Episode 129 - How to Break the Habit of Auto Accommodating

When you’re asked to take on extra work, stay late at the office, or do a favor for a friend or family member, do you ever say “yes” automatically, without thinking about what it will actually cost you? This habit is known as auto-accommodating, and it’s so common among people pleasers that I've decided to dedicate an episode to it. In this episode, we explore the programming behind auto-accommodating and how to practice pausing before you respond so your answer is actually aligned with your needs and desires. Here’s what I cover:​

• How we are programmed to conflate accommodation with reward, safety, and connection

• 3 questions to help you understand the part of yourself that habitually auto-accommodates

• How toxic capitalism reinforces the idea that our worth comes from serving others at our own expense

• Why going back and revising an automatic “yes” will help you build your pause muscle

• How to avoid self-judgment around your fear of saying “no”

• A phrase to use when you want to contribute without auto-accommodating

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Transcript

00:58

I received a message from someone listening to the podcast, and here's what she wrote. Hi, Sara. I love your podcast and listen each week. I've learned so much about how I show up at work as a people pleaser. 

 01:09

There's one habit I'm working on right now, and I wondered if you had some ideas. Far too often, and by that I mean almost 100% of the time, when I'm asked to take on extra work, fill in for a coworker, stay a little later to finish a project, etc., I say yes without thinking. 

 01:26

Then later, I find myself feeling oftentimes really resentful or sad that I didn't take myself into consideration. I'm pregnant and I don't want this pattern to continue to the point where I damage my health or the health of my baby in any way. 

 01:40

My boss just today suggested that if I didn't quote unquote need my whole maternity leave, that I was welcome to come back early as I am such a valuable team member. So I know it's not going to change on its own. 

 01:53

Any help in breaking this pattern would be helpful. Signed, Chelsea. Chelsea, I decided to just do a podcast episode about it because this habit that you've noticed, sometimes called auto-accommodating, is so prevalent. 

 02:08

And I just want to say first, good on you for seeing this pattern and knowing that it's not going to change on its own. That's huge progress. So many of the people pleasers that I talk with really just kind of pin their hopes on something outside of them changing. 

 02:22

And I don't see you doing that. I see you really wanting to take control where you can over this habit you have of auto accommodating. So let's get into it. I first want to name anytime we are trying to change a pattern or something about ourselves that we want to be different, that doesn't happen in a vacuum, right? 

 02:48

We all exist in an economic system that prioritizes productivity and profit over people's well-being. That is not controversial to say, or at least it shouldn't be. You don't have to look any further than the healthcare system that we have in the United States in general. 

 03:08

That's what I'm speaking of. Capitalism, this kind of toxic capitalism that really creates workplace cultures that value people continually giving of themselves, saying yes, being available and accommodating others. 

 03:24

That's what gets rewarded. And it doesn't really matter that it comes at the expense of our boundaries and our health. That is a uniquely American capitalistic problem. And actually, now that I say that, it's probably not just uniquely American, but it's a uniquely toxic capitalism problem. 

 03:43

And as women, we've been conditions that in that system that values our output, that ties our worth to what we produce and how helpful we are, that makes setting boundaries feel really threatening to our survival. 

 04:00

And so, Chelsea, when you're at work and it's your financial survival that's on the line, I can really understand why setting boundaries around the way you accommodate can feel tricky and hard. There's another element that I just want to name as well. 

 04:17

Capitalism, in particular, has relied on women's unpaid and undervalued labor, both at home and at work. We've been socialized to believe that the value we have comes from serving others and comes from keeping systems running smoothly, comes from not upsetting other people, often at our own expense. 

 04:41

So that also needs to be named. Because the first thing, Chelsea, that I want you to think about and anyone else who just kind of notices this habit of auto-accommodating is why are you doing it? Like, what is it that feels at stake here? 

 05:00

Does it happen more at work than at home? You wrote about it in a work context. I know it happens for a lot of women in work contexts. What are the situations? Is it when somebody who is in charge of you asks you for something? 

 05:12

Or is it, does it happen, you know, no matter what? Does it happen only in certain situations where you are being asked for a certain type of labor? Or is it more across the board? And then what is the reward that you get for doing it? 

 05:31

This is where we kind of have to slow down and get introspective. Because I want you to do two things. I want you to think back over your history. How did you learn that auto accommodation was good? What benefits did it get you? 

 05:48

And just give yourself and your brain a minute to just kind of think back through. What happened when you didn't auto-accommodate, when you didn't say yes, when you didn't give in, when you didn't acquiesce? 

 06:00

Were you labeled difficult? Were you labeled dramatic? For some of you listening, that will be true, right? You learned that having needs was not acceptable. You learned that taking up space were going to get you punished. 

 06:16

Others of us learned that we would get rewarded by being quote unquote easy to work with. And so think back over the type of praise or reward that you were given. You're such a team player. We could always count on you. 

 06:31

You're so flexible or adaptable. You never complain. You're so low maintenance. You make my job so much easier. You're the glue that holds this team together, right? That's what it would sound like in the workplace. 

 06:45

But to a child, it might sound like you're so easy. You're such an easy child. I just love getting to be your mom. You're so easy to parent or something like that. Because while it is true that the circumstances might be different for person to person, we all learn that accommodating will get us connection and safety. 

 07:11

And sometimes there's a very big difference between the two, like actual punishment for not accommodating or acquiescing. That's a very real thing. Being bullied, being hit, being punished, being excluded, being singled out, being called names. 

 07:29

You're so difficult. You're so dramatic. That might be part of what happened. Or the other side is just being praised. In social context, maybe it sounds like you're such a good friend. You're so selfless. 

 07:45

You're the nicest person I know. You never cause drama. You're so understanding. You're such a good listener. You always put others first. If that sounds familiar, that's early messaging that really plays into why we develop this habit. 

 08:05

Because not only do we not want to get in trouble, but we want to be thought of as good. We want to be rewarded. We want to have the connection and the belonging that comes from looking like we put other people first. 

 08:21

I think in professional situations as well, there are a lot of professional perks that sound like they are rewards, but they're really just ways of getting more labor. It's disguised as like an advancement or like a special situation, like being given more responsibilities without pay because you handle everything so well. 

 08:48

You are just so good at this, right? That sounds like some kind of praise or it is praise or reward, but it's actually just extracting more free labor. It sounds like a special perk or a special privilege, but it's really just getting you to produce more. 

 09:06

Being asked to mentor or train others, which is often unpaid emotional labor. A lot of that can sound like this professional advancement, but it's really just disguised to get more from you. Maybe at work, you're the go-to person for special projects, right? 

 09:25

That if you're not being paid for it, there's a chance that your programming is being taken advantage of. So that just kind of sets up the how did we get here? Looking back over what has happened, how did you learn that auto accommodation was good? 

 09:43

Because if we can really understand how we got to where we are, then it can inspire some compassion and some understanding rather than the judgment and blame that we typically so often go to. So now we know a little bit about the history about how you were programmed to conflate accommodating with being rewarded, with belonging, with being safe, or having connection. 

 10:11

So the next thing I want you to do is to just bring to mind a recent scenario in which you auto-accommodate it. Just because I'm going to do this exercise for everyone else listening, I'm going to use the example of being asked to fill in for a coworker who cannot take their shift. 

 10:31

So I'm going to pretend it happened to me. I'm asked by my supervisor to fill in on Friday. Friday is my day off because Linda has something else and she can't, you know, be here. My supervisor knows that Friday is my day off. 

 10:45

So she knows that I am technically quote unquote available. She comes to me and she says, Sara, will you take the shift? And I just say, sure, yep, I can do that. So I want you to bring to mind a recent example like that. 

 10:58

And I want you to imagine that you had said no. So in my mind, I'm going back and I'm just reimagining. Manager says, Sara, can you take Linda's shift? And instead of saying yes, I say, that's not going to work for me. 

 11:13

I'm not available. I wish I could, but I've got plans. And I want you to just notice what comes up. It's going to be an emotion. It might be guilt. It might be fear. It might be anxiety. It might be worry, right? 

 11:33

There's a lot of emotions that might make sense here. And in my example, we're going to imagine that it's a part of me that is very anxious. That part is the part we're going to focus on. Because in order to not accommodate automatically, we have to take care of this part. 

 11:54

Because if you can imagine, whenever there's a scenario in which someone else needs something, this part is right there pushing you to accommodate because this part feels safe and feels connected when we're doing the things that other people want us to do. 

 12:13

So if you can think about it, this part is one of the parts that kind of fuels your auto accommodation. Whenever we want to just get to know this part a little better, all we have to do is imagine that we didn't accommodate, and then this part starts to get activated or protest. 

 12:34

So it's important to do this, not in the situation that I'm talking about, because oftentimes when we try in the beginning to work with a part who's very activated in the situation that it's activated, it's a lot harder. 

 12:52

So we're not in the situation right now. Maybe you're driving in the car, you're at home, you're at work somewhere else, but you're not in that situation. That's when we want to do this little visualization where we imagine that we said no. 

 13:05

We want this part to reveal itself to us by bringing up the emotion. So I'm imagining I said no. Ooh, I just feel this big wave of anxiety. Okay, now I know what I need to do. Now I need to get to know this part. 

 13:24

So I want you to just imagine that you can sit down in a moment of calm and just do some thinking about what this anxious part might be trying to tell you. And the first question I want you to ask yourself is, do you have any kind of an image or sensation or part of your body where this part shows up? 

 13:53

I typically feel all my anxiety in my chest. That's common for a lot of people. So when I think about this anxious part, it's right here in my chest and it just feels kind of heavy. There's also some like electrical, like, feels like little shocks. 

 14:14

Great. So just identify any identifying features of the part. Next, here's what I want you to ask. When did this part first learn that accommodating was the way to feel safe or connected? And I'm just going to draw a little bit on my own history. 

 14:35

You know, I probably learned that pretty young. When I did what other people wanted me to do, I felt safe. I felt connected. And so I want you to just think, when did this part learn this? If there's an age that makes sense, great. 

 14:56

Next question. What is this part most afraid will happen if it doesn't immediately say yes? Oh, my answer would be, this person's going to be mad at me. I'm going to get in trouble. So just let your part answer this question. 

 15:17

What is going to happen if we don't immediately say yes? And that's where we can often have a lot of compassion. Because if I am a grown woman who still believes that I'm going to get in trouble or that somebody's not going to like me if I don't accommodate, be careful because here's where some judgment can kind of creep in. 

 15:38

If judgment starts to creep in, just ask it to like step back and give us a little bit of room to work with this other part. I can also have a lot of compassion that inside of me is like a middle schooler or maybe even an elementary age Sara who's afraid that if I don't say yes, and if I don't say yes immediately and enthusiastically, that someone's going to get mad or that I'm going to get in trouble. 

 16:06

I can have a lot of compassion for that. And then what I want to do is actually let that part feel my compassion. And so to me, that looks like putting my hands on my chest and saying, I hear you. I hear you. 

 16:27

I understand that you're afraid that if we don't say yes, we'll get in trouble. That really matters to me. I'm really sorry that you feel that way. I'm right here with you and I'm listening. I might also ask this part. 

 16:45

How have you been trying to protect me all these years? I can imagine this part saying, I'm the one who keeps you safe. If you accommodate, if you say yes, then you never get in trouble and everybody likes you and everybody thinks you're such a team player and everybody has so much respect for all the work you're able to produce. 

 17:08

And then you get job advancements because everybody's so impressed with you and everybody knows that you're the go-to person and that they can always hand it to you and it's going to get done right. That part is behind all of that. 

 17:24

And so of course we want to have so much respect and gratitude for that and what we do. And so when the part lets us see how it has protected us, I like to take that opportunity again, hands on my chest and say, thank you so much. 

 17:46

Thank you. Because what is true is that that is real. I was known as somebody who was dependable and reliable. I was the go-to person in a lot of my working situations because I overproduced and over auto-accommodated, right? 

 18:04

It did contribute in the past to some success and some belonging and safety and job advancements. And the problem is it just doesn't feel that way anymore. But until we understand it, we can't change it. 

 18:20

And so that's what we're doing first. So now we understand what this part is afraid of and how it's been trying to protect us. So we're going to ask a third question. What is this part trying to help us avoid or prevent? 

 18:41

And when I think about this part for me, this part is trying to help me avoid people being disappointed in me, getting in trouble, but mostly like people having a bad opinion of me or thinking that I'm not as capable as they thought I was or that I'm not the type of team player that they thought I was. 

 19:02

And so this part is really trying to keep like my identity, my reputation safe. And I can have a lot of compassion for that. So when I ask, what has this part helped me to avoid or prevent, there's some really, really good information there. 

 19:26

Next, I want to know if this part likes doing its job this way by auto accommodating. Do we like the fact that that brings about, you know, some stress, that brings some staying late and working when everybody else has gone home, taking work home with me. 

 19:46

Does this part like feeling so anxious like this? And if I lean into it, my part might say something like, no, I don't like it, but that's the way it is. Or no, but we have to keep doing this. This is how we stay safe. 

 20:05

Or the part might just say, no, I don't like it, but I just don't know any other way of doing it. So then we want to know, what would this anxious part need from me? Because remember, I'm an adult. I have resources. 

 20:22

I have skills. And this part learned this very young. And so this part is very young in its understanding, right? If you don't accommodate, you're going to get in trouble. That's a very, you know, immature kind of juvenile way of putting it. 

 20:38

And I'm not saying that to denigrate this part at all. But we want to bring some of me today, that I'm an adult, that I have compassion for this part, that I have resources and skills that this part might not know about or have access to. 

 20:56

We want to just let it know, I'm so grateful that you have been doing this. And that's not our situation anymore, where we're either going to get in trouble or we're going to be punished if we don't immediately say yes. 

 21:14

Because we're trying to help this part feel safe to practice pausing before accommodating. We just want to put a little pause in here. And so I'm just going to ask this part, what would you need from me to feel safe to practice pausing before accommodating? 

 21:37

And then I just want to listen for the response. I might want to let this part know we're learning new ways to stay connected without self-sacrifice. We're learning new skills. Most of the time, our parts that are very young just need to know they are not alone and that we, the adult who can handle the situation, is here. 

 22:05

And so I just want to let this part know that we're going to be trying some new things and that whatever happens, we're going to work it out together. Because somebody might get mad. Somebody might not like that I'm going to pause instead of auto accommodate. 

 22:24

And so we really want to make sure that this part knows that even if that worst case scenario happens, there is going to be a loving, capable adult, me with them, helping them, listening, feeling just whatever needs to be felt. 

 22:43

What we're doing is entering into a partnership with this part, between the part and my adult self, to work together to stay safe and honor our needs. Because now this auto-accommodating isn't working anymore. 

 23:02

And rather than just try to shut it down, we want to work with the part. So these questions really help create a space and a relationship that is built on compassion and listening rather than trying to just override or silence it. 

 23:18

Because sometimes that might work, but it doesn't feel very good. And often, if we want long-term success, we really have to spend some time working with the part. So once we have had a chance to ask some of those questions and to really understand what this part is concerned about, how it's been trying to protect us, where it learned this, and that there is a loving adult who is compassionate and who is generous, 

 23:49

who has skills, who can now help. This part can start to trust the loving adult, us, right? So that we can do something different. So that is all the work you want to do before you get into a situation where you usually auto-accommodate. 

 24:10

Because in the moment, oftentimes we fall back onto our habits and we just automatically say yes. So here's one thing that you need to know. In the beginning, when we have a strong auto-accommodating habit, we're going to automatically say yes. 

 24:29

And then we have to go back and let the person know, I'm really sorry. I just automatically said yes. And I actually need some time to pause, look at my schedule. Can I let you know on Friday? Because if we always wait for the right situation to come up, we might be waiting a while. 

 24:52

And I find it more effective in the beginning to go back and practice, even if it just happened, even if it happened three days ago, whatever, to go back to the situation and practice in the past, because that's how we build the confidence and we practice the skills and we build the muscle of doing the pause, the first thing that has to happen. 

 25:16

I teach these steps in a lot of different contexts, but we have to learn how to pause. We have to say, you know what? Thank you for asking. I need to check my calendar. I'll let you know Friday. Or thanks for thinking of me. 

 25:30

That's something I've got to think about. Give me a couple days. Having a sentence in your back pocket that gets you the pause is essential. Because again, in the moment to that part, it's just about being safe and connected. 

 25:46

And that part isn't thinking about your son's soccer game that you're going to miss or the fact that you said that you would give yourself the afternoon to read and relax. That part isn't concerned about any of that. 

 25:58

It's just trying to keep you safe and connected. So the pause is essential so that we can then calm ourselves down and do some predicting. What resources is saying yes going to take? What time? What energy? 

 26:17

Like, let's actually think, if I say yes to taking on that extra project, that means that on Thursday, when everybody else goes home, I'm either staying until eight o'clock or I'm taking it home with me. 

 26:30

What do I think of that? Do I want to do that? What are my options? Is there only this answer or are there other answers that might also fulfill the need that I'm being asked to fulfill here? So all of that can only happen when your brain is relaxed, which is why you need the pause. 

 26:55

This is also where one of the most important things that we can do is name the emotion that we are going to be feeling. If I say yes to taking on the extra project and I'm working late or taking work home on Thursday, how am I going to be feeling? 

 27:11

How will I be feeling if I say no? Right? We just want to investigate all of our emotional response to the situation because we also want to make a decision based on what is best for the whole system, which is where I like to ask this next question. 

 27:29

Is there a good reason to say yes? Is there a good reason to say no? Investigating and liking our reasons is so important. Let's say that I'm up for a promotion and I really need the promotion or I really want it for reasons that I like and this would look good for that promotion. 

 27:52

Then maybe I decide that I want to accommodate the request because it helps me get something that I want. That's a great reason, but you need to slow down and not just auto accommodate, but you need to do it on purpose because you like your reasons. 

 28:10

Maybe there isn't a good reason and I'm just acting out of this habitual thing that Chelsea is describing. If I don't have a good reason why I could say yes, then I really want to honor that. I want to know what am I not going to be able to do because I'm working late on Thursday or taking work home with me. 

 28:32

Being really thorough as you predict all of the different possible resources it's going to take, how you're going to be feeling, the time, what you're not going to be able to do, helps you do a really thorough investigation into your reasons because you're going to pick, right? 

 28:52

You're going to choose an outcome. But now you're not choosing based on that auto habit. You're choosing based on actual data, right? Predictions of resources, your reasons, and you're prepared to take care of yourself. 

 29:11

Now that you know what your reasons are and you know why you're choosing what you're choosing and how you're going to feel and what resources it's going to take and you're happy with that, there's one other really, really important step. 

 29:25

I love to do what I call create the movie. So I'm going to say that for the purposes of our example today, I decide to say no to the extra project, that I'm not going to stay late on Thursday. And I want to create the movie where I go back to my manager and I say, I appreciate that opportunity. 

 29:49

It's not going to work for me on Thursday. And I get to practice feeling the anxiety because just because I like my reasons and I am really thorough about investigating them doesn't mean that this part isn't still going to be activated and worried. 

 30:07

And so I learn by creating the movie to walk myself through it in kind of like a practice mode. I feel the feelings. I take care of that part. I have my hand on my chest and I'm telling that part. I hear you. 

 30:22

And remember, we're doing things differently now. I'm right here with you. And I can take care of that part beforehand, during, and after. And I can practice doing that by creating the visualization, creating the movie, and then running it through my head a couple of times. 

 30:43

That is a really great way to practice feeling the emotions because eventually I do have to do it in real life where I go back to my supervisor and I say, thanks for letting me know about the opportunity on Thursday. 

 30:57

It is not something that I'm able to do at this time. But I'm not doing it cold. I've had some practice doing it. I've gotten a chance to take care of my part. Now I get to feel whatever, you know, we're having in that live interaction. 

 31:14

And I know what to do. I know how to take care of the part of me that is agitated. And even if I end up giving in, even if I end up, even if it doesn't go exactly the way I want it to, now I've had a really great practice round of going back to the person that I auto-accommodated and telling him, you know what, I actually need to think about it. 

 31:35

Doing the step of predicting where I go through all of those questions for myself. Choosing the response that I want for reasons that I like, taking care of the part, creating the movie and feeling those feelings. 

 31:50

I've gotten to do all of that. And that is breaking the habit. In the beginning, we can only see clearly the things that have happened in the past. So that's why we have to go back to the past or something that's already happened. 

 32:04

That's what I mean by that. And engage the person again and say, I need to think that through. If we do that enough times, it becomes present. And we flex those muscles, we do those practice reps in the past, and we gain the capacity to do it in the present. 

 32:27

And then we even gain almost like the insight to know when it's coming. And so we can prepare for it. So Chelsea, I hope this is helpful. I hope that if you or anyone else has any questions about this episode, you feel free to DM me. 

 32:44

I read them and you might get your own podcast episode. I just want to leave you with a few phrases that have been helpful for me. Sometimes we want to not auto accommodate, but we also want to offer something. 

 33:01

And so my favorite phrase in a situation like that is, that doesn't work for me, but what I can do is blank. So let's say that I don't want to say no completely to working late on Thursday. I could say something like, you know what, Thursday doesn't work, but I would happy to do the reports art of that job. 

 33:25

And I can decide, you know, when I'm not in the situation, if I do want to contribute something, what can I do? That's a great sentence for when we know that we do want to contribute something, but we don't want to say yes to everything. 

 33:40

So going through these steps is how you break the habit of auto-accommodating. Let me know if you have any questions, if anything stood out to you. I read every single comment and who knows, I might make you your own podcast episode too. 

 33:53

If you have questions like Chelsea did, I really appreciated hearing from you. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.

Episode 128 - How to Get Out of the Self-Doubt Spiral

Have you ever caught yourself in a self-doubt spiral, wondering if you’re overreacting, if you’re missing something, or if everyone else just knows better than you? The experience of self-doubt is so familiar for women, especially because of the patriarchal system we live in. But you deserve to feel confident in your emotions and your assessments. In this episode, I dive into why it feels so automatic to doubt ourselves and how you can begin to change that inner monologue. Here’s what I cover:

• What internal self-doubt actually sounds like

• Examples of behaviors that stem from self-doubt

• How Dr. Becky Kennedy explains the development of self-doubt in children

• How patriarchy gives boys and girls very different messages about the validity of their self-doubt

• The two voices inside us as women—the voice of care and the voice of self–and how to balance them

• An exercise to help you work with both voices so you can feel more confident

Find Sara here:

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Transcript

00:58

I have a client who is in a leadership position in her company, and she described this scenario. She was in a meeting, and one of her colleagues brought up a proposal. 

 01:11

And the minute he put it into words, it just didn't feel right to her. But instead of speaking up, she started to question herself. She noticed that internally, she started asking questions like, am I having, am I overreacting? 

 01:27

Am I making a big deal out of this? Maybe there's something I'm not seeing here. Maybe there's something that I don't know. I'm just going to wait and ask some questions and check with some other people before I voice my opinion. 

 01:40

Now, the celebration was in our session that she caught it and we were then able, you know, to work through it. But what I ended up sharing with her has stuck with me. And I decided I wanted to do a podcast episode about this because this behavior, this self-doubt, this kind of self-doubt spiral is so familiar to the people that I work with and women who are raised in a patriarchal system. 

 02:06

And I want to dive into why it feels so automatic for us and how we can begin to work with that inner monologue to change it because we deserve to feel confident in our feelings and in our emotions and in our assessments. 

 02:24

So let's talk first about what internal self-doubt actually sounds like. So if you notice yourself thinking, does this make sense what I'm saying? As you're talking and you're trying to put your words into sentences, you begin to automatically kind of, oh, I don't know, this makes sense. 

 02:46

I'm not saying it right. You begin to automatically discount what you're saying. Or it sounds like you're hearing someone's frame of mind or you have an opinion and you start to ask yourself, do I need to see it from another perspective? 

 03:00

Is my perspective not good enough or strong enough or well-reasoned enough? Or someone has done something that has hurt your feelings and you begin to doubt, should I be this upset? Did they really do that? 

 03:15

Is this really a big deal? Maybe you think, am I crazy for thinking this? Is this just like, am I missing something? Am I the person who doesn't know any better or who is foolish here? Maybe I don't get what's going on here. 

 03:30

I used to think that a lot. I used to have this joke that I would say all the time, like, I'm late to the party. But what it really was is my own inner self-doubt of like, I'm late here or I don't get what's going on here. 

 03:44

There's things I miss or there's things that I don't understand. And so that creates this kind of inner environment of constant self-doubt. That's kind of what some of the internal sentences are in your head. 

 03:57

And the behaviors look like needing validation constantly, checking and rechecking with other people. Am I thinking right here? Is my reasoning sound? Do you think this is a good idea? It also looks like asking other people to make decisions for you. 

 04:15

You know what? I don't care. It's fine with me either way. You decide. Or I don't know enough about this. So why don't you just, you know, make the decision for us? It also looks like making excuses for other people's behavior. 

 04:30

Well, maybe they were upset. Maybe they hadn't had lunch. Maybe they were, you know, feeling stressed under pressure, whatever. But someone mistreats you. And instead of just sticking with your emotional reaction of being hurt or upset, you begin to excuse their behavior almost automatically. 

 04:50

It also looks like letting other people explain your experience back to you. In some circles, we call this man's plaining, but it comes up in a lot of different ways for women when we have a tentative explanation and somebody says, well, actually what happened to you is, or actually what you're thinking is, or actually what you're trying to say is. 

 05:14

It also looks like being easily swayed by other people's opinions. You have an opinion, and although it might not be, you know, bulletproof, you're very easily taken away from what you think and convinced of what other people feel. 

 05:29

Now, caveat, I am not talking about women who are aware of the fact that they don't know everything and want to gather additional resources or information before important decisions are made. That's not what I'm talking about. 

 05:44

There is a difference between knowing, okay, I do know this much and I am confident about this and I do know that my opinion is this, but I'd like to get some other information before we proceed. That is not what I'm talking about. 

 05:59

That is leadership and that is self-awareness and that is an acknowledgement of the limitations of the human mind. And that's a willingness to ask for help and for information that you might not have. 

 06:13

Not talking about that. I'm talking about kind of the constant self-doubt spiral that so many women are in day after day where they're constantly questioning themselves, not from curiosity, but with the idea that there's something wrong with them, that they're missing something, that other people are smarter than them, that they should already know this and they don't, and so that there is something wrong with them. 

 06:38

A lot of these behaviors are rooted in childhood and the programming that we received. Because if this is happening to you, if you're in your car or somewhere else and you're nodding along, it has nothing to do with being broken or not, right? 

 06:53

There's a very good reason, actually several of them, why this happens. One of my favorite people to listen to is Dr. Becky Kennedy. She is a clinical psychologist and a parenting expert. And I will never forget hearing her explanation about the development of self-doubt in children. 

 07:13

And here's what she said. Self-doubt develops in children when they are left alone with intense emotional distress and they don't have proper support. Children who are left alone with this intense distress, they often rely on one of two different coping mechanisms, self-doubt or self-blame. 

 07:36

Self-doubt causes a child to believe, I don't perceive things accurately. I overreact. I can't trust how things feel to me. Other people have a better idea of my reality than I do. And according to Kennedy, this happens when children receive messages, and it's often unintentional from parents who love them that their feelings are wrong or overblown. 

 08:04

So I want to slow down for just a second, and I want you to take a minute and think back through your childhood experiences, how often you might have been told that what you were feeling was wrong or bad or overblown, too much, too dramatic, totally out of proportion. 

 08:25

For me, it was a lot, right? There were certain emotions that I was allowed to feel, others that I was not allowed to feel, or I was bad or wrong. And so little , when she's in her room and she has been told that, you know, not necessarily by my own parents, other adults do this as well, that whatever I'm feeling is bad or wrong, I don't have the development as a child to question that interpretation. 

 08:51

And so I adopt the interpretation of my caregivers, the people who I'm dependent on, and I begin to think things like, you know what? Maybe I am bad. Maybe I don't know what's going on here. Maybe I'm not, I didn't obviously think it in these words, but maybe I'm not a reliable narrator of my own experience. 

 09:12

Maybe other people know more than I do. Other people have a better idea of what's going on than I do. And so I need to trust them rather than trust myself. Think about it this way. You know, let's imagine that a child is overwhelmed about joining a birthday party and a parent who loves them responds with, come on, you know, everybody here. 

 09:34

There's nothing to be worried about. You're making a big deal out of this. Stop it. You'll be fine. What is the message that the child learns in that moment? I can't trust my feelings because they're ridiculous and they're overblown. 

 09:48

And my parents know better than I do. And they know better how I should feel and what I should do than I do. And so without an adult advocating for a child's emotional experiences by saying, yeah, there's a lot of people here. 

 10:05

I imagine that I would be feeling overwhelmed too. That's a very normal reaction. You should trust that. What do you want to do about it? In the absence of that kind of experience, we don't have a foundation for confidence and self-trust. 

 10:24

And then that child grows up. And actually, let me just say, it doesn't matter if that child is being raised as a boy or being raised as a girl. That kind of inculcation of self-doubt early in life is universal. 

 10:38

But then the confidence programming gets very different. Because while children raised as boys and children raises girls may experience the self-doubt programming that Dr. Becky Kennedy describes, patriarchy gives boys and girls very different messages about the value and the validity of that doubt. 

 11:01

Because boys are taught, and again, broad strokes, to override self-doubt. And they're given permission to do it in a couple different ways. Number one, boys are given permission to be wrong publicly. 

 11:17

They learn early that being wrong is part of learning and risk-taking is encouraged, you know, take a swing, try things out. This idea of failing forward is very much given primarily to boys and mistakes become data points rather than character flaws. 

 11:36

Their assertiveness is rewarded. Speaking up, taking charge, having opinion, even uninformed ones, gets positive reinforcement. Boys learn that confidence itself is valued sometimes over competence. And so the idea of speaking up, taking charge is a value that is passed on to boys as something to be rewarded. 

 12:02

Boys often have social permission to take up more space. Interrupting, dominating playground games, boys are rarely told to shrink, to be quieter, or to consider others' comfort before considering themselves. 

 12:21

It's also true, and this is a really sad part of patriarchal programming, emotional suppression is taught as strength. And this creates a whole slew of its own problems, many of which we are dealing with today. 

 12:37

Boys are rewarded for pushing through emotional discomfort and self-doubt rather than processing it, understanding it, slowing down to understand what's happening. So they push down their negative emotions, they push through emotional discomfort, uncertainty, and that looks like confidence, but it's actually creating emotional numbing inside. 

 13:03

Meanwhile, girls get the opposite programming, right? We're taught that self-doubt is wisdom. I remember being told, , think before you speak, like slow down. Don't just let everything out. Taking up space is selfish, that being wrong publicly is actually shameful. 

 13:25

We are also given the programming that our value lies in our relationships, being a good daughter, good mother, good wife, good sister, good friend. The list, you know, goes on, which means that we are taught that the relevance of relationships in our lives or the importance of relationships should be top shelf, right? 

 13:46

Number one on the list of things to worry about that matter and that our own opinions or our own feelings are secondary to being thought of as a good participant in relationships. What that means is that we get very good at worrying about those relationships, reading the room, who's upset, who needs something, who can we help, who can we give to. 

 14:11

So that valuing of relationships shows up in a lot of that outward behavior. And the result is that boys develop what appears to be confidence, but sometimes is learned bravado, a willingness to act despite being uncertain, because they'll be rewarded for that. 

 14:32

And girls develop this inner monologue of self-doubt. Now, we're going to talk about how it's actually emotional intelligence. But if you don't know that, it sounds like just this constant self-doubt on repeat in your brain. 

 14:50

And what boys get labeled as leadership, the girls' approach gets labeled insecurity and it reinforces that cycle. So that is the foundation that is laid in childhood. And then I want to tell you the story about two psychology researchers. 

 15:10

So this guy named Lawrence Kohlberg writes this book called The Philosophy of Moral Development. And he's trying to figure out how morals develop, right? And he puts justice reasoning at the top of his moral hierarchy. 

 15:29

Like that's the most important thing you can do is make decisions, moral decisions based on justice. He decides that the highest form of moral thinking is when you make decisions based on pretty abstract principles like universal justice and fairness. 

 15:48

Okay. So then he creates this test called the Moral Judgment Interview, where he tells people stories about moral dilemmas. And the most famous was called the Heinz dilemma. So this is the Heinz dilemma. 

 16:02

A guy named Heinz has a dying wife, and there's this one drug that could save her. But the greedy pharmacist who invented it is charging $2,000 for something that only cost him $200 to make. I mean, maybe he was predicting the future because it feels like that's what we live now, but I digress. 

 16:20

Heinz can't afford it. So the question is, should he steal the drug to save his wife's life? And here's where it gets super interesting, because Kohlberg gives this test to a bunch of dudes, straight, white, upper-class males, and their answers focus mostly on law and order and social contracts, which, according to Kohlberg, is quote unquote higher moral development. 

 16:48

The few women who take the test consistently score lower than men. Do they score lower because the test is biased? Do they score lower because maybe women think about morality differently? Does Kohlberg stop to ask any of these very obvious questions? 

 17:06

No. Instead, he just decides that this clearly means that women are just less morally developed than men. Problem solved, right? Research concluded. Case closed. Women are basically moral toddlers who can't handle the big boy thinking required for real morality. 

 17:26

But then we get Carol Gilligan, who was actually working as one of Kohlberg's research assistants. And she was involved in everything. And she takes a look at it. She's like, what? Dude, there's got to be more going on here than meets the eye. 

 17:43

And so she does her own research and she discovers that women aren't morally deficient at all. They just approach moral problems differently. Duh. Instead of focusing only on things like abstract justice and rules and universal fairness, women tend to think about, I know you're going to say it with me, relationships, care, and responsibility to others. 

 18:14

So she writes her book in a different voice. That's what it was called, in a different voice. And she basically says, hey, maybe women's thinking isn't wrong. Maybe it's just different. And maybe that's actually valuable too. 

 18:28

Like, it's a wild concept, right? Sorry, I'll dial down the sarcasm. So Gilligan's counter argument was that the way women are taught to focus on relationships makes their thinking and their orientation about problem solving different. 

 18:49

We think about attending to needs, balancing responsibilities. We think relationally because we were programmed to think that way. So I hope it's coming together for you now because when I did the research, because I really wanted to understand how we got here, it makes so much sense that we were just taught to value different things. 

 19:14

And I'm going to talk about how it plays into self-doubt specifically in just a second. But I want to just tell you about the four patterns that she identified. Number one, this invisible standard that women's thinking was labeled as less than, right, morally less developed, it contributed to chronic self-doubt. 

 19:38

She identified two different voices, the voice of care, which is our responsibility to others, versus the voice of self, which is the responsibility to yourself. And she identified the tension between those two voices. 

 19:56

Number three, she talked about the silencing of our authentic voice. Starting in early adolescence, women learn to silence their honest opinions, their honest perceptions, their honest questions to preserve relationships. 

 20:18

So we silenced ourselves because we knew that speaking up would create a problem in relationships that we had been taught to value, that we had been taught were the most important thing about our value, the quality of our relationships. 

 20:34

And she identified that moral worth was tied to relationships. If you're a woman raised in patriarchy, being good meant others approve of you. And that every time you do anything to damage other people's approval of you, that became the grounds for self-doubt. 

 21:01

So I hope you are feeling like I was feeling when I read this and put it all together, just this huge aha moment. I knew that self-doubt wasn't a personal feeling, but I don't think I fully appreciated how it's so fucking predictable. 

 21:21

It's a predictable outcome of living and growing up in a system where our way of thinking was programmed to be relationship centered and treated as less than, treated as second class. So for so many of the women that I work with, this constant self-doubt is one of the heaviest things they carry. 

 21:49

It is where they just hemorrhage energy and time and hours. They lay awake at night playing and replaying. Was I wrong about that? Should I have said it differently? Did I offend them? Was I not well informed? 

 22:06

Are they mad at me? In everywhere from the boardroom to the kitchen, and so many women today occupy both of those places, it's rampant across the different situations that they find themselves in, from their professional work to their work in the home, to their friendships, to their most cherished relationships, because we're constantly trying to have good relationships because that's what we're oriented toward. 

 22:38

So what are we going to do about it? How do we work with this? The answer is to let both of the voices that Carol Gilligan identified, the voice of care, which is responsibility to others, and the voice of self, responsibility to yourself, to let both of the voices have a seat at the table. 

 23:02

Now, in just a second, I'm going to introduce some questions that you can ask yourself to work through a conversation between those two voices. I just want to make you aware that there will likely be the voice of another part that is going to be very worried and very concerned about what you do or what will happen when you start to listen more to the voice of self. 

 23:29

And that's going to be very normal. That voice needs you to just reassure it that it's okay, that you're going to be with that voice as you do this work. So just remember, both voices, the voice of care and the voice of self, are necessary. 

 23:45

Both are valuable. The voice of care wants to preserve connection and protect relationships. And the voice of self wants you to honor your needs and your time and your energy and take care of you. So I want you to just think of a recent situation where you noticed this self-doubt spiral. 

 24:06

You felt torn. Maybe you didn't know whether to say yes or no, to speak up, to stay quiet, to express your opinion, to not. So I want you to first let the voice of care, which is only concerned about your relationships, answer these questions. 

 24:25

Okay. So keeping that situation in mind, ask yourself, if their needs are the most important, more important than my needs, what would I do here? What would I do? And just let the voice of care answer that. 

 24:41

What story do I start to tell myself about being a quote unquote good fill in the blank here? A good mom, a good wife, a good sister, a good daughter, a good colleague, a good employee. What is the good wife supposed to do here? 

 25:01

The good employee, the good mom, the good friend? And what am I afraid will happen to this relationship if I choose me? So just let the voice of care answer that. And notice the answers. Okay. Now we're going to shift to the voice of self. 

 25:28

And we're going to ask the same questions about the same situation. Question number one, if I only considered my own needs, what would I do here? Let the voice of self answer that question. Question number two, what does my body feel like when I imagine not taking care of myself in this situation? 

 25:56

Maybe that's saying yes instead of no. And what story do I tell myself about being a good person here? I'll use a recent example that I had. We were invited to a church service in which a family member was going to have an opportunity to address the congregation. 

 26:22

And if I listened to the voice of care, the voice of care told me, you should go, right? Your family invited you. You never go to church anymore. You should go because that's what a good blank would do, a good aunt, a good family member would do. 

 26:41

And if I don't go, maybe they're going to think that I don't love them or that what they're doing is not important to them or that I don't have time for them or that I don't care about them. That's the voice that, that's how the voice of care would answer those questions in that situation for me. 

 26:59

Now, the voice of self would answer differently. The voice of self would say, Leslie, you do not feel comfortable at church. It doesn't feel good. You don't want to be there. It's a waste of time. You going doesn't necessarily equate caring about this family member. 

 27:19

And you are good regardless of whether or not you go. Your goodness has nothing to do with sitting in a church pew for a certain amount of time. So you can see where the self-doubt comes from, right? 

 27:33

They're two very different voices advocating for two very different things. So now, step four is to let those two voices dialogue and have a conversation, right? So the voice of care is saying, you should go. 

 27:51

And the voice of self is saying, but you don't want to. And it doesn't feel good in your body when you think about going. And then maybe the voice of care speaks up again and says, you know, is there anything we could do to just show our support? 

 28:10

Because we want to be supportive. We want to go on record, so to speak, as, you know, being supportive without having to go, maybe. And then the voice of self might say, you know, you're already tired. 

 28:25

You don't need to go. And just noticing the back and forth between those two voices without any judgment, noticing what both of those parts value and want you to have. They want connection. They want good relationships. 

 28:44

And they want self-care. So then the final step, step five, is to ask the question, if I trusted both of these voices as important, is there something that honors them both? It might not be a perfect answer, but is there some kind of balance? 

 29:07

And if there is, great. Maybe I send a text. Maybe I write a letter or send a card. Maybe I send a gift. Maybe I, you know, go for part of it, but not all of it, right? Is there some kind of step that honors both of those voices? 

 29:24

And if there isn't, asking yourself in my body for this situation, which feels better? To listen to the voice of care or to listen to the voice of self? And to honor that knowing for you. That is how we get out of self-doubt by recognizing that we have both of these voices, that neither one are the enemy, and that our decisions can actually feel less tortured because we give both of those voices a chance to be heard. 

 30:04

And then we listen to the wisdom of our bodies to help make a decision. And then we start to learn that we can advocate for ourselves without being selfish, that we can take care of other people without losing ourselves, because that is the balance we are looking for. 

 30:25

And it is a balance that is constantly shifting. I have yet to find the perfect balance. I don't know anybody who always has the perfect balance. And I think sometimes we notice when we are out of balance, when we have listened too much to the voice of care and spent too much time on our relationships and not enough time on ourselves, or we notice the reverse, that maybe we have been spending too much time taking care of ourselves and we want to put some of that care and energy back into our relationships. 

 30:58

But the point is that we learn that there is a balance between advocating for ourselves and taking care of ourselves and caring for others without losing ourselves. So I just want you to notice which voice do you usually listen to and which voice usually gets silenced? 

 31:21

How does each voice feel in your body? And just notice what happens when you let them both speak. The self-doubt spiral isn't evidence that something is wrong with you. It's evidence that you have been asked and raised in a system that doesn't fully value and doesn't fully reveal your programming, right? 

 31:47

A lot of women will say that they more naturally tend to think in terms of relationships. I'm not going to argue over that. I am going to say that that's how you're programmed for sure. But that also is the programming that gets us into midlife, feeling like we don't know who we are. 

 32:03

We don't know what we want. We don't know what our authentic life looks like. And we've lost ourselves. So my hope is that as you begin to listen to those voices, you will feel that balance and you'll feel it in your body because your body knows and you can trust it. 

 32:21

I'll see you next week.

Episode 127 - Radical Discernment: Balancing Self-Care and Collective Care with Katherine Golub

I’m so excited to welcome Katherine Golub to the podcast today. Katherine and I have so much in common–not only our journeys of breaking free from good girl rules, but also our commitment to community organizing and social change. She is a coach for leaders and activists who want to continue showing up for their communities without burning out. In this conversation, we explore the polarity between personal and collective needs, and how radical discernment can help you step into the life you want. Here’s what we cover:

• Why we have to choose to take care of our needs before we can do so

• The definition of radical discernment and how it helps balance personal and collective care

• What resonance actually looks like and how it can help when you're overwhelmed

• The importance of only focusing on the next right thing

• How curiosity can help when it’s difficult to imagine what you want

Find Katherine here: 

https://callingsandcourage.com/

https://callingsandcourage.com/podcasts/

https://www.instagram.com/katherinegolub/

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:59

Katherine Golub and I are here to talk. We have stuff to say. We've been exchanging emails for a little while and we have so much in common, including not just our own kind of journey out of that good girl cage, but some of the work we've chosen to do in the world, community organizing and being a part of charitable and NGO organizations. I'm glad you're here, Katherine. I feel like we need to have a conversation today. 

Katherine Golub 01:28

Like I said, a couple of minutes ago when we started talking, I woke up with all the real feelings today and so, and I was like, oh, do I do this? And absolutely, I mean, it's important to be having real honest conversations right now. So I'm grateful for this opportunity to connect with you.

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:49

Me too. What do you want people to know about you as we begin? 

Katherine Golub 01:52

Sure. So first of all, I'm a mother of a 17 year old.And in that transition for myself and with him and with all that, that means I'm a small town city councilor in what is now known as Western Massachusetts. I have been engaged in community organizing since I was 18 years old, so 25 years now. And for the past 13 years, I've coached community organizers, leaders, activists, folks who are engaged in social change work who often come to me burned out and grappling with the question of what do they do next? And how do they continue to show up for their communities and the ways that really align with their values while also feeling good while they do that? And those questions are as relevant now as they've always been, but much more poignant in this moment. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:44

Part of your question I think is the question that we all have to ask ourselves because every single one of us exists in this place between me and them. How do I balance me and them? How do I know what my voice is when I hear their voices? How do I know what my job is and what their job is? And whether you are a mom, whether you are working in a place outside of your home, no matter where you fall in any type of the work type scenarios that we can be involved in at the heart of everything or these human relationships. And I think it's the question that I think about a lot. How do I balance me and them? How do I hear me and hear them? How do I honor me and honor them? How do I listen to and really make use of the wisdom and the value and the experience of me and them? How do I balance my wants and their wants, my needs and their needs? I feel like it's just a really human situation to be in constantly. And it's one that I hear the women that I work with asking themselves a lot. So I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about that. 

Katherine Golub 04:03

Sure. So my first thought is to map what you just said. So dominant culture often perceives things in either or. And so I find a lot of people get stuck in this question of how do I, do I, do I prioritize myself now? Do I prioritize the people I love or my work or my community now? Which do I do? And although we're trained to think in either or binaries, the reality is, is that life exists along polarities, you know, hot, cold night, day, acting, resting, et cetera. And so a polarity consists of apparent opposites that need each other to be whole. And so there's this polarity that you're talking about of collective care and self care. And we cannot do one without the other. Oftentimes clients have come to me because along that spectrum, they've been, they've had a habit of prioritizing collective care. And so they've been hanging out on that side of the polarity so much that things have gotten out of whack. And often there's this next stage of development in which people say, I need to prioritize myself next, right? But that is, that is a, that is a next phase of development. And often in order to find balance, we do need to go through some period of letting a lot go and learning to focus on ourselves. And that is not the end of the story, that in order to be whole, then in order to be well, both in ourselves and in our communities, we have to, we have to learn to dance along that polarity. And I'm holding up my hands that I'm kind of demonstrating a figure eight. So there's a dance between those two of collective care and self care. You know, simply many of the reasons, the root causes of why we are not individually well are collective. And if we do not address collective challenges, we will continue to be unwell, or we could check out, we could dissociate, but that is not in my experience, the fully embodied alive, to be fully embodied in life, we need to be in relationship and we need to be addressing root causes of why we haven't felt well.To do that, we need to dance along that polarity. And to do that, we need to choose. So I have found that, of course, we know a lot of better care of themselves and knowing that they want very much to continue to keep showing up for their families and their communities. And they have often developed a habit of, like we all do, of letting habits take the reins of the bus. If we can imagine that inside of ourselves, each of us is like a bus, right? That we have lots of different characters, a lot of different parts of ourselves. And where we get stuck is where we let one part of ourselves, like habitually hold the reins, hold the steering wheel of the bus. So for example, the collective caretaker, the one who cares for others may habitually hold that steering wheel. And so in order to allow other parts to take the steering wheel, in order to take charge, and also to develop the ability to let each part take the wheel as is appropriate in the situation, I have found over the years that before we take care of our needs, we need to choose to take care of our needs. 

Katherine Golub 07:27

And I have, over the years of supporting my clients, I've kind of discovered or come to call the way that I have learned to help my clients radical discernment, which I define as the ability and practice of making choices that honor our personal and collective needs. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:47

It's so interesting. I love that metaphor.I use it a lot as well. And what I find interesting is that oftentimes the part that is driving the bus, you mentioned like a caretaking part, that caretaking part has been, you know, nurtured and rewarded for lots of decades over, let's say, the life of a typical human who is socialized as a woman in, you know, patriarchal Western capitalist society, right? That's what she's rewarded for. That's what she is. That's where her value comes from. And oftentimes, there's a lot of fear, what's going to happen? If I stop doing this, will I not be needed? Will I not be loved? Will I not be recognized? Where will my value come from? And there's often an internal struggle that goes unseen, where this part is using an outdated, either coping mechanism or mechanism for getting recognition and connection in a way that actually is depleting to the person as a whole. But I've seen this over and over in my own life, and in the lives of, you know, other women and people that I work with, where they say, I just can't stop, I just can't not do it. It feels like this compulsive thing. 

Katherine Golub 09:11

Yeah, and I've found that in order to make the choice to release the steering wheel and allow another part to take the steering wheel, to take charge, there are steps that we need to take before that. And there's so many powerful methodologies out there, so many different methodologies that I've studied and I integrate into my work, and I've found that there are steps that we need to take before we can make the choice.And so, of course, it's hard to just release, to just let go of the steering wheel. So what I've come to name the key skills, so radical discernment is kind of a body of skills and body of practices. And very simply, there are six core skills that I've come to distilling it down into six core skills that help us to choose, to help us to release the steering wheel. And before we come to choice, we have pausing. We have resonance, which is attuning to and acknowledging the part that is holding the steering wheel in the first place, not just demanding that it release it. So pausing, resonance, which means attuning and acknowledging those parts, imagining what we do long for, learning what are the possibilities, then choosing and celebrating. Of course, each of those steps too requires a choice, right? And of course, it's not linear, so you can dance between the different steps. But we can't choose until we pause, and really the pause is the moment of choice. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:55

is the first step that I teach as well, which is so interesting because you have to stop. You have to stop the habit or just the moment from taking over.And that is a real skill to be able to do that. So when you're teaching a pause, what is happening in that pause? 

