Fisk 18:47
No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God. The smallest thing. Obey with exactness. You are saved after all you can do. I don't know how you misunderstand that.
Michaelann Gardner 19:00
I'm with you.
Sara Bybee Fisk 19:01
You will be safe if you obey God. And so I just want to extend that grace to me and to you and to many people listening who come from religious backgrounds who really kind of put all their eggs in that basket. If I am just good enough, then I will be, yes, then I will be safe. I will have good things happen to me. And eventually I will have what I want, a beautiful, you know, relationship, marriage, life and heaven.
Michaelann Gardner 19:36
Yeah, and I think that's actually one of the really key parts too is like, uh, it's actually not just that like God will love me and then I'll go to heaven, right? Like it's not just that, like it's like, it's, I mean, we're going to talk Maslow. It's very fundamental Maslow needs, right? It's like, I will have my physical needs met because God will bless me. I will, uh, have my connection needs met because I will acquire the spouse who like loves me. I will have my competence needs met because people will recognize me for my good works.Right? Like this is not just some like, uh, fantasy in the world. I mean, they are promising and offering like you're, you are experiencing fundamental need. You know?
Sara Bybee Fisk 20:19
And then, so what do you do when it is the body that God has given you that refuses to allow you to participate fully in the things that you are supposed to be enjoying as a married person?
Michaelann Gardner 20:38
Yeah, you know, so I get married at 26, you know, not the youngest ever, but- Same age, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. And my relationship with my ex-spouse is complicated.There's more factors than just religion happening there, but we found out pretty quickly in that I have pelvic floor condition that just blocks penetration of really any kind. So sex, exams, tampons, all of that. And man, like that is, it's interesting because, like you said, like I really thought I was doing all the right things. Like sex was and is really important to me and I was important to my husband. And then suddenly I just have this wall. Like I just like, I can't do this thing. And it makes me worry about, am I going to be able to procreate? And how does that work? And I start to realize that my desire is more complicated than just marrying a guy, right? Yeah, it's complicated. It's still a little bit hard for me to map all the pieces here, but that's maybe a good place to start with a story.
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:57
So in your first sexual experience with your husband, you kind of start talking about, you weave in another story of your own hunger and a time when, would you have called it an eating disorder? What would you have called it?
Michaelann Gardner 22:16
Disordered eating. Like it wouldn't be diagnosable as anorexia or bulimia. But yeah, like I ate, I ate really my whole high school. I mean, I'm like 5'4”, I was like 100 pounds, like pretty underweight. Uh, I would like my meals were like chips and salsa, like bread and butter. It wasn't, it wasn't a body image thing.It was just something about like food was just difficult for me. Right? So I'm definitely not getting enough protein. I'm definitely not getting enough nutrients. I'm definitely just not getting straight enough calories. Yeah. I think a lot about, um, you know, through that experience, my, you know, my doctor would be very like scolding, right? Like, why aren't you eating, right? We need to get you to eat.
Sara Bybee Fisk 22:58
Yeah.
Michaelann Gardner 22:58
And my mom would kind of just be like, I don't know what to do with you, which I really can't blame her for. It's a complicated thing to deal with, right? You know, my friends would kind of tease me about it. But to be honest, like it felt a lot like pressure, you know, like, just like, why aren't you doing this thing that should be obviously desirable? You know, people make comments like, Oh, I wish I had that problem so I could lose weight. You don't actually, because it makes you sick. But it's this weird, like, external thing where like, I know I should be doing it. I know it's good for me. Like, I kind of do want to do it. But like, I just can't get myself to do it. And I don't know why.And it just like, I don't know. And as I get to the hotel room with my husband, and it's, it's like that, you know, it's, it's like, I love you, I do. And I know I want sex. But suddenly, it feels like this pressure just like, like, are you going to just do it? Are you going to do just the thing right now that he wants you to do without stopping to ask yourself, like, what feels good to me? What do I want? What takes good, you know,
Sara Bybee Fisk 24:09
Yeah.
Michaelann Gardner 24:09
He just doesn't ask, he doesn't ask. He just is like, this is what we're doing.This is the plan. This is what men and women are supposed to do together on their wedding night. This is the obvious step.