Katherine Golub 11:15

So there's so many different ways to answer that. I love that question. And there's three things that come up for me. The first is when do we pause? Like what happens even before the pause? So what I teach and do my best to practice are two things. One is just pausing throughout the day regularly, like having micro pauses. We're not talking about going on retreat or vacation, which can be great and important, but we don't always have access to. We're talking about tiny pauses, a few seconds to a few minutes to under an hour. But you can do this in 30 seconds. You can do it in five minutes when it becomes integrated into your day. So first is just having pauses regularly.And you can have ways to prompt yourself to do that, like wearing a bracelet or having the word pause on a sticky note or having it next to your bed or on your steering wheel, actual steering wheel in your car or places that help you remember or scheduled into your days. And then the other time that we pause is when we notice that we're feeling a feeling that is calling for attention. In the recovery movement, they talk about halt. There's an acronym halt. So that stands for hungry, angry, lonely, and tired. So when we feel that way, it's a sign for us to pause. So we actually often need to notice that we're not feeling well, even before the pause. And then when we pause, what we're doing there is we're noticing what is going on within us and then what is going on around us. So the first step is noticing the sensations and emotions in our bodies and acknowledging those, which is actually that second step of radical discernment and then asking them, what do they wanna tell us? So instead of telling, demanding that the collective caretaker release the wheel of the bus, we notice, oh, I feel, and asking, do you feel sadness? Do you feel panic? Do you feel anxiety? Do you feel disgust? Do you feel rage? Do you feel finding, trying to find words that feel like they match the feeling that we feel in that moment? And then asking, what do you want me to know? What happens then when we pause is that we shift from reacting unconsciously to responding or at least having more opportunity, more possibility for responding consciously. So whereas before, when we're just going through our days, most of what we're doing is habitual and there's actually, like that's how we're designed as humans is for most of our activity to be habitual. That's okay. I don't need to think about how I brush my teeth or how I tie my shoes or any of that. That's good or how I write, right? And I've learned how to read and write. That's a gift that I, that I am privileged that I have. I can, I don't have to think about those things, but where we get stuck is when we're reacting with a part that doesn't serve the moment, that doesn't honor our personal or collective needs. And so when we pause, we create an opportunity to choose. So it's like, what happens in the pause is that we stop, we pause, we interrupt the habitual reaction loop and we create an opportunity to enter a new loop of responding, which can begin with noticing what's happening within us and what's happening around us. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:51

I think that's so beautiful the way you've explained it and so important, because we do have these incredible brains that learn how to autopilot, you know, so many different processes and and I mean, I'm teaching I have a 15 year old, I'm teaching him how to drive right now, send thoughts and prayers because

Katherine Golub 15:10

How do I do? I'm teaching my 17-year-old. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:13

And to watch like the amount of concentration that he has to put into every little thing. And then I just get in the car and sometimes I don't even notice what's, you know, I'm like, wait, how did I end up at Safeway? I was trying to go to this other place. So I love that part of our brain.And it also has, you know, the other polarity that you're talking about here that it needs to be whole in that we do have to take off of autopilot. A lot of the habitual ways that we respond and react because they don't serve us. And I think that's such an important under talked about and under hyped up skill, right? Because we are praised for fast, productive, you know, really efficient processes that get things done in a way that makes everybody marvel at how amazingly we produce. And there is a lot less praise for the pause, for the slowing down, for the self connecting that is really necessary to see kind of the peak behind the curtain of like, Oh, I actually don't want this habit to continue to take center stage. I want to be able to choose something else. And that means I've got to slow down. So I love that. Any comments there or I'd really love to hear also about what happens after the resonance. 

Katherine Golub 16:39

Yeah, I do have a response to that. One of my favorite quotes is, love is 90% pacing. And I don't exactly know what the 90% means, but it just feels right in my body. And love for self and love for others. And I still don't always get it right.But it's like always going for the pacing. What is the right size pacing here? Because there is polarity between fast and slow. I mean, Tima Okun named urgency as a symptom of white supremacy culture, which I believe is absolutely true. And we can get too much into urgency. At the same time, sometimes urgency is needed. And so sometimes we need to go fast and sometimes we need to go slow. So I am not recommending only pause and stay in the pause forever. But if we are always in action, then we also get stuck. And so it's like finding that that dance. My commitment to myself this year with your permission to swear. Absolutely. Let it rip. My commitment statement for myself this year is Katherine fucking dances in 2025. I've been dancing a lot. And it's an embodied practice of I like a lot of fast, swig and salsa dancing. And also I've been practicing a little bit of going to a couple of Tango classes, which is very slow. And there's just learning to follow the movement of the lead. And it's a real somatic practice in learning to be in that polarity of fast and slow. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 18:15

That's such a beautiful practice. I also love dancing. I feel like I don't get to dance nearly enough and to just feel the inside polarity of your body, how it wants to move, how it actually has information for you. Like I want to do this. I want to swing my arms this way. I want my legs to do this. And I think that's amazing. That's amazing. 

Katherine Golub 18:35

It's been fun. It's been good medicine for this year, definitely. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 18:41

So after pause and resonance, you talked about imagining what we long for. Let's talk about that. 

Katherine Golub 18:48

Before we get to imagination, I also want to name a little bit more about the resonance piece. Right. So resonance is that moment. It's like empathy or compassion plus a yes. So resonance requires two people. So that may be the witnessing part of yourself and the struggling part of yourself, the habitual part that's grabbing the wheel, or it can be between two people. But it is when one person or part turns toward another with warmth and kindness and genuine curiosity and responds to the other person or part in a way that that person knows they are heard. And so it often sounds like a question like for, for listeners, really, like, do you need acknowledgement of grief right now? And do you need acknowledgement of fear? Do you need acknowledgement of disgust? Do you need acknowledgement of rage? Those are four questions that I've learned from, and I've learned a lot of this work from a woman named Sarah Payton, who teaches around resonant healing. But those are questions that can be particularly helpful for potentially traumatizing moments like the ones that we're living through. So if you respond with a yes, that's, and you might feel a sense of settling. I asked those questions very quickly. So listeners may or may not feel anything, but when there's that yes from the other part or person, yes, that's where resonance happens.And that is the opposite of trauma. Trauma is what happens when we are too alone. Resonance is when we are connected and together. So I'll add that in addition to attuning to and acknowledging ourselves, we also need to acknowledge often before we get to imagination, what is happening in our relationship. So a lot of my work is around helping people resolve and transform conflict in their workplaces, in their movement spaces, because that is often what leads to burnout. In addition to just doing too much, it's often the relationship challenges that lead to burnout. So we often need to acknowledge what's going on for someone else. In addition to what's going on for ourselves, often when there's a conflict is because there's things that we are not seeing and they could be interrelationally, they can be systemically. And a lot of my work is around helping people see the hidden dynamics that are keeping them stuck in their workplace conflicts. So there's often needs to be an acknowledgement of what is before we can move to imagination. And then we get to move to imagination. So in a five minute pause, like this morning when I woke up sad because my kid is at a pre-college two week thing and I'm like, oh, my baby's gone. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to pause and I'm going to be like, oh, I am really fucking sad right now. Oh, that hurts. Like my heart hurt when I woke up. So I offer myself some acknowledgement and then I'm like, okay, what am I longing for? What might make me feel better today? It can be that simple. Like what do I want right now? What do I want these next two weeks that he's away to look like? It can be really simple. Once you're in the habit of doing it, oftentimes we get into the habit of really focusing on what's not working. 

Katherine Golub 22:09

And so that can be, there can be a habit shift, a real practice that needs to happen in order to develop the habit of imagination. I'll pause there. I could say more about imagination, but yeah. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:21

I'm kind of listening to you through the ears of somebody who I might work with or who might be listening to this podcast. And the question that I think they would have is, okay, what if I pause and I experience, you know, some resonance, and then I try to imagine what I want. And there's nothing there. Because I don't know what I want. I've, I've done such a good job of listening to everybody's voices for so long. And such a total job of like, not letting my voice come into the conversation because I was told I was too much. I was told I was too loud. I was told that I was too demanding or too selfish or too needy. What do I do with that? 

Katherine Golub 23:01

I love this question because for many years when I started coaching, clients would say that and I would believe them. I've learned not to.Okay, let's hear it. So often where people get stuck is they think they need some brilliant vision or some brilliant imagination or some like they need to have all of the puzzle pieces together of the picture of the life that they want or they need to know how to assemble all the ingredients into a delicious recipe. Their steaks are very high for what they're expecting themselves to be able to imagine and that is not always possible, especially when we're burned out. And I'll say that often when we're burned out, what we just want is to stop. We want to be done. We want to sleep and that is actually what we know we want and we know we want that. And the next question is, okay, you know you want that. How do you do that in safe enough ways?You might not be able to quit your job immediately, but how do you do the doneness or the rest in safe enough ways? So I'll go back to what I the reframe that I give my clients now because I know now that they do actually know a lot about what they want. And so what I ask them to do and I do this in the very first session with clients before they've started resting more, before they've started recuperating their energy and they're always able to do it, is I ask, okay, envision the next horizon of your life, which can be sometimes we're bushwhacking and we can only see a foot or less in front of us and that is I need to go to bed early tonight, right? Sometimes if we're bushwhacking, we don't know much. Other times we're like in the high mountain desert and we can see for miles and miles and the vision, the next horizon is far away, but I say it doesn't matter. We're not putting a timeline to it unless that's relevant for their specific circumstances. And I asked them to tell me, you don't need to know the whole how all the puzzle pieces fit together. You need to just tell me what are some of the puzzle pieces that you were aware of wanting? What are some of the ingredients that you're aware of wanting? And once they have permission and an expectation to share some ingredients or puzzle pieces, they do. And so that's what I would ask your listeners to do. And partially, part of I think what makes it possible for them to do that in the very first session is that they have resonance support from another human.Yeah, they have me listening, taking notes, asking more questions, encouraging them to keep going because the squashing of imagination is a symptom of trauma. And so when we've experienced trauma, which we've all experienced, whether acute moments like being fired from a job or bullied by a coworker or something like that, or having our parents get divorced or, you know, being told that we were too much when we were little or etc. 

Katherine Golub 26:09

Or it's more the systemic situations that systemically, we're not in a situation that honors, you know, our political, economic, social systems are not set up to help us honor our needs. So of course, it becomes challenging to imagine, which makes imagination radical, I just interviewed for my podcast at Desiree Attaway on imagination being a radical act, right?But because imagination is squashed often by trauma, we often need resonance support to be able to feel safe enough to imagine what we want. And when we have that support, I now it's, I don't know, maybe been a decade or so. I never have clients say I can't because they know that I know that they can. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:58

Yeah. I like to also think about it in terms of, I mean, want sometimes has such a, there's a pressure to it, especially for a lot of women who are told that they're supposed to know what they want. And it feels like a deficit that they don't. And so another way that I like to think about that is what are you curious about? Like curiosity feels like a much more playful, expansive word. Want feels like what if I pick it, and then I discover I don't want it? Or what if it's the wrong choice? What if I go after this thing, and it wasn't the thing that I should have been wanting? And I figure that out. And so sometimes curiosity opens that up for a little bit. 

Katherine Golub 27:41

Absolutely. That there is so much pressure in dominant culture to find your one true purpose or your one true passion.And I have found that doesn't really exist, that purpose exists in relationship and in context where we are and with the people that we're with. Right. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 27:59

And I used to think that my one true purpose was to be a good Mormon and to, you know, to just really obey the tenets of that religious group for the rest of my life. And it's not anymore.So yeah, it exists in context and relationship. That's such a good thing to note. 

Katherine Golub 28:16

Right. And that curiosity is often what lets us know what we want. Our longings are personal and they're collective. We can't.And what is possible for us has a lot to do with who we're in relationship with. And so part of it is getting curious about what we want. And also part of it is getting curious about what other people want and what is in the good of the whole. And we can't know that without asking questions, which brings us to the investigation part. Also that, oh my God, what if I say what I want and I'm wrong? No, it's clarity is emergent. So oftentimes, the word that clients use to describe what they want on an intake form when they first come to work with me is the word clarity. And that used to really intimidate me because I was like, oh my God, as the high, the higher achiever in me was like, I got to help them figure out what the thing is. But after a while of supporting clients and really studying what helps people get clear, what I came to is clarity is an emergent phenomenon. Clarity emerges.So emergence is the process by which something that is greater than the sum of its parts that could not quite be predicted emerges from many different little interactions, often between people. And clarity is emergent. We don't get clear by knowing what we want, having a huge crystal clear vision and then making it happen. Clarity arises and emerges much more through action than it does through, even imagine, in nation. There's a polarity between vision and emergence that we need to dance in in order to become clear.So it's not that I'm asking clients to name what they want and then go do it. It's like, let's be in this dance between the polarity of the inside view and the outside view, right? Of what do I want? What do my people want? What does my community want? And dancing in between those. And so instead of saying a lot of clients get stuck saying, what if I don't have the right choice or the perfect choice or the best decision? It's like, no, do the next right thing now. Do the next right thing now and the next right thing now that get now, like literally right now. Don't try to figure that out for the future and engage every action as an experiment. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:49

I think it's important at this point to bring up some words that caught my attention that you were saying, because I think they have an important relevance to doing the next right step. You talked about safe enough. It just has to be safe enough to do the next right thing. You have to have enough safety, just enough to just do the next thing, and another friend and coach, mentor that I'll talk about. It's safe to feel a little unsafe. I love bringing that idea into conversations, because I think for a lot of women who are kind of paralyzed by fear of messing up, not getting it right, and doing it either in a public way or doing it in a way that affects a community that they love and are so protective of and trying to help, that type of fear can be paralyzing. Of course, all those parts on the bus, there are a lot of them that hold a lot of fear about what will happen if we get it wrong or do it wrong. It just has to feel safe enough to do the next right thing. 

Katherine Golub 32:01

Yes, the idea of safe enough is so important, I think especially right now because we are in a moment in which those of us who are engaged in social justice work are at more risk and will need to take more risk. And so we do need to be asking the question of what do we love enough to be able to take some risks for it? And what is the right size risk for me to take at this moment? There will be letting go anytime we choose something and we say yes to one thing, we have to say no to something else.And so that actually takes us to the fifth step or the fifth skill that we need is that choosing. And I really have come to rely on a metaphor from one of the oldest stories that we have written record of, which is a story of Queen Inanna, who is the ancient Sumerian queen of heaven and earth. And it's a story in which she journeys to the underworld to visit her long forgotten sister, the queen of the underworld, and in order to make the journey, she has to go through seven gates. And at each gate, something is taken from her in order for her to cross, in order for her to say yes to this calling. And she's also asked, who are you now? And so in order for us to say yes to who we are called to be, we will need to go through gates and we will need to let things go. Oftentimes though, where people get stuck is that they focus on the big gate. So for example, the big question of do I stay at my job or do I leave my job? Do I stay in my relationship or do I leave my relationship? Often these are questions and gates that are too big to answer until we cross through many little gates first, like having a conversation with our boss about making some changes or with a colleague or having a conversation or many with our partner, for example. And so we have to cross through these little gates and often it becomes safe enough to honor our longings and our needs when we focus on, okay, what's this next gate? What am I called to do right now? What honors my needs? What is my best guess? My best guess at honoring my personal and collective needs right now. And that's where when we focus on the little gates, which is actually where we live most of our life, that it can become safe enough to keep taking the next step. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 34:36

I love that explanation. So then when it's safe enough and we're able to just go through the next step and make the next decision, have the next small conversation, make the next kind of small move, I think that's what I hear you saying is that we kind of tend to focus on, am I going to stay in this marriage or not?When real, the question is, can I have a conversation about something that's been bothering me for the last decade in a way that feels like it honors both of us? And let's do that first before we make the big decision.So then how does that kind of lead you to the next step after that? 

Katherine Golub 35:21

Right. So it doesn't really, it's not, this is not, we can make sense of these skills in a linear sequence, because that just helps us think as humans, as to put things in a linear order, but it's not really a linear set of sequences of steps. So actually the last skill, which is celebration, which is rejoicing, which is noticing what is good, which is taking in the good, it's not necessarily, oh, we choose, and then we celebrate, which we can, which I absolutely like, every time you take it, you make a choice, like pat yourself on the back and do that. But it's not like, oh, we get from choice directly then to celebration.Because sometimes we need to grieve before we celebrate. And I've come to call the first, like the first steps as a practice in a micro pause, come to call it the discernment pause. So we pause, we turn toward ourselves with warmth and kindness. We acknowledge and get curious about what we feel and what we need and what our situation needs. And then we choose the next, the next thing we do. And of course, in there, it's often imagination and investigation, but sometimes those steps take a lot of time. So it's not like you just do one after the other. But celebration is all about developing the skill of enjoying what we have when we have it. And taking, rejoicing in what is good now, because the plant in front of me is good. Our conversation right now is good. The water that I've been drinking is good. There's so much that we have and that we often take for granted. So it's noticing what we have now. And also when we notice when our needs are met and we learn to track when our needs are met, it gives us lots of information with which to honor our needs in future decisions. It offers us the ability to see otherwise hidden opportunities and possibilities. It does so much for us. It nurtures our energy as we continue to move through the gates and take the risks and do the hard things. So I would say, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Let the choice, let the celebration follow the choice and do it throughout your days as much as possible as well. And again, this is micro. This is Rick Hansen's work. He identified that he's a neuropsychologist that coined the phrase taking in the good, which is just spending 15 seconds a day noticing when you're feeling good and kind of amplifying and enhancing and then absorbing those good feelings in your body. When we do that, we are literally rewiring our brains to have more of those experiences in the future. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 38:14

I've always said women overwork and under-celebrate, but it's just this kind of programming that we have to produce, produce, produce, produce, and celebration has been such an important part of my own journey to really appreciate who I am as a person, and so I really appreciate that it's part of your process as well. When you think about what becomes possible for someone who is willing to kind of work through these core skills in micro and sometimes macro ways, what do you hope is accomplished for women? 

Katherine Golub 39:00

That is such a good question. I love that. I love that question because like there's so many different ways to answer that. And I think I would put the question to listeners, right?And ask like, okay, what if you had a practice of pausing and really offering yourself warmth and kindness and curiosity and noticing what you need. And what others need and then just choosing the tiny steps. Like what would you choose today? Like what is actually possible today? I'm just like, I'm asking myself that, right? Right. It's like, okay. And I asked myself that this morning. So I reached out to a friend to get dinner tomorrow night. Cause my kids are not here and I want to have dinner with him. And I saw, and then I was like, okay, I'm going to go on LinkedIn. Cause that's a part of my business. And I saw drag bingo night on Friday that like, part of me is going to be like, Oh, do I really want to like, you know, I'm known in this community. Like, do I really want to go see people, but like I'm longing for community and connection. So I might go to drag bingo night. That might be what's possible, right?Like what, you know, I've been focusing on my sleep a lot. I really had a lot of insomnia last, you know, pyramidal puzzle insomnia in the last year that, you know, and so for me, it's like sleeping so much better because I'm taking all these little steps. I know for me in these times, it's felt like the land, the, the world has been wobbly beneath my feet. Right. And so I know that for me and some of the, like the recent Supreme Court decisions is just a felt like, uh, like the, the Supreme Court like took the world and like turned it upside down or like flipped it so that everything just slid toward the presidency. Really. Right. Like, yeah. So for me, this practice has really been helping me find my feet and my, my steadiness and being able to show up in my community and all the, like the trauma drama of city politics, right. Accentered, right. And to be able to maintain good relationships with people on the other side of the political aisle in my, in my community, even during these times, right, that's what's made, that's what's become possible for me.So the land still, I mean, the actual land, when I pause and like taken the land, right, taken my connection to the actual land and the actual floor between my feet, then I feel steadiness. That's taking in the good that like feeling that that connection becomes possible and I'll say like, I still feel unsteady sometimes. This is a, and I will, I know I'll continue to feel unsteady sometimes. And the steadiness is so much more because I've really, like, I've really ramped up my practice in the last six months. Practicing what I preach in that, or at least doing my best to, and that, that has become possible for me. It's like, okay, this is still hard. I still wake up many mornings feeling sad or feeling scared about what's going on in the world and honoring that, pausing and honoring that instead of trying to make those feelings go away. 

Katherine Golub 42:08

The grief is a part of this process too. So, and yet I feel so much more steadiness and connection to myself than I know I otherwise would.So those are some things I'm curious for you. Like what becomes possible for you at EDL these things. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 42:24

I feel like the connection to myself becomes it's the thing that I value the most because I spent so many years in this kind of performative stance toward the world and toward the people. Like I had a role to perform. I had rules to follow. I had things that were expected of me. And I did all of those things and I did them very, very well. And I didn't feel like there was much of me actually there. There wasn't any room, right? It was all kind of taken up.And so what feels possible for me is really a deep connection to who I am, to what I want, to what is what I'm capable of today, which might be different tomorrow and was, you know, maybe different yesterday. And an appreciation. It goes beyond appreciation. It's like I get to be in love with myself and I get to be in love with all of the parts on that bus. And I get to see that the sum of those parts is good and is something that can do good, not just in the world, because that's still very important to me, but can do good just for me, just for existing and being. And the way that I feel that connection, sometimes it's really strong and sometimes it doesn't feel as strong, but I can always come back to it in much the same way that you've kind of taught these core skills. And so I'm just, I'm really grateful that we've had, you know, the conversation we've had today. And as we wrap up here, was there anything that you didn't get to say that you really want to make sure you have the chance to say? 

Katherine Golub 44:16

The one thing that comes to my mind is a response to what you just shared. And I, and I love that, that being able to be in love with yourself. And I had this visual as you were saying that of like reclaiming the parts of yourself and like becoming like, you know, filling in the puzzle pieces of yourself, right? Like embodying your whole, your whole shape, your whole self.And I want to name that in an honest story, when she goes through all these gates, she does have to let things go. But in every great story, at least from a Jungian perspective, every part of the story is a part of ourselves. And so her call is to go meet her long forgotten sister, the queen of the underworld. And the story is largely about reclaiming what has been lost in the shadows, what has been, what we've negated, what we've discarded, what we've denigrated and reclaiming that, right? We're reclaiming or at least shifting a relationship with it. We can still say no to a lot of things, but it doesn't have to be in the lost in the shadows. And so when we go through the gates, we're not only letting go of things, but we are also reclaiming parts of ourselves that we have been cut off from or things that have been taken from our communities that we are reclaiming and reintegrating. And so that's also, yes, it can be scary to cross through the gates and to let things go. And also every time we do that, we are also reintegrating, falling back in love with, reclaiming our ability to be in love with ourselves. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 45:51

that's such a beautiful way to kind of wrap up our conversation because it is a process and again back to polarities of giving things up right letting things go and taking on new not even just habits but perspectives and and opportunities and I'm just really grateful to you for the conversation we've had if people want to find out more about you about who you help and possibly want to work with you and find out how they could do that where should they go

Katherine Golub 46:18

Thank you for asking that. So there's a couple of freeways for people to connect with me first. The first is that I have a regular, once a week, sometimes once every two weeks, free love letters to change makers that I send out that includes resources to other teachers, that includes podcast episodes that I've written, that includes short pieces that I write to folks to help them nourish themselves in these times. So to subscribe to that, people can go to my website, which is callingsandcourage.com. And I also have a podcast, Conflict Decoded, in which we talk about really the dynamics that lead to the conflicts that we experience in our workplaces and movement spaces and how to get clear and confident to move through them. And so yeah, people can learn more also about the courses and coaching that I offer at my website, callingsandcourage.com. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 47:18

Thank you so much for being here. 

Katherine Golub 47:20

Thank you. 

Episode 126 - The Body Knows: Faith, The Wisdom of Desire, and Telling the Truth with Michaelann Gardner

In this conversation, I’m joined by the author of Sovereign, hypnotist, and fellow ex-Mormon, Michaelann Gardner. Sovereign explores chronic pain, marriage, and faith in a way that connects to the experiences and stories of so many women—even those who don’t share the same religious background. It’s about sex, disordered eating, and divorce, but it’s also about finding your desire and allowing it to guide you into a promised land that may look different from what you imagined. Here’s what we cover:

• How the story of Adam and Eve became a framework to explore ideas about faith, bodies, and reconciliation

• How the wisdom of desire can act as a powerful guide if we trust it to lead us

• The reawakening of hunger and desire as a catalyst for telling the truth to ourselves and others

• How cultural conditioning impacts the way both men and women show up in marriage and sex

• The disconnect between the church’s view of sex as “sacred” and the lived experience of sex

• How the pain of disconnection and dishonesty manifests in the bodies

Find Michaelann here:

https://michaelanngardner.com/

https://www.instagram.com/michaelann.gardner

https://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Michaelann-Gardner/dp/1961471175

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

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Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57

A couple of things you need to know, it is the day after my birthday, I am now 52, which for some reason feels significant, 51 and 50. I mean, I know I was supposed to feel something, but didn't. And it is a birthday gift to me that I get to interview Michaelann Gardner about her book, which I am not kidding when I tell you is one of the best things I've read, not just this year, but in many years. And it's one of only two nonfiction or fantasy books I've read since the beginning of the year because I did not want anything to do with reality. So I am so pleased that you are here today. And this is actually our second interview, because the first time you graciously gifted me a few chapters of your book. And I was so intrigued. I just wanted to read the whole thing. So I am thankful that not only would you give me your time once now, but twice. And I am just so pleased to talk to you. 

Michaelann Gardner 01:58

Yeah. I mean, thank you, Sara. And happy birthday.I meant to mention that when I saw you. Yeah. I mean, it's really not, it's no way a burden. I mean, I wrote this book with the intention of connecting, you know, to women and people who have been wrestling through bodies and sex and God in similar ways. And I never get tired of just like talking to people, especially someone as gracious as yourself. And I think it's shared similar experiences. Like, these are the conversations worth having. And I love that I get to like, prompt them like on the topics that I want to talk about my having written a book. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:35

Yeah, yeah, it's so good. So before we jump into the book, what do you want people listening to know about you? 

Michaelann Gardner 02:41

Yeah. So my name is Michaelann Gardner. I live in Utah, Provo, Utah. I've been here like 16 years. So you might know it was like the home of Brigham Young University. I grew up Mormon. I'm now Episcopalian Buddhist something. I'm a hypnotist. I have a practicing clientele. And I wrote a book called Sovereign, where I try to unpack a long time of chronic pain and my marriage and my faith. Yeah, those are the key facts. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:11

Yeah. There are layers and layers of story and experience in your book and metaphor. And so I wonder why, as kind of just to set up the backdrop, why did you choose metaphor as a way to structure this, this personal narrative, rather than just like a more memoir type, this happened, then this happened, then this happened, because there's some jumping around in the timeline. 

Michaelann Gardner 03:45

It was a struggle to make that make sense to someone who's not me. I had a really good editor. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:51

Yeah. Well, it made total sense to me. So good job.It was Kathy West, your editor. Okay. I love Kathy. I have only a couple of, you know what? Very briefly, if she listens to this, she just made such an impression that I do remember her all these years later. But yeah, she was fantastic. 

Michaelann Gardner 04:08

So I love this question actually, because it is actually really at the heart of what I was trying to do very ambitiously for a first book. And I actually had an editor before Kathy who was like, just tell it straight. Like, what is with all this timeline nonsense? And, you know, it was before I think it was before I got cleaner. But I actually researched this really hard of like, how do I tell a not straightforward story? Because I don't think trauma is straightforward, right? Trauma comes and then it goes and then you find yourself back in the place you thought you had healed from. And then you think you've healed and you go back. I mean, it's this sort of spirally experience. And so much of what I felt and what I experienced as someone trying to figure out my sexuality, figure out my relationship to a higher being, it happened at a level that I don't always have the explicit words for.And so to use metaphor, I mean, that's sort of also where the trauma brain lives, right is an image is in sensation. And it doesn't always make sense to an outsider, like, why this trauma where this trauma. And so to be able to, to be able to bring metaphor and to bring something that's like, it's about feeling, you know, I really just wanted to see if I could communicate that, you know, and it almost almost sideways rather than just being like, here's the facts of what happened to me as if it were like a court case. Because also, I will say that a lot of what, what caused my experiences was my the story I was telling myself the lens that I had, right? Like, that you take the same person and the same exact experience. I mean, I even had a friend who read the book. And there's different actions that I take in the book. And he's like, well, why did you do that? I would have just simply not done that. Like, thank you for that advice. Like, you're like, thanks, Steve. Thanks. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 06:11

Appreciate it. 

Michaelann Gardner 06:12

And so I think metaphor kind of maybe gets a little bit more at like there's there's a lens I'm using here that is more than just the actual facts of it, you know 

Sara Bybee Fisk 06:22

Okay, I love that answer. So why don't you introduce us to the metaphor, like the main metaphor used throughout the book and why you chose that. 

Michaelann Gardner 06:32

Yeah, yeah. So the book is broken up into four sections. Garden, desert, ocean, promised land. Those actually changed a fair amount as I wrote, like they were called different things at different times and they got shuffled around. But what I'm going after is tapping into Adam and Eve, a story that even if you're not religious, we've all like heard the bare bones of it, right? There's those people in the garden and they do something they're not supposed to, they eat this thing and then God says, I hate you and they have to leave. It's a very Christian story. It's also a very Mormon story. We have like temples that we go to where we actually just repeat the story, like sometimes weekly, like it's like very like ritualistic, the Adam and Eve story. But it's a story I think fundamentally about bodies, you know, because they eat something, right? And it's the eating that separates them from each other and from God and from bliss. It's also, I think, a story about reconciliation. I don't know if everybody sees it that way, but I mean, to me, that's kind of actually the end of the story. Ideally is that you leave the presence of holiness, you go out and you suffer. And then through that suffering, you find a way to come home again, you know, whether that's to heaven, if that's your belief or whatever it might be. It has the advantage of also mimicking the hero cycle. So just from like a craft standpoint, right? I could kind of bring some of that stuff in. But yeah, I felt I feel a deep, like, I mean, we all feel some kind of way about, right? Like, well, I don't know if I love that story, or like, this is like the origin. I mean, everyone has a feeling about it. And I don't know why it taps into something really primal, but I think it does. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:30

It also occurred to me, and I'd love to hear what you think about this, that Eden is supposed to be perfect. Eden is supposed to be this place where everything is provided, there's no work, there's no stress. Like you say in the book, Eve can just reach up and pluck the fruit off of any…

Michaelann Gardner 08:49

Childish, right? Yes. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:50

Yeah. And it's in a lot of Christian theologies, if Eve hadn't fucked it up, right, we would all still be living in this paradise where ease was the, you know, the default, the default, instead of the pain of the world. And so, in so many ways, like religious life is supposed to be perfect married life. 

Michaelann Gardner 09:18

Don't step out of this wall, right? Yeah. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 09:21

Yeah, yeah, married life is supposed to be perfect. There's all these like images of perfection that look that way from the outside. But once you're in them, you see the imperfection, you see the crack, you see the work, you see the stress. And I think for my, my own experience was once I got on the inside of marriage, and my own marriage was so deeply, deeply difficult. I was like, what's going on? I was completely disoriented. I actually thought getting married would be the end of my struggles because I had a lot of, I was obsessed with sex. I thought about it all the time. I thought there was something very deeply wrong with me because I thought about it so often. I had so many questions. I was so curious about so many different things. I was certain that it was the one thing that was probably going to keep me out of heaven and that by finally getting married, then I could have sex and all the curiosity and all of the, the, you know, wonder would be gone. And I would finally be able to like kill off paradise. Yes, I would finally be able to arrive in a paradise where I could kill off this part of me that was so bad. And then there was all of this stress. And so I really began to wonder like, am I the only one having this experience? Is this only happening to me? And the shattering of that paradise was painful. 

Michaelann Gardner 10:54

I want to add there, sometimes people tell the story of Eve as if there's like this external snake that like makes you do something she doesn't want to do. I think that's like a bad psychological reading of the character. Like she wants, like she, like you can't be tempted. Unless part of you kind of actually wants that thing that you're being tempted towards, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. So the destruction is already there. It's already in you. You've already, the crack is there just because your desire exists. So then what, then what happens, right? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 11:27

That's such a good point. And I just want to point out, though I am also no longer a member of the Mormon faith, I think, you know, we'll both always be Mormon in some ways, but we're no longer in practice. One of the most redeeming parts of Mormon theology for me is the story of Eve, in that she is not tempted and like accidentally, you know, gives in to the snake, but she knows that it is a decision that she must make on her own of the free will and choice that she had at the time, that she knew it was her next step for growth, and that there was no way that she could continue to evolve into a full person without leaving this paradise. And so I love knowing that or feeling, I love having grown up with that view of Eve, not that she was just some dumb chick who ate the fruit, but that it was a purposeful choice and that it was actually her wisdom that led them both out into the next phase of their growth. 

Michaelann Gardner 12:31

And I would assert, and I don't know if I can, per se, have a textual evidence for this, but I would assert, going back to desire, that desire is a kind of wisdom, you know? Eve can't foresee everything that's going to happen to her. She has no concept, right? She's a child, like we said. But there's some part of her that's like, I know what I want. And that want, I think, is the kind of intuition, the kind of guide. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:57

It’s so true. Desire is a kind of wisdom and to follow it without knowing where it's going to lead to just trust, I'll be able to handle it when I get there, I think is part of the beauty of the story and the beauty of your story. So what do you want the listener to know about the paradise part of your book and your story? 

Michaelann Gardner 13:23

Yeah, we were talking kind of abstractly, which again, is by design from the book. But yeah, if we're talking about the beginning, right, I really, I am a very devout person, and I was very devout when I was in the LDS Church. And there is like a lot of joy from being devout in a religious community. And I don't even I hope I don't know if I even captured that joy appropriately, I kind of actually wish I could have done even more with that, you know, I mean, the relationships that I had. And the way that I felt when I like read Scripture, like, you know, I mean, it's, I can't do a disservice to the ways that I wanted to be there. And I wanted to participate and I wanted to belong. And like in any, in any childhood, right, like any growing up, and especially in a religious community, there's a lot of voices and authorities and adults that telling you like what you should be doing, at this often the expense of what your own voice knows. And so, you know, I want to say my experiences were particularly traumatic or unusual, but just things like, I was just so devout that like, one time I, you know, you paid tithing 10% of your income. And I was in this interview with a ecclesiastical leader who asked me if I was, you know, current the current tithe payer. There's like a thing that we did often as Mormons, they would ask you these questions. And I was like, I hadn't paid it yet. I was planning on paying it in a few days, right? And so I quote unquote lied, right? And I was like, yeah, I am, because I didn't want to miss out on the thing we were about to go do while he was asking me the questions. It was like this trip with other youth. And I just felt so guilty. I felt so guilty that I had like lied about this, because all the authorities in my life kept saying over and over, like the smallest mark will keep you out of heaven, right? Just the smallest thing is going to keep you out. Don't let that be the thing that keeps you out of heaven. And so I go into like, confess to my leader. And he just was like, why, why are you confessing this? And that, that honestly was very disconcerting for me, like, because I think I took things literally that maybe they didn't intend for me to, I don't, I don't, I don't understand exactly what's happening there. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, that, that was, that was paradise, right? Was, I loved it so much, sometimes in my own detriment. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:52

I really identify with this description of yourself. And, you know, as, as I mentioned, that the part of me that I thought for sure is, you know, not going to allow me to go to heaven is this part of me that is obsessed and curious about sex. And I would just repeat in my head, no one clean thing can enter the kingdom of God, no one. Yeah, it just, and I would, I would try to like beat myself kind of into submission with it or like kind of chase out those, quote unquote, bad thoughts. And I loved this part of your book. It's when you're writing about your relationship with Dan. And it's in the beginning when you're talking about…

Michaelann Gardner 16:36

This is like my high school boyfriend. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 16:37

Yes, yes. Never let it be said that I'm not ambitious. Maybe I won't ever write one of the hundred greatest albums in Christian music. Maybe I won't ever win a marathon or discover a new kind of physics, but I could win at purity. I could do whatever it took. I could love God with all my heart, might, mind, and strength. And then you say, every time I feel the pang of loss, knowing I will never see Dan again, knowing I will never feel his hand or experience the thrill of his lips. Each pang feels like proof that I am good.

Michaelann Gardner 17:13

And honestly, I still am that way. I'm still very ambitious in my virtue, right? Like I'm ambitious to be a good person, like to love other people. And I mean, like I work in the nonprofit for heaven's sake, right? Like, that part of me, I think will always be part of me. But there was no balance to it. There was no, there was no balance of pleasure or even like an external source other than the church to kind of like just help me get some context, you know, for what this could mean. And man, I got to like remember that Dan is not his real name. So I got to like, stands for the orient like, oh, yeah, you know, he's so great. He was just so kind and so interesting. And I think could have been a really beautiful counterbalance in my life if I'd been willing to let him be. But it was I just was too focused. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 18:04

Yeah. And it just reminded me because if I remember right, you ended that relationship. Yeah, I ended two relationships in college. Because every time we would start kissing, I would just get so turned on. I was like, this is bad. This is bad. This is terrible. I can't ever see you again. And so I just really, really related with that. And, you know, I think, I don't know, you said something a second ago, like, maybe you took things literally that were not meant to be taken literally. I don't know. 

Michaelann Gardner 18:39

I don't know how else you interpret, like people saying over and over, over the pulpit, no one's thinking anything like, like, what else do you possibly mean by that? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 18:47

No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God. The smallest thing. Obey with exactness. You are saved after all you can do. I don't know how you misunderstand that. 

Michaelann Gardner 19:00

I'm with you.

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:01

You will be safe if you obey God. And so I just want to extend that grace to me and to you and to many people listening who come from religious backgrounds who really kind of put all their eggs in that basket. If I am just good enough, then I will be, yes, then I will be safe. I will have good things happen to me. And eventually I will have what I want, a beautiful, you know, relationship, marriage, life and heaven. 

Michaelann Gardner 19:36

Yeah, and I think that's actually one of the really key parts too is like, uh, it's actually not just that like God will love me and then I'll go to heaven, right? Like it's not just that, like it's like, it's, I mean, we're going to talk Maslow. It's very fundamental Maslow needs, right? It's like, I will have my physical needs met because God will bless me. I will, uh, have my connection needs met because I will acquire the spouse who like loves me. I will have my competence needs met because people will recognize me for my good works.Right? Like this is not just some like, uh, fantasy in the world. I mean, they are promising and offering like you're, you are experiencing fundamental need. You know? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 20:19

And then, so what do you do when it is the body that God has given you that refuses to allow you to participate fully in the things that you are supposed to be enjoying as a married person? 

Michaelann Gardner 20:38

Yeah, you know, so I get married at 26, you know, not the youngest ever, but- Same age, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. And my relationship with my ex-spouse is complicated.There's more factors than just religion happening there, but we found out pretty quickly in that I have pelvic floor condition that just blocks penetration of really any kind. So sex, exams, tampons, all of that. And man, like that is, it's interesting because, like you said, like I really thought I was doing all the right things. Like sex was and is really important to me and I was important to my husband. And then suddenly I just have this wall. Like I just like, I can't do this thing. And it makes me worry about, am I going to be able to procreate? And how does that work? And I start to realize that my desire is more complicated than just marrying a guy, right? Yeah, it's complicated. It's still a little bit hard for me to map all the pieces here, but that's maybe a good place to start with a story. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 21:57

So in your first sexual experience with your husband, you kind of start talking about, you weave in another story of your own hunger and a time when, would you have called it an eating disorder? What would you have called it? 

Michaelann Gardner 22:16

Disordered eating. Like it wouldn't be diagnosable as anorexia or bulimia. But yeah, like I ate, I ate really my whole high school. I mean, I'm like 5'4”, I was like 100 pounds, like pretty underweight. Uh, I would like my meals were like chips and salsa, like bread and butter. It wasn't, it wasn't a body image thing.It was just something about like food was just difficult for me. Right? So I'm definitely not getting enough protein. I'm definitely not getting enough nutrients. I'm definitely just not getting straight enough calories. Yeah. I think a lot about, um, you know, through that experience, my, you know, my doctor would be very like scolding, right? Like, why aren't you eating, right? We need to get you to eat. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:58

Yeah. 

Michaelann Gardner 22:58

And my mom would kind of just be like, I don't know what to do with you, which I really can't blame her for. It's a complicated thing to deal with, right? You know, my friends would kind of tease me about it. But to be honest, like it felt a lot like pressure, you know, like, just like, why aren't you doing this thing that should be obviously desirable? You know, people make comments like, Oh, I wish I had that problem so I could lose weight. You don't actually, because it makes you sick. But it's this weird, like, external thing where like, I know I should be doing it. I know it's good for me. Like, I kind of do want to do it. But like, I just can't get myself to do it. And I don't know why.And it just like, I don't know. And as I get to the hotel room with my husband, and it's, it's like that, you know, it's, it's like, I love you, I do. And I know I want sex. But suddenly, it feels like this pressure just like, like, are you going to just do it? Are you going to do just the thing right now that he wants you to do without stopping to ask yourself, like, what feels good to me? What do I want? What takes good, you know,

Sara Bybee Fisk 24:09

Yeah. 

Michaelann Gardner 24:09

He just doesn't ask, he doesn't ask. He just is like, this is what we're doing.This is the plan. This is what men and women are supposed to do together on their wedding night. This is the obvious step. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 24:18

And so without any preparation, without any tenderness, without any letting your body get ready, he jumps on you. And it's over in a few minutes.And you wrote this line earlier in the book, but I wonder if you feel like now it also applied to that moment. You know, it is also mixed with a no. Is that what your wedding night felt like? 

Michaelann Gardner 24:52

Yes. And I think, I love that you brought that back. Because I think, I think consent is actually really tricky, you know? Yeah. I think if I had outright been like, no, I mean, I don't think my husband's a total asshole. Like, I think you I think, well, we can get into like, what he should or shouldn't have done. I just mean, like, there was part of me that did want, right? Yeah, it like, like I said, I cared about him. But like, I just felt ambiguous. And there was no room to like, explore the ambiguity or just take it slow or kind of like, feel my way through it intuitively.The world that comes to mind is like performance. Yes. And so I think all the time, we're saying mixed yeses, right? We're not sure if we want something like, do I really want to go hang out with this person? I mean, I guess, right? Over time, hopefully, as you develop as a person, you learn what your tastes are and you learn what's a clear yes and what's a clear no. But like, we don't really know that when we're 20 or 26. Like about a lot of things, right? About what kind of friends we like, or maybe some people do. I had it took me a minute to really understand what that was. And I think sex is no different, right? There's just a lot that you can't know.And without someone being patient to let you come in and out. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's like true consent there. I don't know. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:26

Well, and especially when you grow up in a very conservative, you know, moralistic religion, like Mormonism, where there are very clear rules about what you can and cannot do, no sex until you get married. No, I mean, you can hold hands and kiss, right? That's, that's-

Michaelann Gardner 26:46

I was like no French kissing. That's right. Oh yes. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:48

100%. Yes, yes, yeah. And so now all of a sudden, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, don't do it. Don't do it bad as bad as bad as bad.Get married. There's a switch that's supposed to flip. And now you're supposed to show up ready in Victoria's Secret lingerie on it and know exactly what to do and, and what you like and what you don't like and how to really consent. And it's just such a it's just such a hard switch to make. My husband and I actually didn't have sex on our wedding night, because I was so anxious. I just kept feeling like my dad was going to walk through the door.Which if anything's going to kill the mood, right? That's, that is going to do it. And so there's all of this, you know, inhibition, inhibit, inhibit, don't desire, don't desire, don't desire. And then all of a sudden, the faucet is supposed to, you know, be able to be turned on. And it's just, it's not like that. And especially because you have your pelvic floor condition, right? It complicates all of it. And your husband, ex-husband, had his own things he was hiding and not being honest with you about, right? So you, you both come into this relationship with blockages, either physical or other. And it, it makes for a lot of pain. 

Michaelann Gardner 28:21

Yeah. Yeah. And just to be more specific, he had six figures of debt that I didn't know about until like the month before we got married.And, um, you know, I actually wasn't, at first I was like, should I put this in? Like, cause I knew some of his friends would read my book. They're my friends too, you know? Right. Cause I put this in, I don't know what it is. And my editor actually was someone like, no, like, like, like you have to, you have, you have to make it clear for the reader what we're talking, like the level we're talking about here, because I mean, it's so fascinating to me. Uh, if you're into tarot at all, there's a suit of tarot cards called the coins or the pentacles. And, uh, obviously coins is money, but it's also anything earthly, sex, bodies, health, like that all comes under the realm of pentacles. And I think about that a lot, like how money and sex and safety and my bodily security, like all feel connected, you know? And, um, just with him, the way that he was, I mean, like I would, I would cry a lot at night in my marriage and I was usually kind of like crying about his debt or about how bad sex was. Like they, they're really, they're spiritually, they're, they're, they're connected, you know? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 29:36

You write about laying awake at night doing the math. Yes.And knowing that he wasn't doing the math. And then you also wrote this that I just wanted to read. I was willing to do the things I hated to get what I wanted. I'd rather suffer in silence if that's what it took to get what I wanted. I'd rather suffer in silence if it meant I got to keep someone or something close that I dearly desired. I'd rather suffer in silence than risk losing my husband's love if I told the truth that he was hurting me. 

Michaelann Gardner 30:08

Yep. Yep.And I mean, like, literally, and like, like, I mean, like, like, I'm like emotionally speaking, right? Like with how he was handling money and like literally in the moment, like, no, like, actually, the way you're fingering me right now is like actually hurting me. Like, I just don't want to say that because then he feels bad and maybe we fight and I don't want to fight with him. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:34

I think about all the women who are listening who are who have that yes mixed with a no, who have the performance mode that they go into where they put they shove the suffering down whatever it is. And

Michaelann Gardner 30:50

It's not always sexist. It's not always sexist. You learn it. I love this. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:54

Yeah, no, it's, it's like worries about like, are you mad at me? It's worries about why didn't you text me back? It's, you know, it's relational concerns about am I loved and connected and accepted here? Do you see me or am I just the person who performs these tasks for you, right?We shove all that down and we pretend that it's not there so that we can maintain proximity with this person and we accept proximity because we have no idea how to get vulnerability. Thank you. 

Michaelann Gardner 31:25

Yes. Yes. Oh, that's really good.Because that proximity, because we don't know how to get vulnerability, right? Right. Like, does the state of being married feels like that's it? You know, it's not actually about does this marriage feel like a marriage? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 31:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah.And sometimes it, you know, whether you had the early marriage experience that I did where I was like, this very definitely does not feel like what I thought marriage was, but I don't know how to fix it. I can't talk to anybody about it, because maybe it's my fault and they're going to blame me. Or maybe I'm doing something wrong here. You know, whether it's that or you're just, it's like, I have a lot of friends. And as they kind of describe their marriage, it seems more like parallel play. Right. They're just, they're doing the same things together and they like each other. They like being together and spending time together. There's love there, but it's not the intimate, vulnerable relationships that really deepen the joy totally half. 

Michaelann Gardner 32:34

Totally. And I think telling the truth is one of the best ways to build intimacy, you know. That was a hard lesson to learn. And I took it, you know, from my marriage and applied it.I write later about other relationships where I had to learn to tell the truth. And I actually left my marriage and my church in the same month. May 2019, I like told my husband, like, this is not going to work out. And I took off like my, like ritual under clothing. And, you know, people will often ask me like, well, did you get divorced because like, like, I think that I think they think in their heads, like, my husband was like mad at me for leaving the church. And that's like why we got divorced. It's not connected in that way. But it is connected in the sense that like, I looked at these two people, these two entities, my husband and my institutional religion. And I just said, like, first of all, like, can I love you just the way you are? Right? Like, like, can I accept that you might never change? Like, my husband might never get a job. Like, my church might never, I don't know, take care of his queer members, you know, whatever the thing is. And like, and can I tell you the truth about how I feel about that and like who I am? And like, what happened? Like, if I tell you the truth, like, do you punish me? Or do you do we do we get closer when I tell you the truth? And quite honestly, in both instances, it was very clear to me that every time I told the truth, I'm not even trying, like, I'm not even trying to weaponize or be mean or be like, you're a terrible person, like to my ex husband, it just I'm just telling you how I like the truth of how I feel. Like, there's no there's no blame here. It's just the facts of how things feel in my body. And I don't I just don't think either either thing could take it, like they couldn't take it. And so there's no there can never be true intimacy there, they can never be true closeness. So then then what? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 34:32

I just want to point out that before you were able to tell the truth, though, you began to feel like a reawakening of hunger and desire. I think that's such an important point to make because it happened when you were allowed to just eat as you like, do as you like, right? When you were able to be curious about food that was not part of your, right? It happened in Germany, right? 

Michaelann Gardner 35:02

Yeah, I know I still I felt so lucky I was a nanny in Germany and like, it just food was just available because we ate as a family, right? Like it was just there. And enough times of doing that. I mean, it was just, it took like a little mental burden off of me, right?Like it was there. And I and I learned, I learned that I love tomatoes and caprese. I had no idea, right? It's still one of my favorite foods. And you know, because they're kind of strangers to me, they're not going to like, look at me sideways if I'm not eating, but like, I will because it's there, you know…

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:37

Yeah. And so the awakening of the hunger and your realization that, you know, desire comes back, lead to having to tell the truth. You know, you were talking about telling the truth just a minute ago, and the reality is the truth has consequences, hurts people's feelings, it can alienate you, it can kind of pull the curtain back on something that other people don't want to see. And so it's interesting because when I coach women and when we're in, you know, group coaching settings or private coaching settings, we talk a lot about telling the truth. Like even if it's just to yourself first, to tell the truth is such a revolution because you can say my yes is actually mixed with a little bit of a no here, or I don't fully feel like safe here or connected here, or I don't like this, I don't know exactly why, but I'm willing to stick with it until I find out. And so I understand for so long why you didn't tell the truth. 

Michaelann Gardner 36:47

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I, and I think a lot of, I think most people, and especially most women don't, I mean, definitely not in your twenties and you can, a lot of women go their whole life without ever doing it. Right? Like it's a very, it's a very effective protective mechanism. And, and I think a lot of people are in relationships where, I don't know if I want to say this, but like, you know, maybe things are safe enough, right? Like, yeah, safe enough. Yeah. If they don't tell the truth. I mean, could their life be richer and fuller if they did, sure. But like their husband is basically a nice person, you know, like they're, they're just basically happy. But in my situation, it just got so extreme that, I mean, it felt like the choice was either just literally being in pain the rest of my life or tell the truth. And, and I think without actually that crisis, like without the number of times, like while I'm going through this pelvic floor stuff and I'm going to all these physical therapists, I'm taking all this medication and I'm like doing all these things. Like I was like, it felt like the worst thing that ever happened to me. And now retrospect, I'm like, thank you for that crisis. Thank you for backing me up against a wall where I had to decide like, you know, will you just be in pain or will you tell the truth? And the pain was so bad that it wasn't going to be an option, you know. Yeah. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 38:07

And you write about how for a long time, it took you a while to even be truthful with doctors and medical professionals about…

Michaelann Gardner 38:16

Yeah, that’s its own kind of institutional authority, right? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 38:18

Yeah, and then you meet Heidi. Can you tell us about Heidi? 

Michaelann Gardner 38:23

Yeah. One of the best things about writing this book and I'm going to cry is like, so I dedicated the book to Heidi and I got to leave her a copy at her office and we texted a little bit about it and I got to, you know, tell her like, just like what she meant to me.I'm in this place, this paradise, where nobody's asking me like what I want or how I feel or how things feel for me. You know, my church isn't, my parents aren't, my husband isn't, my doctors aren't. They're just like, here's the thing I need you to do, just do it. And like, why aren't you doing it? And if you've, you know, especially if you've been a woman, you know, you go to these like gynecological appointments and they just like throw a robe at you and like just do the thing and like get it over with. And so I've kind of given up actually, which is an interesting spiritual thing to realize the number of times that I give up that I surrender and then the breakthrough happens. But I kind of given up and a friend of mine persuaded me that her gynecologist was amazing and I was like, okay, fine, I'll try another gynecologist like one more time. And I go in and I expect to see like the robe and the whole procedure and there isn't a robe there. And so I asked the nurse, I'm like, do I undress? And she's like, no, like Heidi doesn't have you undressed like for the first time. I was like, oh, okay, this already feels different. And she came in and my memory of how it went down is she just asked me a lot of questions and just like looked at me, you know, which is so, it's so basic, but like nobody had done that, you know, like nobody had just like asked me, like, what is this like for you? And my memory is that this went on for like a few visits where like she didn't push the point on getting an exam. She just let me like, come and we check in and like, you know, she had given me different things to try and we just see how that was going. And I don't remember exactly how long it went on, but it was substantial. And then like, eventually I felt ready to try like a pelvic floor exam. And I was like, so proud of myself, like when I did, you know, and, and I didn't, it was like mostly pain free and like, and, you know, you get this whole speculum is like expand, like if you know, if you have any like, non vagina having listeners, like, I mean, like, just imagine having like your rectum like pried open, right? Like it is not a pleasant experience if you don't have pelvic floor problems. And, you know, it's just from that moment, I felt like I had, I understood that at a somatic level, like a deep body level, like what I needed in order to open up like, like literally physically, but also emotionally to someone, I just needed someone just to be like a little patient. Like it's not rocket science, you know? Like, I'm actually like this close, right? Like I'm not like this super broken person, I just need some decency. And that that changed me. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 41:32

It's such a beautiful parallel to a sexual experience you describe having later in the book with a man who has some similar obstacles. Can you tell us about that? 

Michaelann Gardner 41:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So someone I was like dating sleeping with then he's very anxious, you know, I love him. He's still like one of my really close friends. And similar, I think he like really wants sex and he wants that connection. But he gets in his head a lot.And we were just sort of, you know, fooling around. And he just sort of turned to me at one point, he just was like, Oh, I'm just I don't want to do this, you know, I'm just like, he just you could tell that he was so upset with himself that suddenly he wasn't in the mood anymore, feeling broken. And I, I love that by that point, I could offer him like what had been offered to me. And I just like, yeah, it's chill. It's cool. Like, let's just talk. And we just like, lied in bed for a little while and just like, I don't talked about music or whatever the thing was. And like, after a little while, like, I mean, his reaction came back. And he was like, how did you do that? And I was like, I just made it safe. I just created safety. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 42:47

Yeah, I just slowed down. I looked at you. I treated you like a person. Yeah. 

Michaelann Gardner 42:55

And I mean, I know it's easy to be like, this is like a women's thing, right? Women are like, what if they think microwaves and men are like, whatever the metaphor is. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 43:05

Women are crockpots, men are microwaves. 

Michaelann Gardner 43:08

Yes, that's it, like fine, I don't know. I'm sure there's hormonal stuff going on there that maybe that's true at some biological level, but the men that I know, the men that I've slept with, they want tenderness and care just as much as I do. And they don't often, I would say in some ways, I won't say that it's like harder for them, but it's different because at least women, at least there's like jokes about it. Like we know we're supposed to be like slowing down with women if we don't always. Because men, it's like, I didn't even know I was allowed to want that. You know. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 43:43

So you leave your marriage and the church in the same month, and what you realize, this is one of my favorite parts of your book, and you have a moment and you're saying, in this moment, I was realizing how completely inadequate the theology of my childhood is for this moment in my life. And it's a moment when you are like surrendering, like completely, I've tried, I've gone to the treatments, I've taken the pills, I've done the exercises, I've tried, I've tried, I've tried. 

Michaelann Gardner 44:17

Up a lot of chastity, like, yeah, you know. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 44:20

Yeah. And it is something that your, our shared childhood theology has no, nothing to catch us. Right? And this is what you say. If they were wrong about sex, if it wasn't only magical, holy, sweet, or sacred, if it also happened in the body, what else were they wrong about? If the way they told me to think about and act on sex, divorced from body, centered only in spirit, damaged me enough that it's taken years of thinking of almost nothing else of yoga and therapy and practice and trauma and crying and pain, what else were they wrong about in the way I was taught to see the world?Everything felt shattered open. I was coming to a new reality of the multitudes God could contain. God is not only heavenly, but also earthly. God not only is clean, but also as dirt bound. God is touching and play and pleasure for only pleasure's sake, without purpose, without goal or aim. God is disgusting. God is tender. God is sorrow and salt, release and redemption. More than clean lines and quiet voices. More. 

Michaelann Gardner 45:40

Yeah. And I think, you know, specifically in our church, they talked about sex is sacred. Another thing that was meant as like the most sacred thing was like temples. And you go to temples and like, people are literally dressed all in white, the carpet is white, and it's like vacuumed every night, like, there's no dust, it's spotless. And then I like have my first orgasm, and I'm like, huh, this does not feel like that. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 46:06

Absolutely. 

Michaelann Gardner 46:07

And the disconnect is like actually pretty shocking. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 46:12

It's, it's the same disconnect that I think I'm currently disconnecting and living in, in this way that sex was so policed and so shaped in my mind as this beautiful pure, I mean, all the words that you use, holy experience. And then trying to make it that and keep it that was probably one of the greatest sources of like physical discomfort that I had, that I had to just like keep shoving, shoving down, down, down. And interestingly enough, my husband had a pornography issue early in our marriage. And I was looking back, I don't think it's unfair to say I was almost grateful. Because then we could focus on that. We could focus on this bad thing. 

Michaelann Gardner 47:06

do that our sex would be fine. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 47:08

Yeah, and the sex was always fine. Sex with my husband was always great.What it was was that there's a bad thing in our sex life. And I kind of think it's me and my like kind of silent, very, very subterranean curiosity about things that we're not supposed to be curious about. But you have this thing that we can rally around and focus on that is so obviously bad. It's because it's on the top of the do not do list, right? When you're, besides murder somebody. Right, literally, like it's number two, like literally they say this, yeah. Yes, don't murder somebody, don't have sex. And maybe third is don't look at boobs, right? Yeah, right. And so it was something that could like draw my attention away from myself and in a way that was helpful to me, but was terrible for him because now he's like the subject of all of this shameful focus. And he gets to be the broken one while I get to hide this thing about me that I think might also be really broken too. 

Michaelann Gardner 48:23

I’m really glad you brought this up because it was important to me in my story. I don't know how well I did this, but I didn't want it to be like my husband was clearly like the fucked up one. And if only he had done Dada Dada, then I wouldn't have been fucked up. Like, sex is a dynamic, right? And yeah, he brought his shit. I brought my shit too, you know? And it was that those, those shits like meeting each other, that was like really causing the problem. And like, as a woman, I had to do some very unwomanly things like learn to speak out for myself and learn what I like. And, and that is as much a part of what leads us to this, this place. But it's so easy just to be like, yeah, men just don't, whether you're talking about a secular perspective, like men don't even know where the clitoris is, or a religious perspective, like, you know, men just all of them, they all look at porn, like, it's so easy just to offload.What is my healing? What is my opportunity for healing here and what's going on? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 49:28

And that the ways in which women are taught to hide and starve themselves and perform, it's just as poisonous as how men are taught bravado and overlap, overlap, yes, lack of emotionality. And when those poisons meet, right, or the shit meets, in a marriage, there is, there's a lot of pain because no one knows how to tell the truth. No one is rewarded for talking about what's going on inside of me. I remember the first time my husband could really put into words, why he was looking at porn. And it's like, Sara, I just want to go someplace where I feel good. And it made me feel so much compassion. Because I'm like, you know what, so do I. So do I and I want it with you. And so telling the truth was such such a healing thing for both of us. But it took a long time to like excavate that out. 

Michaelann Gardner 50:38

One of the things I'm still maddest about is my fucking husband like acting like I was the problem. Like it was multiple times and he was like, well, I was married before and I had sex. So like, I'm not the issue here, you know, we go to like fucking like sex therapy and he's like, Oh, actually that was kind of helpful.I'll pay for half of it. Like what the fuck man? Like this is our sex life.This is not me.Yes.I'm still mad about it. And primarily because fine, you know how to like go down on me. Great. I'm happy for you.What are you going to tell me to my face that, you know, I feel hurt. I feel rejected.I feel sad.I want you. You don't. You've never said those words.I know that's how you feel, but you're not saying them. And so you are part of this dynamic that is making this impossible. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 51:24

Yeah. When are you going to tell me why you're not able to get a job? Yeah. Right. When are you going to tell me how you manage to accumulate multiple six figures of debt and didn't think to tell me until a month before we get married? Yeah. And when am I going to be able to tell you why I felt like that was acceptable? Right. To move forward in that kind of a financial situation. There's just multiple layers of truth telling that don't happen because there's no connection to ourselves. There's only the shame of knowing that something that we're doing or something that has happened is outside of the lines of the prescribed roles and rules that we are supposed to be inhabiting and living. And then it just fucks everything up and there's so much pain. 

Michaelann Gardner 52:12

And I think it shows up in the body and it shows up in the sex. And I mean, if people can have great sex and be super dysfunctional for sure. But I mean, that was my experience too, is like, it's just like the truth will out and it will usually come out like through, like through the body. Like I can say lots of things and I can pretend lots of things. But when I'm in that bed with you, like she's like, no. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 52:38

That's right. And you write about that, you say, I couldn't say no. So my body said no for me. Yeah. And I wonder when you think about the incidence of, you know, autoimmune disorder, 80%, if you have 100 people who are diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder, 80 of them are women. 

Michaelann Gardner 52:54

I know. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 52:55

And the way our hips hurt and our shoulders hurt and our neck hurt and our back hurt, it shows up in the body. 

Michaelann Gardner 53:02

I know I really do believe it. And I believe it just from my like actual research and the neurological origins of pain, like, I mean, pain is, it is like neurons firing, it's in the body, but it's also the way, like I said at the beginning, like, it's how you are observing and experiencing something, you know, there's this objectiveness to it.It's just, yeah. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 53:22

And so I think it's only fitting that you talk about a lot of your healing happening in your body about being able to not only have sexual experiences that feel very enjoyable to you, but this is the part that I identified so much with that I wanted to read. I want to lean into all the luscious frantic profanity of sex with you. I want the letting go of rules and what's right. I want profanity.I want taboo, but also I deeply want tenderness. The way you might afterwards wrap me in a quilt. The way you might be grateful to some otherworldly power that we are here together alone. 

Michaelann Gardner 54:05

Yeah, I moved into the apartment I'm currently in in 2020. I was married for five years. I lived in this apartment for five years.I'm moving out this week, this month. The risk of really adding myself as a slut. Like I brought so many men back here, you know? And I'm joking about the slut thing because it was just, it was lovely. Some of them were jerks and some of them I never saw again. And some of them are like my closest friends now, you know? And I have a part in my dedication or my acknowledgement sets for a few of them in particular who really changed me just by like loving me well and slowing down with me. And like you just can't masturbate enough to do that kind of healing work, right? You have to really do it with another person who genuinely cares about you more than about the outcome. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 55:00

That's such an interesting comment. I never thought about that. But if we as mammals are meant to exist in relationship to each other, you're right. That ultimate healing happened first in your body and then had to be shared in relationship with another person to feel really, really complete. You can't masturbate enough. Let's put that on a t-shirt. 

Michaelann Gardner 55:25

Wisdom from Michael A. Gardner. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 55:30

Well, Michaelann, I just can't say it enough. I loved your book. It is about sex. It is about God. It is about religion and disordered eating and chronic pain and divorce, but it's also about finding your hunger and desire and letting that be the guide that guides you out into a promised land that I think... I'll speak for both of us here and you correct me if I'm wrong. It looks a little different than we tho ught. It was going to look like you are divorced. My husband and I managed to stay married. It's 26 going on, 27 years. And the running joke is that's only because we never wanted to get divorced at the same time. But the healing and the way that your hunger and desire led you out, the wisdom that it was for you, it just comes through so clearly in these pages. And I, for one, if you wrote this book for no one else, well, he wrote it for you, I'm sure, but you also wrote it for me. And I'm just so incredibly grateful that you would put into words some of the things that I had just never connected and thought of before. So thank you. 

Michaelann Gardner 56:43

Yeah, it's very touching. It's very touching for me.I, um, yeah, I had someone, a BYU professor commented, he's like, say, yeah, like your story was like, very, like, it was very specific to you. And I was like, a man, male, man, whatever. I mean, I know what he means, but I actually did try to go into the details, right? To not make it generic. But I don't think you even have to be Mormon or even religious. I mean, my best friend is raised secular. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 57:12

Mm-hmm. 

Michaelann Gardner 57:13

And she and I have shocking parallel experiences. It's very costly to tell the truth, like you were saying, and to follow it out. I wish it for everybody, like I do. And if the story illuminates what that journey can be like, it maybe eases it for someone else, even if it's just like affirmation, you know? Yeah, it was a hard project. It was like four years, you know? And I revised a lot and I struggled a lot through and I questioned a lot about should even be saying this out loud, right? Like, I mean, I have a whole thing where I talk, I like go into detail about the first time I masturbated and like, that's highly personal. But at the end of the day, it's the truth, right? It's the truth. And I knew that the truth sets you free and it sets other people free. And I'm really so grateful, like any of the word that I want, but just grateful that it touched you. It means a lot, thank you. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 58:14

Absolutely. Michaelann Gardner, thank you. Her book is Sovereign and you can get it on Amazon. And thank you so much for being with me.

Michaelann Gardner 58:26

Yeah, thanks Sara.

Episode 125 - What I'm Learning About Joy, Rest, and Pleasure

In the self-help space, it’s easy to assume someone else has it all together. The truth is, nobody does. While I have some answers—and I certainly can provide help to stop people-pleasing—I’m still learning, too. Today, I’m sharing recent changes and insights from my own life to offer an honest look at the messy, yet beautiful, journey of healing—and to remind you that joy, grief, and desire can all coexist. Here’s what I cover:

• How religious scriptures shaped my beliefs about worthiness–and how I’ve grown into a deeper sense of connection

• Why rest, joy, pleasure, and loving your f*cking life are powerful acts of resistance

• Why I stepped away from social media and how it has allowed me to show up more fully in my life

• How retreating to my love of fiction provided me with a soul-deep relief

• How I have become more fully present in my body and my power through pleasure

• How I learned that “Am I enough?” was never the right question to ask

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What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

00:58

I'm recording this just a couple days after I turned 52, which just sounds bonkers to say. I don't know, I do feel like I'm in my early 40s. But I joked with my daughter, I'm just going to tell people I just turned 40 12. 

 01:15

Because 52 just sounds wild. But I wanted to take a minute and reflect for a couple of reasons. Number one, in this self help space that we are in together, it is really easy to look at someone else and think that they have all the answers, have it all together. 

 01:36

And although I do have some answers, and I definitely can help you with your people pleasing. I am still growing and learning and wanted to just share not only some of the changes that I've seen in my own life, but the work that I am still doing, because I think what I am most interested in is a community of women who are healing and sharing together and what that means is we are sharing and we are being vulnerable and letting the people in our community kind of into some of the intimate details of our lives and so I want to do that with you. 

 02:18

One of the things that I noticed as I was just reflecting this morning is that although I am not a practicing member of the LDS or Mormon faith anymore, I in some ways will always be Mormon. I think it's just you know in there so deeply and I used to really obsess about two types of scriptures. 

 02:42

The Mormons have two additional books of scripture in addition to the Bible. It is believed that Joseph Smith who founded Mormonism also received a book of scripture called the Book of Mormon and another book called the Doctrine and Covenants. 

 02:59

there are scriptures throughout both of those books that really talk about being tested and having to endure to the end and that you had to try very, very, very hard every single day in order to qualify for salvation, quote unquote, you know, heaven, however you think about that. 

 03:20

And so I used to really think about those scriptures a lot. I would be filled with sometimes dread and anxiety, thinking, for example, there's a scripture in the Book of Mormon that says, you are saved by faith after all you can do. 

 03:37

And I just always used to think like, what is all I can do? Like, of course, I can always do more. Of course, there's other ways that I'm not being, you know, perfect or good. I just did an interview a couple days ago with Michael Ann Gardner, that's going to come out at some point around this episode. 

 03:54

And she was also a member of the same religious group. And we talked about how we, we couldn't win at a lot of things, but we could win at purity, we could win at keeping the rules. And so I think for some of us in organized religion, that's, that's the way that we are fawning for God, right? 

 04:18

We are fawning F-A-W-N or trying to please God all the time. And then it was just confirmed to me when I would read these scriptures that I was not enough, that I had not done enough, that I was not giving enough, loving enough, self-sacrificing enough. 

 04:35

And it created a constant kind of hum of anxiety for me that I even experienced after not going to church anymore. And that is when I realized that it was also connected to not just religion, but patriarchy and growing up in a, you know, Western patriarchal society where there There is this kind of constant drumbeat for a lot of us in our minds of like more, more, more. 

 05:06

I used to envision it and talk about it. If you can imagine, there's a donkey who's pulling a cart and in the cart, there are a bunch of things that need to be done, people that need to be served, things about me that need to be fixed, right? 

 05:22

And then there's a driver sitting in the seat of the cart, driving the donkey forward, trying to make progress on all of these things that are in the cart. I was both the driver and the donkey. And so that constant like whipping the donkey more, more, just do a little bit more, try a little bit harder, be a little better, give a little more, serve a little more, be a little more was really the kind of the constant undercurrent of my life with all of these scriptures that I would read that just told me basically you have to try really, really hard every single day. And if you disappoint God, it has eternal consequences. And so I talk about it now, and it's kind of like a little bit of an out of body experience. But in that time, I was drawn to that type of like exact obedience. 

 06:28

That's another that was just constantly out of my reach. And it just felt like that's what life was supposed to be like this constant striving. And one of the things that I recognize is that I just never think about that anymore. 

 06:45

I never worry about my worthiness. I never worry if I'm good enough. I never it's like not even the right question. It was rigged from the beginning. That was never the right question to be asking the right question to be asking is who am I? 

 07:01

And what do I want? What fills me with joy? What inspires me to be the kind of person that I think is important to be in the world? And how do I find and do those things? How do I become more me? How do I connect more deeply to who I am? 

 07:20

And what, you know, lights me up from the inside? And so that is I'm so grateful for that growth. It's come through coaching, it's come through lots of attention to the parts of me that were carrying the shame and the fear of rejection and the worthiness, the worthiness issue or feeling lack of worthiness, but it is resulted in a real sense of deep connection. 

 07:53

And I never knew that I was disconnected from myself. that whole time. But now that I am so deeply connected and can show up for myself so completely, oh man, I just look back at that young girl, young woman who was just so desperate to feel like she was enough with so much compassion. 

 08:19

And I can have such gratitude now that that's just not, it's no longer an issue. Now what I feel really compelled by is those questions. Who am I? What do I want? What lights me up? What fills me with joy and pleasure and happiness and knowledge and connection with others? 

 08:42

I'm still obsessed with the second type of scripture that I was really drawn to. And those were scriptures about justice that inspired hope. there were scriptures that spoke about a world that God had created that had enough. 

 09:02

One of the scriptures I'm thinking of right now it says, for the world is full and there is enough and to spare. And how deeply I longed to live in a world that reflected what I thought God had already created for us. 

 09:22

And to be transparent, I still believe in Jesus. I believe in what he did and said when he was alive. I think it was a real thing that happened. I don't know that I believe in all of it. I haven't pulled it apart really completely, but I still believe that the world we live in has enough and that there is enough to spare. 

 09:45

And there were scriptures that talked about how the poor and needy should be cared for. And they made me deeply long for that world for me and for others. And so one of the ways in which I have learned to take care of myself this year is by balancing that desire for a world where we all live in peace with the reality of the world that we live in a little bit better. 

 10:17

It used to be almost overwhelming to me to feel the grief of the world. I didn't understand why I got to lay down in a warm bed with enough food and enough love. And the world I saw around me for so many other people was so full of lack and terror and violence and no way to really fix that. 

 10:47

It filled me with a helplessness and a hopelessness that really was this kind of pit of despair that I fell in every single day, especially on social media. And so in January, I made the choice to leave social media, not completely. 

 11:05

I still post some things for work, but I deleted it from my phone, really out of self preservation because it just pulled me into this pit every single day from the constant exposure. And I just want to remind all of us, our brains and our nervous systems are not made to take the constant punches of all that is going on in the world around us. 

 11:35

Doesn't matter which country you live in. It doesn't matter if you're in the United States where we are undergoing some significant threats to democracy and our way of life. Or if you're in a different country where you're facing different threats in your own family and worldwide. We are all living with an unprecedented amount of information and it just felt like I couldn't show up for the people that I was responsible for. And I felt a tremendous sense of guilt. 

 12:09

It felt in the beginning like I was turning away or being a bad person or putting my head in the sand and I was hiding behind my privilege. But what I soon came to realize is that the relief I felt from being able to not face that onslaught every day allowed me to show up for the people in my life that were depending on me, my family, my clients, my friends, myself, and to regroup. 

 12:38

I don't know that I'd ever given myself that kind of rest and I really did it in two ways by going off social media and I retreated into fiction. I retreated into audiobooks. I think I've read or listened to something like 48 audiobooks since the beginning of the year and that's an incredible number because it's just a lot which I've loved on my walks when I'm working out, when I'm driving in the car. 

 13:04

But I'd always read self-help, right? There was always something about me that needed attention, that needed to be fixed, some kind of new thing I should learn to better help my clients. And so just giving myself, I loved fiction and fantasy when I was growing up. 

 13:20

I loved it. And to be able to retreat back into what felt like those old friends, I cannot tell you the soul deep relief that it provided for me. And sometimes that retreat is imperative. Stepping back allowed me to show up for the people in my real life that I am able to serve and help and to be resourceful about how I could help people who were not in my immediate sphere, how I could donate, how I could have conversations, how I could show up for the worldwide systemic injustice that we are still facing in so many regions of the world, because that still deeply, deeply matters to me. 

 14:11

The process is not over, right? I have downloaded one social media app on my phone again, and I'm just kind of testing it out. I'm still learning how to hold the incredible complexity of the world we live in today and stay functional. 

 14:26

I'm still learning how to honor what my soul needs and what the world needs and how I want to show up for those issues because they still deeply matter to me. I still deeply long to live in a world where everyone has what they need. 

 14:46

A couple weeks ago, a poet that I dearly love and have followed passed away from ovarian cancer. Their name was Andrea Gibson. And her poetry, it's like I found a language for so many of the experiences and feelings that I couldn't yet put into words. 

 15:07

And that is such, that's just such an incredible gift when that happens. And when they passed away, one of the last things that they said was, I fucking loved my life. And I have thought about that phrase every day since I read it in the announcement of their passing. 

 15:26

And that's how I feel about my life. And I learned so much of that by watching Andrea with cancer and chemo treatments, and being a queer artist, just funnel joy into their own life, even with everything that was hard. 

 15:48

And that was a really significant lesson. Because with everything that is going on in the world, to have joy is resistance, to rest is resistance, to gather those around you that you love, and to have happiness and pleasure, and a good time is resistance. 

 16:10

And it fills our lives, it fills our cups in such an important way. And I've learned that the guilt that I used to feel around that was because I just didn't understand that it's another way to show up in resistance to the people who want to make life less just, and less fair, who want to funnel more resources to those who already have plenty and away from those who need. 

 16:41

And that has been a really big and beautiful lesson. And I hope to just carry that line. I fucking love my life with me as the litmus test. Not that it should always be happy and good. Not that bad things should never happen. 

 16:58

But what I learned from Andrea is that even when bad things are happening, even when painful things are happening, even when grief is present, joy is always there. Happiness, pleasure, rest, renewal, presence can also still be there. 

 17:19

And then lastly, I want to share that one of the ways that I am really becoming more fully present in my body and in my power and in my pleasure is through sexual pleasure. It has been such a taboo for so many years for women in general, for religious women in particular, and I think for Mormons in really particular particular Mormon women to talk about wanting sexual pleasure. And it's been such a journey for me. If you go back to the beginning episodes that I did, I did an interview with Danielle Savory, who is a friend and fellow coach. 

 18:00

And she coaches women around sexual intimacy. And what she told me during that interview, I understood the word she was saying, she said, a woman who can speak up for what she wants in sexual intimacy has access to a kind of power that is rare. 

 18:19

That is not like regular power. That's a bad paraphrase. You'll have to go back and listen to that episode because it's so good. I understood the words she said, but I didn't really understand them. And as I have explored this new layer of embodiment of really being in my body during sex, asking for what I want, asking is so it was so hard in the beginning, think about how difficult it is for some of us who are, you know, really working with the discomfort of having and sharing our own needs to even ask the waiter to change out some aspect of our meal, like this is what we don't even know, right. And I find that some of us have a really hard time asking people we don't know for things, but we can ask people we do know very easily. 

 19:12

And sometimes it's reversed. I had no problem asking, you know, strangers and people that I had no connection to, to meet a need or to help me with something. And it was in my relationship with my husband that I found it the hardest to let him see this part of me that wanted pleasure that wanted to show up that wanted specific things, especially with all of the Mormon programming, and the patriarchal programming about how women should not be like there's a very particular kind of woman who is sexual and she's a slut. 

 19:46

She's a whore. And how these ideas that we are supposed to still be kind of pure and virtuous, but also sexy, like pulling that apart has been one of the greatest journeys of my life. And going from this idea of sex as like holy and pure and clean to what sex really is, it's, it can be awkward, it can be messy, it can be dirty, it can be uncomfortable, really has been just so incredible for me. 

 20:28

I talk about this a little bit in another episode I did with Danielle about dying for sex, the Hulu show that meant so much to me because it is about a woman. learning to say what she wants. Yes, it's about sex, but it's also not. 

 20:44

Now, she's doing all of this learning with a deadline because in the Hulu show, she knows she's dying. And I don't know that I'm dying right now of anything specifically, but I do know we are all dying. 

 21:01

And so when I think about the timeline that I'm on, it doesn't create pressure, it creates opportunity. And I want to share that for a couple of reasons. Number one, I just want to take the taboo off this whole sexual pleasure subject for women. 

 21:19

I want to be able to talk about it openly and honestly. And I want to share it in case. And the thing is, I know it's not a case. I know that there are women listening to this. And they hear other women, maybe me in this episode talking about going after sexual pleasure. 

 21:35

And something inside of you is like, I want that. I think I want that. I want to be able to be admired. I want to be able to be desired. And I want to have desire for a partner, a lover. And I just want to share that it's beautiful. 

 21:52

And it's just as empowering as Danielle said. And I look forward to what this next phase looks like for me with my husband. I'm not asking am I enough anymore because that was never the right question. 

 22:06

And it's not the right question for you either. I have found ways to show up for myself, to hold grief and joy at the same time, to step back when I need to, and to claim my body and pleasure in a new way. 

 22:20

And so I would just invite you to think about where are you still holding on to something, ideas or beliefs from old systems, parents who told you things that still hurt to think about a teacher, a system, maybe religious. 

 22:37

And where can you step back? and retreat and rest? And where can you claim more joy and pleasure? If anything that I've talked about resonates with you, if any of the themes I've touched on are also showing up in your own life, I would love a DM as a birthday present. 

 22:58

I love to connect with people who listen to the podcast. And especially when we're connecting about similar themes, it's always so much fun. So you can always email me sara@sarafisk.coach. And I would just love to hear about your experience as well. 

 23:12

Last thing I want to let you know is that Stop People Pleasing is still open because it is a fantastic program when we have lots of different experiences and women. And I'm still waiting for a few of you to join who I know are out there listening. 

 23:27

It's an incredible opportunity to do this work in a wonderful, amazing group of women. And so if you were curious at all about what your life could look like without people pleasing, without codependency, without worrying if you are enough, without worrying if you are too much, I would love to talk to you. 

 23:47

Use the link in the show notes or in any of my social media platforms to set up a time to talk. And I'll talk to you soon.

Episode 124 - How Did I Get Stuck and How Do I Get Unstuck?

I hear people use the word “stuck” all the time to describe problems or situations, but what does it really mean? You might feel stuck in a relationship you want to change but don’t know how, or caught in a pattern you keep repeating even when it no longer feels good. I’ve been reflecting on what it really means to be stuck—not just to understand it better, but to find language and tools that actually help. In this episode, I’m sharing what I’ve discovered to offer you deeper context around the feeling of being stuck and what you can do about it. Here’s what I cover:

• Why feeling stuck in people-pleasing isn’t your fault

• How feeling stuck in one area can have a big impact on your life overall

• The insight from Esther Perel that shaped my thinking on this topic

• Why stuck systems have all stability and no change and what we need instead

• The key to change: teaching your parts that it’s safe to feel a little unsafe

• How to begin experimenting with authenticity in small, safe ways

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:59

One of the words that I hear a lot from clients is the word stuck. It's how they describe the problem that they want to solve or the thing that they think is wrong.

01:08

They feel stuck in relationships that they want to change, but they don't know how they feel stuck in patterns where they're just repeating the same behavior over and over and over again. They say things like, you know, I don't know how to change this.

01:24

I don't know how to get a certain outcome. I don't know how to move forward. I don't know how to make the changes that I want to make. And they can feel stuck just in one relationship or in one particular situation, or it can feel like it's happening everywhere.

01:39

Like it's kind of more global in their lives. And when I hear something a lot, it gets my attention. And so I've been studying stuck in an effort not only to better understand it, but to develop some tools or a way of talking about it that is helpful.

01:57

And so I'm going to float some of these things that I've been thinking about by you today. I would love to hear your feedback. I would love to hear how you experience this feeling of stuckness. And if any of these ideas resonate for you, I would love to hear.

02:12

So what has shaped my thinking about this really more than anything else is something that I read from Esther Perel that really kind of opened this up for me. And it really wasn't what I was thinking.

02:27

Esther Perel says that when stability becomes too rigid, that is the feeling of being stuck. Isn't that cool? It just, it really kind of reframes it for me because stability is something that every single human wants.

02:47

We want predictability, we want stability, we want to know what's going to happen. And people pleasing is a form of stability. It is a way that we make other people seem to be happy with us. It's the way that a lot of us erase conflict or drama that can feel very chaotic, very unpredictable.

03:10

It's the way that we know that we can calm people down or we can give them what they want so that they have a predictable opinion of us. Sara's good, Sara's helpful, Sara is giving, Sara is kind and it's a way that we create a very clear role for ourselves in situations, in other people's lives.

03:36

We know exactly what's expected of us and we deliver the thing that is expected and we get the outcome that feels very predictable to us. It's a really brilliant adaptation for creating stability. If you think for just a minute through a relationship or a situation where you feel stuck, I want you to look at how you have used people pleasing to create stability in that relationship where you are the one who feels the internal conflict,

04:14

the internal drama, the internal uncomfortable emotions and you feel them because you are sparing other people from feeling them by pleasing them. It's really fascinating and for just a second, I want you to appreciate your ability to create stability and predictability, which is what humans need by people pleasing.

04:39

Appreciating it isn't the same as saying you want to stay in this behavior pattern, right? We can appreciate the fact that as young children, we learned how to do this and we can also appreciate what a benefit it was to us, how it kept us safe, how it provided this stability and

04:59

predictability that we want as humans, and we can also want to change it. So for just a moment, marvel with me at the amazing ability that humans have to find and create predictability and stability, especially by people pleasing.

05:16

The problem is that as we grow up, this stability becomes rigid. It's actually rigid control. We're trying to control other people's emotions and reactions by managing our behavior, right? We're trying to keep them on an even footing, not upsetting them by taking all of kind of the chaos and drama into our own bodies.

05:44

We are inadvertently preventing real intimacy by not showing our true selves, and that's the real cost of this rigid control is that when we are so focused on stability, we don't have the opportunity to show who we really are.

06:05

We don't create authentic interactions because all of our energy is focused on the stability and not on providing some of the elasticity or some of the opportunity to change, to redefine roles, to act differently, to say no when we've previously said yes.

06:28

And that stability is what ends up feeling like the box we live in. We become stuck in these boxes of patterns, these boxes of habits that used to feel safe, but now just feels suffocating. So breaking this pattern can actually feel dangerous.

06:52

I have so many women who are afraid that when they stop people pleasing, there's real danger that will happen. And I'm not talking about the actual danger of violence or abuse. That is very real, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

07:09

If you are in relationships where the cost for not people pleasing is violence or abuse, you need to people please until you can get out of that situation and out of that relationship. But for people who will not suffer violence or abuse when they stop people pleasing, it can still feel really, really dangerous because when we were young, we learned that our pleasing is what actually got us rewarded with connection, with safety, with belonging, with affection. And so the parts of us that are really oriented around keeping us safe are all very, very worried when we talk about beginning to break those patterns.

07:57

To a nervous system, chaos is almost the same as change. Change means disruption. And so we start to have worries or our parts start to worry. If I stop people pleasing, everyone's gonna leave me. I'm gonna be alone.

08:13

If I set boundaries, I'm gonna disappoint people and they'll hate me. If I say no, I'm going to be selfish and alone. Or if I show my real feelings, if I share my real opinions, I'm gonna ruin relationships.

08:28

And these are the voices of our parts that are protecting that rigid stability that we've created because it's all they've ever known. They don't have a plan B for creating stability. And so what we need to be able to do is to, as the adults we are now who have different resources, different access to it.

08:54

to build skills and learn how to do things differently in a way that creates safety, we need to help our parts create that safety. And we're gonna get into that in a minute. But I want also for just a minute for you to appreciate your parts, the parts of you that have created stability by people pleasing, security and predictability.

09:17

Even though this pattern as an adult is highly uncomfortable and for a lot of women, it feels like it's killing us. Our parts believe that that is the price we have to pay for safety. It's really important to have some tenderness and some understanding for these parts.

09:39

So often women come in with judgment. What the fuck is the matter with me? I'm a 51 year old woman and I can't even voice my opinion. And so the judgment is just another layer keeping that rigid stability in place.

09:55

Because when you are judging something, you can't have the openness to create a different pattern. Judgment literally locks a behavior in place and makes it so much harder to look at different options, to get creative about what else we might do instead.

10:16

And it just becomes this huge suck of our emotional and creative energy when we get stuck judging something. So appreciating isn't again, the same as wanting to stay in the pattern, but we can appreciate the parts that learned to create stability through people pleasing.

10:37

And we can also show up for those parts as the wise, loving adult that they need to teach them something new, because that's what they need from us. Esther Perel goes on. And she teaches that systems need both stability and change to thrive.

11:02

And in a system that is stuck, you have all stability and no change, right? All predictability and none of that, like squishy, creative, elastic feeling in your life where the possibility to do something different is actually a reality.

11:21

And so if you think about those two things that we need to thrive, stability and change, the key is to teach our parts that it's safe to feel a little unsafe as we explore different ways of being in the world.

11:39

We can reassure our protective parts. I know this feels scary, but we're going to do this experiment together. We're not totally abandoning safety. We're expanding what safety might look like. So that is the attitude that we want to have toward our parts that have relied on people pleasing to create stability.

12:03

Because the truth is it does feel uncomfortable to not people please. The very first time you say something like, you know what, that doesn't work for me, but what I can do, and you don't give in right away to what someone else wants from you, but you suggest something else, your heart's going to be pounding.

12:23

There is going to be some anxiety in your system because we are changing the rigidity. We're changing the thing that got us the predictable outcome of people liking us because we always say yes. So after we have some compassion and some appreciation for what our parts have helped us to create, we then help the part understand, you know what, I'm going to be with you.

12:53

And it's actually safe to feel unsafe together. I'm going to be with you the whole time. If you're scared, I'm just going to feel it with you. If you're anxious, I'm going to feel it with you. If it's frustrating because it didn't work out the way we wanted, I'm just going to feel it with you.

13:10

That is the loving lens that we can look at our parts through because we need them to trust us to be able to move forward in a different way. So I want you to just spend a little bit of time over the next couple of weeks recognizing where you feel stuck.

13:33

And just reminding yourself all that's happened is the stability that I created has just gone rigid here. That's all that happened. I'm not bad. I can figure out how to get out of this. I'm going to be able to figure this out.

13:46

All that's happened is all of that predictability and security that I needed so much when I was young. And I depended on other people to help keep me safe, it's gone rigid. That's it. And together, we're going to be able to create something new.

14:02

So notice where you have some of those rigid patterns. For a lot of us, it's where we automatically say yes without thinking, or we automatically shove down our opinion, or we let our needs go unspoken.

14:17

It's where we pretend that we're fine when we're not. It's where we armor up for safety instead of letting our more tender and vulnerable parts be seen by people who are safe to show them to. And so just noticing, where do I feel stuck?

14:32

And then starting with a small change. And letting your parts know, OK, here's what we're going to do. Instead of saying yes automatically, we're going to start to say, you know what? I need to think about it, and I'll get back to you.

14:46

That small change. might feel very safe for some people, might feel very dangerous for others. The point is to start with a change that feels doable and a little stretchy, because what we want our parts to understand is that it's safe to feel unsafe with ourselves.

15:08

Something you might do is expressing a preference. That might be a micro change that you can make, or giving yourself a moment of real peace and rest and letting your system really take it in. Because practicing in micro ways to feel unsafe can increase your capacity for larger moments when you want to take on a bigger challenge in a higher stakes situation.

15:40

Just remember, your parts are going to feel uncomfortable with these changes, because again, that predictability that has always been so part of the way we've lived isn't there anymore. That's normal.

15:54

Just acknowledge again to these parts, I know this feels risky. We're building a new kind of safety. One of the things that happens sometimes is that other people will push back. People might be confused when you change.

16:11

They might express disappointment, they might want you to feel guilty, and this is normal because you're changing again the rules of stability that govern relationships. But their discomfort doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.

16:28

You're going to create small experiments in being your more authentic self, whatever that looks like. There is a different side of you that wants to be shown, and you're going to show that in safe relationships first, in small ways, showing your parts it's safe.

16:49

It's safe to do this. It's safe to show more of ourselves. One of the ways that I did this work personally was in my friendships. I had parts that believe that the only reason people wanted to be friends with me was because I was cheerful, I was helpful, I was always willing to give and serve and love and show up and plan things and be the life of the party and that any part of me that didn't fit that kind of menu of feelings and actions was not welcome by friends.

17:26

That they didn't really like me for me, but they liked me for this cheerful, giving person that I was. And so I hid a lot of parts of me. I hid the parts of me that were tired. I hid the parts of me that wanted to be fully seen and heard because I didn't believe that my friends really wanted to see and hear all of me.

17:56

And it felt very, very unsafe to have any kind of emotion around them, any kind of frustration that wasn't positive and cheerful and giving and loving. And so when I had a friendship where it felt safe to do that, I began to admit small things, small frustrations, small things about myself that I wasn't sure the other person was going to like or approve of.

18:29

And as I did it, I was incredibly nervous. And I had parts that I had to take good care of by saying, it's okay, I'm with you. If this feels embarrassing, we're just going to feel embarrassed. If this feels overly vulnerable, we're just going to feel that together.

18:47

Because what I wanted more was to feel like I had friendships and relationships where I could really be seen. And I had a bunch of parts telling me that that was super dangerous and we shouldn't do it.

19:02

So if you feel that tension, so did I. And it's very, very, very, very real. The terror of being fully seen and heard in my friendships was real. And also the desire to be fully seen and heard in my relationships was also very, very real.

19:21

And so as I experimented with, it's safe to feel a little bit unsafe. And I want to credit Carl Lowenthal for putting that sentence into words for me. And that sentence has meant a lot to me because it's opened up places in my life where it is safe to feel a little more unsafe.

19:40

And as we're deconstructing stuckness, there is going to be a feeling of unsafe and that's okay because you can feel it with your parts. There were moments when I was showing myself in my friendships that it did feel unsafe, but I was rewarded with two things.

20:02

Number one, the sense that I could create safety for myself. When I was able to show up for me and just feel whatever I needed to feel, it felt so good. It felt like the type of comfort and witnessing and hearing that I needed, that I didn't get, and it was something that I could provide for myself.

20:28

There were some friendships where I didn't get the reaction that I wanted and I was able to just feel the disappointment or feel the sadness of that. And the second thing that it got me or that it created was that I have relationships where as I showed up vulnerably, as I showed up letting more of myself be seen, it deepened the relationship vulnerability and intimacy.

20:54

And I discovered that I have relationships that can handle my full range of emotions. I have people who will love every part of me. I can not only take care of my parts, but other people will help me take care of them as well.

21:12

Being stuck in people pleasing, it's not our fault. It's literally not your fault. It's the stability that we created the only way we knew how. And now we get to choose a different kind of stability that we create as adults for ourselves and that we can enjoy more of in our relationships.

21:35

And this is the balance that we're looking for, right? It's a balance of some stability and some flexibility. Most of the time what we are afraid of is going too far into flexibility. So that feels like chaos, right?

21:51

So that nothing is predictable, nothing feels stable. And that's kind of the worst case scenario that our parts are going to be afraid of. But remember those parts are young and the context that they were created in doesn't exist anymore.

22:06

They now have us adults who can be generous in our tenderness with them, who can learn new skills, who can learn new ways of being in the world, and who can take care of our parts. And so we can actually have both.

22:26

We can have stability and flexibility. We can have freedom to grow and change without losing the connection, the predictable, loving belonging that we also need. We can make decisions based on flexibility and not just needing stability.

22:48

And that is what life can look like when we are not stuck. It's what I want for all of us. We deserve relationships and a life that can handle the real us, right? Last couple of episodes have been about lying.

23:06

When we stop lying, it can feel dangerous, right? When we start telling the truth. But my hope is that this episode will give you a little bit more context for why the stuck is there and what to do about it.

23:22

If you have any questions or comments, I would love to hear about it. You deserve to be seen and heard in your relationships. And I love that we're doing this work together. I'll talk to you again next week.

Episode 123 - Living with ADHD and Letting Go of Good Girl Rules with Kristen Carder

Living with ADHD means it doesn’t disappear once you find success–you can be kind, loving, respectful and still show up with your ADHD when you connect with yourself and take accountability. Today, I’m bringing you a conversation from the I Have ADHD podcast, where I was interviewed by Kristen Carder. We talk about my journey of being diagnosed with ADHD in midlife, the relationship between neurodivergence and people-pleasing, and how I became an ex-good girl. Here’s what we cover:

• How “ADHD brain” can impact your life even when you have good intentions

• How my ADHD diagnosis later in life brought both clarity and grief

• My approach to seeking help managing perimenopause

• Why self-abandonment is at the heart of people-pleasing

• What it truly means to be an ex-good girl and how to reclaim your voice

Find Kristen here:

https://ihaveadhd.com/

https://ihaveadhd.com/podcast/

https://www.instagram.com/i.have.adhd.podcast/

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Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:02

Welcome to the Ex Good Girl podcast, the place where people pleasers, perfectionists, and overgivers come to unlearn the good girl rules that you thought were making you good, but now you can see you're actually just keeping you small. If you've spent your life being unable to say no, putting everyone else's needs and feelings above your own, constantly seeking external approval or avoiding conflict to make others feel comfortable, if guilt and resentment feel like a constant weight in your life, it is time to learn to knock that shit off. Every episode we dive into the stories, skills, and strategies that you need to stop shrinking, start speaking up, and to live a life that is authentically and unapologetically yours, while also deepening the connection and vulnerability in the relationships that matter to you. I'm glad you're here, let's jump in.

Kristin Carder 00:59

Hey, what's up? This is Kristin Carder, and you're listening to the I Have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, I am caffeinated, I am regulated, and I am ready to roll. I am here today with somebody who is very special to me, someone who is near and dear to my heart, Sara Fisk. I originally met her when she trained me as a coach in a coach training program that I was involved in in 2021, I believe. I just connected with her so much and was so lucky to be able to circle back, reconnect, and she is now diagnosed with ADHD. I just am so glad that she's here today to share her story. She helps people pleasers. Y'all, if you know one thing about having ADHD, it oftentimes leads us to be people pleasers. I'm so glad that she's here to share her wisdom with us, Sara. Thank you for coming.

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:57

Well, you know, I'd go anywhere with you. So this is an easy yes, and I'm just really grateful. I knew that you were an ADHD coach back when we met. Little did I know that I would be consuming your podcast, listening to everything you said within just a few short years. And you are such just a welcoming, open, nonjudgmental space. In fact, some of the things you say, I'm like, oh, no, no, I think we should be judging that. And you're like, no, no, no, we shouldn't be judging that. I'm like, oh, okay. Let's try it your way. And it feels better. It feels a little better, doesn't it? It feels better. It feels like a couple of weeks ago, I heard you say on a podcast, like, listen, I'm just the last minute person. I'm going to get it done last minute. That's just how I do it. And I've stopped making myself trying to block my calendar so that I get it done. And she does before. And I told some people I work with too, like, listen, it's going to get done. It's going to get done last minute. And that's just how we're going to do it now. So thank you for that.

Kristin Carder 02:59

I love it. Sara, I have to tell everyone of our first meeting because it is the most ADHD experience probably of my life. I signed up for a coach training certification. I was pumped. I was committed. I wanted to be there. I was prepared. I got all my materials. Like I was all in, so fully all in. And I hop on the Zoom. I'm actually like ready early, but I hop on the Zoom at like two minutes before the hour and I hop on and what's happening? First of all, you are my instructor. So I hop on to see your face and nine other people who are in my cohort. And I realize mother effer, she's wrapping up the class. It is not the beginning of the class. She's saying goodbye to everyone. And I am just like, why? Why? Why does the ADHD brain work like an ADHD brain? And why do I have to have an ADHD brain? And why do I have to embarrass myself? My first class, I'm so committed. I'm so all in. I'm so like, I'm already coaching. I already feel like I have so much to offer. And I show up at 2.58 thinking it started at three. No, no. What was that experience like for you? Because that was one of the worst moments of my life.

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:29

Fascinating for me because you pop on and you're adorable and I'm like hi and yeah we're wrapping up and you're fine like it's fine yes you missed the first day but there's a recording no worries you're fine like it was not a big deal at all to me and I later saw confirmed all those things you were 100% in you were a hundred percent committed you were a hundred percent prepared you were already coaching and had some amazing skills and and presents to share with the class and so it just it was just like nothing on my end I would not have even remembered that if you had not brought it up but can I please tell like my side of a different story when you might because it's because again it does it's not a measurement of my commitment and of our commitment and our readiness and our willingness because you hired me to come in and train some coaches in a coaching program that you offer which is brilliant by the way and the first time okay the first time I totally missed it I just completely missed it because it was at the wrong time on my calendar and then somehow the second makeup meeting was also at the wrong time on my brains I I don't understand how it happened and so you call me and I am pulling weeds in my backyard so confident to mind that I have a full other hour pulling some weeds I'm hot I'm sweaty and the first words out of my my mouth is am I doing it again and you're like yeah honey you're doing it again so I run in somehow my brain is able to get me on zoom I don't even remember like seriously can we marvel at that I had that's amazing I had to find the email I had to enter the username the passcode all of it call me and I remember telling myself calm down calm down calm down calm down and then I get on there's like nine smiling faces yep and I'm hot and sweaty in a tank top I'm even remember what my hair looked like it would be crazy to go look at that was cute it was up in like a top knot and what I tell everyone is today you get to see how a coach recovers when the session does not start as it should and as you want it to and so you were generous and gracious and I really just it was such a beautiful thing to be held by that community it's like of course we've all done this I wanted I you know part of being a good girl is just profuse apologizing apologize apologize apologize apologize trying to make it better and I instantly was like I don't have to do that here they get it I don't have to do that here

Kristin Carder 07:20

And that is one of the main benefits of being surrounded by neurodivergent people, right? Is like at least having a friend, a community, like somebody that can share that experience and be like, you're good, you're fine. You don't have to apologize.

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:36

And so you get that experience with the community, but for me, what it's also done is kind of shown the light on when I do feel like I have to do this. And like, why do I have to profusely apologize to you? Like I shouldn't, I shouldn't have to do this because this is just a neurodiverse thing that I'm not doing on purpose. And so I apologize for being here late. Let's get started. And that's it.