Sara Bybee Fisk 24:18
And so without any preparation, without any tenderness, without any letting your body get ready, he jumps on you. And it's over in a few minutes.And you wrote this line earlier in the book, but I wonder if you feel like now it also applied to that moment. You know, it is also mixed with a no. Is that what your wedding night felt like?
Michaelann Gardner 24:52
Yes. And I think, I love that you brought that back. Because I think, I think consent is actually really tricky, you know? Yeah. I think if I had outright been like, no, I mean, I don't think my husband's a total asshole. Like, I think you I think, well, we can get into like, what he should or shouldn't have done. I just mean, like, there was part of me that did want, right? Yeah, it like, like I said, I cared about him. But like, I just felt ambiguous. And there was no room to like, explore the ambiguity or just take it slow or kind of like, feel my way through it intuitively.The world that comes to mind is like performance. Yes. And so I think all the time, we're saying mixed yeses, right? We're not sure if we want something like, do I really want to go hang out with this person? I mean, I guess, right? Over time, hopefully, as you develop as a person, you learn what your tastes are and you learn what's a clear yes and what's a clear no. But like, we don't really know that when we're 20 or 26. Like about a lot of things, right? About what kind of friends we like, or maybe some people do. I had it took me a minute to really understand what that was. And I think sex is no different, right? There's just a lot that you can't know.And without someone being patient to let you come in and out. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's like true consent there. I don't know.
Sara Bybee Fisk 26:26
Well, and especially when you grow up in a very conservative, you know, moralistic religion, like Mormonism, where there are very clear rules about what you can and cannot do, no sex until you get married. No, I mean, you can hold hands and kiss, right? That's, that's-
Michaelann Gardner 26:46
I was like no French kissing. That's right. Oh yes.
Sara Bybee Fisk 26:48
100%. Yes, yes, yeah. And so now all of a sudden, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, don't do it. Don't do it bad as bad as bad as bad.Get married. There's a switch that's supposed to flip. And now you're supposed to show up ready in Victoria's Secret lingerie on it and know exactly what to do and, and what you like and what you don't like and how to really consent. And it's just such a it's just such a hard switch to make. My husband and I actually didn't have sex on our wedding night, because I was so anxious. I just kept feeling like my dad was going to walk through the door.Which if anything's going to kill the mood, right? That's, that is going to do it. And so there's all of this, you know, inhibition, inhibit, inhibit, don't desire, don't desire, don't desire. And then all of a sudden, the faucet is supposed to, you know, be able to be turned on. And it's just, it's not like that. And especially because you have your pelvic floor condition, right? It complicates all of it. And your husband, ex-husband, had his own things he was hiding and not being honest with you about, right? So you, you both come into this relationship with blockages, either physical or other. And it, it makes for a lot of pain.
Michaelann Gardner 28:21
Yeah. Yeah. And just to be more specific, he had six figures of debt that I didn't know about until like the month before we got married.And, um, you know, I actually wasn't, at first I was like, should I put this in? Like, cause I knew some of his friends would read my book. They're my friends too, you know? Right. Cause I put this in, I don't know what it is. And my editor actually was someone like, no, like, like, like you have to, you have, you have to make it clear for the reader what we're talking, like the level we're talking about here, because I mean, it's so fascinating to me. Uh, if you're into tarot at all, there's a suit of tarot cards called the coins or the pentacles. And, uh, obviously coins is money, but it's also anything earthly, sex, bodies, health, like that all comes under the realm of pentacles. And I think about that a lot, like how money and sex and safety and my bodily security, like all feel connected, you know? And, um, just with him, the way that he was, I mean, like I would, I would cry a lot at night in my marriage and I was usually kind of like crying about his debt or about how bad sex was. Like they, they're really, they're spiritually, they're, they're, they're connected, you know?
Sara Bybee Fisk 29:36
You write about laying awake at night doing the math. Yes.And knowing that he wasn't doing the math. And then you also wrote this that I just wanted to read. I was willing to do the things I hated to get what I wanted. I'd rather suffer in silence if that's what it took to get what I wanted. I'd rather suffer in silence if it meant I got to keep someone or something close that I dearly desired. I'd rather suffer in silence than risk losing my husband's love if I told the truth that he was hurting me.