Kristin Carder 07:59

Oh, I just want to reflect to you. Also mirror back to me and to everyone. Like you can be warm, loving, kind, respectful, successful with ADHD and still show up with ADHD. Like it doesn't go away when you have success. Like when you're hired to do something, it doesn't go away. But to be able to connect with yourself, connect with others, take responsibility and accountability and just move forward, let's go. That is a skill that we can all learn and you've modeled that really beautifully.

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:41

I think having the experience inside ADHD communities and in particular yours, when that kind of understanding is modeled and it's so missing in other places, I think one of the skills that I've been able to do is just, if I explain, you're going to notice, if I'm with a non-ADHD community, I'll say, okay, you're going to notice my brain taking a little more time to figure this out, and I just need a second. And I have found that if I just say it, like, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed right now.I'm going to need a few minutes. Without apologizing, I can create some of that compassion for myself that is so easily accessible in ADHD communities, and I can take it with me into some of the places where there isn't that same compassion.

Kristin Carder 09:30

And now a word from our sponsor. Hey, Kristen here. I'm the host of this podcast, an ADHD expert and a certified life coach who's helped hundreds of adults with ADHD understand their unique brains and make real changes in their lives. If you're not sure what a life coach is, let me tell you a life coach is someone who helps you achieve your goals. Like a personal trainer for your life, a life coach is a guide who holds your hand along the way as you take baby step after baby step to accomplish the things that you want to accomplish. A good life coach is a trained expert who knows how to look at situations, all situations with non judgmental neutrality and offer you solutions that you've probably never even considered before. If you're being treated for your ADHD and maybe even you've done some work in therapy and you want to add to your scaffolding of support, you've got to join my group coaching program focused. Focused is where functional adults with ADHD surround each other with encouragement and support. And I lead the way with innovative and creative solutions to help you fully accept yourself, understand your ADHD and create the life that you've always wanted to create even with ADHD. Go to I have ADHD dot com slash focused to join. And I hope to see you in our community today. So tell us your ADHD story because we have so much to talk about today, but I think that your ADHD story is going to be so relatable. It's significant. It happened later in life, obviously, just very recently. And I think that people are really going to connect with it. So how did you come to discover that you are an adult living with ADHD?

Sara Bybee Fisk 11:25

It was two things. First of all, I had some children where I was like, oh, there might be something to look at here. And as I started looking up symptoms, as I started looking up, how does ADHD present? Because I have this child who is struggling. And this child, my son, does not have the hyperactive component of ADHD. And so it was when I saw the hyperactive list, I was like, no, that's not him. But oh, there's another type of ADHD. I didn't even know because I actually have a background in teaching school. And the hyperactive component was the only one that we ever looked for and saw. And I only had boys with that hyperactive component being diagnosed with ADHD. So it simply wasn't on my radar until I had a child. And then I also just noticed things are getting harder for me. Why is that? It's harder to plan ahead. It's harder to things that had been easier in the past, time management, finishing a project. Now, to be fair, I had always had piles of projects started in different places. I had always been really in adult time, had always been probably the most difficult thing for me. I was like, why does it feel like I have an hour and I really only have 15 minutes and all of a sudden I have 30 seconds. I had no ability to really regulate my time while that had always been. But I just thought that's just how my brain works. I was never curious about it. And so the combination of a child needing to be diagnosed and then seeing my own decline, I guess, in things that were easier was what kind of tipped me off.

Kristin Carder 13:16

Hmm, what was it like for you to receive a diagnosis? Like how did it feel for you to go to be evaluated and then to be told like, yup, you've got ADHD.

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:28

I was actually thrilled. It felt like someone had handed me this box and said, if you open this up, you're going to understand yourself so much better. And so it felt like a gift. It felt like a piece of myself that I had not known what to do, I had not known how to interact with. And so in the beginning, it definitely felt like a gift. And then it doesn't feel so much like a gift anymore.

Kristin Carder 14:02

What do you mean? Tell me about that progression.

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:06

Well, hopefully this is relatable as well. I felt like in the beginning it was, everything was positive. I was like, yes, that's me. And yes, that's me. And yes, and yes. And it just felt so like, so self-affirming. So like, oh, that thing you do, it isn't like a bad thing or like your fault. So all of that felt like liberating and really full of just that unique joy of like getting to know yourself better. And then fast forward. And I think I'm in the stage now where it's like, okay, we don't want to live like this, right? And I have to just also name, I'm 50. And about in the last six months, whatever estrogen I had like barely hanging on, helping to do the job is gone. And so about in the last three months, it felt like my brain has hit an actual like wall, like trying to squeeze water out of a rock on days when I'm trying to work and do things. And so it's gotten markedly different, more difficult in the past. And so then I was like, okay, now we have to do something about it. And I have been kind of dabbling with a couple of different non-stimulate medications. I started taking them seriously. And you know what this first phase it's like, it's like, try this and it doesn't work. And it's just like a week of side effects. And then you try this and it doesn't work. And it's just like a week of side effects. And so I've gone through all of the non-stimulants and I have what I think is a healthy, I don't want to say fear, but I think a healthy anxiety around stimulants at all. I understand they're very powerful and that they do what they're supposed to do. And there are other things to be aware of as well. And so when my psychiatric nurse wanted me to get an EKG before starting Adderall, and I like that. And I'm like, okay, now this is serious. We're like testing my heart, okay. But I think the challenge, and I think what for me has actually brought grief is that my body is not performing. My brain is not performing the way it used to and there's sadness there. And I think the first stage of like, oh my gosh, this is me, I love it. This is self-knowledge and self-connection and self-compassion. I think the grief also belongs. It's just not, it's not something that, anyone prepares you for. Certainly at my psychiatric nurse's office, she's doing her job of getting me medicated and she's not talking to me about like my feelings and my, and the grief of like loss, like the loss of function, the loss of, I used to be a person who could just do that. Is a very real part of this as well.

Kristin Carder 17:18

So do you believe that is an ADHD component or is that more like midlife estrogen depletion, perimenopause slash menopause stuff? Like where, what are your thoughts about that?

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:32

I'm gonna say it's probably both. Yeah. Because I don't have an ADHD experience that is separate from perimenopause, I can't really say for sure. I know that perimenopause is its own grief because it is the decline of your body from the inside out in a way that nobody prepares you for. There is not one doctor who has said to me, like, this is coming, let's prepare you for it. And I understand, you know, girl, I know all the TikTok accounts to follow in the doc. And sometimes that's what makes me mad too. I'm like, why is it me and my girlfriends and sisters solving perimenopause with a bunch of TikTok videos? But I understand that we're figuring this out at a different level. And my daughter will not hopefully have the same experience because it is a bit of a mystery. It's a bit of a mystery. And I think the grief around perimenopause is that we were not prepared for the loss. And there's something really poignant, I think, about realizing that you're grieving something that has already happened. And I was unprepared. You're unprepared for and grieving something that is already, it's already happened.

Kristin Carder 19:05

It's fascinating because the median age for women to be diagnosed is 38. That's perimenopause. And that is the onset of perimenopause for most people right around that time, which is a very little known fact. Most women don't know that by the time you're in your late 30s, that that's when you should be expecting to experience perimenopausal symptoms. And what I've heard from so many, including Dr. Patricia Quinn, who is an expert, she's been in the ADHD space for decades and decades. And there's an episode, I think it's 149, it's estrogen's impact on our symptoms for the listener who might want to go check it out. But what she says is that so many women are being diagnosed in midlife, in perimenopausal time, because while they always had ADHD, now that their estrogen is declining, and it is hardly known at all that estrogen impacts the brain so much. So the very little function that we were able to have, we were holding it together, had ADHD, but had all of these systems in place. And we're really just like holding it together while the behind the scenes was a dumpster fire. And then the estrogen depletion starts to happen. And our brain is just like, no longer can compute. Sara, do you remember, what are the ways that estrogen impacts the brain?

Sara Bybee Fisk 20:38

It protects brain cells. It like literally helps your brain build healthy cells and protect them from getting damaged. It helps with learning and memory. It boosts your ability to like keep the things present that you want to remember. It improves your mood. You're happier. You're less anxious when you have normal serotonin or excuse me, normal estrogen levels. It supports brain connections. It increases blood flow to the brain. It reduces inflammation. It helps with nerve coding like that protective myelin coat. It makes sure that messages travel quickly and clearly. When your estrogen says bye, each of those things is going to suffer.

Kristin Carder 21:21

For sure. And then not even to mention how it impacts dopamine and serotonin. And so when estrogen, so estrogen is a neurotransmitter and when we have less estrogen, then we get less dopamine, less serotonin, which means that our mood, our ability to have a reward system, like all of that, it was not great to begin with because we had ADHD or have ADHD. And then it continues to get worse and worse, which again, is why so many women are being diagnosed in their late thirties. So many, so many late thirties, forties and fifties. Like this is not uncommon as an experience for women. Now for men, it's a different story. It's a different story, but for women, it's very, very common.

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:09

The thing that just surprised me was that the minute I became a part of this ADHD community, suddenly there are like millions and millions of people with my exact same story. Like I was holding it together. I was a stay-at-home mom, so I had a job where I was task switching like every couple minutes. There was no, you know, reason for me to think that I had ADHD and all of a sudden perimenopause hits and all of it just kind of comes on at once. Yeah, this is a very, very common story, which is part of what makes me wonder like, why doesn't anyone talk about this? Why isn't anybody telling me like, hey, this might be something to take a look at.

Kristin Carder 23:01

Yeah, that part of the ADHD experience overall, I think it's just so frustrating. It's so frustrating to be a human with ADHD who is learning things on their own that their doctor never told them and maybe doesn't even know. And that feels weird. I don't want to know more than my doctor. I want my doctor to know way more than I do. I don't want to be the one bringing information to my doctor and saying like, Hey, did you know this? Did you read this book? Did you read this article? And literally my doctor looks at me with a blank face like, no, I didn't. And like, it's awkward. I don't like it.

Sara Bybee Fisk 23:42

But I had my primary care who was no longer my primary care. I brought him some tests, some information, some articles, some studies, and he said, and I quote, we don't practice that kind of medicine here. And I was like, oh, the kind that takes care of me, the kind that is responsive to science, to my symptoms, to cutting-edge studies and technology, oh, you don't do that kind of medicine here? Okay. That's all I need to know. Thanks, bye.

Kristin Carder 24:12

What does that even mean, that kind of medicine? What does that even mean?

Sara Bybee Fisk 24:19

The sense that I got in the moment, and this is just me with my intuitive knowing, is that it hit his ego a little bit. I had this information and was asking, and I didn't bring it to him like, why don't you know this idiot?I was like, could you please take a look at this? Because everything in this little bit of information that I want you to have feels like it's describing me and helped me. And I felt like I just bumped into his ego a little bit.

Kristin Carder 24:50

Bye, bye. See ya. We'll go find someone else who will care for me and for my specific needs, which is a lot of work to find. But can we just take a minute to validate like how much work it is to find someone who will listen to you, who will be open to research, who is not an idiot, who's going to validate. And of course, it's not going to be perfect, but at least we'll have the conversation.

Sara Bybee Fisk 25:22

Well, the second provider I went to basically said, listen, I'll just prescribe you whatever you want. And I was like, I'm not asking for just a prescription. I want a partner in like helping me with this. I don't, I mean, I understand that I'm going to be taking medication. Thank you, you know, for the prescription. But basically their take was I'll just prescribe you whatever you want. And you're kind of on your own to figure out if that works for you. So I was like, okay, number two, bye door. Number three, number three is where I am now, psychiatric nurse. I really like her, but like the one thing that I did mention earlier, she's not, she is very focused on like the management of symptom side and the, are you feeling better side, which is great, but I don't really feel like I can talk to her about like how sad I am about some of this and, and how like this has, this has brought up some, some grief and some, you know, and so that's why I have a coaching community. That's why I have, you know, other tools and things that I've gotten for myself or developed for myself to handle that part of it, because it does take multiple people providing pieces of the puzzle. And I think that that is where I've landed there and it's fine. Like I'm not going to get everything I need from one person. And so I, I need to find a team.

Kristin Carder 26:49

I think that's so healthy. That's such a healthy approach. Because medication is a tool, but it's definitely usually not a perfect experience. It's not gonna take care of everything. Pills don't teach skills. Pills don't teach you how to regulate your emotions and create priorities and understand yourself and process grief. They just don't. Yeah, they don't. Where else are we gonna do that? We need therapists, we need coaches, we need community. Yeah.

Sara Bybee Fisk 27:13

Every time I get to this part of talking about it, I feel tremendously grateful and also tremendous sadness for the millions of people who don't have a team, the millions of people who are not able to have access for multiple reasons to the type of care that I am able to get because I know how systems work, I know where to get the care, I know how to keep asking until I get what I need and I just always want to name that it's a privilege that I enjoy.

Kristin Carder 27:45

Yeah, that's so beautiful. So the main reason why I wanted to have you on is first of all because you've had such an influence in my life and I have just learned so much from you as a fellow coach and now colleague and you coach people pleasers and I love your podcast. It's called the Ex-Good Girl podcast. I would love for you to tell me what does it mean to you to be an Ex-Good Girl?

Sara Bybee Fisk 28:20

It means that I am always trying to maintain a connection to myself so that I can tell when I abandon myself. Because that self-abandonment is at the heart, that is people-pleasing, it's at the heart of being a good girl, always abandoning yourself for the other person, for their needs, for their wants to take care of them, to focus on them. And I'm not saying that that's bad, but when you are in ex-good girl mode, you don't have part of your energy focused on yourself. It's all outward, it's all taking care of other people, worrying about what they're thinking, wondering what they want, wondering about how can I make them like me, how can I belong here, which again has a place. But the transition away from those ex-good girl rules and the programming is that I matter too. My life matters. The way that I want to be a human and move through the world with a satisfaction level that I have in me and how I spend my time and energy, that's a big part of taking some of that outside external focus and giving it back to yourself.

Kristin Carder 29:45

What is self-abandonment? How would you describe that?

Sara Bybee Fisk 29:50

I would describe it as the feeling of not being able to choose whether I want to, let's just say, disappoint myself or disappoint someone else. I have to disappoint myself. I don't have a choice. Or whether I want to pick myself or pick someone else. I can't pick myself. I have to pick the other person. It's the feeling of not having a choice.

Kristin Carder 30:17

Mmm, that's so painful to even hear you describe it. I see so much of my former self in that.

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:25

Yeah, and it's, again, I just want to say, the fact that we learn to please each other in the relationships that we're in is not bad. It is part of having responsive and reciprocal relationships. If I'm in a friendship with you, I want to know what pleases you. I want to do things for you. I want to respond to your moods. I want to do things that contribute to a feeling of connectedness between us, and like I'm paying attention to you.And the only problem is nobody ever teaches us how to not do that, or how to regulate the energy where you get some and I get some. You get a little bit of my time and I get my time. You get my attention and I get my attention. And so the most common thing that people say to me, or women, when I'm talking about not people pleasing us, well then, I don't want to be selfish. I don't want to become like this bitchy person who only cares about themselves. And it's just always funny to me, because we're so used to living with everybody else's needs above ours. And we're like way down here. And what they think is that I want their needs to be the only needs that matter. And everybody else's needs way down here. And that's not what I'm talking about at all. It's this, it's equal. Like I matter just as much as you do. And you matter just as much as I do. And sometimes I choose your needs. And sometimes I choose my needs because I've developed the ability to connect to myself and to be observant about how I'm feeling here. And sometimes, yes, I'm gonna choose you and your needs. And sometimes I'm gonna choose me and I'm just gonna be aware of what I'm doing.

Kristin Carder 32:11

Hmm, I'm interested because I know you and I know you have a good girl story. So how did you transition from good girl, people pleasing, self-abandoning to ex-good girl, which is hysterical because you're still lovely and wonderful and kind and giving. So as you said, it's not like selfish or you prioritizing your needs above everyone else all the time, but just this like balance of your needs matter and my needs matter. But what is your good girl story? Like how did this, what were you like and how did you transition?

Sara Bybee Fisk 32:55

Well, it can't be told without acknowledging that I grew up in a very conservative religious community, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons. I lovingly call it Mormon land when I was in Mormon land. There was a lot of good there, a lot of things that were very beautiful and helpful for me. And so it's with that love that I use that term.But when you're growing up in a community, and it can be in a community, it can be a cultural community, it can be a political community where we have all the answers for you. You don't have to do the thinking. We've already done it for you. And that's just how you grow up. There's a built-in reliance on external authority to tell you, am I doing it right? And if you take the religion out of it, and if you're listening to this, and you just ask yourself, who are the external authorities I rely on to tell me I'm doing it right? We all have them, right? And especially those of us who are socialized as women, because one of the messages in that good girl socialization is, you're actually not smart enough to know this on your own. So we're just going to tell you so that you don't have to do this hard thinking. And you can just fit in and belong. And you can keep the rules. You can wear the right clothes. You can say the right things. You can have the right life so that everybody thinks you're doing it right, whether that's in a political sense, religious sense, cultural sense. So there's a built-in reliance on external authorities to tell you, you're doing it right. There's punishment when you step out of the lines. And as an oldest daughter who was relied on for help, I never had a chance. And that's the one thing that I would love if everyone could hear in the story is that my people pleasing and my being a good girl was never my fault, and it's never yours.It's not optional. And so as I grew up, and I had no idea how anxious I was, the hypervigilance of always looking around, hypervigilance and hustle, getting it done, getting it done, getting it done, being in the gifted classes and performing at the state level this. And by the way, I won the sixth grade Spelling Bee Championship. So I mean, it worked. It worked in my favor. Ask me to spell a word. I can do it. And all of those awards was how I mattered. It was how I mattered. And I'm getting a little emotional just thinking about just the endless wanting to matter. I was one of six children. We struggled a lot financially. Both my mom and dad worked. And I just really got the early sense that this machine that is my family, they're they're loving and dependable. And they're not slowing down for me. And you're not going to get recognized for doing anything less than extraordinary. And by the way, if you could just not have any needs that get in the way of just us getting through the day, that would be great. And so I'm pushing down like my big feelings, because those get me in trouble. I'm not allowed to be angry. I'm not allowed to be sad. And not allowed. That's, I get it. You get it, right? It's just like, I get it.

Sara Bybee Fisk 36:32

Like, I was sent away. Like, okay, Sara, get it. I'm trying. And I think we walk this line a lot. Like, how do we have kindness for parents and adults who do the best they can while also naming the things that were harmful. And so that's the line that you hear me kind of trying to walk right now. And so achievement, do it like lots of it always next, next, next. And the hyper vigilance of like, never being feeling able to like settle and just exist. Because somebody needs something, you could be helping someone. And that was also fueled by the religious component of like, be like Jesus, go out and serve, give. And I became the model Mormon. I did all of the things, all of them. And I loved doing all of them. And I loved the proximity to influence that it gave me because I never had authority. But as a woman who was the doing all the things, I had proximity to some, you know, to some influence. And that was as good as it got for me inside of Mormonism. And then through a lot of different contributing factors, the final, which was my daughter coming out as gay. It just didn't fit anymore. And it was, it was tragic for me. It was, you'll hear some more emotion in my voice now because the loss of the worldview, the community, the friendships, the eternal view of like, I have everything figured out and the loss of that. And I think that loss happens in lots of different communities when you realize, oh, this, there are some, there's a shadow side to this. There's a side that we don't talk about. And so it was kind of in the midst of leaving Mormon land that I became a coach and inside Mormon land, my people pleasing was highly rewarded. And so you can imagine my disorientation when I come into a coaching world where my people pleasing isn't rewarded anymore, but begins to feel uncomfortable. And then I am in a master coach training program and it gets called out in a pretty, what I will say now is a pretty unkind public way, but it had the effect of making me take a look at myself and like, what is going on here? Why can't I make a decision without worrying about who's gonna think what about it? Why can't I speak up for this thing that I want to say, but I can't, I feel like I don't have a choice. All of these just pieces of the puzzle came together because I was now no longer in a community that was benefiting from my people pleasing, but I was in a community that was asking me to take a look at it and see it as an obstacle.

Kristin Carder 39:49

Wow, I just wow. And boy, do I relate to leaving a system. And the loss, the grief, the disorientation of that, I just want to say solidarity. I felt that so, so deeply, so deeply.

Sara Bybee Fisk 40:19

And having an ADHD diagnosis has made so much of that life clearer to me, like when you think about an eye rejection sensitivity. I just put myself in a place to never be rejected by constantly pleasing, by constantly making myself indispensable, needed. Like, Sara, you're so integral to the workings of this particular thing that I would make myself that person so that I could leave on my own terms. And it really mitigated being rejected inside of that community where I knew all the rules. And now leaving that community where I don't know all the rules, or there are lots of different rules, and I get to decide, do I like those rules for me or not, is a completely different experience. But I think that's part of the transition from good girl to ex, is good girls fall, they know the rules and they follow them. And that's what keeps them safe and gets them belonging. It's also what keeps them hustling and hypervigilant. But coming outside of those rules and not asking anymore, is this right or wrong, but do I like this for me? Does this work for me? It's like a whole new world.

Kristin Carder 41:47

That is a whole new world because that was irrelevant in the land. Yeah, it doesn't matter what you want.

Sara Bybee Fisk 41:55

for yourself. No, it doesn't matter.

Kristin Carder 41:57

Exactly. How do you help people manage the dysregulation that comes with deciding something for yourself that might displease people that you love and care about? Like what are some ways that you help people to navigate that? And how can you share that with our audience in a way? Cause I think that will be so relatable where it's like, I identify with what you're saying, I definitely want to make more choices that are not self-abandoning, but how do I take those steps to navigate the dysregulation that comes with knowing that people I care about and respect are not pleased, they're not happy, they're disappointed, they're inconvenienced, they're mad.

Sara Bybee Fisk 42:50

That is, it's such a painful, complex process, disappointing someone else, especially with ADHD. It's just in another ballpark, and so here's what I have found. Number one, when you are in a good girl system, you don't even know what your own values are because they're just the values of the system. First of all, we have to be plugged into ourselves and our own values because that is the thing that gives structure to at least our desire to be this way in the world, whether it's kind, whether it's respectful, whether it's honest, whether it's a contributor. Those values have to be self-identified because most often the type of values that we have are going to guide us toward the behavior that we want, and what is in the way is a feeling. The feeling of shame that I've disappointed someone else, the feeling of anxiety that they're going to be mad at me, the fear that I will no longer belong or have status the same way that I did before I disappointed them. Those are all very real, and so I had to get a ton of training in feeling. I was a master compartmentalizer. I was a master at disconnecting, not feeling. I could switch very easily from anxiety to excitement. I could use that excitement like, okay, guys, what are we going to do? Let's have fun. Let's go do something amazing as a way of ignoring a lot of sadness, a lot of grief, and so feeling for me has been the thing, and it has been so beautifully messy. I mean, again, you're going to hear some emotion because I am so grateful that I can feel things that are messy, disconcerting at times. I feel uncontrollable, but I know I have me in a way that I just wasn't capable of before when I was trusting everybody else to have me.

Kristin Carder 45:05

Brings tears to my eyes.

Sara Bybee Fisk 45:07

Yeah, it does mine too. And if I could say the one particular part of feeling that has made the most difference is to know, a lot of my training is in somatic experiencing and some of my training is in internal family systems and understanding that parts of me were created to try and protect me. And the one part that I have to interact with most often, I call them the critical protector because they are convinced that if they just criticize me enough, I'll change. If they just judge me enough, like I'm just hard enough on Sara, she'll change. And so I have to remind that critical protector all the time like, listen, we're not doing it this way anymore. I know that that's what helped in the past but we're not doing it that way anymore. And I've got us, I have a plan because critical protectors are like, if I don't come in here, you're gonna screw this whole thing up and you're gonna lose everything. Your family members are gonna be disappointed. Your job, you're gonna lose your job. You're going to lose everything that's important to use unless I do this job of like being so incredibly hard on you. And I have to remind that part, like I'm here, it's okay. I've got us, I have a plan. We're taking this step by step. So that feeling and then building that internal dialogue with a part of me that really is trying to help that I think a lot of people who have ADHD have like, why are you doing this? Why do you keep acting like this? What's your problem? Why can't you change this? But to work with that part instead of against it because we both have the same goal which is that I have a connected, safe life.

Kristin Carder 46:57

I think that nobody listening to this podcast wanted to hear you say the way through, the way to be able to take steps to connect with yourself and to make decisions even when other people are upset with you is to feel. Nobody wanted to hear you say that, Sara. I know. For all of us, we're like, gross.No. Ew. Why do people on this podcast keep saying, like, a person says it all the time. Guests say it all the time. It's just like, quote unquote, unfortunately, this is the pathway, is being able to identify, self-soothe, allow, connect with, validate, and trust your emotions. There is no other way to stop people pleasing. There's no other way out of systems. There's no other way to say no when everyone else wants you to say yes. There's no other way. If we could find it, at least me, like how I feel is like, I hate that way. I hate that it is the way. If I could find another way, I'd figure it out. I would definitely do it. Then I would package it and make it a course. You guys could all have it. That way, the way of being vulnerable, of connecting to yourself, of doing the things that we were never allowed to do, which is make space for emotions and a cry and feel deeply. That just is so hard. I would say that that is 90% of the work that I do with my clients. I wonder if you feel the same with yours. That's the most of the work that you do as well.

Sara Bybee Fisk 48:48

Yeah. 100%. I just wanted to name that I think when you add an ADHD component to this feeling work, it changes it because these feelings in the beginning can feel overwhelming and outsized even for maybe even the situation, and I'll just be for me. With the ADHD component, a lot of these feelings in the beginning felt very overwhelming and outsized for the situation. The salad that I wanted at the restaurant wasn't there, and I would break down in tears once I started feeling. It's just like the dam broke a little bit, and so if you are in that phase of crying at the restaurant because they don't have your salad, it gets better. It gets easier to regulate that because that's a whole other – like you said, pills don't teach skills, and that regulation process in the beginning, you might feel like, I'm doing this wrong because this is out of control. You're not. Yes. You might feel like, this is ridiculous. I'm crying over a salad. No, that's right because you're not just crying over the salad. You're crying about the thousands of sad things that have happened that you never allowed yourself to have the sadness, the appropriate emotion for it. Be patient. It gets better.

Kristin Carder 50:15

Okay, so as we wrap up here, I think my last question for you is if feeling is the pathway and none of us actually want to do that, can you please sell us on what might it be like if we didn't people please? What has changed for you? What has changed for your clients? What is it like to be someone who is connected to themselves, who prioritizes themselves sometimes, who is able to understand themselves and walk in groundedness, knowing who they are? Sell me on that because I need a picture painted for me.

Sara Bybee Fisk 51:01

First of all, I am not that person all the time. I know how to come back to being that person when I slip out of it. I feel like it's a constant back and forth of like, measuring that self connection, am I happy with this? Is it giving me the information that I want? So I feel like it's a process of slipping out and getting back in and slipping out and getting back in. Beautiful, beautiful. Such a good question. When I have my best days, I can choose honest conflict over dishonest peace. That's a Friedrich Nietzsche quote there for you now, which has kind of really encapsulated the biggest change. I can choose honest conflict with love. I can say the things that I need to say, like, hey, this part of our relationship isn't working for me and I'd like to re-imagine this and recreate this with you. Are you up for that work with me? On harder days, I just cry and I just let myself cry and I let myself feel frustrated and I don't judge myself for it. I just, that's the biggest difference. If I'm gonna be sad that they don't have my salad at the restaurant, I'm just gonna let myself feel sad. I just recently went on a trip with my husband and I messed up our tickets to the one place I wanted to see and we didn't get to go. This place has been on my list since college, since learning about it. He loves me and wanted to jump into like, it's okay, it's okay, we're just gonna have to come back. We can get tickets another time. I was like, you know what, sweetheart? Thank you, I just need to cry and be sad about this.I'm gonna need to cry and be sad for as long as it takes. Then it just felt done. And now I can tell you the story with no tears and with a lot of compassion because I felt that. And so on my good days, I feel like I am me and I'm taking care of all of the parts of me in honest relationships with people that matter to me. I'm not pretending, I'm not performing, I'm not editing. And then on the days when I have less resources and less capacity because that's the thing, like fluctuating capacity to deal with and engage with the world, I just don't judge myself for it anymore.

Kristin Carder 53:30

Yeah, I love it so much. I love it, love it so much. I had this experience last night where someone came to the door to solicit, to sell something in the neighborhood. And I was able to respectfully but assertively say, I am 100% not interested. And he kept talking and I was just like, thank you so much, but I'm not interested. And I just gently closed the door. It was not like, get out of here. But it was just very assertive and respectful. And I remember last summer someone from that same team came to the door and I stood there frozen, not able to stop him. And I let him talk to me for 15 minutes. Feeling in my body like, get me out of here, get me out of here, what the heck, what the heck. Not able to just speak the truth of, thank you so much, I'm not interested. I think I said it and he over talked over me and I was like, oh, OK. And I just couldn't prioritize myself in that moment. Even though I was in my home, in my safest space, I felt ambushed and I will just never get over the contrast of what one year can do of just this work of connecting with yourself, connecting with your emotions, believing yourself, trusting yourself, knowing that it's OK to prioritize yourself over someone else once in a while. And just being able to just gently, absolutely no drama in my brain, thank you so much, I'm not interested. Goodbye, closed the door. I just felt like I've never been so powerful in my whole life.

Sara Bybee Fisk 55:26

It's so true our power is in those moments where we're not pretending or performing where we say like this this is the thing I want to say and I had a similar situation yesterday with a contractor doing some work in our home and there was something I wasn't happy about. Usually I would send my husband to relay the information and I just walked in and said hey I need to talk to you about a couple of things that are not working for me in the way this job is being done. Clear, kind and he pushed back a little bit and I said you're gonna hear me get a little angry here because what I am coming to tell you is not what I'm suggesting that you do is as the person who has hired you it is what I want you to do and if that's a problem you can go ahead and let me know now because this is what I want to see happen and it's I'm not asking for anything above and beyond I would have never been able to be that clear and grounded and like if I had said that my stomach would have been like and I would have gone away like was I too mean did he does he does he hate me now I would have over thought it I was like listen this is this is what we agreed on this is what is not happening tell me if that's a problem and I'm happy to let you know someone else do this job but I just don't I don't have time or energy to let this take up space and so that is I mean it's everything right it's in those moments. Do you just feel like a woman? I feel like the fucking queen of the universe yes yeah just like I can say what needs to be said and I had an incident at a family reunion where I was able to be really tender and really kind and just say this part of this relationship is painful for both of us can we please talk about it and so waiting into that yeah that the honest loving conflict that I just would have never like the possibility of being rejected being misunderstood being thought of as mean being thought of as somebody who wasn't nice it just would have been paralyzing before.

Kristin Carder 57:42

Mm. Oh, beautiful. Sara, if people are just listening to this and are like, I need more, I need more. Tell us where to find you.Tell us who you work with, how you work with them. Give us all the details.

Sara Bybee Fisk 57:57

You can find me on Instagram and Facebook, Sara Fisk Coaching. I work with individuals. I do one-on-one coaching and I do group coaching. The one-on-one coaching is kind of a catch-all for anything you want to work on. The group coaching is specifically to stop people pleasing. And it's as a beautiful, supportive, loving community. I mean, I've been a part of your ADHD community and just to hear other people say my experience in their own words, it's beautiful. And so that's why that group coaching program exists. And the next time that it enrolls is in the next couple of weeks and we start again at the end of August and we'll start again at the beginning of the year.

Kristin Carder 58:39

Amazing. And are you still recording your podcast?

Sara Bybee Fisk 58:43

Yes, my podcast is the Ex Good Girl podcast, which this is going to just make you laugh.It took me forever to be able to say that name out loud because it felt so scandalous when I first came up with it and that just goes to show progress is made in fits and starts but it is made and it is one of my favorite things because I get to talk about my experiences and interview people about their experiences of becoming someone who is self-connected and trust themselves and has stopped judging themselves.

Kristin Carder 59:18

Hmm, beautiful. Thank you so much for being here. This is every time I get to talk to you is such a joy for me. So thanks for sharing your wisdom, your knowledge, everybody go check out her podcast, her programs, you will not be disappointed.

Sara Bybee Fisk 59:35

Hey, thanks for listening. If this podcast has been helpful to you, I would really appreciate it. If you would give me a five star rating and whatever platform you listen to your podcasts.And if you go to my website, Sarafisk.coach, you can sign up there to receive my emails. Right now I'm taking private one-to-one clients who want my help speeding up this work in their own lives. I really hope to provide a lot of free information on my website and in my podcast for people to do this work on their own, but if you're interested in having a coach like me to help you implement these things faster, to find the blind spots and obstacles that you're not aware of, go to my website and sign up for a consult. That's a time when you and I can get on zoom and talk about the particulars of your situation. And I can show you how I could be helpful. The second thing you can do on my website is sign up for a freebie that I have called Difficult Conversations. Having a conversation that seems like it's going to be hard or difficult is one of the things that people pleaser struggle with. And so I've created a whole guide for you to be able to do that with some more confidence. That will also get you signed up for information about my group program, Stop People Pleasing. It's a group coaching program where you join a community of women just like you who are struggling to overcome perfectionating and people pleasing. And we do it together in a group. It's a really amazing opportunity to not just learn from your own experience, but just to see how similar you are to so many other women out there. The healing and the challenging and the laughing and the growth that happens in that beautiful community of women is really amazing. And if it's interesting to you, I would love for you to know about it. 

Episode 122 - Signs You're Ready For a Bigger Life!

As women, we receive so much messaging about how big our lives are allowed to be. Whether it’s patriarchy, childhood conditioning, or the communities we’re part of, many women learn that being convenient, optimistic, and helpful makes them lovable. Even though it isn’t true, that influence often keeps us from living our lives in a bigger way. In this episode, we explore the signs that your life is too small for you and how you can start to live a life that’s as honest and expressive as you want. Here's what I cover: 

• How to recognize when your life has become too small by how your body feels

• The most common signs that you're ready to take your life to the next level

• Why your dreams feeling impossible or selfish is a signal that you’re ready for change

• How resentment and irritation can show up under the surface when you feel stuck in a small life

• How emotional suppression can lead to real issues that affect women’s health

• An example of how my life changed when I learned how to say what needed to be said

Sign up for the FREE WORKSHOP on July 22nd: https://pages.sarafisk.coach/say-it-jul-2025 

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

Every single one of us were born to people, parents, caregivers, who had ideas about what our life was going to look like. They couldn't help it, right? They were taught by the people they were born to what their life was going to look like. 

 01:15

And I think about, you know, those early years of being alive and all the ways in which we were told this is what is okay, this is what is not okay. This is what you will do. This is what you shouldn't do. 

 01:30

These are the rules. These are the roles that we want you to take on in your life. And here's how you will be rewarded if you keep those rules and live up to those roles. And you know what, it's inevitable. 

 01:44

There really isn't another way to do it. And I think that when we're young, especially because of the way children's minds work and develop, they need a lot of structure. They need a lot of kind of black and white rules to live up to. 

 02:00

live in so that they can feel safe and that they can progress. I get all of that. I wish someone would have said, and you know what? Right now you have all these rules and you're being taught to live and act and show up in a certain way and someday you are going to get to pick what you want. 

 02:23

You're going to go on an incredible journey to discover yourself, what you like, what you don't like, what lights you up, what makes you feel small and sad, what you want to spend your time doing, what you want to fill your head with. 

 02:39

You're going to create a whole universe that you get to live in with the people that you love and that you have relationships with and some people will be super close and other people maybe not and you'll get to pick all of that. 

 02:59

And, I mean, I was never taught that, right? I think it's pretty fair to say that for most of us, between patriarchy, telling women what they should do and who they should be and how they should show up, and then all of the other communities that we each inhabit, whether we're immigrants or women of color or whether we were raised by single moms or single dads, whether we are LGBTQ, whether we are anyone of religious. 

 03:27

Yeah, there's a big one. There's so much information that comes at us about who we should be, about what the size of our life should look like. And I see so many women struggling with the size of the life that we were taught to create so that we could be loved. 

 03:48

I very definitely received the message that in order to be loved, I had to be convenient. I was taught that to get the love and connection that I craved, I should be easy to be around and that if my needs were too big or my preferences were too big, that I might get left, right? 

 04:11

That people would like me more if I was really optimistic and always kind of showing the side of myself that was accommodating and happy, go with the flow. And that worked, or at least I thought it was working right for a long time because I was able to have relationships that worked because I was trying to be uncomplicated, optimistic, always showing up and working. 

 04:47

But I had the sense and I had the feeling that my life was smaller. It was like wearing a piece of clothing that was too small for me, that wouldn't allow me to move. or express myself, or show up the way I really wanted. 

 05:02

And every single week, I talk to women who are having that same experience. And for some of them, it's very painful. For others, it's just like a sense of wondering what it might be like to show up in a bigger, more expressive, more honest way. 

 05:18

But there are signs that your life is too small for you. And I want to tell you about some of them because they're not only signs that show up in the way that you act and the way that you feel and the way you see other people react to you. 

 05:34

But in the way your body actually feels, the tenseness that is constantly in your jaw, the way you feel like you're just constantly bracing or anxious about the next thing coming. Because what I want more than anything is for women to feel like they are able to live as big, as expressive a life. 

 05:58

as they want. I know that we all have different circumstances and nervous systems and preferences and dreams, and there are some women who want lives that are calm and quiet and predictable and filled with love and graciousness. 

 06:14

I want that for them. There are other women who want to be on stage, who want to talk about things that feel very dangerous and live out loud in a way that I think would make other women feel uncomfortable. 

 06:31

Fine. Not everybody has to be doing the same thing, but the sense is that no matter which type of life you want, there are signs that tell you it's just time for the next level. And I've made a list of some of the common ones that I hear, and I want to talk about them with you because I also have a solution I want to offer you. 

 06:53

So many women talk about feeling invisible in their own lives. They show up as like the support for everyone else, and they really aren't considered. Sometimes they have people making decisions about them or for them without asking their opinion. 

 07:11

And other times, there's just this absentee feeling like they are not thought of or they're an afterthought. Another sign, there's the constant feeling of editing. I can't say that it's too demanding. 

 07:29

I can't say that that's too needy. There's apologizing for having opinions. You constantly work to soften your words or your message until it kind of loses the essence of what you're trying to say. And so when you say it, you have this sense of dissatisfaction of like, oh, it's not really what I wanted to say, but and then you just kind of have to go with it. 

 07:52

There's also the sense that once you've brought something up or once you've said something, You can't talk about it again even if you have that feeling of lack of satisfaction like I only get one chance there's only one chance for me to say what's on my mind and if it doesn't go the way I want well that's just how it goes and now we've just got to live with what is. 

 08:16

I have the sense for so long that i was trying to be so diplomatic that i wasn't ever really allowed to be clear i could never really be clear. Another big sign is that you have dreams and wants that feel impossible or selfish. 

 08:33

That the selfish monster is kind of always looming over anytime you want to speak up you can't imagine pursuing what you want for yourself because of the inconvenience that it would cause others when you do speak up and when you ask. 

 08:50

to take a pottery class that you've been really wanting to take. You find the day and the time that is least inconvenient for everybody. And that's kind of, you fit your life into the like the holes that are created around other people's schedule. 

 09:07

There's a feeling of guilt for wanting more than what you have. And if you have aspirations, they have to shrink a little bit to fit other people's expectations. Or like I said, those little holes in the schedule when it's okay for you to do what you want because nobody else needs anything from you. 

 09:29

Your feelings are a big sign. There's some resentment that's constantly below the surface. Oftentimes you're angry or irritated at little things that don't seem to make sense, but you can't really pinpoint a bigger reason. 

 09:49

There's a feeling of stuck or trapped, but you don't really know how it happened. You have a good life. Everything is fine. Everything is even good. But there's a feeling on the inside of your body that lets you know something isn't right. 

 10:08

You're exhausted by how much you give the outflow of your energy versus the inflow and asking for more from other people just feels wrong. So you don't. Another sign is you're afraid of your own voice. 

 10:26

Speaking up has like a risky or a dangerous quality to it. You're worried about being too much. You've seen other women be punished or denigrated for being bossy or bitchy or too much. And you really don't want that to happen to you. 

 10:44

So you stay quiet, even when things deeply matter because rocking that boat feels really scary. Another sign, there is a sense of performativeness in your relationships. Like you know what your role is. 

 11:01

I am supposed to show up. I'm supposed to make everybody feel better. I'm supposed to provide for their needs. I'm supposed to listen to how other people are doing and feeling, and I'm kind of the manager. 

 11:12

I'm the project manager of everyone else's emotions. And that is more important than expressing my own emotions. People love that you are the project manager of their lives, of their emotions. And it leaves you with a sense of feeling lonely, of feeling unlistened to, unconsidered. 

 11:36

It goes so far sometimes as a feeling of loneliness, even when you're surrounded by other people because there isn't the connection to you that you have to them. And sometimes we don't even recognize that what we connect to in other people are their needs and wants and sometimes not even their dreams and their emotional life. 

 11:59

Cause we're so busy just managing needs and wants that the depth that we want, the connection that we want in relationships is missing. There's a sense of envy or even irritation at women who take up more space. 

 12:14

I used to have this all the time. There was a voice inside of me when I saw other women speaking up, taking up space, I would say, sit down, sit down. That's the voice inside of me would say, because the jealousy, the irritation that I felt looking at those other women, saying what they wanted to say, it felt impossible to me. 

 12:37

It felt like I could never do that. And instead of feeling inspired by it, I would just feel irritated and underneath the irritation was so much sadness and grief that I didn't feel like I could speak up the way I wanted to. 

 12:54

So many of us have forgotten what we actually like or we don't know what we actually like or what we want or what we need because those things have just not, they've either been irrelevant or we haven't focused on them for so long that there's a sense of emptiness. 

 13:11

Your body is also trying to tell you the tightness that you feel in your throat, like words are stuck right there or whenever you want to speak up, like they can get right into that throat, but then it just feels tight and constricted. 

 13:29

Maybe when you hear your own voice, when you speak up, you're surprised because the quality changes, you get the pitch is higher. Your voice might even get smaller, almost like there is an apology with those words that comes out all at the same time, like you're just sorry that you're even talking. 

 13:48

existing. I talk to women who literally feel like their throat is closing when they try to express what they need. They feel into their jaw and all of the tension that they feel. Like, take a second right now and take two fingers, your pointer finger and your middle finger, and just press into your jaw. 

 14:09

Some of that tension, it's because you're literally clenching from stress during the night, or from like not saying the words that you want to say. There's a feeling in your chest sometimes, like you can't get a full open breath. 

 14:27

Like, there's a weight, a heaviness pressing down that makes it hard to fully expand. Your heart races at the very thought of disappointing someone else or having to have a difficult conversation. I want you to pay attention to your shoulders right now, the bracing. 

 14:48

the shrinking, the heaviness that is there. Your neck aches from constantly scanning the room to read everybody's move, and all the stress and tension lives kind of in the back of your neck, in the front of your neck, those tight little muscles there. 

 15:06

Maybe your stomach is in knots. You have nausea, literally you want to throw up when you think about speaking up. There are so many of us who have digestive issues all the time. Some aren't even explainable, right? 

 15:21

80% of autoimmune disease happens to women. That is because we have so much stuck in our bodies that needs to come out that we don't know how. Those are real issues that affect our actual health. Not to mention like our hands shaking, our body shaking when it's time to speak up, the way our palms sweat before important conversations, the tossing and turning at night instead of sleeping, replaying those conversations over and over and over. 

 15:58

And if we actually do fall asleep, we don't wake up feeling rested. And the most telling sign is living with a disconnection from our own body, our hunger, our desire, our need, our want. We have had to disconnect because it would be overwhelming to feel the life that we want and not be able to have it. 

 16:24

We've just spent so many years learning to override those feelings, override our hunger, override our tiredness, our discomfort, because we're the project managers of everybody else's lives. All of that feels like a disconnected smallness of frustration, a stuckness and irritation, a numbness. 

 16:48

a lot of clients who describe, it's almost like they're watching their life from the outside, and they're not in it. The numbness, the difficulty feeling really connected comes from living too small a life. 

 17:06

It's like our body has been trying to tell us for years, we don't like this. We want more, we need more, and the tense muscles, the shallow breathing, the knot in the stomach. What it is, is your body telling you we want a fuller, more authentic life. 

 17:26

We can't do this anymore. One of the most important skills that is required for stepping into and creating that next level, bigger version of whatever you want your life to look like, is to say what you need to say. 

 17:45

Because until we can learn to put all of those desires and needs and wants into words and to say them, they are going to stay stuck. They are going to cause that inner tension and pressure and pain until we learn to let them out. 

 18:03

Hey, what are you doing on July 22nd from 12 to 1.30 p.m. Pacific? Because I am going to be teaching one of my most requested workshops, Say What You Want To Say. This workshop will teach you the framework for finding the exact right words for any situation, how to use mental rehearsal to stay confident even when your nervous system is activated, how to handle pushback with grace, and the secret to communicating with both power and kindness. 

 18:37

I've even got a special giveaway planned for those who attend live. So use the link in my bio or the link in the show notes to sign up for that workshop, and I will see you on July 22nd from 12 to 1.30 p.m. 

 18:51

It's why it's one of the skills that I teach inside of my group coaching program, Stop People Pleasing. It's something I teach to every single one of my clients because in order to say what really needs to be said, we have to learn to take better care of ourselves, we have to learn to regulate our nervous systems, we have to learn to find the words, and we have to learn to have our own back. 

 19:14

It's actually pretty complicated, and I see so many of us beating ourselves up. Why didn't you just say it? Why didn't you just, you know, let it out? But it's because we were taught we couldn't, and we were taught that our lives were supposed to be smaller and very convenient for everybody else, and so of course this is hard. 

 19:36

Of course you don't know how. So if nothing else from this episode, I want you to learn what your body is trying to tell you. what your circumstances are trying to tell you. And I wanna offer you the hope that you can have it. 

 19:51

You can learn it. My brain works in a very practical way. I don't know, maybe that's the ADHD, who knows? But I need to have a process. And so I developed a process and a formula or a method, whatever you wanna call it, for learning how to say exactly what you wanna say. 

 20:09

I did a podcast episode about it. It is episode number 23. And so go back and listen to that or come to the workshop that I'm gonna be doing in just a few days, because it is an essential skill for you to have. 

 20:25

And if you're hearing this after July 22nd, when I've done the workshop, send me an email and I will send you the workshop. Hello, at sarahfisk.coach, because it is essential. Let me give you an example of how in my own life, things changed. 

 20:43

because I learned how to say what needed to be said. I had a very hard time expressing my emotions about things. I didn't want other people to be inconvenienced or to feel sad or to feel guilty when things happened that I didn't like. 

 20:59

So I just had this feeling of like, there were lots of things I could not say. And in lots of families, that's what happens. You just don't talk about things. You don't say things in a very clear direct way and that's to protect everybody's feelings. 

 21:13

A couple of years ago, my birthday was on a Sunday and my dad, who is very active in the church that I was raised in that I no longer go to, had some jobs that the church had given him to do on Sunday. 

 21:27

And when I called to talk about having them over for my birthday, he said that he couldn't come because he had these jobs to do. Now the old me would have just said, oh, oh, okay. And I would have let maybe a little bit of the disappointment come out, but not all of it. 

 21:46

And because I had been practicing in lower stakes situations first, that's key because for many of us, saying what we wanna say with our parents or the people that we are most bonded to is the hardest because I had been practicing in lower stakes situations first, I saw it as an opportunity to say what it was that I really wanted to say. 

 22:08

And I said, dad, I don't think anyone at church would be surprised if you rescheduled these jobs because you have a family's birthday celebration to attend. And he kind of hemmed and hawed and didn't really seem like he was interested in changing his plans. 

 22:28

And so I asked him directly, dad, are you willing to change your plans so that you can come celebrate my birthday? And he did a little more hemming and hawing. And I said, dad, I know that this job is really important. 

 22:43

to you. I know it really matters that you show up. I know that these people are depending on you. I get all of that and I really admire your dedication to that. It also makes me sad because what I think I hear you saying is that you are not willing to reschedule those jobs that could be done another Sunday to come and spend time with me. 

 23:09

Is that what I'm hearing? And he said, yes, that's what you're hearing. And I said, okay, okay. I respect that decision and I want you to know that it makes me sad that you would not be willing to do that. 

 23:26

And that's where the conversation ended. Past versions of me would never have been able to say what I really wanted to say in. what I considered to be a loving and respectful way. I wasn't yelling at him. 

 23:43

I wasn't crying. And side note, yelling and crying are totally appropriate in conversations. I'm not saying that those are bad, but I wanted to focus on the message. And what really kind of thrilled me about that conversation was that I got to say exactly what I wanted to say. 

 24:04

There was no happy ending. He didn't change his plans. He, you know, we didn't end up celebrating my birthday together in that way, but I got to say it. And I am telling you, it was the best feeling, even though I was genuinely sad and disappointed. 

 24:21

I now feel like I can say what needs to be said, even if it takes me a little bit, even if I'm not able to say it exactly right in the moment, I can come back to it later. I have strategies. I have a framework that I've created that works beautifully that I want to teach you. 

 24:39

It works for my clients. It works for anyone who hears it, and it's actually easier than you might think. So if you have been feeling the nudge, the pull, the demand, even that it's time for a bigger version of your life, we need to talk. 

 24:59

And I need to give you what I have gleaned and created to help facilitate that for you, because it is my wish for every woman that she be able to say what needs to be said. Can you think of what could happen just in our relationships and in the world? 

 25:18

If we were able to speak up with honesty, the type of vulnerability and intimacy that we could enjoy together, will some relationships change because of it? Absolutely. And I'll tell you how to handle that as well. 

 25:32

I'll teach you how to handle the pushback or the times when it doesn't go well. There will be relationships. relationships that change because of this, and there will be other relationships that become exactly what you've dreamed of, where you are heard and seen and loved for everything about you and where you feel deeply connected to who you are in such an authentic, open way that you can say what needs to be said. 

 26:02

Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Episode 121 - Part 2: Are People Pleasers Liars? (And Why That's Not The Real Problem)

Last week, I shared an interactive episode about people-pleasing and lying—today, we’re continuing the conversation. In this episode, I offer an approach that is based not on the morality of telling the truth, but on your values and human need for safety. We’ll take a deeper look at why we lie, the hidden costs it can have in our relationships, and how you can be more truthful in safe, selective places to foster connection to yourself and others. Here’s what I cover:

• How good-girl programming wires us to lie in order to please and avoid conflict

• The huge role that the nervous system plays in why we lie

• When lying can still be a necessary and useful tool

• How we separate children from the truth of their bodies and punish them for honesty

• Why protecting yourself is not the same as deceiving someone else

• How to build more honesty in your life one relationship at a time

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

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https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

00:59

Oh, man, the more time I spend with this topic, the more I learn, and I'm just fascinated by it. Last week, we did our first interactive podcast episode where I asked you to send me your experiences with lying. 

 01:16

And I'm so grateful I got some great ones, funny ones, sad ones, everything in between. And it's just I'm really fascinated with this topic. And I feel like I've got some great information to add to this discussion because I know so many women who on top of beating themselves up for being people pleasers, they beat themselves up because they lie as well. 

 01:42

I did for a long time, I have a long and storied past with not being able to tell the truth because I didn't feel safe to do so. And now after sitting with this topic for the last seriously 18 months, maybe almost two years now. 

 02:00

I have a much better understanding of why that is. I want to spell it out here for you today so that a couple things. Number one, what I hope you take away from this episode is the reality of why we lie and why it was always gonna happen and why I still sometimes thinks it's necessary and a useful tool. 

 02:20

Number two, an awareness of what lying is causing in your relationships. And number three, an opportunity to explore how you might be more truthful in safe, selective places so that you can be more seen. 

 02:39

The joy of being a human, part of the joy, a lot of the joy of being human is knowing who we are. Like being deeply connected to myself is a joy. It's just unlike anything that I've ever known. I had built an entire life around showing up for other people, being the giver, being the doer, being the one who would overwork, overgive, stay later, push harder. 

 03:11

And so much of my value came from that. Maybe this is familiar to you too, right? People relied on me. I made myself indispensable in a lot of my relationships. And that felt really good until I realized I didn't know me. 

 03:28

And the joy of being connected to myself is such a huge part of the peace and the joy of being a human. So I want that for you. And number two, another big part of the joy of being human is having relationships where you can be seen and heard fully, where every part of you is accepted and loved and treated with respect and honor, because that's what you deserve. 

 03:59

And so often, the way we have been taught to interact with the truth gets in the way of that. So those are my goals for this episode. And I'd love to hear what you think. So send me a DM after you listen to this. 

 04:14

Just to be clear, what we are talking about here is what I call like survival strategy lies, right? It's when you say you're fine, but you're really not fine. It's when you say, I have other plans when you just need space. 

 04:30

Or when you say, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. I don't mind. I don't mind when you do mind, when you don't feel like you can tell the truth. And so you make up an excuse. I am not talking about lies that are manipulative, where you're trying to rob or cheat someone, or where you are trying to hurt other people. 

 04:51

That is a separate category. So these type of survival lies, they happen across our relationships at work, with our friends, with our family, and there's actually a really, really good reason behind it too that I want you to consider. 

 05:10

Number one, good girls are conditioned to believe that we are supposed to be kind of this open resource, this open book, right? That we don't really fully belong to ourselves. We are taught that we exist as a resource for other people instead of as our own autonomous person with our own needs, boundaries, and entitlement to having needs and boundaries. 

 05:40

We are taught to see ourselves as valuable when we give, when we serve, when we are a resource for others to use. And I lived that, right? My value came so much from what I did for other people. And this idea that a good woman, a good wife, a good mom, a good sister, was just always being accessible, agreeable, and accommodating. 

 06:09

So think about when your value is really plugged in to that, and you want to take any time for yourself or you're going to disappoint someone or let someone down. If your value is tied to that, of course, you're going to lie because you want to keep whatever you can of someone else's confidence, someone else's good opinion, right? 

 06:33

It's making me think of the times when I lied about not being able to show up for someone else. I wanted them to still think well of me while I also wasn't able to show up for whatever reason. And so I would lie to preserve whatever value I could get out of that situation. 

 06:51

So that's the first thing I want you to think about. And ask yourself this question. How much of your value is tied up in being accessible, agreeable, and accommodating for other people? And how do you respond when those things are threatened? 

 07:09

And when your value is threatened? We lie, we don't tell the whole truth because we want to just keep whatever value we can. Second of all, children in general are not taught that they are allowed to have boundaries, that they are allowed to have preferences. 

 07:29

Think about the rock and the hard place that children live in when it comes to the truth. We often love how honest little kids are. And we don't always realize how we punish them for telling the truth. 

 07:45

As children, we actually learn that us telling the truth could threaten our connection with our caregivers. That it could get us punished, that it could result in lack of connection. We tell children, tell the truth, but then when they do, they're punished. 

 08:05

We tell children, you know, tell me what you think, but then when they do, they get in trouble. Children are separated from the truth of their body, the feelings that are in their body over and over and over again and forced to perform for adults. 

 08:22

I think a lot about interactions that I have watched where children were told to do something against the truth in their body and they were punished for not wanting to do it and rewarded for doing it. 

 08:36

Classic example, I was always told to finish all the food on my plate as a child, even after my stomach was full. I would get in trouble if I didn't. So if I hold the truth, mom or dad, my stomach is full. 

 08:50

I don't want any more. I would get in trouble for that truth and how often we do that to kids. We teach them, don't trust the truth in your body. You have to conform to the truth that I am giving you that I want you to live. 

 09:08

And just how fucked up that makes the truth for children because they know we don't really want the actual truth as adults. We want conformity. We want obedience. And so between those two layers of programming, the good girl programming that we don't really belong to ourselves, that we're supposed to be accessible, accommodating, and always available to others, plus the way that we separate children from the truth of their bodies and punish them for telling the truth.

 09:38

I mean, no fucking wonder that this becomes a chronic disconnection from our own truth. That we learn that the truth is actually dangerous to our survival. And that's the feeling that we carry in our brains and in our bodies. 

 09:56

It's all of those conflicting messages. Always tell the truth and yet being followed by being punished for being honest. I taught kindergarten for a lot of years and I'm telling you it was some of the funnest years of my life because those kids would say things. 

 10:14

I remember one morning Paul came in, dropped his bag, sat down for circle time and he said, my mom would not stop farting in the car. Okay, that's the truth, right? What would Paul's mom have done if she were there? 

 10:28

She would have punished him, right? Another student, Clarissa, talking about all the different men coming in and out of their home as her mom was dating and having different relationships. What would her mom have done if she had been there when Clarissa shared that with the whole class? 

 10:42

It's such an interesting frame of reference that we give children and it just makes so much sense to me that when that is our relationship with the truth, we grow up with this constant anxiety about the truth because we know it's not safe. 

 11:05

It creates a fear of what other people will think of us or how they will react to the truth and it put your hands on your chest and just think about the answer to this question. Is it safe for me to tell the truth and just go through some of the different relationships in your own life? 

 11:38

Is it safe to tell the truth there? Is it safe to tell the truth there? Sometimes the answer will be no and what I want you to understand is that while that feeling is real, it's an old feeling, it's a feeling that's connected to these conflicting messages that you received when you were a child. 

 12:01

And so while it might be what you are actually feeling, what I want to explore a little bit later in the episode is that it might actually be safe now as an adult and your body just doesn't know it yet. 

 12:14

And so there is an opportunity to be more authentic and more honest that we're missing because our bodies are still running on this old programming, on this old idea that the truth isn't safe. And that we are responsible for other people's emotions and comfort and so we can't be honest. 

 12:38

So before we get into that, I do want to say a little bit about safety. Emotional safety is a real need. Some people do not deserve or cannot handle the truth. And I want you to just think, who are some of those people? 

 12:58

And I want you to trust yourself. I want you to trust that your body has good information that might need to be updated or that you might need to actually stick to and you're going to know the difference. 

 13:14

You're going to experiment with the difference because again, what we want is some places where we can increase our safety and be more truthful and we want to be able to not feel guilty when our emotional, our physical, our economic safety or our social safety is at stake in ways that we are not ready to handle yet because that is actually true. 

 13:40

Sometimes the truth isn't safe. It can threaten us economically. I'm thinking back to a workshop I did a couple of weeks ago, where a woman was in attendance. I'll call her Barbara. She worked with a manager who a couple times a week would ask her to stay after her shift to do extra work. 

 13:59

Barbara didn't want to, but she did not feel like she could tell the truth, right? She felt like there was a threat to her economic safety. And so Barbara came up with the lie that her son had soccer practice, so that that would get her out of having to stay later. 

 14:14

I am not passing any judgment on Barbara's decision. What I want to do is take you through a couple of questions and a couple of reframes, because while Barbara's manager might not be a safe person to open up to and to be more truthful with, my goal is that you have one place, even if it's just with yourself, where you are able to be more truthful. 

 14:42

At the same time, having a very healthy respect for the safety that we all need as humans. So, some people can't handle the truth and don't deserve it. You are not required to tell the truth to anyone, unless I guess you're hands on a Bible and you're in a court of law, right? 

 15:05

Then you should probably tell the truth. But you're not required by some moral law of the universe to sacrifice your safety for other people. Not everyone deserves or is entitled to your truth. And protecting yourself is not the same as deceiving someone else, right? 

 15:26

We have so much moral language around this idea of the truth. And I want to just set it all aside and look at the core need that we have as humans for safety and make some decisions about how we can increase that safety. 

 15:45

So, I really want to offer an approach to this that is based not on the morality of telling the truth or not, but on your values and on our need for safety. 

 16:57

So I want you to just think of an area or a relationship or a particular situation where you are not telling the truth. And I want you to ask a couple questions. Number one, does this lie serve me? 

 17:17

What's my initial response to that? And remember, your programming or your body's response is connected to your childhood experiences. And so just keep in mind that the answer right off the bat might be no. 

 17:34

But then I want you to just sit with it for a minute. I want you to remind your body, you know what, we're an adult now. We have resources, we have skills, we have tools, we have opportunities. I can take care of us better. 

 17:52

We're not a child anymore. So in that frame of reference, does this lie serve me? I'm thinking about a lie that I told. This was maybe two years ago, I had started reading spicy books. And I was embarrassed about how much I enjoyed them. 

 18:16

And one time my husband found one of the books and he said, Oh, it's this I was like, Oh, it's just a book. And I didn't elaborate at all. And okay, so was that true? Was it a book? Yes. Did that lie serve me? 

 18:30

It didn't. Because in that moment, I could have shown him a little bit more of me and been accepted or gotten some feedback from him. And I chose not to. Now the little me, that old programming that tells me it's not safe, she would have definitely said, it's not safe. 

 18:53

You can't show him this. But when I sat with that, and I let the older me join the conversation as well. And I said, you know what? It's true, he might have some judgment about that. He might have some thoughts about this type of reading material. 

 19:10

But if that's true, I can handle it. I can take care of us. Because the second question I want you to answer is what effect is lying having on this relationship? Notice I'm saying this relationship, I want you to think relationship by relationship. 

 19:31

We are not going to blanketly be honest with everybody all the time about everything. That's not what we're talking about. So using my example specific to my relationship with my husband, and not telling him the truth about the spicy books I was reading, what effect was not telling the truth having there? 

 19:49

It was keeping me hiding. It was keeping me having to like monitor, you know, what he was seeing. It was creating a lot more work and it was creating a part of me that I could not let him see or that I did not think he would accept or want to see. 

 20:09

Question number three, what was the lie doing to me or how was the lying affecting me? It was making me feel smaller. It was making me feel embarrassed. It was kind of feeding this idea that there was something shameful about what I was doing and it didn't feel good. 

 20:31

And then the last question I want you to ask yourself is, am I satisfied with having to lie in this situation? Another way to ask that question is, is this what I want to keep doing? And for me, in that situation with the book. 

 20:47

The answer was no. I wanted to show him what I was interested in. I wanted to show him what I was curious about. I wanted to show him the parts of me that I was wanting to explore. And so asking and answering those questions for myself helped me make the decision to be truthful with him about what the book was about and why I was interested in it. 

 21:11

So those questions, again, number one, does this serve me? Does this lie serve me in this situation? Number two, what effect does lying have on this relationship? Number three, how is lying in this relationship affecting me? 

 21:27

And number four, is this how I want to keep doing it? Am I satisfied with having to lie to get what I want here? Always remembering that your body has some of that old programming that the lies is the only way to be safe and that as an adult, you actually have more resources and more ability to take care of yourself if you tell the truth and someone doesn't receive it well. 

 21:55

So I want to add a couple of other things. Getting clear on your values is going to be really important. What do you value when it comes to relationships? Kindness, honesty, safety, growth, opportunity for vulnerability. 

 22:13

Those are my values. And so when I decided to read a passage of the book to my husband and let him in on what I was reading and what I was curious about, it was from those values. He laughed. He was like, OK, so that's what we're doing now. 

 22:29

And I was like, yep, that's what we're doing. And it felt like such a relief and such an opportunity to let him not only see a part of me, but be curious about it with me, give me some feedback and to not have to hide that part of me from him. 

 22:47

So getting clear on your values is really important. Another thing that's important is just always assessing the situation. Is this person or is this situation safe for the truth? I'm thinking about a story that I got from a woman named Jen. 

 23:05

Every time she goes to the doctor, it's near a coffee and bookshop that she just loves. And so she always tells her husband that the appointment takes longer than it really takes. So she has time to get some coffee and to enjoy a book because she doesn't feel like she's able to get that any other way. 

 23:24

I don't know if Jen's husband is a safe place for that truth right now, but Jen will know, right? Assessing the situation or seeing how might I be a little more honest here. And then just making a conscious choice. 

 23:41

That's the last thing I want you to give yourself permission to do. If I am going to deflect, I am going to do it because of a really good reason, right? It's something that I'm still figuring out how to do. 

 23:53

It's something that I am learning how to have the capacity for with myself, and I'm not going to make myself feel guilty when I don't have the capacity and when I choose to deflect. You're always gonna start with safe people and low-risk situations first. 

 24:12

That's what I teach across the board, no matter what is happening. And then when you choose to deflect, just release the guilt. Here's some things I want you to remember as we end here. People pleasers don't lie because they're bad people. 

 24:30

We lie because we learned it wasn't safe to tell the truth, and our lies make perfect sense given our history, given the context of the Good Girl programming, given the context of how we as children are taught to disbelieve the truth in our bodies. 

 24:49

And we are not living in that context anymore in certain relationships. Some of us might be living in some of those contexts as adults, and I want to honor that, and I want to tell you, in those situations, you protect yourself. 

 25:04

But the work isn't to stop lying. The work is to build safety, to develop nervous system regulation skills, and to make conscious choices that are aligned with our values, and to find one place where we can start to be a little more truthful, even if it's just with ourselves. 

 25:27

So I want you to start noticing when you are lying or deflecting, and just ask yourself, what would I need to tell the truth here? What effect is this having? How can I honor both my need to tell the truth and my need for safety? 

 25:42

Because you deserve to be known. You deserve to be loved. You deserve to be seen for who you really are. And the ironic thing is that telling the truth leads to more relationships like that. If any of this episode has brought up some questions for you, I would love to hear what those are. 

 26:04

I would love to hear what kind of reactions you have, what it brings up for you. I'm really grateful to be able to explore this topic with you. Thanks again for listening. See you next week.

Episode 120 - INTERACTIVE EPISODE: Are People Pleasers Liars?

Lying is such an interesting topic—and after working with many women who feel stuck in patterns of people-pleasing, I’ve learned that lying and truth-telling are far more complex than they may seem. I’m not talking about lies meant to cause harm, but the everyday ones we tell to keep ourselves safe and comfortable: saying we’re fine when we’re not, or yes when we mean no. In this interactive episode, I’m introducing the framework I’ll be using to explore this topic and offering reflections to help you understand your patterns around people-pleasing and lying. Here’s what I cover:

• Why lying is not a character flaw of people-pleasers, but a survival strategy

• How childhood experiences influence our beliefs and behaviors around truth

• How lying creates a disconnect in our relationships—with ourselves and others

• Why telling the truth requires internal safety and nervous system regulation

• Reflection questions to help you notice why you may choose to lie in certain situations

Sign up for the free workshop on July 10th

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

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What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:58

So I have been working on an episode about lying for about 18 months now. It is something that I'm very, very interested in. From a personal perspective, I lied a lot growing up, I lied for attention when I didn't feel like I mattered. 

 01:14

I lied to get out of trouble. And I carried a lot of shame well into adulthood about lying because I was taught like everybody else, honesty is the best policy. There's this moral value in telling the truth. 

 01:29

But as I have worked with now thousands of women who are stuck in patterns of people pleasing, what I have learned is that lying and telling the truth is very complex. When I hear people pleasers kind of blanketly called liars, it really makes my blood boil because I don't even feel like that's the right subject to be talking about. 

 01:53

So what I want to do with this episode is just something a little different. I want it to be an interactive. I have a whole episode mapped out where we're going to dive into the psychology, the nervous system science, attachment theory, the works, and we're going to do that. 

 02:11

But this topic is so layered and so personal and so misunderstood that I want to do it a little differently. I want this to be an interactive episode. I want to talk a little bit in this episode about the framework that I'm going to be using. 

 02:27

And I want to give it to you so that this week you can be thinking about it, you can be studying the times you tell the truth and the times you don't in your own life. You can share some of those with me if you feel comfortable doing that. 

 02:41

I want to plant some seeds that might shift how you see your own lies. And I really would love to hear from you. Because here's the thing, when we shame people for lying, when they are just trying to survive, we miss the real issue. 

 02:56

We miss the real issue: the brilliant adaptations that your nervous system has come up with to keep you safe. We miss the impossible positions that you've been put in where the truth didn't feel like an option. 

 03:09

And we miss answering or talking about the real cost of our life. So I'm gonna set up some of the framework and give you some foundation. I would love to hear from you and to hear what you think and to hear some of your stories. 

 03:25

So let's get clear on what I'm actually talking about here. I am not talking about pathological lying or people who lie for personal gain or to manipulate or to harm other people. I'm not talking about those lies. 

 03:41

I'm talking about when we say I'm fine when we're not fine. When we say I have other plans when we just need some space but don't feel like we can ask for that. When we say I don't mind, when we absolutely do mind. 

 03:58

When we suppress our opinions. When we make up things that we have to do because we don't feel like we can tell the truth. That's what I'm talking about. And I don't believe those are character flaws. 

 04:12

I believe they're survival strategies that made perfect sense in the environments where you learn them, which was usually as a child. So the first question I want you to consider is what did you learn as a child about telling the truth? 

 04:31

By far and away, when I asked this question to the women that I work with, they say, oh, I learned that I was supposed to tell the truth but then sometimes I did tell the truth and I got punished. I was, you know, I got disconnected from my parents. 

 04:49

I got in trouble and I absolutely learned that it wasn't safe to be myself, to tell the truth. let my opinions out. And so that's the first question I want you to consider is what did you learn about telling the truth as a child? 

 05:07

Hey, really quick, I want to let you know that the next round of stop people pleasing my group coaching program is starting on August 12. And I'm super excited. I want to give you a taste of the work that we do inside the program. 

 05:21

And so I'm teaching two free workshops. I don't want you to just understand people pleasing, I want you to have real usable skills to actually do something about it. So if you've ever said yes, when you met no, or kept quiet when you had something to say, or twisted yourself into a pretzel trying to avoid disappointing someone, first of all, you're not alone. 

 05:42

You're exactly who this program is for and exactly who these workshops are for. So on Thursday, July 10, I'm going to be teaching you how to disappoint someone and not die. And on Tuesday, July 22, I'm going to be teaching you how to say what you really want to say. 

 06:00

Check out the show notes for all the details about the workshops and how to join the next round of Stop People Pleasing. I would love to work with you. Second thing I want you to consider is that the problem isn't the lying. 

 06:15

It is actually way more complex than that. Lying is an old survival mechanism that was absolutely necessary in those moments when we didn't feel safe to tell the truth as children. Sometimes as adults, we are actually able to tell the truth in a safe way. 

 06:39

But because we're still running this old survival mechanism, we miss opportunities when it might be safe to tell the truth because we're so conditioned to do otherwise. The second problem that I see with lying is that telling the truth is actually the doorway to real, vulnerable, authentic, connected relationships. 

 07:04

I have so many clients who don't feel seen, who don't feel accepted, who don't feel like all of them is welcome and honored. And it's not necessarily because that is true. It's again, going back to the first problem, it's an old survival mechanism that keeps us constantly looking around, trying to decide how much of the truth is safe to say, how much of our needs are safe to reveal, how much of our wants are safe to put into words. 

 07:36

And because we have an old survival mechanism running, we actually miss opportunities to deepen the authenticity, the intimacy, the vulnerability in some of our relationships by being truthful. And then the last thing that I want you to just keep in mind is that telling the truth requires safety. 

 08:01

It requires us to be able to create internal nervous system safety. It requires us to take really good care of ourselves when we tell the truth and it doesn't go the way we want it to. And that's a skill that many of us were never taught, but it is something that we can learn. 

 08:20

You deserve real, authentic, connected relationships where you can tell the truth. You deserve to have safety, internal safety. You deserve to be able to learn to regulate your nervous system and to be so good and kind and gracious with yourself when things don't go well. 

 08:39

So often we lie when we think something isn't gonna go well if we tell the truth and that makes so much sense. But that really puts us between a rock and a hard place because without telling the truth, we can't have those relationships that we deserve. 

 08:56

When we're chronically disconnected from our bodies and our own truth, we can't have that relationship with ourselves. When we're constantly living in fear of other people's emotions, we can't have those relationships. 

 09:09

And those relationships are what I want every single woman to have, at least one, where all of us is honored, all of us is seen, all of us is welcome, and that means telling the truth. So you can kind of see how complex this is, right? 

 09:26

It's not just as simple as honesty is the best policy. We're going to get into it, but here's what I want you to do. Over this next week, I want you to notice. When you find yourself deflecting or saying something that isn't true, don't judge it. 

 09:43

Just notice it. I want you to ask yourself, what would happen if I told the truth here? What am I trying to avoid? What do I need that I'm afraid to ask for directly? How am I making the truth smaller? 

 09:59

How am I editing it? And what is my best guess about what I think would happen? And then lastly, I want you to notice where in your life it does feel safe to tell the truth, and why. And then where does it absolutely not feel safe to tell the truth and why? 

 10:19

And then if you feel so inclined, I would love to hear about it. Send me your stories. Send me your questions. Send me the moments when you realize you're not telling the truth, and it might be a safe place to do it. 

 10:32

Because I really want to hear from you. You can email me sara@sarafisk.coach. S-A-R-A-F-I-S-K, sarafisk.coach. You can always send me an email there. You can DM me. I want you to tell me about any of the answers to those questions, or maybe you have a lie that you feel really guilty about. 

 10:56

Or maybe there's a time when you really knew that telling the truth felt dangerous. Again, what you notice about the relationships where you feel like you can be honest, and what you wish people understood about why you deflect. 

 11:11

Because here's what I really know. After eight years of coaching now, thousands of women, your stories really matter. And if we can put this in personal context for you, it's gonna be even more powerful. 

 11:24

My hope is that there are more spaces where we can tell the truth, where we can stay connected to ourselves, where our relationships can become more deeply connected and vulnerable because we're able to be more truthful. 

 11:41

So I can't wait to hear from you. Thanks so much for listening.

Episode 119 - Patriarchy 101: How It Was Created and What To Do About It Now

Patriarchy is a system that has shaped our world for thousands of years, which can make unpacking the topic feel overwhelming. Today, I offer a basic overview of patriarchy with specific examples that show how we got here and how it continues to influence us today. Awareness is the key to greater power and greater choice in your life. I hope that this episode provides you with insights and practical ways to claim both. Here’s what I cover: 

• The complexities of patriarchy beyond the idea that “men are in charge” 

• How patriarchy was developed as a social technology in response to historical issues

• Laws and political systems that were created to entrench patriarchy in society

• How to recognize patriarchy in action in today’s society

• The ways patriarchy is internalized by people of all genders

• How humans created this system, so we can also choose to evolve beyond it

I can’t wait for you to listen!

Book Recommendations for Further Reading:

• The Creation of Patriarchy by Gerda Lerner - A comprehensive historical analysis of how patriarchal systems developed and became institutionalized

• Untamed by Glennon Doyle - A powerful exploration of unlearning patriarchal conditioning and discovering your authentic self

• The Authority Gap by Mary Ann Sieghart - Examines how women are systematically undermined and taken less seriously than men across all areas of life

• bell hooks: All About Love by bell hooks - Explores how patriarchal systems damage our capacity for love and authentic connection

Research and Studies Referenced:

Archaeological evidence on egalitarian pre-agricultural societies:

• “The Gender Equality Paradox” - https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/04/16/1717312115

• National Academy of Sciences research on prehistoric gender roles - https://www.nationalacademies.org/based-on-science/prehistoric-gender-roles

• How Did Patriarchy Actually Begin?

Medical research gender bias:

• “Gender bias in pain assessment and treatment recommendations” - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11441203/

• Journal of Law, Medicine & Ethics study on pain treatment disparities - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1111/jlme.12040

The mental load research:

• Arlie Hochschild’s “The Second Shift” research - https://sociology.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/faculty/hochschild/pdf/SecondShift.pdf

• Emotional labor studies - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0003122412472680

Confidence gap research:

• Kay & Shipman Harvard Business Review article - https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified

• The Atlantic confidence gap study - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/05/the-confidence-gap/359090/

Language and gender studies:

• Linguistic Society of America research - https://www.linguisticsociety.org/resource/language-and-gender

• Gender bias in language patterns study - https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-17914-001

• The Languages with Built-in Sexism

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

00:57

Every once in a while, I get messages from people who listen to the podcast and I read and I respond to every single one. And a while back, I got two messages thanking me for the episode I did on why women are leaving the church. 

 01:11

That's episode 108. And both messages asked me to do a podcast episode specifically about like the basics of patriarchy. Many of us know the term and what it represents, but we still want to have a better understanding. 

 01:26

And so today's episode, calling it patriarchy 101, I'm going to try and give you an overview, more like a well-informed walkthrough of this system. It's not going to be a deep academic dive. In fact, as I was preparing it, and as I've been working on it for a couple of weeks, I just kept taking deep dives into really specific kind of subcategories of patriarchy. 

 01:48

It's almost at least it feels endless to me. So I'm trying to pull back and do more of an overview with some specific examples of not just how we got it. but how it influences us today. So this episode is for you, Jane, and for the author of the anonymous request, because it's really, really important that we understand this system that has been shaping our world for thousands and thousands of years. 

 02:15

Being aware is the key to greater power and greater choice. That's how it always is. And so as we kind of dive into patriarchy, I want you to understand that it's like the gravity or invisible water we're all swimming in or the operating system that is just kind of behind the scenes. 

 02:33

And it's important to see it that way, because although what we're looking at today is the result of thousands of years of patriarchy, it just becomes so normal to us that we miss it. But my hope with this episode is to give you some basic, a basic overview of how we got it and some things to look for and so that that greater choice and greater power is available to you. 

 03:00

So let's start with the basics. When most people hear patriarchy, they think it means men are in charge. And you're right. And it's also more complex than that. Patriarchy is a social system. So like the operating system running in the background of our entire society, it is a hierarchical structure that privileges or rewards masculine traits or traits that are typically associated with masculinity. 

 03:31

More masculine perspectives and devalues traits that are associated more with femininity. So aggression, competition, logic, emotional detachment, right? Those are associated with masculinity and traits associated with femininity, collaboration, intuition, emotional intelligence, nurturing are more associated with femininity. 

 03:59

And notice I'm saying associated with because these aren't inherently male or female traits. They're just labeled that way by the system. And the system of patriarchy gives the power and the control and the rulemaking ability to men in patriarchy. 

 04:20

Patriarchy wasn't always the default. In fact, anthropologists have identified at least 160 existing matrilineal societies across the Americas, Africa, and Asia. And in those societies, people belonged to their mother's family over generation and inheritance passed from mother to daughter. 

 04:43

Archaeological evidence actually shows us that many early human societies were actually more egalitarian labor was shared, there weren't certain jobs for certain genders. And that was how those communities operated and thrived. 

 05:00

So what happened? The shift began roughly 10,000 years ago with what we now call the agricultural revolution. So humans transitioned from hunter-gatherer societies, sometimes nomadic, sometimes not, but they made the transition to farming communities, where they stayed in one place, where they farmed land and used its resources to be able to survive. 

 05:27

And the reason that that is so important is because suddenly land ownership really mattered. Property could be claimed, property could be accumulated, and with property came the need to control inheritance. 

 05:44

And this, I think, is where it gets really interesting and dark. To control inheritance, what do you need to control? you need to control reproduction, right? Because if a man has amassed a bunch of property and he wants to pass it on, he needs a male heir. 

 06:02

But to control reproduction, you have to control women's bodies and women's sexuality because a man wants to make sure that his property is being passed down to his actual legitimate bloodline. And so you have to control what women are wearing, who they are sleeping with, what they do when they get pregnant. 

 06:25

And there is your foundation for patriarchy. Societies became more complex and these power structures become more entrenched. It wasn't just the agricultural revolution that contributed to the rise of patriarchy. 

 06:41

There was also a lot of war and conquest going on where violent nomadic culture sometimes attacked and pillaged more peaceful societies and that required men to defend and protect their homes and wealth because of their superior biology, they're bigger, they're stronger. 

 07:00

And that further established male dominance, right? Men took on the task of providing things that required physical strength and that often meant that women were relegated to domestic roles. And that led to that perception of value, right? 

 07:16

Who do we value more? The protectors, the ones who are stronger and bigger and the ones who are raising children in the home and cooking, not so much. And then as the agricultural revolution started and people began to own land and there was war and conquest, people needed to be protected. 

 07:33

And so states or entities formed where there were people in charge who had more money and more wealth protecting those who didn't have as much wealth, but that just solidified male authority because men were the landowners, men were the authorities, men were the soldiers, men had the tools. 

 07:53

and were capable of the violence in, again, broad strokes. And so all of this contributed to solidified men in power, solidifying men as the ones who were in charge and making the rules and protecting what they had amassed and what they wanted to pass on to their children. 

 08:13

And then you have religious institutions stepping in to make those rules consistent with the word of God then you have legal systems created to enforce those rules and then you have economic systems which reward this whole setup. 

 08:36

Marriage became a transaction in many ways. I love a good Jane Austen book and movie, but during that time women are exchanged for land, right? For status, for alliances. And women then become property adjacent, right? 

 08:57

They're owned, they're exchanged, oftentimes having no say in who they marry. And this is where we see the roots of things like dowries or a bride price. We also see the legal coming about of something called coverture, which is where a woman's legal identity vanishes into her husband's. 

 09:20

That's where we get the fact that I was Sarah Bybee. And when I got married, now I'm Sarah Fisk. You know, I lost my identity, my family, it was absorbed into my husband's. This is also where we get kind of the foundation of purity culture, because what started as maybe a practical concern about inheritance now becomes a complete worldview about human nature, women are lascivious and a whorish if we don't control them through what they wear, who they're allowed to be with, what parts of their bodies were allowed to see, and it becomes a social order. Now, this wasn't destiny or biology in action. This was humans making calculated decisions about power and resources. 

 10:18

Patriarchy was essentially a social technology, right? Designed to solve specific economic challenges and issues of the day, mainly to control inheritance when land became wealth, but it wasn't the only possible solution. 

 10:35

And many societies organized themselves differently for much longer. And what I want you to hear is that like any outdated technology, what solved yesterday's problems is creating today's problems. We created... 

 10:53

humans created this system of patriarchy, which means we can also choose to evolve beyond it. There are a lot of ways in which this sticky system kind of entrenched itself. Touching on just a couple, in terms of legal and political systems, I want you to just remember that women couldn't vote in the US until 1920. 

 11:19

That's only 104 years ago. And we are having to undo a lot of the ways that patriarchy was entrenched in the system for the thousands and thousands of years before that. Roe v. Wade happened in 1973, the year I was born. 

 11:36

And that established a woman's right to abortion in the first trimester, but it has since been overturned. And now bodily autonomy varies wildly from state to state. Marital rape. wasn't illegal in all 50 states until 1993, two years after I graduated high school. 

 12:01

Today, there's a lot of ways that this still shows up in our legal and political systems. Only 27% of Congress is female. That's wild. For being more than half the population, women have 27% female Congress people representing not just the people they serve, but representing the experience and with the context and the female experience being represented. 

 12:30

In terms of finances, this is one of the most important aspects of patriarchy because patriarchy essentially precluded women from any significant financial gain, autonomy, or being able to amass any kind of wealth. 

 12:47

That is what hobbles us for thousands and thousands of years because if you're going to leave your husband with no money, where are you going to go? Before the 1800s, English law is what established coverture that basically a married woman's legal identity was absorbed into her husband. 

 13:08

She could not own property, she could not sign contracts, she could not keep wages she earned. Her children, her labor, and her earnings legally belonged to her husband. That continued for a while, and it's not really until the 1860s where Mississippi, ironically, passes the first law allowing married women to own property in their own name. 

 13:34

1860, not that long ago. Other states followed, and there was some expansion of women's rights to keep their income, their own property, and to enter contracts. There were some significant acts after that. 

 13:49

You may have heard of the homestead. Act that allowed single women and widows to claim federal land in the West. However, married women were excluded unless they had the permission of their husband. Throughout the late 1800s and early 1900s wage earning rights kind of begin to shift and kind of slowly married women gain the right to retain more of their earnings. 

 14:15

But it still was the men, the husbands who controlled bank accounts, who controlled access to credit, and most of the finances. The game changer really happened in 1974. I mean, let that date just sink in for a minute. 

 14:33

I had just been born. The Equal Credit Opportunity Act made it illegal for banks to require a husband's signature for a woman to get a credit card, a car loan, a mortgage or any line of credit. And before this, many banks routinely denied women. 

 14:53

Didn't matter. Single divorce, widowed, it didn't even matter. Even if you had a steady income, it didn't matter. So that was the year, 1974, that women really have the full power of the economic engine that we contribute to in many different ways. 

 15:10

Unseen labor, unpaid labor, home labor, allowing husbands to go off and earn were taking care of everything at home. That was the first year where it became available, the full power of the economic engine of capitalism became available to a woman. 

 15:26

And so, so many women stayed in marriages that were unhappy, that were abusive, because they simply had no other choice. And then finally, in 1981, the Supreme Court struck down any state laws because they still existed, which allowed husbands to unilaterally control joint marital property, including wages and homes. 

 15:52

And so that really kind of firmly established equal control over shared assets, 1981. And so the effects, the financial effects of that legacy are still very obvious today, because today, women in general, if you take all women full-time, year-round working women, we earn 84 cents for every dollar earned by men. 

 16:20

And it gets worse when you break it down by race and ethnicity. Asian American women actually fare a little better, 93 cents on the dollar. But there's some variation in there, because I noticed that Vietnamese women, still are at the 82 cents, Bhutanese women are at 49 cents, per every dollar that white non-Hispanic men earn. 

 16:45

White women, 78 cents. $0.99 on the dollar, black women, 66 cents on the dollar, Native American women, 55 cents on the dollar, and Latino women, 52 cents on the dollar. Now, it's important to note that these numbers don't control for occupation, experience, or education. 

 17:06

They reflect overall wage gaps. But even when we look at those factors, women still experience a significant pay gap. Often, there is discrimination, unpaid labor expectations, caregiving penalties. Maternity leave is still woefully inadequate, and a lot of systemic bias against women that comes from these thousands and thousands of years when men controlled the wealth. 

 17:40

Okay, so how do you spot patriarchy in action today? It's everywhere once you know what to look for. Language. Oh my gosh, this took me down a rabbit. There are so many ways that we use language that is steeped in patriarchy that we're not even aware of. 

 17:58

The word hysterical, right? How many women are described, oh my gosh, she's hysterical, comes from the Greek word for uterus. Do you notice how calling someone a pussy is an insult, but having balls is how we describe bravery. 

 18:16

An older unmarried man is a bachelor, but what do we call an older unmarried woman? A spinster or a cat lady. Men are always just mister, while women are called by their marital status, miss or misses. 

 18:33

Miss, MS, the designation where you don't want to disclose your marital status was a scandalous addition to the English language. What do we call somebody who runs a board, the chairman of the board? 

 18:46

Police men, right? Man is just, it's assumed in so many different professions. We even describe penetrative sex from the man's perspective. It's him doing the penetrating, women are just the object. There is a social theorist and activist, his name is Jason Katz, and I love this quote from his TED talk. 

 19:10

It's linked in the notes. Whenever there are stories told about women's sexual assault and trauma in the news, he made this really brilliant observation. We talk about how many women were raped last year, not about how many men raped women. 

 19:28

We talk about how many girls in a school district were harassed last year, not how many boys harassed girls. So you can see how the use of the passive voice has a political effect. It shifts the focus off. 

 19:45

of men and boys, and on to girls and women. Even the term violence against women is problematic. It's passive construction. There is no active agent in the sentence. So men get off the hook, even in our language, for the violence that is perpetrated by them in the way that we talk about it. 

 20:07

Language reveals our values, and patriarchal language consistently devalues the feminine and makes women objects that are just acted on by men. There is a lot of patriarchy that shows up in our professional settings, right? 

 20:24

The confidence gap that a lot of women experience. That's not because women are naturally less confident. It's because we've been socialized to doubt ourselves while men have been socialized to project confidence, even when they don't have it or it's not based on anything. 

 20:41

When women are assertive, they're bossy. when men are assertive, they're leaders. In relationships, we've talked a lot about the mental load phenomenon, where women carry the invisible burden of managing household logistics, even when both partners work full time. 

 21:01

Or the way women are usually expected to be the relationship managers, the emotional regulators, and social coordinators. Again, in broad terms, there are many individual couples who have flipped this dynamic, and there are men who participate fully in the emotional load and in relationship management. 

 21:22

Another really, really insidious place where patriarchy shows up for us today is in healthcare. Medical research. Until 1993, this one blows my mind every time, medical studies excluded women often and used men and then just applied the results to everybody. 

 21:41

It wasn't until 1993 that women were required to be part of medical studies. That led to so many misdiagnoses and inadequate treatment for women. In women's pain, it is much more likely for women's pain to be dismissed as psychological or emotional. 

 22:04

Reproductive health is a big place where patriarchy shows up for us today. Birth control side effects that would have never been tolerated in male medications are the norm for women. And also lack of pain management medication when it comes to things like IUD insertions are the norm. 

 22:24

We're just expected to put up with it. The assumption that birth control is the women's job underlies all of these issues that we're talking about. It's just the woman's job to prevent pregnancy. Did you know we have had latex condoms since the and no significant developments in contraception that are available to the public until today. 

 22:53

That's it, the condom. Since the 1920s, that's all we got. There is a male birth control gel that is known as ADAM, the name of my first son, interestingly enough, that was created in 2015. It is still in trials. 

 23:10

Some internet sources cited lack of funding because it's just not that important for men to prevent pregnancy because women have got it. But here was the kicker when I was reading about ADAM. ADAM qualifies for local anesthesia. 

 23:27

Yeah, pain medication included. Meanwhile, female IUD insertion is largely performed without any pain relief at all and can be incredibly, incredibly painful. The last place I want to touch on is media and entertainment. 

 23:44

Maybe this is because I sat through the first hour of the new Mission Impossible movie and just I had to get up because while there were some examples of women in leadership, I mean the president in the movie is a woman and the naval ship commander is a woman, I realized that there's some great placement of women in decision making and power positions. 

 24:08

Most movies fail what is called the Bechdel test and the Bechdel test is, are there two women talking in this movie about something other than a man? Most movies fail. In Mission Impossible specifically, there was a quote unquote strong female character but she can fight, she can defend herself very well but she still looks to Tom Cruise and is like, what's the plan? 

 24:42

What are we gonna do? Only you can save us and I just, I just couldn't, I just could not. Female characters in movies are often defined by their relationships to men, right? And male characters are characterized or praised for the action that they take and you know, I don't know what I expected from Mission Impossible, it's really just an homage to Tom Cruise but whatever. 

 25:08

It was interesting to me that even in 2025, you can have a quote unquote strong female character who can punch and kill and kick and fight but she can't make decisions on her own. So the reason that all of this matters so much is that patriarchy doesn't just exist in our movies and in our financial systems and in, you know, out there. 

 25:32

It lives inside our bodies and our heads and we've internalized all of these messages to some degree because we were raised in this system and so in turn, The internalized patriarchy just means the way that we think on the inside about our bodies, about our abilities, about our time and energy, about our voices and opinions, and all of the limitations that we place on ourselves because we have this patriarchal system playing in the background telling us what we can and cannot do. 

 26:11

So much of the messaging that we get about our bodies is so that we are meeting the quote-unquote beauty standards that were set by men so that we are, quote-unquote, pleasing to look at. Notice how even body hair on men, totally fine. 

 26:32

On women, it's disgusting, right? That's not actually true. I'm just repeating kind of widely believed social norms. So our menstruation, we have to hide it, right? I remember my mom teaching me how to wrap up a pad or a tampon so that, quote unquote, nobody knew what it was, right? 

 26:50

That was really important. A lot of us still obsess about what our bodies look like. I recently talked with a group of women and so many of them talked about how often we're thinking about our body every single day, every single time we stand in front of a mirror, every time we're putting clothes on, when we're getting undressed, right? 

 27:09

It's almost constant. There's so much internalized patriarchy around what we think we're good at, right? About our abilities, not wanting to seem too ambitious, thinking that we should be good at caregiving when it's not something that feels effortless to us. 

 27:30

So a lot of those ideas, I go into more depth in other podcast episodes, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on that. But what I do want to highlight is that because these thoughts just feel so normal or natural, we rarely question them. 

 27:47

But every single one of the ways that we are taught to be small, to be quiet, to be accommodating, come from patriarchy. Those are not our thoughts. They're patriarchy's thoughts that we have inherited and we just keep thinking. 

 28:03

And patriarchy hurts men too. For men, internalized patriarchy shows up as believing that emotions are weak, feeling the pressure to be the providers and the protectors at all costs. That's an incredible stress. 

 28:18

Difficulty with vulnerability or intimacy, not knowing how they feel, not being able to name their feelings or feel comfortable with feelings. They're competitive rather than collaborative in many relationships with other men or discomfort with women in positions of authority. 

 28:34

Those are just a few of the ways. And for everyone, we just need to constantly be aware. that leadership is designed to favor masculine traits, but leadership doesn't equal masculine traits. Caring doesn't equal feminine weakness. 

 28:55

There's so much suffering that we are now doing because we have not allowed women and traditionally more quote unquote feminine traits to be a part of our governing bodies, our leaders, those who are shaping the rules. 

 29:13

I wanna be really clear about something. Understanding patriarchy isn't about blaming men or making anyone feel guilty for existing in the system. We are all products of it. We didn't create it. Humans created it before we got here, right? 

 29:26

We're all products of it and men suffer too. Toxic masculinity is literally patriarchy harming men. This is about recognizing the system that we've inherited that is not working for most of us. It's creating stress. 

 29:43

disconnection, inequity, and a lot of missed opportunities for everyone. When women are discouraged from leadership, we literally lose half of the potential leaders in the world. When men are discouraged from emotional intelligence, we lose half the potential healers and nurturers. 

 30:05

When non-binary people are forced into boxes that don't fit them, we lose their unique perspectives entirely. So what do we do with this? Take a deep breath with me. It's a lot. And I want you to just give yourself permission to feel whatever you're feeling right now. 

 30:27

Anger, sadness, grief, overwhelm, maybe even some relief at having some of this named. It's all valid. Learning about this can feel pretty intense. Second, just remember, awareness is the key to choice and power. 

 30:44

You can't transform what you don't see. And then lastly, just notice the patriarchal patterns in your own life without judgment. Where do you police your own behavior? Where do you make assumptions based on gender? 

 31:00

When do you value masculine traits over feminine traits? It's just something to be curious and generous about. And finally, remember that this is about progress, right? It's not about perfection. Every single time we value emotional intelligence, collaboration, anytime we are kind of bringing those quote unquote more feminine traits. 

 31:27

And again, that's just how they're called in our society. I really don't even like the fact they're just more traditionally assumed than I guess I can get on board with that. But just remember that patriarchy is like gravity. 

 31:40

It's always here, affecting everything. and unlike gravity, it's a human creation, which means we can change it. So I want you to just let yourself feel what you're gonna feel and look at small ways in your life that you can value masculine traits and feminine traits together. 

 32:04

You can see where your own internalized patriarchy shows up with generosity and with graciousness. There are a ton of resources in the show notes for today. I wanted you to have everything that I looked at when I was preparing this. 

 32:19

And if you have curiosity, you can do some more deep diets there. And I even included some books that might be interesting if you want to continue to read. As always, I love your comments. Let me know what you think. 

 32:31

Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week. 

Episode 118 - ADHD, Perimenopause, and the Good Girl Trap with Jenny Hobbs

Parenting and relationships can take on a unique dynamic when neurodivergence is part of your life—whether it's your own diagnosis or that of your partner or kids. Today, you’ll hear my conversation with Jenny Hobbs, a physician and a life coach who works with women navigating ADHD and autism in themselves or their families. We explore what ADHD looks like for women, why it often goes undiagnosed until adulthood, and the range of resources available to help. Here’s what we cover:

• Why there tends to be an overlap between ADHD and autism diagnoses 

• How good girl programming affects the way neurodivergence shows up in women

• Masking techniques make ADHD in women harder to recognize

• Specific signs and patterns that may indicate ADHD

• The link between ADHD diagnoses and perimenopause 

• Practical strategies for managing ADHD regardless of your financial situation

I can’t wait for you to listen.

Mentioned resources:

https://getcoached.jennyhobbsmd.com/adhdtoolkit

https://www.meganannaneff.com/

https://libbyapp.com/

Taking Charge of Adult ADHD by Russell Barkley

Dr. Jenny Hobbs is a life coach and practicing physician who specializes in supporting working moms in neurodivergent families. Diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and raising an autistic/ADHD family of her own, she brings both personal insight and professional expertise to her work. Dr. Hobbs helps overwhelmed, burned-out moms navigate the unique challenges of parenting and marriage in neurodivergent households—so they can stop feeling like they're failing and start enjoying their family again.

Find Jenny here:

www.jennyhobbsmd.com

https://www.instagram.com/jennyhobbsmd/

https://www.facebook.com/jennyhobbsmd 

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

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Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:00

Jenny Hobbs is on the podcast today and I'm so excited because, oh my gosh, this perimenopause ADHD roller coaster that I've been on, that so many of my clients have been on is just such a trip and there's like not like stop the ride I want to get off. There's not that option at this point yet. So I'm really, really glad, Jenny, that you agreed to have this conversation because not only are you a physician and a mom and someone who has ADHD, but this is a population you work with. So I'm so glad you're here. 

Jenny Hobbs 01:30

Me too. This is one of my favorite topics. I can talk about it for hours. So I will try to pull myself back. But yes, I'm Jenny Hobbs. I am a doctor. I work as a hospital based doctor, actually what's called a nocturness. So I only work nights in the hospital. It's kind of a funny job title. And I also am a certified life coach. And I work with working moms who have neurodivergent families. So I love working with moms who either have ADHD or autism themselves, or maybe their kids or their spouse has ADHD or autism. And I find that these women, which I can relate to, because I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and I have two kids who have autism and ADHD, these moms who are like me are often really burned out and exhausted and overwhelmed. And parenting and marriage is really uniquely different when you have neurodivergence in yourself or your family members. So, I work as a life coach with those women as well as doing my nights in the hospital. And I am based in Seattle, Washington. I have two kids who are now eight and a half and 11, which is crazy. And I've been married for 20 years. My husband is a stay-at-home dad. That's actually another type of woman that I often work with is women who are the primary earner and their husband is staying at home with the kids, which is also a unique dynamic, but one that works really well for our family. So that's neat. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:54

Why is everything changing? Why is it like? I mean, one of the questions that I've kind of had about myself is, did I always have ADHD and just not know it? Was I able to just cope in different ways? Like, why is it so late in life that so many of us are finding this out? Either ADHD or autism or AU, ADHD, is that the term? Let's tell me that term. So we get it right. 

Jenny Hobbs 03:25

Yeah, I think they've started calling it odd DHD now. So autism and ADHD. So they're two separate diagnoses. But there does tend to be some overlap.And also kind of a lot of overlap in family like tends to be we call them neuro divergent people. So people with autism ADHD, and a few other less common disorders, neuro divergent people, whether it's autism or ADHD, they tend to kind of flock together to find each other. And they also are very genetic. So some of us we kind of say we have an odd DHD family, right? So a lot of overlap. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:02

Do we know why there is so much overlap between autism and ADHD? 