Michaelann Gardner 30:08
Yep. Yep.And I mean, like, literally, and like, like, I mean, like, like, I'm like emotionally speaking, right? Like with how he was handling money and like literally in the moment, like, no, like, actually, the way you're fingering me right now is like actually hurting me. Like, I just don't want to say that because then he feels bad and maybe we fight and I don't want to fight with him.
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:34
I think about all the women who are listening who are who have that yes mixed with a no, who have the performance mode that they go into where they put they shove the suffering down whatever it is. And
Michaelann Gardner 30:50
It's not always sexist. It's not always sexist. You learn it. I love this.
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:54
Yeah, no, it's, it's like worries about like, are you mad at me? It's worries about why didn't you text me back? It's, you know, it's relational concerns about am I loved and connected and accepted here? Do you see me or am I just the person who performs these tasks for you, right?We shove all that down and we pretend that it's not there so that we can maintain proximity with this person and we accept proximity because we have no idea how to get vulnerability. Thank you.
Michaelann Gardner 31:25
Yes. Yes. Oh, that's really good.Because that proximity, because we don't know how to get vulnerability, right? Right. Like, does the state of being married feels like that's it? You know, it's not actually about does this marriage feel like a marriage?
Sara Bybee Fisk 31:45
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah.And sometimes it, you know, whether you had the early marriage experience that I did where I was like, this very definitely does not feel like what I thought marriage was, but I don't know how to fix it. I can't talk to anybody about it, because maybe it's my fault and they're going to blame me. Or maybe I'm doing something wrong here. You know, whether it's that or you're just, it's like, I have a lot of friends. And as they kind of describe their marriage, it seems more like parallel play. Right. They're just, they're doing the same things together and they like each other. They like being together and spending time together. There's love there, but it's not the intimate, vulnerable relationships that really deepen the joy totally half.
Michaelann Gardner 32:34
Totally. And I think telling the truth is one of the best ways to build intimacy, you know. That was a hard lesson to learn. And I took it, you know, from my marriage and applied it.I write later about other relationships where I had to learn to tell the truth. And I actually left my marriage and my church in the same month. May 2019, I like told my husband, like, this is not going to work out. And I took off like my, like ritual under clothing. And, you know, people will often ask me like, well, did you get divorced because like, like, I think that I think they think in their heads, like, my husband was like mad at me for leaving the church. And that's like why we got divorced. It's not connected in that way. But it is connected in the sense that like, I looked at these two people, these two entities, my husband and my institutional religion. And I just said, like, first of all, like, can I love you just the way you are? Right? Like, like, can I accept that you might never change? Like, my husband might never get a job. Like, my church might never, I don't know, take care of his queer members, you know, whatever the thing is. And like, and can I tell you the truth about how I feel about that and like who I am? And like, what happened? Like, if I tell you the truth, like, do you punish me? Or do you do we do we get closer when I tell you the truth? And quite honestly, in both instances, it was very clear to me that every time I told the truth, I'm not even trying, like, I'm not even trying to weaponize or be mean or be like, you're a terrible person, like to my ex husband, it just I'm just telling you how I like the truth of how I feel. Like, there's no there's no blame here. It's just the facts of how things feel in my body. And I don't I just don't think either either thing could take it, like they couldn't take it. And so there's no there can never be true intimacy there, they can never be true closeness. So then then what?
Sara Bybee Fisk 34:32
I just want to point out that before you were able to tell the truth, though, you began to feel like a reawakening of hunger and desire. I think that's such an important point to make because it happened when you were allowed to just eat as you like, do as you like, right? When you were able to be curious about food that was not part of your, right? It happened in Germany, right?
Michaelann Gardner 35:02
Yeah, I know I still I felt so lucky I was a nanny in Germany and like, it just food was just available because we ate as a family, right? Like it was just there. And enough times of doing that. I mean, it was just, it took like a little mental burden off of me, right?Like it was there. And I and I learned, I learned that I love tomatoes and caprese. I had no idea, right? It's still one of my favorite foods. And you know, because they're kind of strangers to me, they're not going to like, look at me sideways if I'm not eating, but like, I will because it's there, you know…
Sara Bybee Fisk 35:37
Yeah. And so the awakening of the hunger and your realization that, you know, desire comes back, lead to having to tell the truth. You know, you were talking about telling the truth just a minute ago, and the reality is the truth has consequences, hurts people's feelings, it can alienate you, it can kind of pull the curtain back on something that other people don't want to see. And so it's interesting because when I coach women and when we're in, you know, group coaching settings or private coaching settings, we talk a lot about telling the truth. Like even if it's just to yourself first, to tell the truth is such a revolution because you can say my yes is actually mixed with a little bit of a no here, or I don't fully feel like safe here or connected here, or I don't like this, I don't know exactly why, but I'm willing to stick with it until I find out. And so I understand for so long why you didn't tell the truth.