Jenny Hobbs 04:08

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. There's a woman, we can put some of the show notes, there's a woman, Megan Anna Neff is her name. And she is a neuropsychologist who was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. And she has talked about how when you look at the genes, there actually do seem to be some like in your genetic material, autism and ADHD do seem to be sort of like associated near one another. So, they do think there is some genetic basis for that. I don't know the details of it. But I think it makes a lot of sense based on what we see when we actually, you know, look at groups of families and things like that. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:43

One of the reasons that I wanted to have this conversation is I find a lot of relevance to like, you know, I come at this from like the good girl paradigm, like trying to break out of patterns that keep us, you know, small and not asking for what we need. And, and I have a couple of, you know, points of view on that, but I'm wondering for you and what you see in just, you know, your client population and in maybe just your patient population, why do you, what do you think is the relevance of the way we were programmed to be good girls and how our autism or ADHD or both manifest? 

Jenny Hobbs 05:21

Oh, yeah, it's so interesting. So when you think about neurodivergent types, so autism, ADHD, those are patterns and ways of interacting with the world that are different from sort of the standard middle norm, right? If you think of us all on a continuum, they kind of fall further to the edges of that continuum, right? And I think, as you and I've talked about before, what is normal is a good question. So there is definitely, you know, a wide range. But when we do studies of certain traits, people who have autism and or ADHD can kind of fall further on those edges. So when you're a child, right, and you're interacting with the world differently, but you're told that a good girl does this, a good girl sits quietly, a good girl listens, a good girl always has her homework turned in one time, right? All these things, a good girl doesn't ever get too angry or have to, you know, let her emotions get the best of her, all those things can be harder to do when you are a person who is not sort of in the middle part of that continuum, right? And so if you have ADHD or autism, both of those disorders are really like disorder is a question really, right? Both of those neurotypes have a harder time managing their emotion, right? So their executive functions, the frontal part of their brain that says, okay, we need to be quiet now, we need to listen, we need to get organized, those executive functions are not as well developed when you have ADHD or autism, right? So now if you're in a world, a society that wants you to be a good girl, and a good girl is defined as being organized and calm and quiet and all of those things, that's gonna be so much harder to do, just if you're naturally wired a little bit differently. I like that language, some people use you're just differently wired. And so it's gonna be that much more challenging to fit into the good girl paradigm. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:12

I look back on how many masking or techniques or little shortcuts that I had created for myself that were so important in keeping me on track, keeping me organized, keeping me performing and doing what I want. Funny story, I actually had to get a new phone and I didn't do the backup right, so it didn't restore all of my 500 alarms that I had already programmed into my phone, so I got my new phone. I didn't have any alarms. I used to set alarms constantly for myself to keep myself on track, and I was so devastated that I had to go back and redo all my alarms. What do you see in your adult women in terms of those type of techniques or masking or just like all the ways that they try to make themselves conform to what is expected of them? 

Jenny Hobbs 08:07

Oh, yeah, it is so interesting. And I think this is one reason it is so difficult to diagnose ADHD. I had the most experience with ADHD. I think it's one of the reasons it's so difficult to diagnose in women is because many of us have gotten so good at compensating for our natural difficulty, right? And I say when I was diagnosed, I remember the person doing the evaluation asked me a question like, do you have to keep, you know, your keys and whatever in like the exact same place where you lose them? And I was like, I mean, doesn't everyone have to do that? That's like just good sense, right? And I have like a million strategies like this, timers and planners. I think if you look at people who are, like, really obsessed with planners and organizing and their schedule, right, and to-do list and checking them off a lot of times, those are strategies someone who's wired with ADHD has developed because they know if they don't, they will forget and the consequences of forgetting have often been really severe, right? You know, problems in school, problems with your parents. And so if you are raised with this idea that like a good girl always does everything on time and pays her taxes, then, you know, all these things and checks off all the boxes, right? And it's hard for you to do, you're gonna be that much more rigidly clinging to those external systems, right? And it's harder to let go of them. And so what's really interesting is that a great example would be being on time, I would say the average person who has ADHD has a hard time getting to places, you know, right on time. But some people have been so strictly taught that it is a moral failing to be late, right? So if you have ADHD wiring, you don't know it, and your family teaches you that like, only horrible people are ever late, right? And they always make you get everywhere early, you might actually be extra early everywhere all the time, because you've like overcompensated. Does that make sense? And you might be actually more anxious than another person about making sure because maybe you're, you know, you're gonna forget all these things. And it's so much harder for you to get it together. And so it adds to what you see is a lot of anxiety and overcompensating. And sometimes that can really mask the symptom of ADHD that you would otherwise see. Does that make sense? And each person has such different strategy that can be hard to take out. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:24

I'm thinking of a friend who meets that description perfectly, right? It's literally a moral failing. She was really punished, you know, for being late, told how inconsiderate she was. And so she's early everywhere, but always has this anxiety when there's time to go. And so if she's filling out, you know, a signs, signs of ADHD symptom, you know, form, she's not going to check chronically late. 

Jenny Hobbs 10:47

because she's not. Exactly, yeah. And I think they've done, this is one of the really interesting things. There are some people who've done a lot of work on diagnosing ADHD in adults because it really presents differently than in children. And so there are actually some lists of symptoms that are more helpful and useful for diagnosis in adults. And so I think it does include being chronically late, but it also includes some other things, right? And you don't have to have all of the things. So that's not, for example, the only thing. And another example of this would be many people with ADHD, they may not be chronically late, but they may have this experience that if they have an appointment at two o'clock, right? They're not quite sure how long everything's gonna take before they get there, right? And so they may feel like they kinda are like sitting around all day having difficulty planning and organizing and doing anything because of this looming appointment that they don't wanna be late for. And so if you think about that, it actually kinda touches more on what ADHD is really about, which is like difficulty planning and organizing and structuring without getting really overwhelmed. Does that make sense? So it's less about whether you're on time or not and more about how difficult it is for you to manage the flow of your day because of that difficulty with time. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:06

It makes so much sense. I read this somewhere and I just, it almost, well, it did make me tear up because it's like, that's me. It's like for me in time, there's either right now or everything in the future. I just have a really hard time like judging. It's like if I have 15 minutes, I literally think I have time to make myself a sandwich, go brush my hair, clean out my purse before I go to the doctor, download the podcast that I want it. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, damn it. I have to be there in two minutes, and it's a 15-minute drive. There's really something that's been frustrating. And I think the sad things, or if you're listening to this and you're like, ah, I really feel that I think the saddest thing that I see, and I'm sure you do too as well, is that what happens is a constant inner monologue of criticism and judgment and self-doubt where the inability of this prefrontal cortex executive function to happen the way it should become something that is wrong with us. So not only are we now late, but we're beating ourselves up for the 15-minute drive, apologizing profusely when we get there, feeling shame, feeling, you know, scared or anxious. It's not just the executive dysfunction. It's all of the criticism and the judgment that a lot of us live with as well when this isn't going the way it should go. 

Jenny Hobbs 13:33

And there's so many interesting things with this. One is that, you know, obviously pretty much all humans and particularly more women and people of color and things like that grow up with a lot of negative messaging, right? And that inner critic, that's where that voice comes from. But when you have ADHD, right, studies show you get a lot more negative messaging than another child, right? And so it does build up, and you have more and more of that over time and more and more of that to overcome. And if you're a woman, you're less likely to get diagnosed as a child. And so to your point, you don't have an explanation. And another thing that Megan Anna Neff says, it's just so great is when you don't have an accurate narrative for what's going on, you will revert to a personal narrative. And I might've got that quote slightly wrong, but you will revert to a narrative that like something is wrong with me if you don't have an accurate explanation, right? And so like you said, that's the experience of so many women who get diagnosed as an adult is literally tearing up because you're like, oh, this makes sense. And you feel seen and you have that accurate narrative and it's really amazing how powerful that is. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:45

It is. So, we've talked a lot about time specifically. What are some other signs and symptoms that adult women who are wondering, you know, could this be me, be looking for? 

Jenny Hobbs 14:58

Great question. So one of the things that's interesting about ADHD is that our understanding of it has changed a lot over the past 30 to 40 years. And even the diagnostic criteria that we use and the picture that we have in our minds is not really fully up to date. Okay, so I'll just kind of fast-forward to the current understanding. And the current understanding of ADHD is, as I mentioned, this executive function disorder, but it's also related strongly to dopamine, right? So your dopamine is like your pleasure reward center chemical, right? So you don't have enough of that. And so basically, you are a person who is kind of more likely to need dopamine to be effective, right? So you're going to need something that's exciting or interesting or challenging. So you might wait till the last minute till you have a deadline, we talked about time, you also might be a person who can be really motivated and really awesome at one thing because you think it's interesting. But if you think something's not interesting, you can't motivate yourself to do it at all. Right? So very, you'll notice inconsistency. Another big thing that comes up a big hallmark of ADHD is emotional dysregulation. And this is- honestly I maybe should have just led with this because emotional dysregulation is one of the core consistent features that is seen in people with ADHD throughout their life. And it's not in our diagnostic criteria. So I cannot tell you how many people I know whose kids seem to have these like really big emotions and all this stuff. And they think it's a behavioral issue. And often, it's actually undiagnosed ADHD. But because they don't picture, they don't look like that picture of like a hyperactive kid, but maybe they're just like a big emotions kid, it's not recognized very easily. So for adult women, do you have a hard time in relationships? Do you have a hard time getting really angry? Do you have big mood swings? Do you, this is an interesting one, do you have trouble getting a lot of traffic tickets? This is one that was for me really interesting. It's one of the main nine criteria for adults is speeding a lot. And I had no idea about that. And after I got diagnosed, I started remembering all like the times I've been speeding and getting tickets and all this crazy stuff, the traffic issues, workplace issues, difficulty keeping a job, difficulty, maybe in your marriage or other relationships, inconsistency, I think I mentioned that. But you know, like, people might think, Oh, you're like, you're just lazy, because you can do things when you want to, if you like it, and you can't do it if you don't like it. But that's actually a big part of ADHD is it's your inconsistent, you're when you're interested, and you're excited, you're feeling great, you can do a lot of stuff. And then when you're not, you literally do nothing. So all or nothing, I think I could go on and on. But I think that maybe gives you a pretty good list. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:47

Yeah. So, I know that I was diagnosed when I took my son to be diagnosed. He was having trouble in school and he had a lot of the more classic ADHD signs, not able to pay attention, you know, that you've mentioned. And we kind of touched on this in the beginning of the podcast, but what is the link between ADHD diagnoses and perimenopause? 

Jenny Hobbs 18:13

So glad you mentioned that. And I was thinking about this earlier when you were talking about women who have ADHD and all their compensatory strategies that they have, right? And you notice like at the beginning, you said like, what's changing? All these things that we're working from, you aren't working anymore. So what happens is if you're a person with ADHD and you're a female, okay, you have added inconsistency because of your hormones, okay? So estrogen improves attention, and you need estrogen to access your working memory. So when you're trying to keep track of, like, organize your schedule for the day, what you need to get done before you get somewhere, all your kids' school stuff, family dinners, you know, you name it, right? As a mom, we got a lot of working memory. You're a working mom, your working memory is busy. You need estrogen to access that effectively and to maintain attention, okay? Obviously, in ADHD, those are the exact things you're already having trouble with, right? When you head into perimenopause, your estrogen levels start to slowly decline. So as a woman, even if you didn't have ADHD, you'd have more difficulty with attention and working memory and emotional regulation and all these things, just as part of your natural process of aging and going to perimenopause. But if you have ADHD, it's gonna be even more significant. And along with that, during your menstrual cycles, your amounts of estrogen are changing too, right? So, even from week to week or day to day, a woman might have different levels of symptoms. So this gets back to another reason why it's so hard to diagnose ADHD in women because, do you meet the criteria on one day and not another or one week and not another or at a different, you know, before puberty, after puberty? And I will say just the caveat is a lot of this, it's very difficult to study. And there is a lack of research on women and people of color when it comes to ADHD. Almost all of the studies we have were done on young white hyperactive boys. So a lot of this, we're just beginning to really unravel. But the take-home point, you know, I'm not an OBGYN, I'm an internal medicine doctor. So I always say like, I don't know a lot about this. What I know is that in menopause and perimenopause, your estrogen levels start to go down, right? And throughout your cycle, your estrogen levels change. And what that means is that your ADHD symptoms, if you have ADHD, are going to correlate with that, right? So there'll be worse in menopause and worse at parts of your cycle. And most likely women who don't have ADHD are seeing a bit of that too. The thing that's really interesting is that what we see is in your late 30s to early 40s, there is a spike in new diagnoses of ADHD among women. And it's kind of the perfect storm of all of these things coming together. So if you think about it, perhaps you had ADHD as a child, but your parents were super strict. You were pretty smart. You were a girl. 

Jenny Hobbs 21:13

So it was naturally easier for you maybe to sit down in class and you were more affected by all these social expectations. So you were, you know, girls, little girls are such nice as badasses, right? You think you're like, I got a problem, I will solve it. I got my strategies. I got my planner. I got, you know, all my stuff. You did great. But then you got into your 20s and 30s. You had a couple of kids who most likely have some form of executive dysfunction because it's genetic, right? Maybe you married somebody who's got executive dysfunction because we lock together. Now you've got not only yourself to handle, but you also have two or three or four other people who need you to help them with their executive function, right? And you're hitting your 30s and 40s and your estrogen levels are dipping down, right? And so the way we say this is like the wheels come off. All of those strategies and things that seem to be working just fine and beautifully are not enough to overcome all of the added expectations of the added executive function you need to handle your life with less estrogen helping you out, right? And so there's this line of life. It's happened to me. It sounds like it happened to you. When everything falls apart, you don't know what's going on. And then many of those women who come into that situation are ultimately found to have ADHD and they had no idea. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:37

Um, the wheels coming off is that's how it felt. It's like, I just couldn't, and it felt for me like almost from one day to the next, it felt pretty dramatic. Like all of a sudden I, yeah, I just couldn't juggle all the balls and was dropping them and I was overwhelmed emotionally, just feeling frazzled all the time. So, what I'm noticing is that we've touched on a couple of things that seem to keep women from getting accurately diagnosed. Like number one, the fact that we do come up with so many masking strategies and right, the wheels just haven't come off for them yet. They, they have all the alarms, they have the planners, they have all the, the ways that they kind of keep themselves on track and their symptoms are changing. Like some days they're like, oh, actually, no, I can remember things just fine. I, this isn't an issue for me. I want to add, and then I'm interested in just kind of what you would add to this list, I think there is a narrative for women about suffering, right? That it is just there, a certain amount of pain is what we're just supposed to deal with a certain amount of, you know, aging just means that things are going to shit and you just can't do anything to stop it. And so thanks patriarchy, because I think that the narrative that we have about what it means to be a woman aging also keeps women seeking and, and getting the help that they need, throw on top of that. It's selfish, it's self-centered to use time and resources for yourself when it's not like, quote, that big a deal. It's not cancer, right? It's not a lump in your breasts, which we would all, you know, go right down. I hope to everybody, you better be doing those breast checks where we would go right and get that taken care of. But I mean, the fact that I just can't remember words like I used to, it's not that bad and that's what aging is. What else do you think really keeps women from getting diagnosed the way they need to be? 

Jenny Hobbs 24:34

I definitely think a lot of it is what you said, this idea that it's not that big of a deal. We definitely tend to downplay pain and difficulty. And like I said, we're bad assets. We're used to handling a lot. You know, what's that? There's that quote that's like, just because you carry it well doesn't mean it's not heavy, right? That I feel like that's like women, right? You know, so many of us women working moms, so you're carrying it all, you're doing it, and you're like, it's okay, I got this, I got this. I also think definitely putting others before ourselves. So many of us, you know, we will spend this time, I've talked to a lot of women who are, it's easier for them to pay for money for coaching and therapy and treatment for their children with ADHD. Yes, even if they know they have ADHD, they'll not want to invest in coaching for themselves for ADHD. And they'll say, you know, well, it's one of them even told me, I realized it's kind of funny that I would totally pay this money if it was coaching for my son, but I won't do it for me. Right? So that is definitely big. I think also, it is legitimately challenging to find a good provider who understands a little ADHD and how it presents and can give you a thoughtful valuation, it does take some time, you know, there can be a cost involved in that, you know, so I think there's just some practical considerations as well. And I think, I'm glad you brought up that concept of, you know, it's not breast cancer, or things like that. I think another reason people don't get diagnosed is this misconception that it's not a big deal. So it's quite interesting, actually, there's pretty good data that people with ADHD have a shorter lifespan. So, there's actually a mortality effect of ADHD over time. It's on average, right? It's associated with loss of income, because there's a lot of job loss, it can be associated with divorce, which is extremely expensive, right? It also can lead to some undiagnosed trauma and anxiety and secondary psychiatric disorders, which are, again, are, you know, have their own toll and their own costs. It's pretty impressive if you look at the studies of kids with ADHD, the number of them that don't get treated early on that then go on to have problems with substance use and other problems related to the impulsivity. So it actually is a big deal. It's actually a big health cost to this disorder. But I honestly think the vast majority of people, including many physicians, don't know that. And so I think that lack of information kind of makes people downplay it maybe more than we should sometimes. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:57

All right, so let's talk about some things that can be done about it. And here's where I just want to recognize, you know, the privilege that is kind of inherent in this, because resources, financial resources, kind of open up a whole other category of, of solutions for you. So I'd love to talk about, you know, some resources that can be low cost or no cost, and then some that might have a cost involved. 

Jenny Hobbs 27:24

I think that is a really good point. So I did mention there can definitely be a cost to some of the things that we do for this. Obviously ADHD is a well-recognized disorder, so evaluation and treatment, if you do have insurance or even on a number of the medical plans that are associated with state insurance and things like that, should be covered, at least to some degree. So there is that. So, there are ways to at least start the evaluation with your primary care provider. Certainly, if you have a primary care provider who is comfortable with adult ADHD or can refer you to someone that they know that's a great place to start. And part of the evaluation for ADHD does include checking for other things, like perimenopause and things like that, that can overlap with it. So that's a wonderful place to start. There are also really great free resources available. One book that I love is called Taking Charge of Adult ADHD by Russell Barkley. Wonderful book. It's really nice to have the physical copy like this, but I'll tell you, I listen to it on audio. So I literally got it from Libby, you know, if you have a library card, Libby, you can download it. I listened to the audio while I was driving to work and then I liked it enough and I do enough of this in my own work that I got the physical copy. So you can get that from the library. And this is a wonderful resource. And Russell Barkley also has a lot of YouTube videos available. He's one of the big names who has really worked hard to articulate the characteristics of adult ADHD versus kids. So look for his free resources. I will also I made a PDF download for just for you guys for this podcast. And so I will include in there a list of the nine characteristics that we look for for adult ADHD that's taken from his book and lots of links in there to podcasts and information that I have. That's free as well. But lots of good stuff. That's free. So here are the nine things that they found are more useful for diagnosing ADHD and adults. So specific to adults, not as much for kids. So, do you often easily get distracted by extraneous stimuli or irrelevant thoughts? Do you often make decisions impulsively? A lot of difficulty stopping activities or behavior when you should do so. Start a project or task without reading or listening to directions carefully. Fail to follow through on promises or commitments you make to others. Have trouble doing things in their proper order or sequence. As I'm listening to these, I'm thinking of so many examples. Drive much faster than others. Or if you don't drive, have difficulty engaging in leisure activities or doing fun things quietly. Have difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or recreational activities. Or have difficulty organizing tasks and activities. So you don't have to have all of those nine. So, this will be in the toolkit that I'm going to send you. And it's also in Dr. Barkley's book. But those are kind of the nine things. And if you have four to six of those things, then you might want to be thinking about ADHD. So it's interesting being on time is not on there. 

Jenny Hobbs 30:28

Hyperactivity is another big one that we don't see as much in adults. Although I will add that one of the reasons girls often don't get diagnosed is because they tend to have more inattentive type and less hyperactive type. And when you are hyperactive, so I have hyperactive type, if you've noticed, it's verbal hyperactivity is how women and girls tend to present. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:49

Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, if I have my like ADHD bingo card, I'm close to blackout. 

Jenny Hobbs 30:57

It's really, so I think that when people say everyone has a little ADHD, you know, I think he talks about this in his book, but when they ask these questions of people with and without ADHD, it's a very, like, it's very clear who falls into that and who doesn't. And I think, you know, like, there's a lot of people I know who just don't have their, they don't understand why I have trouble with these things. So yeah. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 31:18

Yeah, the verbal hyperactivity is really helpful for me to hear as well because I think that probably describes me and maybe some other people I know. So thank you for reading those. 

Jenny Hobbs 31:28

Yeah. The other thing I like about his book is that it really drives home what it takes to get a good evaluation for ADHD. So what to look for in a provider, where to find someone, what questions they should be asking. And if you've been listening to this, sometimes people are kind of like, well, isn't everyone a little ADHD? And how do you know, he really breaks down, you know, it needs to be something that's present in these areas of life for this length of time, you know, from childhood. So you can really get a sense of it's not just like everyone who's a little distracted, has ADHD, but it really nicely illustrates all of that and even talks about, you know, if you get an evaluation, you don't agree with it, how to think about that. So there's lots of great books about ADHD out there. But I really like how fact-based this is in terms of the diagnostic piece. If you don't have the opportunity to get in to see someone, it's a really nice place to start thinking about for yourself. His book also has strategies for ADHD, which is great. And then that was the other thing I was going to say is that whether or not you actually get a formal diagnosis and start on medications and things like that, which all of which does cost some degree of money, many strategies for ADHD are free and helpful. So things like sleep, we know improving your sleep can improve ADHD symptoms by 30%. In some studies, exercise is probably second only to medication in terms of treating ADHD symptoms, doesn't have to be a ton, nutrition. And then, you know, this does cost some money, typically, but coaching is excellent for ADHD. That's obviously a big part of what I do. And there's tons of ADHD trained coaches available, also therapists who do kind of a mix of therapy and coaching. And one of the reasons I really wanted to bring that up, and one of the reasons I like being a coach for ADHD is that whether or not you go on medications or get a diagnosis, the strategies that help the most are a lot of what we've been talking about here. So just accepting that this is who you are, this is how you're wired, giving yourself that accurate narrative, and building the skills of trusting yourself, loving yourself, letting go of all these rules and expectations and restrictions, the inner critic, all of that work that Sara does, and her people pleasing and that I do, is really effective. And you don't necessarily need to go to a doctor and get on medication to start working on all of that. So sorry, that was a really long answer, Sara. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 33:51

No, that was great. I just want to make sure also that we touch on for perimenopausal women that you can replace that estrogen, right? That is one of the most, I mean, there's a night and day difference that I feel and that women, my friends, feel when we have that estrogen on board in a way that can really be helpful. What should someone who is in that perimenopausal range be aware of? 

Jenny Hobbs 34:23

I do think perimenopause is a really interesting topic to talk about alongside this because and I actually recently went to a Mayo Clinic CME a few months ago and there was a talk on ADHD and a talk on perimenopause. So I was really excited, excited, all these facts in my mind ready to go. And there's actually a lot of overlap, which is kind of cool. So perimenopause is also very poorly understood, just like ADHD, right? But we do have some pretty good studies now that show that perimenopausal symptoms can start a lot earlier than you might think. So the average age for menopause is around 52, okay? But it can start anytime after 45 is considered normal. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:06

And I just want to note it's different for different populations. Women of color, black women have a different perimenopausal kind of median age than white women than it can be. But 50s between 50 and 55 kind of covers it. 

Jenny Hobbs 35:20

That's a great yeah, that's a great point. And I, again, I'm not an OBGYN. So this is definitely not my main area of expertise. I really mostly understand it as it overlaps with ADHD and things like that. So that's a really good point. I did not know that about people of color, but it totally makes sense. And I think the important point here, though, is that prior to menopause, there's this sort of what they call perimenopause or menopause transition, and then they have something even before that that they call the late reproductive stage. So that's what the OBGYNs call it. Okay. And the bottom line is that big studies show that the symptoms that we think of being menopausal symptoms can start as much as 10 plus years before you actually go into menopause. So they've done studies where they surveyed women starting at age 35. And basically what they found was this, I think the cohort was 35 to 55 or something like that. Basically, what they found was that they had just as many symptoms at 35 as at 50. Like you couldn't really make a huge difference. The only symptom that was really different based on age was hot flashes. So, hot flashes were definitely worse when you were older. But the rest of the things we think of, so sleep problems, brain fog, mood changes, even like musculoskeletal pain, weight gain, you know, vaginal dryness, urinary symptoms, all of that stuff, they couldn't find a difference, whether you were 35 or 45 or 50 on average, which so that means a lot of the stuff that we are just thinking, like you said, oh, this is just, you know, aging, it could be very early signs of menopause, even if you're in your late 30s, potentially, right? I think it is more common as you get older, but I think that, for me was really eye-opening. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 37:10

I started perimenopause at 38. Yeah, just based on what was going on with, for me at the time, medical issues I was having, I started perimenopause and nobody told me that that's what it was. Like you said, I really love that perimenopause is having the moment it deserves, and I hope it's a lot more than a moment, because there is so much to it, and I know that I spent a lot of years just watching myself decline and wondering what was wrong, not feeling like there was anything I could do about it. And so I'm really grateful that we've had this discussion because I hope what it opens up, a couple of things, like number one, if you're experiencing some of these things, there's nothing morally wrong with you. It might be time to download the Libby app and listen to Russell Barkley's book, or see a provider, make sure that you're getting one that understands how adult ADHD really manifest differently in adults and specifically in women. Because what I really hope is that women can just ease up on themselves, and that we can get ourselves the resources that we need. So we're not just on the edge of that like overwhelm burnout edge all the time, which I felt like that's just where I lived for such a long time. So I'm really grateful. Is there anything that you didn't get to say so far in our conversation that you wanna make sure that you add? 

Jenny Hobbs 38:39

Yeah, I just wanted to, I think along the lines of the perimenopause evaluation and question, so one thing that's really interesting is that if you think about it, these symptoms that we're talking about start so early that hormone testing, like doing the labs to see what your hormone levels are, is really not that helpful in terms of diagnosing. So I think often, you know, again, as in our culture, we all want the black and white answer, we want to go to the doctor and get the lab test that proves that we have this or that we have menopause, and we want to know we want a right answer, we want is this perimenopause, or is this ADHD, you know, we want it all to be perfect. And I don't want to downplay that. Because as Sara said, people can feel so much better when they get the correct diagnosis, and there are treatments that work. So, hormone therapy can be extremely effective. It's very safe. That's another area where there's a lot of misconceptions about it. So with a really smart medical provider, it doesn't have to be an OBGYN, it can be an internal medicine doctor who does or a family practice doctor who does a lot of outpatient women's medicine, talk to them about the risks and benefits, but it can be extremely helpful to get on hormone therapy for that, and helpful to get a diagnosis. But the diagnosis is more of what we would say in medicine, a clinical diagnosis, it's less dependent on those lab values. So go in, ask the question, go in armed with the information that it can start earlier, and for all those reasons. And I think the other thing that's interesting about perimenopause is whether or not you decide to do the hormone therapy is, again, it was fascinating at this talk that I went to, the slides about how to treat your menopausal symptoms, and the slides about how to treat your ADHD, right? After you got past the medication, so either hormone therapy for menopause or stimulants and things like that for ADHD, once you got past that, the list was basically the same. It was sleep, exercise, nutrition, and then a lot of mindset stuff like we talked about, accepting yourself and working on those emotional regulation strategies and all that stuff. So what I love about that is that you can go to your doctor and you should and get evaluated because why not make your life easier by treating the actual problem. But if you don't get the answer you're looking for, or it doesn't feel clear cut, that can also be okay, because you can look at it as an opportunity to tune up your lifestyle and to start working on these strategies of self-acceptance and love and confidence and all of these things, which you can start doing whatever happens with the diagnosis. And honestly, all women can benefit from improving their self-acceptance and love and confidence and their ability to handle their emotions. 

Jenny Hobbs 41:22

There's no downside to working on all that while you're doing this. Does that make sense? If anything, it's like a great opportunity to justify it to yourself because there is real benefit to it. Sometimes, like you said, we think things aren't important, but now that we know these things are so important and we're starting to have symptoms that are causing big enough problems that they're affecting our life, we can use that as motivation to prioritize ourselves and what matters. So I know that's kind of like my positive spin I like to take on it with my ADHD folks is like, this is a gift because everyone could use my favorite example is everyone could be better at emotional regulation. Everyone at your work is having trouble regulating their emotions, and they're just covering it up better than you do. And so while it may seem like you're the problem, this is also you get to get really good at this skill that other people are ignoring and you will benefit from that for the rest of your life once you have that intact. And I think that goes for good girls too, right? 

Sara Bybee Fisk 42:21

100%. I'm really grateful for the toolkit that you've created. We will link to that. A link to the Libby app too because that's a great free resource for reading that book. And Jenny, just thank you so much for being here. 

Jenny Hobbs 42:35

Yeah, thank you. I loved chatting with you. I love your podcast. I just resonate so much with you and the women you work with. So thank you for being the voice of all of us ex-good girls. It's, it's awesome. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 42:47

Absolutely. And if people want to find out more about you and your work, where would you like them to go? 

Jenny Hobbs 42:52

So, um, you can find me at Jenny Hobbs, MD, like medical doctor. Someone's asked me, does that mean you're from Maryland? No, jennyhobbsmd.com. And I'm also on Instagram, same thing. I believe I was going to change it at one point, but I think it's still the same. Jenny Hobbs, MD on Instagram. I'm also on Facebook. I also have a podcast called Rethink Your Rules, which is just talking to women. You know, all the rules that the good girls were supposed to follow and we're just rethinking them and I specifically say, I always say, it's not that we're going to necessarily rewrite them. We might rewrite them. We're just going to pause and rethink them and decide if they work for us now that we've learned what, how we're wired. And so, so those are good places to find me and I, uh, you know, check out the toolkit that I created, feel free to set up a console anytime. If you want to talk this over, honestly, it's pretty common for women to come to me because they're in that late thirties, early forties, got a kid or two that's diagnosed with ADHD and they're questioning, is this perimenopause? Is this ADHD, and you know, where do I start? And so I love to be able to sort of work with people and guide them as they're talking to their doctor. And I can be a really nice sort of a physician sounding board who's not actually doing the medical diagnosing and treating, but I can help them with the strategies and the mindset and give them an outside perspective as they're going through all of that. So if you want to do a consult and you just chat about where you are and where you want to go, I'm happy to do it. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 44:19

Thank you so much.

Episode 117 - The Enneagram for People Pleasers Part 2 with Wendy Montgomery

Today, I’m back with part two of my conversation with Enneagram coach Wendy Montgomery. In part one, we explored the nine Enneagram types and how people-pleasing can show up for each one. Now, we’re diving into what healing these habits looks like for each type and how the Enneagram can act as a guide for transformation. Here’s what we cover: 

• Why self-awareness is key to reducing people-pleasing tendencies

• A type-by-type analysis of how the shift away from people pleasing can happen

• Why healing is a journey, not an arrival–even with the help of the Enneagram

• How to offer yourself grace and compassion when overcoming people-pleasing

• A healing message for each Enneagram type

Find Wendy here:

https://www.wendymontgomery.com/

https://www.instagram.com/wendymontcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/people/Wendy-Montgomery-Coaching/

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:00

It was a lot of fun to record this podcast episode with my friend and Enneagram coach Wendy Montgomery. It's in two parts because there's just so much to the Enneagram. It's really hard to narrow it down and we try to discuss as much as possible without firehosing you and I hope we did a good job. In part one, Wendy introduces you to each of the nine types and what people pleasing might look like for each type and then in part two, we look at the healing of people pleasing and what it might look like for each type to become more self-aware and take steps to heal the wounds that cause a lot of the people pleasing and we try to give you a map for finding out your type or for deepening your understanding. I really hope you enjoy the episode. I really want to just talk about the shift that happens for each type as they move along the spectrum of recognizing people pleasing or recognizing some unhealthy habits and patterns that don't serve them and don't work for them. The shift that happens as they move toward healing or health from people pleasing specifically. One of the most beautiful things that you have sent me, I think I asked you one time, we were talking about the healing sentences that each type needs to hear. I would love to end with those just so that if that is something that resonates with people listening, they can take those sentences. First kind of like a type by type shift that happens and then we'll end with those healing sentences. 

Wendy Montgomery 02:41

I think what's really helpful is to understand the importance of self-awareness when it comes to the Enneagram because the more self-aware we are, the more we can see the way we're getting in our own ways. That's going to look different from type to type. For me as a type eight, being really self-aware of how I'm coming across to other people has been a game changer for me because a lot of eights don't realize that when we bring a level 10 energy to every engagement where maybe a level two or three would have been sufficient that we can come on way strong. In our mind, we're just being friendly and engaging. My kids say I make aggressive eye contact. I don't even know what that means. I just think I'm looking at you and paying attention to what's being said and they feel like it's like laser beams coming out of my eyes. There is that piece of self-awareness that we can't fix something unless we see it. The beauty and also the tricky confronting part of the Enneagram is it will show you. It'll show you how you're getting in your own way if you let it. It does require a level of not just humility for our own weaknesses and ways we wish we were showing up better. It requires deep compassion and friendship towards ourselves to be like, yeah, of course I show it messy. Sometimes life is hard. That kind of encompasses all of the types, that self-awareness piece. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:09

It does. Okay, I didn't want to admit this because you're the Enneagram expert here, but I started playing around with each type. And what might it look like from like my work with each of these types, because I have every single type in my practice, either, you know, privately or in group coaching. And so I started writing and I'm going to read to you what I wrote, and I want you to either weigh in and tweak it so that it is more accurate, if that makes sense.

Wendy Montgomery 04:37

Yes. That sounds awesome. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:40

So type one, the reformer or the perfectionist, before they kind of experienced the self-awareness that you so rightly pointed out, they need to be good, they need to be right. And their responsibility kind of earns them that love, right? They're always kind of earning and earning and earning. And as they become self-aware and self-connected, they realize that being human means I'm going to make mistakes. It is a feature, not a bug. And that begins to create a place for softness with themselves, softness with their mistakes, and it allows them to go from really rigid, constant self-judgment to more of a graciousness or grace-filled view of themselves. 

Wendy Montgomery 05:32

Yeah, that is exactly what it looks like. And for all the ones listening, and for all of the types when we go through this part of it, it will be the journey of your life to get there. You're going to get there and it's going to feel amazing. And then there might be a little bit of a slide back and then you'll get there. It will be the thing that we are working towards until we die. It's never an arrival. I mean, I would love for it to be an arrival. It's a journey. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 06:00

Yeah. And the question that you asked, I think, you know, of each type is, is so important to be asking as a way to facilitate this kind of movement toward more health and more and habits that just serve you and your relationships better. Okay, so type two, before they kind of have the self-awareness, they are also doing a lot of the gaining self-worth by meeting others' needs, giving people the cookie that they baked, you know, from scratch this morning, anticipating others' needs, and they're neglecting their own desires. They are really resentful kind of in there because they're always so outwardly focused. And what a two looks like as they journey toward health and out of people pleasing is that love, they learn that love doesn't require them to be constantly hypervigilantly doing their thing. And that they actually are worthy of receiving care without feeling guilty and without feeling ashamed. They go from like the self-sacrificial type of love to more of self-worth as love for themselves. 

Wendy Montgomery 07:21

Yes. And to be able to accept other people's help and care for themselves. That's so hard for it too. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:29

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So for three, the achiever, you also mentioned that they would kind of shapeshift, right? I'll just be whoever you need me to be. I will be really good at reading the room and I will show up and meet people's needs both so that you can admire me and so that I avoid being seen as a failure. So their shift would look like understanding that they're worthy of receiving, that worth isn't tied to how they perform. And as I've seen threes kind of make this journey, there's almost this softening or relaxing into letting themselves be seen as someone with needs who is authentic and comfortable with being kind of a regular human like the rest of us. 

Wendy Montgomery 08:25

Yeah, and less than shiny and perfect. Yeah. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:28

Yeah, I love that. Okay, good. I feel like I'm getting a good grade on this so far. Yes. 

Wendy Montgomery 08:34

Yes, you nailed it. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:35

It's awesome not to be a people pleaser and seek your approval right now Wendy. 

Wendy Montgomery 08:42

I mean, not the people-pleaser part. You're nailing this part.

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:45

Type four, the individualist. So they are kind of on that teeter-totter seesaw of too much, not enough, and kind of wanting to be special. I need to be more special. I'm not special enough to earn a place, to earn belonging, to earn the right to kind of exist in their groups. And they go from that to knowing that they just who they are, however they feel it, however they see it, however it is in their lens or their circumstance, it's right. And it's enough. And that they are able to connect, not just by being the most special or the most unique, but through shared emotional experience that doesn't have to be the same level of emotion. Yes. So they go from like maybe like a longing for significance through their emotionalness, their specialness, to just really being at home with who they are and how they feel. And they just belong. 

Wendy Montgomery 09:56

Yeah, I love all of that. And I would also add that they stop putting shame on themselves for their big feelings. They let themselves have them. Cause society, especially if you're a male type four, like my husband, society is like, why are you like, and it's not like he's a crier or anything, but it's like, he's going to feel something deeply. And then there's a level of shame. Like I can't let people know how much this is affecting me. Women as well, you know? And when they get to just feel what they're going to feel, regardless of what society tells them is okay, they don't have to feel that need to people, please. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:30

Yeah, this next one was fun for me because Dan is a five. So before they come into a lot of self-awareness and begin that healing journey, their protection is through withdrawal. And like intellectual control of either the conversation or whatever is going on. I've talked with Dan in the past that sometimes his boundaries felt like electric fences, right? Oh, that's so accurate for fives. When he needed space and he needed time because fives do need more space and time to themselves and there can be very protective of their free time and their personal time. And I think that the switch I've seen him make and other fives make is that they develop the capacity to open up and participate without controlling the intellectual property in a conversation. Oh, that's so good. Or in a situation, and they actually trust that their needs will also still be met. Sometimes those boundaries that feel like electric fences are fives who worry that they won't have enough free time for themselves, they won't have enough of their own resources for themselves. But as I've seen fives and especially Dan kind of relax into trusting other people, like talking about what they need. Like the reason it's hard for a five to trust that their needs are going to be met is sometimes they feel like they're the only one looking out for themselves. But as they open up and they share their emotional experience, they learn to trust that other people will show up for them and meet their needs as well. And so it really is a shift from like a withholding as a way to protect myself to engaging with a lot more trust that their needs will be met. Because part of what we need as humans is emotional community and communing with each other on an emotional level.

Wendy Montgomery 12:31

You said it so well. For fives, they fully believe that their energy, their bandwidth is finite. It will be over at some point, so they are fiercely protective of it. So their growth work, like what you were explaining, is almost a generosity of their time and their knowledge. And even if it feels like it's coming at an expense, it's worth it because I love this person or I love this group. And there will be more. Once it's over, it's gone and the well is empty. Yeah, so good. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:06

All right, type six, the loyalist. So they're people-pleasing. When I was looking at, you know, different clients and people I know looks a lot like aligning with strong leaders, that loyalty piece of just like parroting, like strong leaders or strong groups for safety. There's a large number of sixes and a lot of, you know, conservative religious groups because that is what they do for safety. And because so much of their people-pleasing is just towing the party line. And there's very little self-trust that can be built when you're just kind of towing the party line, allowing the thinking to be done for you by people that you trust to keep you safe. It is the opening to I am trustworthy. I have an internal authority that I can cultivate that actually creates safety for me so that I can disagree so that I can have my own opinion so that I can take a stand that aligns with maybe more who I am deeply and authentically than just the rules of this group. It looks to me like the shift from an externalized trust. I'm going to trust this group to take care of me and their laws and their rules and what they want for me and what they tell me to think to more of an internalized bravery or courage or centeredness. And it's not even either or it's not like the loyalist has to leave the group, but it's their own internal compass and trust comes online and is at least equal to that of the group to which they belong and hope will keep them safe. 

Wendy Montgomery 14:56

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think sixes thrive when they realize that the assurance that they're looking for is best found inside themselves. Yeah. It's there. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:07

Yeah. 

Wendy Montgomery 15:08

And they have to trust it. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:09

All right, seven, the enthusiasts. I have a strong seven wing, avoiding pain by let's go do something fun. But I think there's a lot of accommodating and being very agreeable that also happens for sevens. And so slowing down, like I just remember in a lot of my seven, just high, just action, action, action, action, action, doing, doing, doing, doing, and so slowing down to stay present with emotions.Because for a lot of people pleasers, we are able to just skip past the heaviness of the guilt, the resentment, the fear, by just staying in motion. So for a seven in particular, slowing down, staying present, and a shift from like constantly being in action, trying to not feel to just being comfortable feeling and letting and trusting that those emotions have really valuable, important information for us about what is good for us, what is not good for us, and letting some of those emotions lead the way.

Wendy Montgomery 16:24

Absolutely. I call it bright siding that sevens do, like when they stop bright siding other people or a situation and like see it for the truth of what it is and let that be good enough, you know, and feeling that perfect. It's perfect. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 16:41

All right, type eight, the protector. Okay, hurt my feelings. Mine too. So that fierce like self-protection, not wanting to be controlled, not wanting to be trapped in in anything, is the armoring up that I see for myself, like I can do it, give it to me, I'll take care of it, I will take care of that and that and that and that. And so you become this, this almost self supported thing, because you don't allow a lot of other people to step in and do a lot for you. Especially because having needs feel so vulnerable, it feels like you're, you know, standing naked in front of everyone not knowing if they will want to support you the same way that you know, you are you are supporting and protecting everyone else. Will I be protected the same way that I'm protecting everyone else? And so allowing softness and allowing mutual care, that letting other people in is not just an act of courage, but that it's an act of courage. And it's not weak. And it is what actually gets me the protection and the care and the mutual equity that I so often resent that I don't have. And so it's a shift from like being the strongest, or like being the one to have power over by moving all the chess pieces on the board for everybody else, to just be equal, right power with and softness with connection with

Wendy Montgomery 18:28

Yes. All of that. 100%.The other thing I was thinking when you were speaking is, oh, another way that people pleasing shows up for me is my overuse of apologies. Because I automatically assume if something's gone sideways in a relationship that it's my fault. Because eights feel that a lot, especially female eights were too loud. We have too big of an opinion. We're too harsh. So I assume I said something unkind or I did something that was thoughtless. And then I start realizing I'm like, I am taking far more accountability and ownership of things that I was not the problem, if that makes sense. So that's a way that I find that I'm trying not to people please is apologizing when I do get it wrong for sure. But not taking other people's stuff and making it mine. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:17

That's right. Just letting, just letting whatever awkwardness or discomfort is there, be there without owning it and trying to smooth it over. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Last one type nine, the peacemaker. So the peacemaker, as I understand it, really is about disappearing my own needs just to keep everybody else happy. So I'm going to, if I'm a nine, I'm avoiding conflict and I see the nine, you know, in, in me a lot, deferring decisions. What do you think? What do you want to do? Chameleoning just so that everybody is harmonious and that there's no conflict. And so out of that comes a lot of people pleasing and nines when they find their voice. And when they say, this is what I want, this is what I need. It's almost like the switch flips and they become more of, I would call like an, an active participant in their life, not just the one kind of curating the experience for everybody else and just trying to keep it everybody happy and smiling. And so I see their shift from like not having any needs. That's what gets me loved and accepted to, I am a person who has needs that deserve to be met just like everybody else. And I feel comfortable saying what those are and holding my place of equality in a group. 

Wendy Montgomery 20:53

That's so good and I'm thinking of, I have a lot of nines in my life, a lot of family members that are nine and I think it'd be amazing if they could do that and it would also be very hard for a nine. I think everything you mentioned across all the types is so beautiful and it will be hard. So I don't want your listeners to expect to be like, okay, well, I've got the magic bullet. This is what I need and now like give me a week or two and I've got this. This is going to be something that we work on our whole life. So give yourself like a lot of grace and a lot of compassion because we're going to do it fumbling and messy, especially in the beginning as we're trying to overcome these people-pleasing tendencies. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 21:35

Yeah. And I wanted to offer these shifts as kind of like the lighthouse, right? That we're going toward. Because so many of the women that I talk to that, you know, they know they're people pleasing. They don't know how to stop. And they long for a real authentic lived experience. And hopefully in these, you know, nine kind of shifts that I've just kind of, you know, it's not that any grand bible by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the shifts that I have seen clients make. And it's a continuum, right? It is a constantly evolving set of skills and feeling of self connectedness and sovereignness authenticity that begins to develop that just builds on itself. Yeah. 

Wendy Montgomery 22:27

It's so good. I love those shifts. I'm gonna write them down. Thank you. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:31

I'm so glad. Did I get a good A? Did I get a good grade? Great plan. 

Wendy Montgomery 22:34

Plus, you totally pleased me, Sara. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:39

People-pleased. Excellent. All right, so let's end. Do you have those sentences that you could just read to us as we end? So as you hear these, if you're listening, just notice which ones feel like the warm hug that you wish you could have had maybe or you wish you could have and offer this to yourself because that's the thing that we can do as adults to heal whatever set of wounds and circumstances kind of created each type in us as we can begin to fill that hole for ourselves and heal that wound. 

Wendy Montgomery 23:15

Yes, absolutely. So the Enneagram calls these the healing messages or the message your heart longs to hear. I call them for the spouses you're get out of jail free card. So if you're ever in a disagreement and you know your spouse's type, write this down because this is what will soften every conversation. It is also what we need to deeply, deeply embody within ourselves for our type because this is where we find ours, our softness. It's where we find our integrity. It's where we find true peace. So for our type one, the improver, it sounds so simple, but it's so important. Their healing message is you are good. Period. Full stop. You don't have to keep doing and perfecting and making everything better. It's good and you are good right now. So that's type one. Oh, good. Type two, the healing message for the helper is you are wanted and loved. You don't have to contort yourself. You don't have to bend over backwards taking care of every person in your life. You are wanted and loved right now without having to serve or do anything. And then type three, their message is you are loved for yourself without needing to perform. There is nothing we need you to do. You don't need to be shiny and perfect for us. We love you right now, even flawed and messy, right? And then type four, you are loved and seen for who you are. You already are special. You already are unique. You already are your authentic self. And we see that and that is what we love in you, right? And then for type five, their message is your needs are not a problem. They are so fiercely independent. They won't even let you know what they need because they're going to take care of it because they're afraid their needs might be a problem for you. Nope, your needs are not a problem. Let me be here for you. That's a five. And then type six, their message again, it sounds really simple, but it's really important for six is to know you are safe. We've got you, you're safe. And you've got you, right? Type seven is you will be taken care of. Again, a very independent type. That's just like, nah, I'll take care of myself. No, let us take care of you. We will take care of you. That's seven. And then type eight, you will not be betrayed. And that I think they use an intense word like betrayal because eights are an intense type, but that is what hurt feels like to us sometimes is betrayal. And when we know you will not be betrayed, we show up a lot softer with a lot less armor. And then type nine, last but not least, your presence matters. You have a seat at the table, your opinions, what you want, it matters to us. Your voice matters. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:19

Those are so beautiful. And I noticed several, you know, that just feel really good to say to myself, even though, you know, I'm kind of in that solid eight area of the Enneagram. So whatever feels like that just soft warm hug, please take those healing sentences and start to say them to yourself. Because that is the beauty of being a human is that we can't go back and necessarily relive the past. But we can still heal the things that hurt from the past by showing up as the beautiful wise adult today for ourselves that we needed back then. Wendy, I have loved this discussion with you. So glad I got a good grade on my assignment. You didn't know I took on from myself. If people want to find you find out more about the Enneagram work with you, where should they go to do that? 

Wendy Montgomery 27:18

Well, my website is wendymontgomery.com. You can find me on any social media platform. I'm probably the most active on Instagram, where it is wendymontcoach. On Facebook, I'm wendymontgomerycoaching. On a lot of the social platforms, you can find me there. So I love this too, Sara. This was awesome. Thanks for having me on. 

Sara Bybee Fisk 27:40

Absolutely. All those will be linked in the show notes and Wendy, thank you so much for your time.

Episode 116 - The Enneagram for People Pleasers Part 1 with Wendy Montgomery

I have been so excited to have my dear friend and Enneagram coach, Wendy Montgomery, on the podcast. The Enneagram is an expansive and incredible tool that has helped me understand myself and those around me in a whole new way. In this two-part conversation, you’ll learn about all nine types and the insight they offer into why and how we people-please. Here’s what we cover:

• The characteristics, core motivator, and core fear of each Enneagram type

• Why understanding your Enneagram type can help lessen people-pleasing tendencies

• How the Enneagram triads offer further insight into your type

• The unique ways people-pleasing shows up for every type

• A question for each type to ask themselves to gain more self-awareness

• How gender stereotypes can impact Enneagram analysis

Find Wendy here:

https://www.wendymontgomery.com/

https://www.instagram.com/wendymontcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/people/Wendy-Montgomery-Coaching/

Find Sara here:

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

Book a Free Consult

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57
Danielle Savory, I am so glad that we get to have this conversation.

Danielle Savory 01:02
Me too. I have been looking forward to it ever since you sent me the text like let's do this

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:07

What do you want people to know? I mean, everybody already knows who you are. But for those who are late to the game, Daniel Savory sex coach, what do you want people to know about you?