Michaelann Gardner 36:47
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I, and I think a lot of, I think most people, and especially most women don't, I mean, definitely not in your twenties and you can, a lot of women go their whole life without ever doing it. Right? Like it's a very, it's a very effective protective mechanism. And, and I think a lot of people are in relationships where, I don't know if I want to say this, but like, you know, maybe things are safe enough, right? Like, yeah, safe enough. Yeah. If they don't tell the truth. I mean, could their life be richer and fuller if they did, sure. But like their husband is basically a nice person, you know, like they're, they're just basically happy. But in my situation, it just got so extreme that, I mean, it felt like the choice was either just literally being in pain the rest of my life or tell the truth. And, and I think without actually that crisis, like without the number of times, like while I'm going through this pelvic floor stuff and I'm going to all these physical therapists, I'm taking all this medication and I'm like doing all these things. Like I was like, it felt like the worst thing that ever happened to me. And now retrospect, I'm like, thank you for that crisis. Thank you for backing me up against a wall where I had to decide like, you know, will you just be in pain or will you tell the truth? And the pain was so bad that it wasn't going to be an option, you know. Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:07
And you write about how for a long time, it took you a while to even be truthful with doctors and medical professionals about…
Michaelann Gardner 38:16
Yeah, that’s its own kind of institutional authority, right?
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:18
Yeah, and then you meet Heidi. Can you tell us about Heidi?
Michaelann Gardner 38:23
Yeah. One of the best things about writing this book and I'm going to cry is like, so I dedicated the book to Heidi and I got to leave her a copy at her office and we texted a little bit about it and I got to, you know, tell her like, just like what she meant to me.I'm in this place, this paradise, where nobody's asking me like what I want or how I feel or how things feel for me. You know, my church isn't, my parents aren't, my husband isn't, my doctors aren't. They're just like, here's the thing I need you to do, just do it. And like, why aren't you doing it? And if you've, you know, especially if you've been a woman, you know, you go to these like gynecological appointments and they just like throw a robe at you and like just do the thing and like get it over with. And so I've kind of given up actually, which is an interesting spiritual thing to realize the number of times that I give up that I surrender and then the breakthrough happens. But I kind of given up and a friend of mine persuaded me that her gynecologist was amazing and I was like, okay, fine, I'll try another gynecologist like one more time. And I go in and I expect to see like the robe and the whole procedure and there isn't a robe there. And so I asked the nurse, I'm like, do I undress? And she's like, no, like Heidi doesn't have you undressed like for the first time. I was like, oh, okay, this already feels different. And she came in and my memory of how it went down is she just asked me a lot of questions and just like looked at me, you know, which is so, it's so basic, but like nobody had done that, you know, like nobody had just like asked me, like, what is this like for you? And my memory is that this went on for like a few visits where like she didn't push the point on getting an exam. She just let me like, come and we check in and like, you know, she had given me different things to try and we just see how that was going. And I don't remember exactly how long it went on, but it was substantial. And then like, eventually I felt ready to try like a pelvic floor exam. And I was like, so proud of myself, like when I did, you know, and, and I didn't, it was like mostly pain free and like, and, you know, you get this whole speculum is like expand, like if you know, if you have any like, non vagina having listeners, like, I mean, like, just imagine having like your rectum like pried open, right? Like it is not a pleasant experience if you don't have pelvic floor problems. And, you know, it's just from that moment, I felt like I had, I understood that at a somatic level, like a deep body level, like what I needed in order to open up like, like literally physically, but also emotionally to someone, I just needed someone just to be like a little patient. Like it's not rocket science, you know? Like, I'm actually like this close, right? Like I'm not like this super broken person, I just need some decency. And that that changed me.
Sara Bybee Fisk 41:32
It's such a beautiful parallel to a sexual experience you describe having later in the book with a man who has some similar obstacles. Can you tell us about that?
Michaelann Gardner 41:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So someone I was like dating sleeping with then he's very anxious, you know, I love him. He's still like one of my really close friends. And similar, I think he like really wants sex and he wants that connection. But he gets in his head a lot.And we were just sort of, you know, fooling around. And he just sort of turned to me at one point, he just was like, Oh, I'm just I don't want to do this, you know, I'm just like, he just you could tell that he was so upset with himself that suddenly he wasn't in the mood anymore, feeling broken. And I, I love that by that point, I could offer him like what had been offered to me. And I just like, yeah, it's chill. It's cool. Like, let's just talk. And we just like, lied in bed for a little while and just like, I don't talked about music or whatever the thing was. And like, after a little while, like, I mean, his reaction came back. And he was like, how did you do that? And I was like, I just made it safe. I just created safety.
Sara Bybee Fisk 42:47
Yeah, I just slowed down. I looked at you. I treated you like a person. Yeah.
Michaelann Gardner 42:55
And I mean, I know it's easy to be like, this is like a women's thing, right? Women are like, what if they think microwaves and men are like, whatever the metaphor is.
Sara Bybee Fisk 43:05
Women are crockpots, men are microwaves.
Michaelann Gardner 43:08
Yes, that's it, like fine, I don't know. I'm sure there's hormonal stuff going on there that maybe that's true at some biological level, but the men that I know, the men that I've slept with, they want tenderness and care just as much as I do. And they don't often, I would say in some ways, I won't say that it's like harder for them, but it's different because at least women, at least there's like jokes about it. Like we know we're supposed to be like slowing down with women if we don't always. Because men, it's like, I didn't even know I was allowed to want that. You know.
Sara Bybee Fisk 43:43
So you leave your marriage and the church in the same month, and what you realize, this is one of my favorite parts of your book, and you have a moment and you're saying, in this moment, I was realizing how completely inadequate the theology of my childhood is for this moment in my life. And it's a moment when you are like surrendering, like completely, I've tried, I've gone to the treatments, I've taken the pills, I've done the exercises, I've tried, I've tried, I've tried.
Michaelann Gardner 44:17
Up a lot of chastity, like, yeah, you know.
Sara Bybee Fisk 44:20
Yeah. And it is something that your, our shared childhood theology has no, nothing to catch us. Right? And this is what you say. If they were wrong about sex, if it wasn't only magical, holy, sweet, or sacred, if it also happened in the body, what else were they wrong about? If the way they told me to think about and act on sex, divorced from body, centered only in spirit, damaged me enough that it's taken years of thinking of almost nothing else of yoga and therapy and practice and trauma and crying and pain, what else were they wrong about in the way I was taught to see the world?Everything felt shattered open. I was coming to a new reality of the multitudes God could contain. God is not only heavenly, but also earthly. God not only is clean, but also as dirt bound. God is touching and play and pleasure for only pleasure's sake, without purpose, without goal or aim. God is disgusting. God is tender. God is sorrow and salt, release and redemption. More than clean lines and quiet voices. More.
Michaelann Gardner 45:40
Yeah. And I think, you know, specifically in our church, they talked about sex is sacred. Another thing that was meant as like the most sacred thing was like temples. And you go to temples and like, people are literally dressed all in white, the carpet is white, and it's like vacuumed every night, like, there's no dust, it's spotless. And then I like have my first orgasm, and I'm like, huh, this does not feel like that.
Sara Bybee Fisk 46:06
Absolutely.
Michaelann Gardner 46:07
And the disconnect is like actually pretty shocking.
Sara Bybee Fisk 46:12
It's, it's the same disconnect that I think I'm currently disconnecting and living in, in this way that sex was so policed and so shaped in my mind as this beautiful pure, I mean, all the words that you use, holy experience. And then trying to make it that and keep it that was probably one of the greatest sources of like physical discomfort that I had, that I had to just like keep shoving, shoving down, down, down. And interestingly enough, my husband had a pornography issue early in our marriage. And I was looking back, I don't think it's unfair to say I was almost grateful. Because then we could focus on that. We could focus on this bad thing.