Danielle Savory 01:17

You know, the thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is being a lifelong learner. And that is one of the things I have absolutely love that has kept me involved in this work, is this constant striving to like, understand, I mean, human psychology in general, I think you and I both geek out on all of the ways that we're socialized, how it impacts our nervous system, yada, but specifically, and really watching because it's presenting itself in such a different way, the impact that socialization has on the way that we show up with our sexuality and really all of these avenues that we can find, especially those of us socialized as women that are blocking us from feeling good, right, these messages that are saying like, let's get to the personal growth, but it's really just about surviving like enough to get by so you don't feel awful. But we don't talk about like, once we get to ground zero, let's talk about feeling like ecstatic and alive and like turned on and how despite all of the huge movements and progress we've made with sexuality and talking about mental load and people pleasing and all of these sorts of things, it's still kind of just getting us to like, a level that should be a birthright to begin with, let alone like a level that is like, of so much more joy, and there's just so many layers there. And so I think more than anything, like I'm just a lifelong scholar of this work and will continue just to show up in my own life, because I'm my best subject test. And then of course, to my clients and what I'm seeing in the world. So yes, that's who I am.

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:08

Well, I have been the beneficiary of that lifelong learning and your obsession with women and pleasure and getting them into their bodies and into their bodies in a safe way, into their bodies in an intimate, vulnerable way. It has been, we've had a couple of conversations and one of them, we recorded podcast episode number 25 where you said something that has kind of been rolling around in my head ever since. And it has to do with the level of kind of self-intimacy and self-vulnerability that is required for a woman to really know what she wants in sexual experiences. And I realized at the time that I didn't think I had it. And that's, there's a lot there that maybe we'll touch on today, but that really just has kind of been coming up and coming up and coming up. And I hear it in the experiences of so many women that I talked to because not only are they having bad sex or having sex that isn't fulfilling, not having orgasms, not experiencing the type of like intimacy and connectedness that they want, but they're blaming themselves for it. They are putting up with it. And they're kind of thinking this is as good as it gets. And they are experiencing kind of the slow decline or the die-off of their sex lives as just something normal. Like this is what is supposed to happen as you age, you just experience less desire and that's just how it goes. And so that's kind of like the backdrop for everything that was on my mind when Hulu dropped Dying for Sex. And I'll say right now, if you have not, if you're listening and you have not watched the show, don't listen to this if you're going to watch it, because we're going to talk about a lot of things that will spoil it for you or listen to it and then watch it later, your choice. But if you decide to watch it, but watch it and I will say, make sure that you look up the themes and the subject matter so that you know what you will experience and see because coming from a conservative religious background, that is, it's not something I would have ever watched before. And I just want people to be prepared. But it has been like few shows have affected me the way that Dying for Sex has affected me, because it talks about kind of all of these overlapping Venn diagrams of what should women be allowed to expect and ask for, and how do they get to the level of self-knowledge and vulnerability where they feel not just like they know what they want, but confident and able to ask for it. And then you overlap all of that with mortality and a timeline it just what were your first

Danielle Savory 06:08

I mean, I had so many, the first thing that came to mind was the fact that it was presented as this like urgency, right, because of dying, I really loved that theme. And the reason is I've written about this before, I've talked to my clients about this before. But it's been one of the most powerful practices that I've taken from when I was deeply in like the Buddhist meditation world and doing a lot of like learning from that, which was a basically like a death practice. And it's not for the faint of heart. And I think especially in Western culture, we have such this fear, right, about death, about talking about death, like it really is something that most people just like sex are very uncomfortable talking about. It's another taboo conversation, especially in the Western world and the way that we think about it, people are afraid of it. I was even trying to talk to one of my friends about this. And she was like, I can't even go there. Like, you know, how I get triggered

talking about death, like a lot of people have fear around death, you know, they don't want to think about their loved ones dying. But one of the things that allowed me to even start to explore like my own desires was a regular death practice where I go deep into meditation. And it's really uncomfortable, like I'm not saying this is not for the faint of heart, but really imagining that people that I love passing away, and even or myself passing away and what can be brought up somatically, emotionally, mentally is such a different perspective of gratitude, of absolute love, of maybe desire of like, wait, but if this is it, like, what does feel urgent? Like, what do I still want to explore? What do I want to say that I keep like week by week keeps going by and I'm not saying the thing. And it can bring that to a surface in a way that is felt. Because again, you know, if we're in deep meditation or imagination, like your brain doesn't and body doesn't know the difference of this is real or not, just like when you wake up from a dream, and somebody has died, it feels very real. And so, you know, even beyond the sex stuff, I loved the conversation around death and all of the things that it brought up, but also how and why that brought up this urgency and this desire and seeing kind of these things that don't match up in your life, like if I only have this much left, like, these things don't align. And the fact that so many women don't actually ask those questions of themselves, until they're faced with like the ultimate end. And can we start asking these questions sooner? And sometimes a death practice can really bring that gratitude and appreciation where you start to understand you see the things that really do make a difference. And then you're like, oh, it's okay that you didn't pick up your shoes. Like, I'm not really going to care about that later too. It's like the things that become trivial, but like, this part is actually really important to me.

Sara Bybee Fisk 09:31

I felt so much of that. I mean, it just kind of sucks you in. You are not allowed to look away from Molly's death, right? You are not allowed to look away, and you're not allowed to look away through the eyes of several characters who unflinchingly tell her the truth, right? The truth about what is gonna happen to her, the truth about the process that she is in, the truth about the limited time that she has left. It is, I mean, on the one hand, pleasure and mortality seem like opposites, right? Because pleasure is such a lived embodied experience, and her body is failing, and you see it in scene after scene where she is attempting pleasure and her body fails. And she goes after something that she wants, and her body fails. It felt like kind of gut punch after gut punch. If I'm going to be honest, I wanted her to get better. I wanted there to be a scene where the doctor comes in and is like, you know what, actually, you're not dying. We fixed it.

Danielle Savory 10:35 Orgasms, like, heal.

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:36

Yes. I was like- Right. But the characters who unflinchingly tell her the truth are so moving and so meaningful. And I just wondered what your thoughts were about either those relationships or characters specifically.

Danielle Savory 10:54

Yeah, well, I also like that you just brought up before we pass over this point of like the pursuit of pleasure with obstacles, right? And specifically with the obstacles of pain in the body, because for those of you that know my backstory, like that was me. And I think a lot of women, you know, at some point in their life, that's what it feels like. It's like, I want this and I'm starting to get more courageous in the desire for it. But then like getting pushback and pushback and pushback because your body isn't cooperating the way that you want it to. And how pursuing pleasure, despite these obstacles, really is like coming back to our conversation about like intimacy with self is like such a testament to like standing firmly in the ground like I'm worth this. Like I am worth it. Like I don't care how many times my body's like no, no, no, no, no, I want to meet it. I want to collaborate with it. I want to figure out a way that we can begin to move through these obstacles together. Not that I'm ignoring you and pretending this other stuff isn't happening, but how do we work together me and my body and my soul and my heart to create such a beautiful like connection of safety and trust and not abandonment so that we can all, all meeting all of these points of ourselves, right? Experience like this ultimate level of like pleasure. And I think it was that continuous pursuit of it. And to be honest, at some points in that show, I thought that it was going to, she was going to stop that she was going to be like, well, I can't now or I'm in too much pain now or this isn't working and I'm in hospice now. And actually like quit on this mission. And I'm so happy that like till the very end, like this was still at the top of the mind because I think it's so easy, especially as viewers and those of us that have been socialized in this culture to understand like what her husband was saying of like, but this isn't even important. Like we just need to spend time together. All these other ways that her desires to experience sexual pleasure were dismissed and honestly are just kind of dismissed in society from, you know, in general, like her mother dismissed it, her doctor dismissed it, her husband dismissed it. All of these other voices that are like, but why is this the thing? You're spending your last days on like, really? Is this who you've become that somehow that this pursuit of pleasure was so less worthy of her time and attention than just like connection with other people or conversations or I don't even know what she would be doing. Like just letting herself being babied by her husband. Like that should be more appealing to her than an orgasm.

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:57

I'm so glad you brought us back to that point. We'll get to the characters who tell her the truth in a minute, because I think that this is important. She faces such judgment around her choices. And I just want to name some of the cultural narrative that still exists for women around our sexuality. Be desirable. Have a body that's desirable, but don't have so much desire that you're a whore, that you just want sex more than anything else, because that's disgusting and gross.

Danielle Savory 14:30
Yeah, yeah, what's wrong with you?

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:32
What are some of the other kind of cultural, patriarchal bullshit that comes up for you?

Danielle Savory 14:38

Well, I was just I was just noticing like the way even her husband, right? Like there were so many things with her husband Like but one of the things was just like but you're dying Like you need to be taken care of like basically like submit to the thing that I've decided you need more of than you knowing what you need. That was such like a predominant thing throughout but also because some of her sex capades in this show weren't I would say as most people consider like traditional like avenues of exploration when it comes to pleasure. You could just see the eyes of like her family they're like bringing this like submissive into our hospital room or how it was being talked about or going to a sex party like all of these ways that it's like yeah for sure get yours, but only get yours in a way that we have deemed accessible and maybe a little daring but not too daring.

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:44

It really speaks to who gets to have sex, who gets to have sexual pleasure, right? Do sick bodies get to have sexual pleasure? Do bodies that look different, that have different capabilities and capacities? There is such a narrative about who gets to have what type of sex based on what is going on with their body either health-wise or what it looks like or who desires it and who doesn't? That's a big part of it.

Danielle Savory 16:15

Yeah. And I even noticed myself even being, you know, a lifelong learner and person of this work, questioning some of it too. Like, why does this one feel uncomfortable and this one doesn't, right? Like, especially with her husband, I was like, yeah, go get out of there, get your thing, like, all wrong, right? But then when her best friend, like, threw this incredible party for her, I was like, and you're gonna go on like this other day. I was like, that's kind of shitty, you know, like, and why do I think it's shitty? And I still kind of landed on like, I still thought it was shitty, but in a way that felt like there is still nuance. And there is like these certain conversations and like, where, where does it still like fit into like my social okay's or what I think is okay and acceptable and also questioning like, I'm still not sure if like, that is coming from the people pleaser and me or that's coming in like, but your friend really is doing a lot for you and she loves you. And that could be true intimacy in that moment versus like a quick dopamine hit of going on this date, you know, so I do think that there was so much and I love that it brought that kind of like, you know, self-inquiry into my own mind.

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:36

Yeah, and I love that the show just let us experience that and grapple with it and didn't make it clean and pretty like she chose her friend in that moment, which I think a lot of people watching it, I think I had the same reaction you did, like, oh, but she bought you the dresses and then the hats and then you're just gonna leave her.Yeah.And I love that we just get to be left with that feeling because that's our judgment of it. And Molly is so singly focused on this goal of hers to have an orgasm with another person that she knows, I think, that her friendship can handle that and that it will recover because again, kind of coming back around to the characters who really tell her the truth in a lot of different ways, right? There's medical professionals who are really truthful with her in such beautiful ways. But what, let's dive into the friend for a little bit.I forget her name. Do you remember her name?

Danielle Savory 18:38

I don't remember her name but yeah I mean the friend oh my gosh I just loved her so much and I loved how she was also unapologetic and explaining. You know her best friend's desires like okay I'm here I'm with you like you wanna leave your husband you wanna go get your like let's do this you know even though like she was you know showed up fully in support like let's do this without. Maybe fully realizing like what that meant but the way she also just like stood kept standing up for her friend with this pursuit and supporting her you know, whether it was to her boyfriend or I think it was her sister or to the doctor in the room like it was like I am here and I am your advocate and I also love not just that she was such an advocate and right there with her but she created such a safe space for her friend. Friend to have this desire to be able to express it to share with her how it was going to share with her what was going on and I think that still

in this society we really have a hard time doing that with our friends you know like this is still so taboo in so many ways that even with your friends like you're not necessarily going to be like I'm having horrible sex. Or like when she first told her best friend she had never had an orgasm with her husband you know like these kind of things because they feel so shameful let alone the desires feeling shameful like the reality of certain situations feel really shameful we barely even wanna say that sentence to ourselves because what we make it mean let alone having conversations with people we trust and not saying you need to be having friends that you talk to about everything but like having open conversations with somebody like about this that allows you to actually see it.

Sara Bybee Fisk 20:40

That also just kind of points back to this idea that the biggest relationship, the most important relationship should be to our partner, that they complete us, that they should know everything about us, that they know how to meet all our needs. And if they don't, there's something wrong. But I think Nikki, I remember her name, Nikki, the beauty of her being in the way she is in Molly's life is that she is able to just hold the truth of who Molly is and what is happening to her without the judgment that comes at her from so many, so many different people in that show. And she just can witness and hold it. And she offers her something that that most important relationship, her husband, couldn't offer her.

Danielle Savory 21:28

Yes, yes, like the nonjudgment, there is such a big piece because I think even when it comes to close friends, that's not a guarantee either. Like there's very few spaces where it really can.I mean, you and I are both coaches, right? And so it's kind of our job to hold space for like non-judgmental, you know, like observation, awareness, like curiosity. But outside of like the professional realm, not very many people have somebody they can trust to open up to to feel safe in their nervous system with and to not automatically feel like they're going to be judged for what they share.

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:06

That's such a good point. And so if you're listening to this, and you're thinking about, you know, do I have a friend that I could begin to talk about this with? Maybe you do. So Danielle, if someone is listening and wondering, like, do I have a friend, like Nikki, do I have someone who could witness or help me better understand myself without judgment? How might they open up that conversation?

Danielle Savory 22:35

Yeah, well, I think it's the first thing is we just want to take a moment to meet ourselves, because I know that if I were to ask myself that question or realize I didn't have a person like that in my life, my immediate place would be my brain's default is like self-rejection, right? Like, I can't believe I don't have somebody in my life like that. And before, for any of you listening that are like me that that's the first place you go like, there I am again doing it wrong, or I don't even have or like this place of like, laughter, lack or self defecation is to start with like, like, of course, like, it's okay, like, like, I see you. Now you've just identified something you want, like every time we notice there might be this thing that we don't have, like, instead of just thinking, oh, it's I don't have, it's like, oh, my gosh, like, that does like, okay, like that, that might hurt a little bit, like, it makes sense. And now you know, you want to have that kind of relationship with somebody. Now you know, you want to like, open up to the universe to bring this person in, or for you to maybe start having conversation with somebody you already know and trust and then navigating whether or not they might be that person. And so coming back to like, whether or not they they are your person is you can ask, right, you can ask like, Hey, these are some things that I've really been exploring in my own mind. These are some things that are really interesting to me. Like, are you open to having conversation about this? Like, how would you feel if we talked about this, you know, and just asking kind of upfront is how I think that I would do that with one of my friends. The other thing that I have just gotten feedback on because I always have been very comfortable with this topic is you present your own comfortability, even if maybe you're not really that comfortable with it yet. Like, what are you comfortable and just being that person that owns it and says it because right then and there, like when I stopped started like making like, you know, these kind of funny jokes about like, I called them pity titties, like after I like breastfed, my boobs just started like falling into my armpits. I was like, you know what I'm talking about, like pity titties, like the amount of shock on a lot of women's face like, oh my god, like, are you really saying that? But then the other people they're like, yeah, and then they just started saying the same thing. I was like, you're my people. So if you're kind of like out there and daring like I am in these certain social situations, you can also kind of test the waters by, you know, first creating own safety, I've got my own back knowing how you're going to go home and your brain is going to be like, did you say too much?

Danielle Savory 25:21

Did you ostracize yourself? Like, are you that, you know, are you that person? And be like, no matter what, this is what I'm still going to believe about myself. But you can practice, especially in other New York situations where people are around just going outside of like the normal topics, like being a little bit of an overshare, sharing a couple of things, and then seeing how it lands, because right away, you'll kind of get a feel of

somebody like leaning in or joking or giving you a look or like the energy will be there. It's like, I could probably talk to them more about this. Yes.

Sara Bybee Fisk 25:55

Yes, the times when I have spoken up almost universally, it's been like, oh my god, me too, right? Oh, you know, I am wondering the same thing. I have some questions too. And especially among, you know, friendships where there is some existing emotional connection, right? Yeah, there's there's some existing infrastructure where you have been sharing and talking about your lives. I think that's a really great place to open up this conversation because here is what I know. We have been kind of tricked into really siloed lives, right? It's like me in my house with my family, my husband, and we need other women. We need their stories. We need their experiences. We need their wisdom. We need their mistakes, their vulnerability, their words. In a way that I don't think I fully appreciated until very recently. Like, I love I have so many good men in my life. And there are very few men that I allow now to teach me anything or talk to me. I'm done with men telling me things, right? Because that's been my whole life. I want women's voices. And Nikki is one of those I just the beautiful way that she just opens her whole life up and in some ways I was like, girl, are you like destroying your own life for Molly? And she's like, yes, I am. And I love her. I can't not do it. And so everybody gets to watch and kind of make their own judgments about the dynamics in that relationship. But what I know is that we need the voices of other women and we heal best in settings with other women. So many of the wounds that we don't even know are there. And so I just love this aspect of our conversation.

Danielle Savory 27:55

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you're saying that about like, the women because I think it is being witnessed in it. But then also, it's just that, you know, I've always seen this like in my group coaching programs, or like my workshops that I do where it's like multiple women is the minute a woman asks a question, or the minute she shares something, you feel like a collective sigh of relief for like, like actually see their shoulders drop away from their ears. Because in that moment, what you're witnessing is actually a test of self- compassion is actually like this beautiful moment of un, you know, prescribed self- compassion, because that is a moment a woman realizes she's not alone. And being like seen it through somebody else's story through their question through their sharing, and that all of a sudden for the first time, you're like, wait, it's not just me, or I'm not broken. It's such this like visceral sigh of relief, and like this safety to your nervous system, that really does give you permission to continue to explore like these conversations. But I think that really does happen so much in community and, you know, historically speaking, in so many different ways, that we just don't experience as much now, you know, not to say that a lot of the gatherings in the 50s were definitely not without

judgment. But there was still like these like regular gatherings, like my my Grammy used to get together and play bridge all the time. She was part of like a quilt club, you know, I mean, I still do think we have like book clubs and that kind of thing. But these actual purposeful like gatherings where even though you might be like stitching, you are sharing or something comes up or like a piece of advice like these, like containers that allow us to witness one another, learn from one another and then walk away usually with a little bit of self-compassion.

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:01

Yeah, so important. One of the things that really struck me was the grief that Molly felt around never having had an orgasm with another person. Yes, orgasms are fraught things for many women because of our programming about how they're supposed to happen, what they're supposed to look like, what you're supposed to do to get one, what's wrong with you if you don't have one. What are your thoughts there?

Danielle Savory 30:31

I mean, I have so many we could talk about this for like six hours, but really I do think that the main thing comes back to judgment, you know, judgment, like you said of how it's supposed to look, what is okay, what isn't okay, and a willingness to move into discomfort, like that's the other really big part, you know, one of the things that I noticed even in myself and also in my clients is what I call it's a first thought, right? It's like that first like default thought you have in response to something and usually most of us see that first thought and it's truth, right? It's like if your partner brings something up and maybe you feel like it feels like outside of your comfort zone normally and your first thought is like, yuck, like why do they want that or like really that's what you want or like this immediate judgment or that creates this stuckness and creates us actually from pursuing these further because we assume that first thought that comes from our subconscious mind, our default thinking that has been wired and programmed in is like our instinct or likely like what we actually want versus it just being like, oh no, this is just the programmed response. And so I think when it comes to like, that's where the judgment usually happens. And so it doesn't create a safe space for us to even question, for us to even explore further because usually we shut down so many of like our desires or what we want with immediate, like what we've been told is okay or what we've been told it should look like and then we make it about us and not on top of that, the nervous system response really makes it hard to move past this place of feeling triggered in your body to being curious and this potential for pleasure. So understanding kind of like the mechanisms at play, I think are so important because we can see them, right? Like you can see, like I can see in my brain throws out a first thought and I'm like, okay, that's my first thought. But what is my intention? Like what do I actually think? And then noticing how often that first thought already triggers my nervous system. So if I am going to get

further, even if it's just a place of self-inquiry, or if it's like physically, I'm going to explore something like knowing how to again, collaborate with your body and your nervous system to create enough safety so that you're willing and this doesn't mean that you just are totally relaxed. I think that's the other thing a lot of people misunderstand about when it comes to going after sexual desire. Like a lot of times you are going to feel a little bit activated. That isn't a bad thing because we want a little bit of that activation because that is the thing that creates the butterflies. That's the thing that creates more arousal. Like that actually could be the thing that turns you on and it doesn't have to be a complete shutdown. That was kind of a roundabout answer, but I think I got to what you were asking.

Sara Bybee Fisk 33:37

Yeah. And I love that the show let us see that, right? Her activation, her nervousness. And just the idea of first thoughts, I think that's so brilliant, because we aren't even responsible for a lot of those first thoughts, right? They were taught to us, right? I, you know, Mormonism, the religious background that I come from, it's a whole lot of don'ts. There's do not, don't even think about it. You're bad if you're thinking about this, you know, shame and repression. And then all of a sudden you get married and now it's okay. But it's only okay up to a certain point, only certain things are okay. So those first thoughts aren't even yours all the time. And I kind of the metaphor that I have for me right now in this area of sexual exploration in my own life is I have a box, this metaphorical box of all these things that I was told, no, never don't even think about it. And I'm taking the box out and I'm just putting everything on the table. And I'm just looking at it from a place of curiosity and neutrality. It's not good or bad. Like I let somebody else tell me this was good. That's bad. This is good. That's bad. That person is gone, right? All the men are gone. And if something's going to be off the table, I want to take it off for reasons that I like, for reasons that make sense for me, for my relationship with my husband, but I'm not going to let someone else tell me that that's good or bad. But that doesn't mean that the first thoughts aren't still there. Right? When I'm looking at the contents of my box, right?

Danielle Savory 35:25
No pun intended. No pun intended.

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:28
I didn't even get to that. Thank you. Thank you, sex coach, Danielle.

Danielle Savory 35:32

you're welcome. You can count on me for those sexual innuendo jokes. You know, like the other thing I love that you're like, we can just assume the other metaphor that I love to work with, and this is really helpful when it comes to first thoughts, is imagining yourself at a bus station and you didn't, you know, like bus number five takes you to like the part of town that you don't like, like you don't feel good there, it shuts you down, you feel kind of like on edge, all of this sort of thing, and like you've gone on bus five enough that you're like, this doesn't ever take me to where I want to go, but you're like, but bus 25 does, and you're standing at a bus station because what happens at bus stations? Buses come and bus five shows up and you're just pissed. You're like, why is bus five here again? Like bus five shouldn't be here. I decided I didn't even want bus five, and it's like, no, we can just assume bus five, bus four, bus three, bus two, bus one, the one that you first bust on when you were a kid is always going to come through the bus station. We don't need to make it a big deal. We just remember like, oh, of course it is. Like there's that bus. I am at a bus station. It's like, that's my brain. Of course it's going to come up. Of course these thoughts are going to come up, and I'm practicing remembering what bus I am wanting to get on because that is the one that takes me to my destination. And then also having grace, like sometimes you're like scrolling your phone. You're not paying attention. You get on bus five. You're wondering why it stinks. Your legs are sticking to the seat. Like everything's uncomfortable, and you're like, oh shit, it's because I'm on bus five again. Ding, ding, ding. Just get off the bus. Go to the station and wait for bus 25 again.

Sara Bybee Fisk 37:20

Love, love. Molly's exploration is pretty radical, right? And it's, it's driven by her timeline, right? The mortality aspect of the show. And I know that there are a lot of women, I talk to them, they're my clients, they're my friends, who are wondering, is this it for sex for me? Like sex, sex isn't like bad or terrible necessarily, maybe in some cases it is. But what if I want something more? And I'm not necessarily dealing with the mortality timeline that Molly was, but what does a sexual relationship with yourself look like? And a lot of women listening to this, my clients, your clients, you know, women who are interested in a greater degree of self-knowledge, right? Maybe beyond masturbation or just knowing what their, you know, sexual desires are. Where do they begin? Molly's exploration was pretty radical, right? With her mortality timeline. And I can understand a lot of people not being comfortable already for that and not needing to because they're not dying of cancer. But we all are dying, right? But just I'm interested in your thoughts there.

Danielle Savory 38:41

Yeah, you know, and I've asked myself this question, and I will continue to ask it. And for me, one of the places that I think is just really healthy to start is reading, like reading, like actually kind of like what's out there. And I don't mean like reading and just finding out like, Oh, you could use a butt plug, or there's these kind of vibrators, like, great, do that. But I have found just fun, even in romance novels, or smut, or, you know, audios, like audio, erotic audio, like erotica.

Sara Bybee Fisk 39:23

is one app that's been recommended to me by Maggie and Melissa you know who they are yes

Danielle Savory 39:30

Yes. So, you know, listening to this kind of stuff, you'll start to notice like, oh, that gives me a little bit of tingles, or I kind of like that, or maybe like you don't like that, right? You know, so even just exposing yourself, and I personally have found it to be more beneficial when I explore this when it is in story, where I have some identification maybe with like the character or something like that versus just like, oh, there's this act you can do, or you could do this position like that, to me, doesn't really give me much insight of like, that sounds hot, or that feels good, because you're just looking at it more from this like mechanical sort of view. So for me, like seeing context does help and seeing or hearing context, reading context has kind of helped. But the thing that has even resonated with me more than the acts and the acts might come is the tone. So I like to think of like, the tone of an experience that I'm wanting to have, knowing that if you start to pursue a particular tone, and there might be more than one tone, right? Like, there are certain times in my cycle where I might want more like wild or like raw or like animalistic or like, kind of like a dominating sort of tone or a submissive sort of tone. And then there might be other times where emotionally, I feel a little bit more vulnerable and tender, and it's more like a tone of romance or just like care and appreciation, you know, so I think more than just exploring what's out there as far as toys, acts, things to do is start to feel like, as I'm listening to these stories, like, what is the tone of it? What is kind of like the ambiance of this experience and trusting that if you lean into, I want it to feel more like this, that can help a conversation with yourself and also with your partner about maybe it's just how you're acting, who you're being, what you're thinking about, but there also could be some things that you want to bring in that kind of color and like fill out that experience a little bit more.

Sara Bybee Fisk 41:59

I love that idea of tone. That's such a really interesting way to look at that. I also know that there are people who are listening who are gonna be like, okay, so I can listen to some smut, check, check. I know the tone, but to ask is so vulnerable. Like, how do I build the structure around being able to ask for something? Because one of the scenes that was so poignant to me that I really identified with, Molly is tied up in the back of, what is it, pottery barn? We don't even know. And so the character who's playing the Dom wants her to ask for something, and she just is struggling. And I think in that scene, it's because she doesn't know yet what she wants, but she finally gets out like one little thing that she wants. But I also have experience and think just the vulnerability of asking for something with all of that social programming about, be a woman who is desirable, but don't have this wild desire of your own. What are your thoughts about that?

Danielle Savory 43:10

Yeah, I think number one is just acknowledging that, right? How vulnerable, aka scary. Yeah, it actually is. And starting there, like, Oh, like, of course, this is scary. Like, of course, this makes you nervous. You know, of course, your heart is like pitter pattering. Like, this is kind of like uncharted territory. You haven't had this represented. Like, that's the other thing to really understand is like, we haven't actually seen representation of very many women asking for what they want, especially in the vulnerable context of sexuality and pleasure. And so that acknowledgement alone offers such a, you know, a balm to your nervous system to just kind of calm down and make it not something you're doing wrong, but also making the fear not wrong, that this is something that is a little bit scary. And how can I meet myself? And sometimes, that is a lot of the work before you even ask. And then the other thing that I have, you know, worked with my clients is first, like, starting to identify on your own, and noticing the moments you do want to ask, and you don't, and starting to see, like, why didn't I just without judgment again, and just this curiosity, like, what was I afraid of in that moment? Because sometimes it's, you know, I mean, usually in vulnerability, it's like a fear of rejection, we're afraid that the thing that we want to do is going to be rejected, the idea that we have might be yucked, that we are going to feel ostracized, that it's going to create distance between our partner and ourselves, that they're not going to like us that they're going to think we're dirty or wrong for asking. And so when you start to identify those, then you really can see the holes that need to be met, and the healing, and the safety that you need to create around those beliefs or those fears that you've identified. And I also like to just make it, instead of just being like, I'm going to just say what I want, you can also bring in a collaborative conversation. And I would recommend because we're already vulnerable, and we're naked, and we're doing it, you know, so maybe not during, but another time, like, hey, like, and just be honest, like, this makes me a little nervous. But like, I'd love to have a conversation about sex, like, when would be a good time? Or I want to just, you know, I'm thinking more about this, like, as we continue into this next chapter of our life, and then having a kind of conversation where you're like, you know, ask, ask both of you, like, what is something you've always wanted to try, you know, or what is something

you've always fantasized about, like, and be clear, because it's also might be hard for you to hear something that your partner is bringing up. And so allowing like both of it, like, this is safe, but we can just bring like one thing up, or one thing that we've thought about.

Danielle Savory 46:10

And that can start to just kind of get the ball rolling. But I think more important than anything is like, how can I create safety with myself? How can I create a strategy? Like if your fear is like, they're gonna say blah, blah, blah, like, create a strategy ahead of time of how you're going to meet yourself and be on your own side, no matter what. That for me has helped so much with these kind of conversations is because you want to just like, have them respond great, right? Of course, we all do, but we don't know. And so that's what vulnerability is, you don't know. And so really, like having a strategy, how am I going to create safety ahead of time, creating safety in the conversation, and then a strategy for afterwards, how will you what are you going to say to yourself? Not like, See, I told you, you shouldn't have said that. Now you're abandoning you again, right? That's why I think that this is such a practice of like true self intimacy. Because not only are you being vulnerable with somebody else, you're being vulnerable and honest with yourself, but you have to have that back end part of like, I am going to be there for you no matter what.

Sara Bybee Fisk 47:17

I love that. And I'll just put in a plug, my never-ending crusade to have women check their hormones and see if HRT hormone replacement therapy is something you also have to have the hormonal support to be able to enjoy and explore. And I think again, you know, kind of circling back to programming, we have such stories about how our sexuality is supposed to just kind of wane and go away as we get older. But I know so many women in perimenopause and menopause are having the best sex of their lives, because they have created this kind of not just safety structure, and vulnerability structure, but they also are getting the health support that they need. And that's something you talked about with your doctor, right? To be able to really enjoy pleasure well into, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s. And God, that's what I want.

Danielle Savory 48:18

Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to say this caveat because I hear, you know, from being out there, it's like all of us naturally, this isn't judgment on anybody, want a quick fix. And from working with so many clients going through perimenopause and menopause and witnessing their journey with pleasure, the hormones, knowing like that they can help,

right, but like, that doesn't cure your programming. Like, right? Yeah. And so that like, this is like one piece of the puzzle. Because if you've never brought up to the surface, why am I resisting pleasure? If you've never brought up to the surface, like why am I not feeling connection with my husband? Why you don't feel safe being vulnerable? Why you've never explored your own desires? I don't care how much HRT you do, you're still going to come up short. And that is something that's not being said in this hormone conversation that I really want to make an important point of because I've seen so many women hoping like this is it, this is going to fix my libido and not that it can't make a difference. It can I have like experienced it on my own. But I've also done a lot of like this work where it was like, it wasn't bad before. Like that's the thing is we're like, Yeah, I want that it must be my hormones. But if you look even before you are in perimenopause, like, you probably weren't exploring pleasure or exploring your desires, or even what you knew ahead of time hormones doesn't do that. And I see so many women really, like, like doubling down on the belief, I am broken because now they've gone to the hormone replacement therapy and things still aren't shifting the way that they want. And that's because there's this subconscious stuff, there's our nervous system work, there's communication that needs to happen with yourself and your partner still in order to actually pursue pleasure.

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:11

That is such a great point. Thank you for making that. Hormones will not do that work for you.

Danielle Savory 50:16

Yes. They're great. They can really help in so many things. I am 100% with you. Every single woman should go and take a look at this. It's not the only thing. Diet isn't the only thing to feel healthy and fit. There's so many other elements.

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:33

I love this conversation. Is there anything that you haven't gotten to say that you really wanted to make sure you put into words? I mean, I know we could talk for another six hours.

Danielle Savory 50:45

The only thing that I think that I just want to come back to that we briefly mentioned and just kind of like a takeaway is the thing that you're going to see in this show over and

over and over is the struggle for her to be able to orgasm with somebody else versus just with herself, right? And I just want to like normalize it in the way that like, if that's you, and that's what you're experiencing, like, you're not broken again, like coming back to like, that's totally understandable, and it's okay. And it is because we have created enough safety for ourselves to explore our pleasure and our desire. And we don't have to be as vulnerable when it's just with ourselves, where that piece of vulnerability and intimacy does come into play with another person. And so if that is you, and you're listening to this, like, welcome to the club totally normal. And this is where we get to, you know, have the opportunity to kind of move into the more challenging side of things sometimes, which is being vulnerable and moving through that discomfort and creating the safety of that vulnerability.

Sara Bybee Fisk 51:57

Thank you, Danielle. That was right on. I'm so grateful for you and for the conversations we have had that have been really important for me. If people want to find you, find out more about your work and what you do, where should they go?

Danielle Savory 52:11

Yeah, you can go to my website daniellesavory.com. I'm on instagram at danielle.savory. I'm trying to start on TikTok. I don't even know my handle. You can probably just put in my name and you'll recognize me. And then other than that, even though I'm not currently recording new episodes, it's my pleasure is a 200 episode library of like, pure knowledge about all of this stuff when it comes to sexuality pleasure. And so many of our obstacles.

Sara Bybee Fisk 52:44
Thanks again. Love you, friend. You too.

Danielle Savory 52:47 Thanks for having me.

Episode 115 - "Dying for Sex" with Danielle Savory

So many women are not experiencing the sex, orgasms, and intimacy they genuinely want. Often, they blame themselves for this or settle for the belief that “this is just as good as it gets.” But it doesn’t have to be that way. I’m so excited to welcome back master certified coach, podcast host, and sexual pleasure and intimacy expert Danielle Savory. In this episode, we dive into the powerful themes of the newly released series "Dying for Sex" and explore the larger conversation about the self-intimacy and vulnerability that is required for women to understand and advocate for their sexual wants and needs. Here’s what we cover:

• The harmful cultural narratives that continue to shape women’s experiences of sexuality

• How developing intimacy with yourself helps you overcome obstacles to pleasure

• Why our healing and exploration thrive in the presence of other women

• How to open up a conversation around sexuality with a friend 

• The role of the body and nervous system in cultivating openness and curiosity around pleasure 

• Practical starting points for women ready to explore their sexual desire

I can't wait for you to listen!

Check out the series "Dying for Sex": https://www.imdb.com/title/

Find Danielle here: 

https://www.daniellesavory.com/

https://www.instagram.com/danielle.savory/

https://www.daniellesavory.com/podcast 

Find Sara here:

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57
Danielle Savory, I am so glad that we get to have this conversation.

Danielle Savory 01:02
Me too. I have been looking forward to it ever since you sent me the text like let's do this

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:07

What do you want people to know? I mean, everybody already knows who you are. But for those who are late to the game, Daniel Savory sex coach, what do you want people to know about you?

Danielle Savory 01:17

You know, the thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is being a lifelong learner. And that is one of the things I have absolutely love that has kept me involved in this work, is this constant striving to like, understand, I mean, human psychology in general, I think you and I both geek out on all of the ways that we're socialized, how it impacts our nervous system, yada, but specifically, and really watching because it's presenting itself in such a different way, the impact that socialization has on the way that we show up with our sexuality and really all of these avenues that we can find, especially those of us socialized as women that are blocking us from feeling good, right, these messages that are saying like, let's get to the personal growth, but it's really just about surviving like enough to get by so you don't feel awful. But we don't talk about like, once we get to ground zero, let's talk about feeling like ecstatic and alive and like turned on and how despite all of the huge movements and progress we've made with sexuality and talking about mental load and people pleasing and all of these sorts of things, it's still kind of just getting us to like, a level that should be a birthright to begin with, let alone like a level that is like, of so much more joy, and there's just so many layers there. And so I think more than anything, like I'm just a lifelong scholar of this work and will continue just to show up in my own life, because I'm my best subject test. And then of course, to my clients and what I'm seeing in the world. So yes, that's who I am.

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:08

Well, I have been the beneficiary of that lifelong learning and your obsession with women and pleasure and getting them into their bodies and into their bodies in a safe way, into their bodies in an intimate, vulnerable way. It has been, we've had a couple of conversations and one of them, we recorded podcast episode number 25 where you said something that has kind of been rolling around in my head ever since. And it has to do with the level of kind of self-intimacy and self-vulnerability that is required for a woman to really know what she wants in sexual experiences. And I realized at the time that I didn't think I had it. And that's, there's a lot there that maybe we'll touch on today, but that really just has kind of been coming up and coming up and coming up. And I hear it in the experiences of so many women that I talked to because not only are they having bad sex or having sex that isn't fulfilling, not having orgasms, not experiencing the type of like intimacy and connectedness that they want, but they're blaming themselves for it. They are putting up with it. And they're kind of thinking this is as good as it gets. And they are experiencing kind of the slow decline or the die-off of their sex lives as just something normal. Like this is what is supposed to happen as you age, you just experience less desire and that's just how it goes. And so that's kind of like the backdrop for everything that was on my mind when Hulu dropped Dying for Sex. And I'll say right now, if you have not, if you're listening and you have not watched the show, don't listen to this if you're going to watch it, because we're going to talk about a lot of things that will spoil it for you or listen to it and then watch it later, your choice. But if you decide to watch it, but watch it and I will say, make sure that you look up the themes and the subject matter so that you know what you will experience and see because coming from a conservative religious background, that is, it's not something I would have ever watched before. And I just want people to be prepared. But it has been like few shows have affected me the way that Dying for Sex has affected me, because it talks about kind of all of these overlapping Venn diagrams of what should women be allowed to expect and ask for, and how do they get to the level of self-knowledge and vulnerability where they feel not just like they know what they want, but confident and able to ask for it. And then you overlap all of that with mortality and a timeline it just what were your first

Danielle Savory 06:08

I mean, I had so many, the first thing that came to mind was the fact that it was presented as this like urgency, right, because of dying, I really loved that theme. And the reason is I've written about this before, I've talked to my clients about this before. But it's been one of the most powerful practices that I've taken from when I was deeply in like the Buddhist meditation world and doing a lot of like learning from that, which was a basically like a death practice. And it's not for the faint of heart. And I think especially in Western culture, we have such this fear, right, about death, about talking about death, like it really is something that most people just like sex are very uncomfortable talking about. It's another taboo conversation, especially in the Western world and the way that we think about it, people are afraid of it. I was even trying to talk to one of my friends about this. And she was like, I can't even go there. Like, you know, how I get triggered

talking about death, like a lot of people have fear around death, you know, they don't want to think about their loved ones dying. But one of the things that allowed me to even start to explore like my own desires was a regular death practice where I go deep into meditation. And it's really uncomfortable, like I'm not saying this is not for the faint of heart, but really imagining that people that I love passing away, and even or myself passing away and what can be brought up somatically, emotionally, mentally is such a different perspective of gratitude, of absolute love, of maybe desire of like, wait, but if this is it, like, what does feel urgent? Like, what do I still want to explore? What do I want to say that I keep like week by week keeps going by and I'm not saying the thing. And it can bring that to a surface in a way that is felt. Because again, you know, if we're in deep meditation or imagination, like your brain doesn't and body doesn't know the difference of this is real or not, just like when you wake up from a dream, and somebody has died, it feels very real. And so, you know, even beyond the sex stuff, I loved the conversation around death and all of the things that it brought up, but also how and why that brought up this urgency and this desire and seeing kind of these things that don't match up in your life, like if I only have this much left, like, these things don't align. And the fact that so many women don't actually ask those questions of themselves, until they're faced with like the ultimate end. And can we start asking these questions sooner? And sometimes a death practice can really bring that gratitude and appreciation where you start to understand you see the things that really do make a difference. And then you're like, oh, it's okay that you didn't pick up your shoes. Like, I'm not really going to care about that later too. It's like the things that become trivial, but like, this part is actually really important to me.

Sara Bybee Fisk 09:31

I felt so much of that. I mean, it just kind of sucks you in. You are not allowed to look away from Molly's death, right? You are not allowed to look away, and you're not allowed to look away through the eyes of several characters who unflinchingly tell her the truth, right? The truth about what is gonna happen to her, the truth about the process that she is in, the truth about the limited time that she has left. It is, I mean, on the one hand, pleasure and mortality seem like opposites, right? Because pleasure is such a lived embodied experience, and her body is failing, and you see it in scene after scene where she is attempting pleasure and her body fails. And she goes after something that she wants, and her body fails. It felt like kind of gut punch after gut punch. If I'm going to be honest, I wanted her to get better. I wanted there to be a scene where the doctor comes in and is like, you know what, actually, you're not dying. We fixed it.

Danielle Savory 10:35 Orgasms, like, heal.

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:36

Yes. I was like- Right. But the characters who unflinchingly tell her the truth are so moving and so meaningful. And I just wondered what your thoughts were about either those relationships or characters specifically.

Danielle Savory 10:54

Yeah, well, I also like that you just brought up before we pass over this point of like the pursuit of pleasure with obstacles, right? And specifically with the obstacles of pain in the body, because for those of you that know my backstory, like that was me. And I think a lot of women, you know, at some point in their life, that's what it feels like. It's like, I want this and I'm starting to get more courageous in the desire for it. But then like getting pushback and pushback and pushback because your body isn't cooperating the way that you want it to. And how pursuing pleasure, despite these obstacles, really is like coming back to our conversation about like intimacy with self is like such a testament to like standing firmly in the ground like I'm worth this. Like I am worth it. Like I don't care how many times my body's like no, no, no, no, no, I want to meet it. I want to collaborate with it. I want to figure out a way that we can begin to move through these obstacles together. Not that I'm ignoring you and pretending this other stuff isn't happening, but how do we work together me and my body and my soul and my heart to create such a beautiful like connection of safety and trust and not abandonment so that we can all, all meeting all of these points of ourselves, right? Experience like this ultimate level of like pleasure. And I think it was that continuous pursuit of it. And to be honest, at some points in that show, I thought that it was going to, she was going to stop that she was going to be like, well, I can't now or I'm in too much pain now or this isn't working and I'm in hospice now. And actually like quit on this mission. And I'm so happy that like till the very end, like this was still at the top of the mind because I think it's so easy, especially as viewers and those of us that have been socialized in this culture to understand like what her husband was saying of like, but this isn't even important. Like we just need to spend time together. All these other ways that her desires to experience sexual pleasure were dismissed and honestly are just kind of dismissed in society from, you know, in general, like her mother dismissed it, her doctor dismissed it, her husband dismissed it. All of these other voices that are like, but why is this the thing? You're spending your last days on like, really? Is this who you've become that somehow that this pursuit of pleasure was so less worthy of her time and attention than just like connection with other people or conversations or I don't even know what she would be doing. Like just letting herself being babied by her husband. Like that should be more appealing to her than an orgasm.

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:57

I'm so glad you brought us back to that point. We'll get to the characters who tell her the truth in a minute, because I think that this is important. She faces such judgment around her choices. And I just want to name some of the cultural narrative that still exists for women around our sexuality. Be desirable. Have a body that's desirable, but don't have so much desire that you're a whore, that you just want sex more than anything else, because that's disgusting and gross.

Danielle Savory 14:30
Yeah, yeah, what's wrong with you?

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:32
What are some of the other kind of cultural, patriarchal bullshit that comes up for you?

Danielle Savory 14:38

Well, I was just I was just noticing like the way even her husband, right? Like there were so many things with her husband Like but one of the things was just like but you're dying Like you need to be taken care of like basically like submit to the thing that I've decided you need more of than you knowing what you need. That was such like a predominant thing throughout but also because some of her sex capades in this show weren't I would say as most people consider like traditional like avenues of exploration when it comes to pleasure. You could just see the eyes of like her family they're like bringing this like submissive into our hospital room or how it was being talked about or going to a sex party like all of these ways that it's like yeah for sure get yours, but only get yours in a way that we have deemed accessible and maybe a little daring but not too daring.

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:44

It really speaks to who gets to have sex, who gets to have sexual pleasure, right? Do sick bodies get to have sexual pleasure? Do bodies that look different, that have different capabilities and capacities? There is such a narrative about who gets to have what type of sex based on what is going on with their body either health-wise or what it looks like or who desires it and who doesn't? That's a big part of it.

Danielle Savory 16:15

Yeah. And I even noticed myself even being, you know, a lifelong learner and person of this work, questioning some of it too. Like, why does this one feel uncomfortable and this one doesn't, right? Like, especially with her husband, I was like, yeah, go get out of there, get your thing, like, all wrong, right? But then when her best friend, like, threw this incredible party for her, I was like, and you're gonna go on like this other day. I was like, that's kind of shitty, you know, like, and why do I think it's shitty? And I still kind of landed on like, I still thought it was shitty, but in a way that felt like there is still nuance. And there is like these certain conversations and like, where, where does it still like fit into like my social okay's or what I think is okay and acceptable and also questioning like, I'm still not sure if like, that is coming from the people pleaser and me or that's coming in like, but your friend really is doing a lot for you and she loves you. And that could be true intimacy in that moment versus like a quick dopamine hit of going on this date, you know, so I do think that there was so much and I love that it brought that kind of like, you know, self-inquiry into my own mind.

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:36

Yeah, and I love that the show just let us experience that and grapple with it and didn't make it clean and pretty like she chose her friend in that moment, which I think a lot of people watching it, I think I had the same reaction you did, like, oh, but she bought you the dresses and then the hats and then you're just gonna leave her.Yeah.And I love that we just get to be left with that feeling because that's our judgment of it. And Molly is so singly focused on this goal of hers to have an orgasm with another person that she knows, I think, that her friendship can handle that and that it will recover because again, kind of coming back around to the characters who really tell her the truth in a lot of different ways, right? There's medical professionals who are really truthful with her in such beautiful ways. But what, let's dive into the friend for a little bit.I forget her name. Do you remember her name?

Danielle Savory 18:38

I don't remember her name but yeah I mean the friend oh my gosh I just loved her so much and I loved how she was also unapologetic and explaining. You know her best friend's desires like okay I'm here I'm with you like you wanna leave your husband you wanna go get your like let's do this you know even though like she was you know showed up fully in support like let's do this without. Maybe fully realizing like what that meant but the way she also just like stood kept standing up for her friend with this pursuit and supporting her you know, whether it was to her boyfriend or I think it was her sister or to the doctor in the room like it was like I am here and I am your advocate and I also love not just that she was such an advocate and right there with her but she created such a safe space for her friend. Friend to have this desire to be able to express it to share with her how it was going to share with her what was going on and I think that still

in this society we really have a hard time doing that with our friends you know like this is still so taboo in so many ways that even with your friends like you're not necessarily going to be like I'm having horrible sex. Or like when she first told her best friend she had never had an orgasm with her husband you know like these kind of things because they feel so shameful let alone the desires feeling shameful like the reality of certain situations feel really shameful we barely even wanna say that sentence to ourselves because what we make it mean let alone having conversations with people we trust and not saying you need to be having friends that you talk to about everything but like having open conversations with somebody like about this that allows you to actually see it.

Sara Bybee Fisk 20:40

That also just kind of points back to this idea that the biggest relationship, the most important relationship should be to our partner, that they complete us, that they should know everything about us, that they know how to meet all our needs. And if they don't, there's something wrong. But I think Nikki, I remember her name, Nikki, the beauty of her being in the way she is in Molly's life is that she is able to just hold the truth of who Molly is and what is happening to her without the judgment that comes at her from so many, so many different people in that show. And she just can witness and hold it. And she offers her something that that most important relationship, her husband, couldn't offer her.

Danielle Savory 21:28

Yes, yes, like the nonjudgment, there is such a big piece because I think even when it comes to close friends, that's not a guarantee either. Like there's very few spaces where it really can.I mean, you and I are both coaches, right? And so it's kind of our job to hold space for like non-judgmental, you know, like observation, awareness, like curiosity. But outside of like the professional realm, not very many people have somebody they can trust to open up to to feel safe in their nervous system with and to not automatically feel like they're going to be judged for what they share.

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:06

That's such a good point. And so if you're listening to this, and you're thinking about, you know, do I have a friend that I could begin to talk about this with? Maybe you do. So Danielle, if someone is listening and wondering, like, do I have a friend, like Nikki, do I have someone who could witness or help me better understand myself without judgment? How might they open up that conversation?

Danielle Savory 22:35

Yeah, well, I think it's the first thing is we just want to take a moment to meet ourselves, because I know that if I were to ask myself that question or realize I didn't have a person like that in my life, my immediate place would be my brain's default is like self-rejection, right? Like, I can't believe I don't have somebody in my life like that. And before, for any of you listening that are like me that that's the first place you go like, there I am again doing it wrong, or I don't even have or like this place of like, laughter, lack or self defecation is to start with like, like, of course, like, it's okay, like, like, I see you. Now you've just identified something you want, like every time we notice there might be this thing that we don't have, like, instead of just thinking, oh, it's I don't have, it's like, oh, my gosh, like, that does like, okay, like that, that might hurt a little bit, like, it makes sense. And now you know, you want to have that kind of relationship with somebody. Now you know, you want to like, open up to the universe to bring this person in, or for you to maybe start having conversation with somebody you already know and trust and then navigating whether or not they might be that person. And so coming back to like, whether or not they they are your person is you can ask, right, you can ask like, Hey, these are some things that I've really been exploring in my own mind. These are some things that are really interesting to me. Like, are you open to having conversation about this? Like, how would you feel if we talked about this, you know, and just asking kind of upfront is how I think that I would do that with one of my friends. The other thing that I have just gotten feedback on because I always have been very comfortable with this topic is you present your own comfortability, even if maybe you're not really that comfortable with it yet. Like, what are you comfortable and just being that person that owns it and says it because right then and there, like when I stopped started like making like, you know, these kind of funny jokes about like, I called them pity titties, like after I like breastfed, my boobs just started like falling into my armpits. I was like, you know what I'm talking about, like pity titties, like the amount of shock on a lot of women's face like, oh my god, like, are you really saying that? But then the other people they're like, yeah, and then they just started saying the same thing. I was like, you're my people. So if you're kind of like out there and daring like I am in these certain social situations, you can also kind of test the waters by, you know, first creating own safety, I've got my own back knowing how you're going to go home and your brain is going to be like, did you say too much?