Michaelann Gardner 47:06
do that our sex would be fine.
Sara Bybee Fisk 47:08
Yeah, and the sex was always fine. Sex with my husband was always great.What it was was that there's a bad thing in our sex life. And I kind of think it's me and my like kind of silent, very, very subterranean curiosity about things that we're not supposed to be curious about. But you have this thing that we can rally around and focus on that is so obviously bad. It's because it's on the top of the do not do list, right? When you're, besides murder somebody. Right, literally, like it's number two, like literally they say this, yeah. Yes, don't murder somebody, don't have sex. And maybe third is don't look at boobs, right? Yeah, right. And so it was something that could like draw my attention away from myself and in a way that was helpful to me, but was terrible for him because now he's like the subject of all of this shameful focus. And he gets to be the broken one while I get to hide this thing about me that I think might also be really broken too.
Michaelann Gardner 48:23
I’m really glad you brought this up because it was important to me in my story. I don't know how well I did this, but I didn't want it to be like my husband was clearly like the fucked up one. And if only he had done Dada Dada, then I wouldn't have been fucked up. Like, sex is a dynamic, right? And yeah, he brought his shit. I brought my shit too, you know? And it was that those, those shits like meeting each other, that was like really causing the problem. And like, as a woman, I had to do some very unwomanly things like learn to speak out for myself and learn what I like. And, and that is as much a part of what leads us to this, this place. But it's so easy just to be like, yeah, men just don't, whether you're talking about a secular perspective, like men don't even know where the clitoris is, or a religious perspective, like, you know, men just all of them, they all look at porn, like, it's so easy just to offload.What is my healing? What is my opportunity for healing here and what's going on?
Sara Bybee Fisk 49:28
And that the ways in which women are taught to hide and starve themselves and perform, it's just as poisonous as how men are taught bravado and overlap, overlap, yes, lack of emotionality. And when those poisons meet, right, or the shit meets, in a marriage, there is, there's a lot of pain because no one knows how to tell the truth. No one is rewarded for talking about what's going on inside of me. I remember the first time my husband could really put into words, why he was looking at porn. And it's like, Sara, I just want to go someplace where I feel good. And it made me feel so much compassion. Because I'm like, you know what, so do I. So do I and I want it with you. And so telling the truth was such such a healing thing for both of us. But it took a long time to like excavate that out.
Michaelann Gardner 50:38
One of the things I'm still maddest about is my fucking husband like acting like I was the problem. Like it was multiple times and he was like, well, I was married before and I had sex. So like, I'm not the issue here, you know, we go to like fucking like sex therapy and he's like, Oh, actually that was kind of helpful.I'll pay for half of it. Like what the fuck man? Like this is our sex life.This is not me.Yes.I'm still mad about it. And primarily because fine, you know how to like go down on me. Great. I'm happy for you.What are you going to tell me to my face that, you know, I feel hurt. I feel rejected.I feel sad.I want you. You don't. You've never said those words.I know that's how you feel, but you're not saying them. And so you are part of this dynamic that is making this impossible.
Sara Bybee Fisk 51:24
Yeah. When are you going to tell me why you're not able to get a job? Yeah. Right. When are you going to tell me how you manage to accumulate multiple six figures of debt and didn't think to tell me until a month before we get married? Yeah. And when am I going to be able to tell you why I felt like that was acceptable? Right. To move forward in that kind of a financial situation. There's just multiple layers of truth telling that don't happen because there's no connection to ourselves. There's only the shame of knowing that something that we're doing or something that has happened is outside of the lines of the prescribed roles and rules that we are supposed to be inhabiting and living. And then it just fucks everything up and there's so much pain.
Michaelann Gardner 52:12
And I think it shows up in the body and it shows up in the sex. And I mean, if people can have great sex and be super dysfunctional for sure. But I mean, that was my experience too, is like, it's just like the truth will out and it will usually come out like through, like through the body. Like I can say lots of things and I can pretend lots of things. But when I'm in that bed with you, like she's like, no.
Sara Bybee Fisk 52:38
That's right. And you write about that, you say, I couldn't say no. So my body said no for me. Yeah. And I wonder when you think about the incidence of, you know, autoimmune disorder, 80%, if you have 100 people who are diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder, 80 of them are women.
Michaelann Gardner 52:54
I know.
Sara Bybee Fisk 52:55
And the way our hips hurt and our shoulders hurt and our neck hurt and our back hurt, it shows up in the body.
Michaelann Gardner 53:02
I know I really do believe it. And I believe it just from my like actual research and the neurological origins of pain, like, I mean, pain is, it is like neurons firing, it's in the body, but it's also the way, like I said at the beginning, like, it's how you are observing and experiencing something, you know, there's this objectiveness to it.It's just, yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 53:22
And so I think it's only fitting that you talk about a lot of your healing happening in your body about being able to not only have sexual experiences that feel very enjoyable to you, but this is the part that I identified so much with that I wanted to read. I want to lean into all the luscious frantic profanity of sex with you. I want the letting go of rules and what's right. I want profanity.I want taboo, but also I deeply want tenderness. The way you might afterwards wrap me in a quilt. The way you might be grateful to some otherworldly power that we are here together alone.
Michaelann Gardner 54:05
Yeah, I moved into the apartment I'm currently in in 2020. I was married for five years. I lived in this apartment for five years.I'm moving out this week, this month. The risk of really adding myself as a slut. Like I brought so many men back here, you know? And I'm joking about the slut thing because it was just, it was lovely. Some of them were jerks and some of them I never saw again. And some of them are like my closest friends now, you know? And I have a part in my dedication or my acknowledgement sets for a few of them in particular who really changed me just by like loving me well and slowing down with me. And like you just can't masturbate enough to do that kind of healing work, right? You have to really do it with another person who genuinely cares about you more than about the outcome.
Sara Bybee Fisk 55:00
That's such an interesting comment. I never thought about that. But if we as mammals are meant to exist in relationship to each other, you're right. That ultimate healing happened first in your body and then had to be shared in relationship with another person to feel really, really complete. You can't masturbate enough. Let's put that on a t-shirt.
Michaelann Gardner 55:25
Wisdom from Michael A. Gardner.
Sara Bybee Fisk 55:30
Well, Michaelann, I just can't say it enough. I loved your book. It is about sex. It is about God. It is about religion and disordered eating and chronic pain and divorce, but it's also about finding your hunger and desire and letting that be the guide that guides you out into a promised land that I think... I'll speak for both of us here and you correct me if I'm wrong. It looks a little different than we tho ught. It was going to look like you are divorced. My husband and I managed to stay married. It's 26 going on, 27 years. And the running joke is that's only because we never wanted to get divorced at the same time. But the healing and the way that your hunger and desire led you out, the wisdom that it was for you, it just comes through so clearly in these pages. And I, for one, if you wrote this book for no one else, well, he wrote it for you, I'm sure, but you also wrote it for me. And I'm just so incredibly grateful that you would put into words some of the things that I had just never connected and thought of before. So thank you.
Michaelann Gardner 56:43
Yeah, it's very touching. It's very touching for me.I, um, yeah, I had someone, a BYU professor commented, he's like, say, yeah, like your story was like, very, like, it was very specific to you. And I was like, a man, male, man, whatever. I mean, I know what he means, but I actually did try to go into the details, right? To not make it generic. But I don't think you even have to be Mormon or even religious. I mean, my best friend is raised secular.
Sara Bybee Fisk 57:12
Mm-hmm.
Michaelann Gardner 57:13
And she and I have shocking parallel experiences. It's very costly to tell the truth, like you were saying, and to follow it out. I wish it for everybody, like I do. And if the story illuminates what that journey can be like, it maybe eases it for someone else, even if it's just like affirmation, you know? Yeah, it was a hard project. It was like four years, you know? And I revised a lot and I struggled a lot through and I questioned a lot about should even be saying this out loud, right? Like, I mean, I have a whole thing where I talk, I like go into detail about the first time I masturbated and like, that's highly personal. But at the end of the day, it's the truth, right? It's the truth. And I knew that the truth sets you free and it sets other people free. And I'm really so grateful, like any of the word that I want, but just grateful that it touched you. It means a lot, thank you.
Sara Bybee Fisk 58:14
Absolutely. Michaelann Gardner, thank you. Her book is Sovereign and you can get it on Amazon. And thank you so much for being with me.
Michaelann Gardner 58:26
Yeah, thanks Sara.