Danielle Savory 25:21

Did you ostracize yourself? Like, are you that, you know, are you that person? And be like, no matter what, this is what I'm still going to believe about myself. But you can practice, especially in other New York situations where people are around just going outside of like the normal topics, like being a little bit of an overshare, sharing a couple of things, and then seeing how it lands, because right away, you'll kind of get a feel of

somebody like leaning in or joking or giving you a look or like the energy will be there. It's like, I could probably talk to them more about this. Yes.

Sara Bybee Fisk 25:55

Yes, the times when I have spoken up almost universally, it's been like, oh my god, me too, right? Oh, you know, I am wondering the same thing. I have some questions too. And especially among, you know, friendships where there is some existing emotional connection, right? Yeah, there's there's some existing infrastructure where you have been sharing and talking about your lives. I think that's a really great place to open up this conversation because here is what I know. We have been kind of tricked into really siloed lives, right? It's like me in my house with my family, my husband, and we need other women. We need their stories. We need their experiences. We need their wisdom. We need their mistakes, their vulnerability, their words. In a way that I don't think I fully appreciated until very recently. Like, I love I have so many good men in my life. And there are very few men that I allow now to teach me anything or talk to me. I'm done with men telling me things, right? Because that's been my whole life. I want women's voices. And Nikki is one of those I just the beautiful way that she just opens her whole life up and in some ways I was like, girl, are you like destroying your own life for Molly? And she's like, yes, I am. And I love her. I can't not do it. And so everybody gets to watch and kind of make their own judgments about the dynamics in that relationship. But what I know is that we need the voices of other women and we heal best in settings with other women. So many of the wounds that we don't even know are there. And so I just love this aspect of our conversation.

Danielle Savory 27:55

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you're saying that about like, the women because I think it is being witnessed in it. But then also, it's just that, you know, I've always seen this like in my group coaching programs, or like my workshops that I do where it's like multiple women is the minute a woman asks a question, or the minute she shares something, you feel like a collective sigh of relief for like, like actually see their shoulders drop away from their ears. Because in that moment, what you're witnessing is actually a test of self- compassion is actually like this beautiful moment of un, you know, prescribed self- compassion, because that is a moment a woman realizes she's not alone. And being like seen it through somebody else's story through their question through their sharing, and that all of a sudden for the first time, you're like, wait, it's not just me, or I'm not broken. It's such this like visceral sigh of relief, and like this safety to your nervous system, that really does give you permission to continue to explore like these conversations. But I think that really does happen so much in community and, you know, historically speaking, in so many different ways, that we just don't experience as much now, you know, not to say that a lot of the gatherings in the 50s were definitely not without

judgment. But there was still like these like regular gatherings, like my my Grammy used to get together and play bridge all the time. She was part of like a quilt club, you know, I mean, I still do think we have like book clubs and that kind of thing. But these actual purposeful like gatherings where even though you might be like stitching, you are sharing or something comes up or like a piece of advice like these, like containers that allow us to witness one another, learn from one another and then walk away usually with a little bit of self-compassion.

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:01

Yeah, so important. One of the things that really struck me was the grief that Molly felt around never having had an orgasm with another person. Yes, orgasms are fraught things for many women because of our programming about how they're supposed to happen, what they're supposed to look like, what you're supposed to do to get one, what's wrong with you if you don't have one. What are your thoughts there?

Danielle Savory 30:31

I mean, I have so many we could talk about this for like six hours, but really I do think that the main thing comes back to judgment, you know, judgment, like you said of how it's supposed to look, what is okay, what isn't okay, and a willingness to move into discomfort, like that's the other really big part, you know, one of the things that I noticed even in myself and also in my clients is what I call it's a first thought, right? It's like that first like default thought you have in response to something and usually most of us see that first thought and it's truth, right? It's like if your partner brings something up and maybe you feel like it feels like outside of your comfort zone normally and your first thought is like, yuck, like why do they want that or like really that's what you want or like this immediate judgment or that creates this stuckness and creates us actually from pursuing these further because we assume that first thought that comes from our subconscious mind, our default thinking that has been wired and programmed in is like our instinct or likely like what we actually want versus it just being like, oh no, this is just the programmed response. And so I think when it comes to like, that's where the judgment usually happens. And so it doesn't create a safe space for us to even question, for us to even explore further because usually we shut down so many of like our desires or what we want with immediate, like what we've been told is okay or what we've been told it should look like and then we make it about us and not on top of that, the nervous system response really makes it hard to move past this place of feeling triggered in your body to being curious and this potential for pleasure. So understanding kind of like the mechanisms at play, I think are so important because we can see them, right? Like you can see, like I can see in my brain throws out a first thought and I'm like, okay, that's my first thought. But what is my intention? Like what do I actually think? And then noticing how often that first thought already triggers my nervous system. So if I am going to get

further, even if it's just a place of self-inquiry, or if it's like physically, I'm going to explore something like knowing how to again, collaborate with your body and your nervous system to create enough safety so that you're willing and this doesn't mean that you just are totally relaxed. I think that's the other thing a lot of people misunderstand about when it comes to going after sexual desire. Like a lot of times you are going to feel a little bit activated. That isn't a bad thing because we want a little bit of that activation because that is the thing that creates the butterflies. That's the thing that creates more arousal. Like that actually could be the thing that turns you on and it doesn't have to be a complete shutdown. That was kind of a roundabout answer, but I think I got to what you were asking.

Sara Bybee Fisk 33:37

Yeah. And I love that the show let us see that, right? Her activation, her nervousness. And just the idea of first thoughts, I think that's so brilliant, because we aren't even responsible for a lot of those first thoughts, right? They were taught to us, right? I, you know, Mormonism, the religious background that I come from, it's a whole lot of don'ts. There's do not, don't even think about it. You're bad if you're thinking about this, you know, shame and repression. And then all of a sudden you get married and now it's okay. But it's only okay up to a certain point, only certain things are okay. So those first thoughts aren't even yours all the time. And I kind of the metaphor that I have for me right now in this area of sexual exploration in my own life is I have a box, this metaphorical box of all these things that I was told, no, never don't even think about it. And I'm taking the box out and I'm just putting everything on the table. And I'm just looking at it from a place of curiosity and neutrality. It's not good or bad. Like I let somebody else tell me this was good. That's bad. This is good. That's bad. That person is gone, right? All the men are gone. And if something's going to be off the table, I want to take it off for reasons that I like, for reasons that make sense for me, for my relationship with my husband, but I'm not going to let someone else tell me that that's good or bad. But that doesn't mean that the first thoughts aren't still there. Right? When I'm looking at the contents of my box, right?

Danielle Savory 35:25
No pun intended. No pun intended.

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:28
I didn't even get to that. Thank you. Thank you, sex coach, Danielle.

Danielle Savory 35:32

you're welcome. You can count on me for those sexual innuendo jokes. You know, like the other thing I love that you're like, we can just assume the other metaphor that I love to work with, and this is really helpful when it comes to first thoughts, is imagining yourself at a bus station and you didn't, you know, like bus number five takes you to like the part of town that you don't like, like you don't feel good there, it shuts you down, you feel kind of like on edge, all of this sort of thing, and like you've gone on bus five enough that you're like, this doesn't ever take me to where I want to go, but you're like, but bus 25 does, and you're standing at a bus station because what happens at bus stations? Buses come and bus five shows up and you're just pissed. You're like, why is bus five here again? Like bus five shouldn't be here. I decided I didn't even want bus five, and it's like, no, we can just assume bus five, bus four, bus three, bus two, bus one, the one that you first bust on when you were a kid is always going to come through the bus station. We don't need to make it a big deal. We just remember like, oh, of course it is. Like there's that bus. I am at a bus station. It's like, that's my brain. Of course it's going to come up. Of course these thoughts are going to come up, and I'm practicing remembering what bus I am wanting to get on because that is the one that takes me to my destination. And then also having grace, like sometimes you're like scrolling your phone. You're not paying attention. You get on bus five. You're wondering why it stinks. Your legs are sticking to the seat. Like everything's uncomfortable, and you're like, oh shit, it's because I'm on bus five again. Ding, ding, ding. Just get off the bus. Go to the station and wait for bus 25 again.

Sara Bybee Fisk 37:20

Love, love. Molly's exploration is pretty radical, right? And it's, it's driven by her timeline, right? The mortality aspect of the show. And I know that there are a lot of women, I talk to them, they're my clients, they're my friends, who are wondering, is this it for sex for me? Like sex, sex isn't like bad or terrible necessarily, maybe in some cases it is. But what if I want something more? And I'm not necessarily dealing with the mortality timeline that Molly was, but what does a sexual relationship with yourself look like? And a lot of women listening to this, my clients, your clients, you know, women who are interested in a greater degree of self-knowledge, right? Maybe beyond masturbation or just knowing what their, you know, sexual desires are. Where do they begin? Molly's exploration was pretty radical, right? With her mortality timeline. And I can understand a lot of people not being comfortable already for that and not needing to because they're not dying of cancer. But we all are dying, right? But just I'm interested in your thoughts there.

Danielle Savory 38:41

Yeah, you know, and I've asked myself this question, and I will continue to ask it. And for me, one of the places that I think is just really healthy to start is reading, like reading, like actually kind of like what's out there. And I don't mean like reading and just finding out like, Oh, you could use a butt plug, or there's these kind of vibrators, like, great, do that. But I have found just fun, even in romance novels, or smut, or, you know, audios, like audio, erotic audio, like erotica.

Sara Bybee Fisk 39:23

is one app that's been recommended to me by Maggie and Melissa you know who they are yes

Danielle Savory 39:30

Yes. So, you know, listening to this kind of stuff, you'll start to notice like, oh, that gives me a little bit of tingles, or I kind of like that, or maybe like you don't like that, right? You know, so even just exposing yourself, and I personally have found it to be more beneficial when I explore this when it is in story, where I have some identification maybe with like the character or something like that versus just like, oh, there's this act you can do, or you could do this position like that, to me, doesn't really give me much insight of like, that sounds hot, or that feels good, because you're just looking at it more from this like mechanical sort of view. So for me, like seeing context does help and seeing or hearing context, reading context has kind of helped. But the thing that has even resonated with me more than the acts and the acts might come is the tone. So I like to think of like, the tone of an experience that I'm wanting to have, knowing that if you start to pursue a particular tone, and there might be more than one tone, right? Like, there are certain times in my cycle where I might want more like wild or like raw or like animalistic or like, kind of like a dominating sort of tone or a submissive sort of tone. And then there might be other times where emotionally, I feel a little bit more vulnerable and tender, and it's more like a tone of romance or just like care and appreciation, you know, so I think more than just exploring what's out there as far as toys, acts, things to do is start to feel like, as I'm listening to these stories, like, what is the tone of it? What is kind of like the ambiance of this experience and trusting that if you lean into, I want it to feel more like this, that can help a conversation with yourself and also with your partner about maybe it's just how you're acting, who you're being, what you're thinking about, but there also could be some things that you want to bring in that kind of color and like fill out that experience a little bit more.

Sara Bybee Fisk 41:59

I love that idea of tone. That's such a really interesting way to look at that. I also know that there are people who are listening who are gonna be like, okay, so I can listen to some smut, check, check. I know the tone, but to ask is so vulnerable. Like, how do I build the structure around being able to ask for something? Because one of the scenes that was so poignant to me that I really identified with, Molly is tied up in the back of, what is it, pottery barn? We don't even know. And so the character who's playing the Dom wants her to ask for something, and she just is struggling. And I think in that scene, it's because she doesn't know yet what she wants, but she finally gets out like one little thing that she wants. But I also have experience and think just the vulnerability of asking for something with all of that social programming about, be a woman who is desirable, but don't have this wild desire of your own. What are your thoughts about that?

Danielle Savory 43:10

Yeah, I think number one is just acknowledging that, right? How vulnerable, aka scary. Yeah, it actually is. And starting there, like, Oh, like, of course, this is scary. Like, of course, this makes you nervous. You know, of course, your heart is like pitter pattering. Like, this is kind of like uncharted territory. You haven't had this represented. Like, that's the other thing to really understand is like, we haven't actually seen representation of very many women asking for what they want, especially in the vulnerable context of sexuality and pleasure. And so that acknowledgement alone offers such a, you know, a balm to your nervous system to just kind of calm down and make it not something you're doing wrong, but also making the fear not wrong, that this is something that is a little bit scary. And how can I meet myself? And sometimes, that is a lot of the work before you even ask. And then the other thing that I have, you know, worked with my clients is first, like, starting to identify on your own, and noticing the moments you do want to ask, and you don't, and starting to see, like, why didn't I just without judgment again, and just this curiosity, like, what was I afraid of in that moment? Because sometimes it's, you know, I mean, usually in vulnerability, it's like a fear of rejection, we're afraid that the thing that we want to do is going to be rejected, the idea that we have might be yucked, that we are going to feel ostracized, that it's going to create distance between our partner and ourselves, that they're not going to like us that they're going to think we're dirty or wrong for asking. And so when you start to identify those, then you really can see the holes that need to be met, and the healing, and the safety that you need to create around those beliefs or those fears that you've identified. And I also like to just make it, instead of just being like, I'm going to just say what I want, you can also bring in a collaborative conversation. And I would recommend because we're already vulnerable, and we're naked, and we're doing it, you know, so maybe not during, but another time, like, hey, like, and just be honest, like, this makes me a little nervous. But like, I'd love to have a conversation about sex, like, when would be a good time? Or I want to just, you know, I'm thinking more about this, like, as we continue into this next chapter of our life, and then having a kind of conversation where you're like, you know, ask, ask both of you, like, what is something you've always wanted to try, you know, or what is something

you've always fantasized about, like, and be clear, because it's also might be hard for you to hear something that your partner is bringing up. And so allowing like both of it, like, this is safe, but we can just bring like one thing up, or one thing that we've thought about.

Danielle Savory 46:10

And that can start to just kind of get the ball rolling. But I think more important than anything is like, how can I create safety with myself? How can I create a strategy? Like if your fear is like, they're gonna say blah, blah, blah, like, create a strategy ahead of time of how you're going to meet yourself and be on your own side, no matter what. That for me has helped so much with these kind of conversations is because you want to just like, have them respond great, right? Of course, we all do, but we don't know. And so that's what vulnerability is, you don't know. And so really, like having a strategy, how am I going to create safety ahead of time, creating safety in the conversation, and then a strategy for afterwards, how will you what are you going to say to yourself? Not like, See, I told you, you shouldn't have said that. Now you're abandoning you again, right? That's why I think that this is such a practice of like true self intimacy. Because not only are you being vulnerable with somebody else, you're being vulnerable and honest with yourself, but you have to have that back end part of like, I am going to be there for you no matter what.

Sara Bybee Fisk 47:17

I love that. And I'll just put in a plug, my never-ending crusade to have women check their hormones and see if HRT hormone replacement therapy is something you also have to have the hormonal support to be able to enjoy and explore. And I think again, you know, kind of circling back to programming, we have such stories about how our sexuality is supposed to just kind of wane and go away as we get older. But I know so many women in perimenopause and menopause are having the best sex of their lives, because they have created this kind of not just safety structure, and vulnerability structure, but they also are getting the health support that they need. And that's something you talked about with your doctor, right? To be able to really enjoy pleasure well into, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s. And God, that's what I want.

Danielle Savory 48:18

Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to say this caveat because I hear, you know, from being out there, it's like all of us naturally, this isn't judgment on anybody, want a quick fix. And from working with so many clients going through perimenopause and menopause and witnessing their journey with pleasure, the hormones, knowing like that they can help,

right, but like, that doesn't cure your programming. Like, right? Yeah. And so that like, this is like one piece of the puzzle. Because if you've never brought up to the surface, why am I resisting pleasure? If you've never brought up to the surface, like why am I not feeling connection with my husband? Why you don't feel safe being vulnerable? Why you've never explored your own desires? I don't care how much HRT you do, you're still going to come up short. And that is something that's not being said in this hormone conversation that I really want to make an important point of because I've seen so many women hoping like this is it, this is going to fix my libido and not that it can't make a difference. It can I have like experienced it on my own. But I've also done a lot of like this work where it was like, it wasn't bad before. Like that's the thing is we're like, Yeah, I want that it must be my hormones. But if you look even before you are in perimenopause, like, you probably weren't exploring pleasure or exploring your desires, or even what you knew ahead of time hormones doesn't do that. And I see so many women really, like, like doubling down on the belief, I am broken because now they've gone to the hormone replacement therapy and things still aren't shifting the way that they want. And that's because there's this subconscious stuff, there's our nervous system work, there's communication that needs to happen with yourself and your partner still in order to actually pursue pleasure.

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:11

That is such a great point. Thank you for making that. Hormones will not do that work for you.

Danielle Savory 50:16

Yes. They're great. They can really help in so many things. I am 100% with you. Every single woman should go and take a look at this. It's not the only thing. Diet isn't the only thing to feel healthy and fit. There's so many other elements.

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:33

I love this conversation. Is there anything that you haven't gotten to say that you really wanted to make sure you put into words? I mean, I know we could talk for another six hours.

Danielle Savory 50:45

The only thing that I think that I just want to come back to that we briefly mentioned and just kind of like a takeaway is the thing that you're going to see in this show over and

over and over is the struggle for her to be able to orgasm with somebody else versus just with herself, right? And I just want to like normalize it in the way that like, if that's you, and that's what you're experiencing, like, you're not broken again, like coming back to like, that's totally understandable, and it's okay. And it is because we have created enough safety for ourselves to explore our pleasure and our desire. And we don't have to be as vulnerable when it's just with ourselves, where that piece of vulnerability and intimacy does come into play with another person. And so if that is you, and you're listening to this, like, welcome to the club totally normal. And this is where we get to, you know, have the opportunity to kind of move into the more challenging side of things sometimes, which is being vulnerable and moving through that discomfort and creating the safety of that vulnerability.

Sara Bybee Fisk 51:57

Thank you, Danielle. That was right on. I'm so grateful for you and for the conversations we have had that have been really important for me. If people want to find you, find out more about your work and what you do, where should they go?

Danielle Savory 52:11

Yeah, you can go to my website daniellesavory.com. I'm on instagram at danielle.savory. I'm trying to start on TikTok. I don't even know my handle. You can probably just put in my name and you'll recognize me. And then other than that, even though I'm not currently recording new episodes, it's my pleasure is a 200 episode library of like, pure knowledge about all of this stuff when it comes to sexuality pleasure. And so many of our obstacles.

Sara Bybee Fisk 52:44
Thanks again. Love you, friend. You too.

Danielle Savory 52:47 Thanks for having me.

Episode 114 - Being Bullied and Becoming a People Pleaser

Many women who struggle with people-pleasing often blame themselves, but these habits are usually rooted in deeper issues that are beyond our control. There can be various underlying causes, but in this episode, I share how my personal experiences with bullying have influenced my people-pleasing tendencies. If recalling your own experiences of being bullied brings up strong emotions--it’s okay to skip this episode if it feels too tender. But if you’re ready, I invite you to explore how these early wounds may have influenced your people-pleasing—and how healing starts with self-compassion, not self-criticism. Here’s what I cover:

• An overview of the four nervous system responses—fight, flight, freeze, and fawn

• A deep dive into the “fawn” nervous system response and how it connects bullying to people-pleasing

• How bullying-related shame impacts our sense of worthiness

• A visualization exercise that uses arts work to help you heal your inner child

• Why being attuned to others’ needs might actually be a trauma response

• A compassionate question to ask yourself that will reveal the beliefs you formed about safety and belonging

Dr. Ramani Clip: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DHL5jFLMbE2/?hl=en 

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Transcript

00:51

This episode, I started thinking about it a little while ago. And as they've been remembering the instances of bullying that I wanted to talk about, and how they relate to my becoming a people pleaser, and maybe if you were bullied, how that made you a people pleaser, it's just kind of laying it all out in one space is making me realize how often it happened to me.

01:26

And if you're thinking about when you were bullied, and there is some intense emotion or feeling coming up, I am right there with you. And so I just want to say at the outset here, I'm going to be describing the instances of bullying that happened to me.

01:47

And I don't want it to be activating for you in any way that doesn't feel good. And so if that starts to happen, just skip this episode, right? There's lots of different ways that we can learn about how our people pleasing habits

02:00

were formed and if this one just feels like too much, I get it because as I started to write everything out, it's been so long since I kind of looked at it all together, I had to take a few minutes for myself as well.

02:13

So with that, I wanted to talk about this because even though our years when bullying might typically happen, you know the playground or the halls of a high school are behind us, there are still some fundamental things that we learn during those formative years about security and relationships and being supported that continues to affect us today.

02:42

I was bullied in third grade by a random girl who was just mean, I had to ride the bus with her and I was just, terrified. She would just stalk me from the time we left, you know, the safety of the classroom, getting in the bus line, she would come up behind me and kind of push me, grab my backpack and kind of rattle it.

03:01

She was, I remember thinking she was huge, right? And that may or may not have been factually correct, but just the terror that I felt every single day after school. And when I talked to my mom about it, she just said, you know, just sit somewhere else, just don't interact with her.

03:19

And so I'm not mad at my mom at all. She had a lot going on, but it was the total lack of safety that I felt from the time. I mean, my stomach started to hurt around lunchtime, just knowing that the school day was going to end soon.

03:37

So maybe that's familiar to some of you. And then in sixth grade, there were two boys who just relentlessly made fun of me because I was smart. And because I enjoyed being smart, because I liked answering questions, and they would write words on my papers, they would, you know, snicker and sneer.

03:58

And I don't fully know if all of it was as malicious. I don't know. All I know is that I felt like I had to hide. And I think that's that's the thing that we all grapple with is, was it malicious? Was it designed to hurt?

04:15

It actually doesn't matter. Because the effect it had on me was hide. Don't show how smart you are. Don't speak up. Don't answer questions. Don't know things. Because if you do, there's a target on your back.

04:29

And so, you know, junior high, relatively fine. I switched schools and went to a bigger school. But then by high school, there were three different periods of bullying. And one

was pretty intense. The first was by some girls who made fun of the way I dressed, made fun of, you know, my hair.

04:50

and especially made fun of my religious beliefs. And they like to kind of corner me and ask me questions about my religious beliefs that were designed to embarrass me or make me feel like they were stupid.

05:01

They brought a book to school that kind of outlined why Mormonism was not Christianity. And at the time, I didn't have any frame of reference for what they were doing other than they hated me, right?

05:16

And they were trying to tear me down. And so I learned to just kind of not fight back, to not to just kind of take it, and then it would be over. The next was, there was a girl in one of my classes who wrote me a love letter.

05:32

And I was very, I was shocked, I was embarrassed. I didn't, at the time, you know, my sophomore self, didn't know how to respond with any kind of graciousness or grace. And actually there were two people who got the letter.

05:46

Some kids took the letter and they read it. And then they started calling me names associated with being gay that I'm not gonna repeat here. And I just didn't know what to do with that. So I would just try to defend myself, try to say, no, I'm not.

06:02

And then just kind of fold and take it. I just didn't have the skills to respond with any kind of confidence, with any kind of, you know, grounded connection to who I was and what I

believed. And I certainly at the time, I didn't have the space to even be, you know, concerned about this other girl.

06:24

It was really all about just how I was gonna get through this intense period of bullying that I was so ashamed of and so embarrassed about. And so I just shut down and I would just kind of smile and try to wait it out.

06:39

And the last incidents, which was the most intense, was by a group of girls on my high school volleyball team. And their boyfriends who in a small town, you know, were all on the football team and they would surround me at school and say things to me.

06:56

They would send me threatening messages. They alienated the few friends that I had at the time. And it was a really, really intense period of just wishing that I could crawl into a hole and not come out.

07:12

And so if your bullying was alike, if it was worse, if it was, you know, similar or different, it actually doesn't really matter. I offer those examples just for some context because I think what my brain did at the time was trying to minimize it, trying to make it like not seem like the big deal that it was.

07:36

But as I look now at the kind of the whole landscape of my past behavior, I learned to fawn as a response to being bullied. Fawning is one of the nervous system responses, F-A-W-N, that happens when you don't feel safe and you are searching for any possible way to just kind of tamp down the danger on a situation.

08:09

When you're bullied, your brain receives all of these powerful messages that you are not safe. And it's not just your brain that understands it intellectually. Like when I have a group of football players, you know, surrounding me and threatening me, obviously, my brain understands this is not a safe situation.

08:30

But your body experiences that on a deep level. And it kind of it becomes embedded in your body. It's a full body experience that changes how your nervous system reacts. And your nervous system gets rewired, and that fawn response becomes your default.

08:56

You develop hypervigilance, kind of constantly scanning the environment for threats. You learn to read the room really, really well. You anticipate other people's needs before they're even expressed, because if you can fawn, if you can please, then that stops things from even becoming a threat.

09:14

And so on the surface, you're smiling, you look very helpful, very nice, but inside there's nervousness and anxiety, and there's a constant watching for what could go wrong. The other thing that happens is that your system becomes full of shame, right?

09:35

Because there's the sense of, I am bad. I am bad that this is happening to me, or they are doing this to me because I am bad, or I am bad because I can't stand up to this. I am bad because I can't get the support that I need around this.

09:53

And something about that shame, it's different for everyone. For me, it was the shame that it was happening to me and that I couldn't get support around it. I did talk about it with some adults in my life, and I think they, in their very well-meaning way, told me to find different friends, told me to just keep to myself for a little bit, told me that if I didn't go to school during that intense time of high school bullying,

10:19

that it would be seen as weak, that I, you know, not show up. And I think that was their very well-meaning way of trying to help me, but it didn't give me any support. And there is something in for me about, like, I am not worthy of being supported.

10:36

I'm not worthy of getting the help that I need to deal with this threat that feels so much bigger than I am. I didn't feel like I had the resources or the support skills to be able to protect myself or help myself.

10:52

And even though I physically got through it, that sense of shame around not being deserving of support, I'm sure it makes sense to you that what that grows up into is someone who's constantly giving support but doesn't feel worthy to ask for the same type of support that they need.

11:11

Another thing that happens when you're bullied when you're young is that your identity forms around self protection. You learn to make yourself smaller, you learn to make yourself less noticeable, you kind of build yourself around what doesn't trigger other people to be mean to you or to attack you, rather than what feels really authentic to you.

11:35

You can't have authenticity without safety. And so so many of the women that I talked to and so much of my own experience was formed around being small and being acceptable, not making anyone mad. Think for just a minute for you how often I don't wanna make them mad is a thought that you have.

12:02

Maybe it's connected to some of these same types of things happening to you when you were younger. The next thing that happens when you experience bullying as a child and in adolescence is that your relationship with boundaries gets really, really complicated.

12:21

Either you don't believe you deserve them and you don't know how to have them because boundaries can piss other people off saying don't do that to me, you can't talk to me feels like it's just escalating the situation.

12:35

So that's possibly one thing that happens. Or you build walls so thick that no one can get close to hurt you. That's more of the route that I went. I tried to be so impenetrable to anyone else's opinions of me, their words, that I would just convince myself it didn't matter.

12:59

This just actually came back to me. I remember standing in a group of women and I am now in my late 20s, I remember I have a couple kids, so 29-ish and there was a group of women in my church congregation that had all moved to Texas where I lived from the same place in Utah.

13:19

Their husbands all worked for the same oil company and one of the women was passing out invitations to her birthday party and she passed them out to everyone in the circle but me. And it was done in a way that I could tell was meant to exclude me and I armored up, said you know what, fuck her.

13:37

I don't care, I didn't say fuck her because I didn't swear at the time. But I was like, I don't care, you know, who cares about her and her stupid birthday party. But inside I was so hurt. So, the boundaries piece can get tricky.

13:52

You don't have them, you don't believe you deserve them, or you go to the other extreme where your boundaries or your walls are so thick in an attempt to just not be

hurt by anyone again. Another thing that happens when you're bullied is that oftentimes the inner critic parts that we all have take on the voice of our bullies.

14:14

So, long after the actual bullying stops, the person is long gone from our lives, we continue to do the work that they did, critiquing and doubting and judging and questioning our value and our worth, telling ourselves that we're too much, that we should be different or not enough.

14:35

And it is so often that when I'm working with women on that particular critic part, they have memories of being bullied. by other kids their age or by other adults. Because bullying doesn't just happen kid to kid.

14:53

Oftentimes the perpetrators are adults who are dealing with their own issues who should know better who bully kids. And I think the most heartbreaking part of all of this is that most of us don't fully appreciate, especially because we were never taught to, right?

15:12

This whole kind of conversation around trauma and trauma responses and nervous system regulation really has only come into like mainstream conversation in the last what maybe five years or so. Maybe you know 10 if you're in therapy circles or we're doing therapy which you know God knows most of us weren't doing therapy you know 15 and 10 and 20 years ago.

15:40

So it just rather than understand that what happened for us was a trauma response. We think it's our personality. There's something wrong with me. I'm just a people pleaser or I'm just anxious or I'm just really good at reading people, right?

15:59

I'm just really good at knowing what other people need when the whole time it's a brilliant trauma response bonding that has just been part of the wallpaper of our lives for so long that we just think it's us.

16:18

And we tend to slap on another layer of shame and guilt for being a people pleaser or being anxious or being someone who fawns rather than really appreciating that it wasn't a choice. Those were survival adaptations that worked brilliantly to keep us safe in unsafe conditions.

16:46

When I was surrounded by five or six football players who were threatening to beat me up, fighting back wasn't a great option in that moment. And so, fawning and smiling and trying to kind of joke about it to get out of the situation really was my best option.

17:08

But for a long time, I think I just saw myself as weak or as overly nice, as overly accommodating, and I know for sure that I keep more judgment and criticism on myself for doing that rather than recognizing that it was a survival mechanism that I wasn't fully in control of, which I'm going to explain more about that in a second, that my nervous system employed to keep me safe.

17:41

And so, I want to explore further, the connection between bullying and people pleasing, because I want you to go easy on yourself. I talk with so many women who have so much shame and judgment and self-doubt and self-criticism for themselves, without fully appreciating that the ways in which they were bullied shaped their view of being safe and what they had to do to be safe.

18:08

And so the journey out of this isn't about just getting over it. It's not about being harder on yourself, so that you stop those patterns of people pleasing. It's about recognizing how these experiences really shaped us, honoring the ways that we protected ourselves,

and then gently, with compassion, learning new ways to exist, or for our systems, our nervous systems to exist that aren't organized around fear.

18:43

Because when you are bullied, so much of your orientation in the world is about being safe because of the thing that could happen. Your whole system gets organized around eliminating danger and about protecting you from fear.

19:00

So really quickly, I'm going to do a whole other episode that dives into each of these nervous system responses with more depth, but I want you to understand them for the sake of our discussion today.

19:11

Your nervous system responses are fight, light, freeze, and fawn. I've already talked a little bit about that. So your nervous system takes the wheel in situations of threat. And what I mean by that, it's literal.

19:29

When something is triggered in you, and suddenly, you're not quite yourself, and you are not fully in charge, that is your nervous system taking over your brain and body and activating really ancient survival programming.

19:44

that kept our ancestors alive and has kept us alive long before we really have the words to describe what was happening and thankfully today we do. So these four fundamental responses I just want to give you a brief overview of each one because whether it's you know the saber-toothed tiger on the savannah of long ago or a kid in the hall or your mother-in-law's passive aggressive comment at Thanksgiving dinner your nervous system can activate in these different responses without you even making a conscious choice and that's really really important to remember.

20:21

So flight. Flight is all about escape. Your body floods with energy designed to help you get away from danger as quickly as possible. So in primitive times this meant literally running right literally running away and in modern life it might look like running but it also might look like constantly staying busy to avoid uncomfortable feelings.

20:44

procrastinating on difficult conversations or anything where conflict might come up, changing the subject when things get emotionally intense, physically leaving rooms during conflict, or excessively planning and preparing to prevent any possible problem.

21:03

That's what flight looks like. So that anxious energy, the racing thoughts, the inability to kind of settle down, that is flight's response in action telling you we need to get out of here, right? We need to leave.

21:17

We need to get out of here. Fight is the defender. Fight mobilizes your body's resources for confrontation. It's your system's way of saying, I am going to face this threat head on. It's not always physical aggression.

21:32

It can be. But fight responses in our day look like arguing and debating even minor points, possibly becoming disproportionately angry about small frustrations. There's a lot of that fighting energy in your system.

21:50

And so it just kind of erupts here and there about something that doesn't really deserve that kind of response. Getting defensive when receiving feedback, being quick to criticize others, feeling a surge of irritability when you're vulnerable, the heat in your chest, the tightness of your jaw, the way your hands clench or your muscles clench.

22:14

And that is fight saying, you know, I'm going to stand my ground. I'm going to stay here and I'm going to fight. Freeze happens when flight and fight aren't viable options. It's your system's way of literally just playing dead or becoming invisible, hoping that the threat will go away.

22:35

In our modern lives, a lot of us live in something called a functional freeze. Right. We've just been taking flight. and fighting for so long and it hasn't been working that we get in a freezy state that looks like a brain fog during stressful situations that just kind of comes over us, feeling numb or disconnected from our bodies, a deer in the headlight sensation when you're put on the spot and you lose your words and you can't think of anything,

23:06

or procrastination that feels more like paralysis than the flight procrastination that I just described. Like you just can't make yourself move. It's really difficult to make decisions, even simple ones.

23:21

It's more of an empty-headed feeling, the sense that we're kind of out of body and that's freeze. And freeze is trying to help us be still and be small so that the danger will not see me and we'll move on.

23:38

So Fawn is the people pleaser and it's... least talked about, but perhaps most familiar response that I notice in myself and in the people that I talk to, especially women. It is about appeasing the threat by being whatever it will take to make the other person calm or be happy.

24:04

So it looks like automatically agreeing with others, even when you don't, because you don't want disagreement to activate them at all. It's over apologizing when you haven't

done anything wrong. It is prioritizing everyone else's comfort over yourself, because if they're comfortable, then they're happy, then I get to be safe.

24:29

It's a chameleon like adaptation to whatever environment you are in. I did this a lot with different, I just wanted friends. I wanted a friend group to be safe in, and so I could chameleon to the different high school groups trying to get accepted by them.

24:48

And it went on into adulthood with different friend groups that I tried to make as an adult. Fawning looks like a real difficulty identifying who you are, your wants, your needs, your opinions, because you are so hypervigilantly watching the needs of everyone else that there just isn't any leftover time and energy for you to know who you are.

25:14

It's one of the most common things that the women I talk to say like, I don't even know who I am. That's because of fawning. It's an ability to do this kind of instant mental calculation of what does this person want from me?

25:32

How can I give it to them and that reflexive smile? It is so instant that you go into nice mode and you are able to get other people what they want, you're able to make them happy and you're smiling on the outside, but inside there's a really high degree of hypervigilance, nervousness and anxiety that it's just kind of always below the surface.

26:01

And again, what I want you to really remember is that these are not conscious choices. They are lightning fast, nervous system reactions that happen before your brain even registers and can really do the math of what is going on.

26:19

Because if everything could slow down, right, in that moment, your brain might have a chance to do the calculation like, oh, I'm actually safe here, right? As an adult, when that woman was handing out party invitations to everybody but me.

26:36

And I felt the surge of discomfort and energy in my body that told me, you're not safe, you're not safe, you're not safe. The problem is the nervous system just takes over and does that calculation for me.

26:49

And we all have our go to responses. But most of us cycle through several just depending on the situation. There is no good or bad nervous system response. They just are. And they have kept our species alive for millennia.

27:10

And so they become problematic when they're chronically activated in situations that are not actually threatening our survival. And that's the thing that I want you to hear. It's only a problem, because your nervous system thinks you are in a situation of actual threat.

27:33

And you're not. And so that's how we grow up to become these chronic people pleasers, always fawning, fawning, fawning, fawning, because we're trying to eliminate any and all threats without even stopping to think, is this actually a threat?

27:52

Or is this actually a threat that I can't handle? And another way that this fawn response shows up over time, I heard this on a podcast, their name is Dr. Ramani. And she had a guest who said that one of the hallmarks of trauma is trying to get a difficult person to be good to you, trying to get difficult people to treat us well.

28:16

And if you think about how often when we are bullied, so many of us try to figure out how can I get this person to like me? How can I get them to be kind to me? How can I get them to stop bullying me?

28:29

That is where the fawn response shows up a lot. So much of the path to healing isn't eliminating these responses. We can't, they're hardwired. But about creating enough nervous system regulation and safety where we are able to be with whatever response our nervous system throws out in a loving, calm, kind, rounded, compassionate way so that we can begin to slow down the response and feel more safety.

29:08

So again, it's not about never having another fawn attack, or flight, or fight attack, but it's just about getting enough regulation in the nervous system by practicing, calming yourself, being with yourself in a loving, present way, so that the space between the trigger and the response gets a little bigger, and you're able to have a choice.

29:33

rather than just an automatic response. It's not weakness. It's not the character flaw. This is your magnificent nervous system doing exactly what it was designed to do to keep you alive. And so I really hope that as we look at the ways in which bullying brought some of these responses online for us, we can do so with love.

30:01

We can do so with acknowledging of the sadness and grief that is inherent in some of these situations where we didn't have the support that we so desperately needed and wanted. And that we did our best to get by.

30:18

And that with no one to explain it to us, we grew up doing the best we could, which often is just living in these responses, particularly fawning over and over and over, just trying to stay safe. I also want to say that there is really a piece of this that is very gendered.

30:44

The good girl rules all reinforce fawning as a nervous system response, the nice girl, right? Messages about being kind and accommodating. The perfect child, the perfect wife, the good wife, the good daughter, the good friend, right?

31:02

There are so many messages that are given to humans who are socialized as women, girls in particular, about fawning as being good that it can be very confusing to untie the fawn response that doesn't feel good from the way that we also all want to be rewarded and we want to belong, we want to have connection.

31:28

And so there is absolutely a piece of this that is reinforced by social and cultural messages that are people pleasing, which started out as a response to trauma is actually good. And that's why so many of us continue in it as well.

31:44

So I've talked a little bit about some of the shifts that I think are really helpful to move from having a fond response that's just really automatic to having more choice in your response. And the first is to recognize that being bullied plays a significant role in the shaping of that response.

32:08

Number two, to recognize that that response is not your fault. It's chosen for you automatically by your nervous system that is just trying to keep you safe. And number three, to recognize where you are blaming and shaming yourself for that response.

32:23

Number four, to recognize the all the good girl rules that kind of get layered in there and that reinforce that behavior rather than allowing you to question it. And there's some others that I want to mention too.

32:36

So much of the work that we have to do as adults who are women who are people pleasers is to reconnect with what we really want and desire. So much of the outflow of that fond energy is taking care of everyone else.

32:57

So spending time learning to reconnect, feeling valid in our needs, asking for the support that we need, that we didn't get during those moments when we were bullied and other moments when we felt like we were really alone in the world, not being seen, not being listened to, not being understood, connecting with that and learning to ask.

33:23

That's a very powerful way to make that journey into more choice. Secondly, doing the work with your nervous system regulation regularly to help everything slow down, right? To make that nervous system response less automatic so that you have the opportunity to differentiate between a real threat and a perceived threat.

33:51

Now, perceived threat doesn't mean it's not a threat. It just means it's a threat where you have some skills or some resources to handle. Mother-in-laws comment at the Thanksgiving table. It might feel threatening, but you might have some skills there.

34:06

And if you don't, that's the time to get them, to learn how to go into conflict in a way that feels safe for you. Now, I'm talking about some really big things here. And so if you're listening and saying, you're like, okay, Sarah, that's great.

34:23

But going into conflict in a way that I feel good about, that just sounds bonkers. I get it. I get it. But what I can tell you is it is possible, especially if you are willing to learn some skills and practice in less threatening situations first.

34:44

Practice with circumstances that don't feel if mother-in-law at the Thanksgiving table feels super threatening, that's not where you start to differentiate between real and perceived threat or slow things down and regulate your nervous system and bring your skills and resources online.

35:00

You start somewhere smaller that feels safer. You also join other communities of people who are doing the same work. You listen and read to other women who are doing this work because building supportive relationships.

35:18

that honor where you are and that show you all the different places where we are on this path of learning how to eliminate our fawning response. It is so powerful. I have learned so much from listening to the voices of other women doing the same work and we live in a time when there are more of them than ever.

35:39

We heal in communities in such a beautiful, beautiful way. It's the reason that I started Stop People Pleasing when women can hear the struggles and the celebrations of other women and find themselves there and think, oh my gosh, I'm totally normal.

35:55

This is just such a normal, of course this is happening for me. It's happening for all of us. There is just such a wonderful settling into a new level of self honoring because you know what we're all worried about is there's something extra special super broken about just me, but when I hear it reflected back to me in the stories of other people and other women especially, it is such a beautiful experience.

36:22

So if there have been things from this episode that really resonate with you, I'm so glad. I would love to hear about them. I love getting VMs. I love getting messages from people who listen to this episode where they identify where they want me to do maybe a little

more explaining something that wasn't clear to them, but here's what I want to leave you with.

36:43

I want to leave you with a question to ask yourself. If you were bullied, what did it teach you about what you needed to do or be to stay safe? And if you can ask yourself that question with so much compassion and allow inner parts of you to speak up and show you memories, that's what's happened for me as I've prepared this episode.

37:11

I've remembered things that I haven't thought about in literally decades as I have asked myself, what's the connection for me between being bullied and what I needed to do to stay safe? There is information for you in your body.

37:32

And then the last thing I want to do, I want to take you through a visualization that is something that I have done with myself. Because one of the questions that I get asked a lot is, okay, great, now I've identified, you know, this wound that happened for me in third grade when I was sitting on the bus just petrified about which bus seat to pick which one was the safest where she wouldn't bother me.

37:58

And okay, great, I've identified it, but it's already passed. Like how do I go back and fix something or heal something that I can't go back and relive that moment. And what I want to tell you is there's a magic way that we actually can.

38:13

It's through the power of our imagination and arts work. Arts work essentially says that we can go back and support the smaller parts of us, our inner children, if that feels like accessible language to you, that we're without support and resources with our wise, loving adult selves who can be curious and who can be calm and compassion and bring those resources to those situations.

38:49

And a lot of times we can do it in a visualization. So what I have done is I close my eyes and I find a place on my body. Usually I just go for my chest where I place my hands, I soften my gaze or close my eyes and I can actually remember that bus.

39:11

And I see myself walking out to the line and I see the girl coming up behind me. And then I imagine that me as an adult could go up and put my arm around little third grade me and that my presence there helps her.

39:31

It makes her brave. It gives her support. I see us now kind of walking up the steps of the bus. You know, those vinyl plastic seats were sliding into one and I let her get in first and I sit on the outside.

39:48

Then I sit with her. And it's not that the bullying doesn't happen. It's that I'm there to explain to her, this is not your fault. You are not in trouble. You are not doing anything wrong. There is something in this girl that is hurting, that is all about her.

40:12

This is not your fault. You did nothing wrong. I am. right here with you. And I just let her tell me that she is afraid. And I say, I'm right here with you. If we are going to feel afraid, we're going to feel it together.

40:31

And I sit with her. And we both are there. And she's feeling afraid. And I am sitting with her until it's time for us to get off the bus and walk down the steps. The power of that type of a visualization isn't to make it go away.

40:51

It's to give those unsupported parts of you the little us that were alone in those huge moments of fear of error, of embarrassment of shame, it's to give them company, support, presence in those feelings.

41:13

It's not about making those feelings go away. And as I have done that work with little versions of me, third grade me, sixth grade me, even high school me, it is profound how tender I feel toward those versions of me where I once really only felt shame and embarrassment and like I was never going to tell anybody that that happened to me because it was just, you know, so embarrassing.

41:36

And that is something that is available to you too. If you have any questions about how to do this, and you want to book a call with me, I would love for you to use the link that is in the show notes.

41:47

I will tell you about how we can work together to do some of these things together. And I will take you through your own visualization that can help you heal some of these things. Because again, it's not about pretending that those things never happened.

42:04

It's about understanding that we were always just trying to be safe, that that's how our nervous system responded to keep us safe. But that now as adults, we have access to a different level of safety and connection that we can give ourselves.

42:23

Some of us are being even bullied as adults in the workplace in our marriages in different friend relationship. If that is still happening, I would love to talk with you about it. Because you deserve to feel safe.

42:36

You deserve to feel connected. You deserve to be seen and listened to. And if there's anything I can do to help that, I would love to. Thanks for listening.

Episode 113 - The Intimacy Triangle with Andrea Parks

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You may remember my conversation with therapist Andrea Parks about the drama triangle and how we can shift out of harmful roles in our relationships. But once we escape the drama, how do we build the deep, connected relationships we crave? In this episode, Andrea introduces the intimacy triangle and we dive into how authenticity, openness, and responsiveness create true closeness. Here's what we cover:

• The role that vulnerability plays in intimate relationships

• How to strengthen the three components necessary for intimacy in your relationships

• Why it’s often difficult to develop the three components of intimacy in high-demand religions or family systems

• Examples of how openness increases intimacy in all relationships

• Why responsiveness is often transactional or conditional in an unhealthy system

I can’t wait for you to listen.

By training and profession Andrea is a therapist and facilitator. She is in private practice and the owner of Bloom Healing. She has a degree in Child Development and a Masters degree in Counseling psychology. She has training and experience in psychodrama, attachment, somatic bodywork, developmental trauma, grief and life transitions. Alongside her work as a trauma therapist she specializes in group therapy and loves creating spaces where individuals with diverse backgrounds can come together in community and heal. By choice and good fortune she is the mother to three children and honored to be partnered with Shawn, her closest friend and companion in life. In her free time she is a seeker of poetry, wild things, beauty and friendship.

Find Andrea here:

http://bloomhealingaz.com/

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

01:00

We're about to have one of my favorite types of conversations because we said we'll see and hit record. Andrea Parks is one of my dearest and closest friends. She is a therapist and works specifically with people who come from trauma. I'm going to let her introduce more about that, but I have learned more from her about intimacy and vulnerability and the role that conflict plays in that than I think almost anyone else generally and in our friendship, it has been such an incredible relationship for me. I wanted her to talk about her work with intimacy because I get so many questions and comments and praise for the podcast episode we did about the Drama Triangle, which is episode number 83. If you want to go back and listen to that one, do you think they should listen to that one first? Will I give them some context for this one? What do you think, Andrea?

01:51
I don't think you have to, but I definitely think this builds upon that, so it would be useful.

01:56

So go back and listen to that one first, if you haven't, because you need to know about it anyway. Andrea, what do you want people to know about you?

02:04

well, that I am a helper, that I mostly work with all genders in my practice, but I would say primarily women and people who are coming out of high demand religion or out of systems of like conditional systems. So family systems where there's a lot of low nurturance, family systems where, and if I'm being honest, I think that's maybe a lot of us. Yeah. People who are listening to a people pleaser podcast may have some sort of connection to some of these, because I think they all kind of come in a cluster, but folks that are wanting to do better than what they had wanting to give their kids maybe more than what they had and don't have an idea of how to do it. So that's kind of like where this whole idea that we're going to talk about today started is when I first started working with clients really early on and this particular group of clients, it was over and over and over again. We were spending a lot of our sessions talking about relationships and relationships are like the grist for the mill of therapy. It's where it like reveals all of your trauma. It's not necessarily always the source of your pain, but it reveals all the places inside of you that need healing. So we would spend a lot of time talking about relationships and we would spend a lot of time talking about this idea of the drama triangle, these roles that we play. They're like suits that you're assigned as a little child to make it work in your family and you might be the persecutor or the rescuer or the victim,

but they're all kind of the same. It's a lack of connection, a forced role that I'm in to feel safe and no progress, no connection can happen in that while we're in that role. So, you know, we talked about this in the last episode, we kind of have this way to get out these new kind of ways of showing up that help you heal the drama triangle. And I've done that. I mean, I've been in private practice for close to 15 years and I've done that work with clients for a lot of years. And then I realized I wanted to have another model that would teach how you then after you've healed the drama triangle and you've kind of stepped out of these roles and you're like this naked little new baby who doesn't really know how to now build what you want to have, which is intimacy. That's where this came from. And I think I've been teaching this for years, but I wanted to put it together in a similar format so it's easier to remember. And it's a model I think that's really helpful for me. I said this in the last episode that whenever you bump up in a relationship where things aren't working very well, I like to ask myself which leg of this am I leaning too heavily on? Am I leaning too heavily on accountability? Am I leaning too heavily on compassion? Am I leaning too heavily on boundaries? And usually if something's not working in your relationship, you're probably leaning too heavily on one. And so this I use as a similar way. Like if you're looking at relationships, you could kind of ask yourself, does this relationship have these three components? So let's dive in.

05:04 Yeah.

05:05

Okay, so the first thing you should probably know is that all three of the components are different and Brené Brown would love this as I was working on it over the last little bit, I realized that vulnerability is in every single one of them. So it's not a single corner of this intimacy triangle, it's like the breath that moves through the entire thing. So each section as we talk about it, we'll kind of talk about how vulnerability is a part of it. So first, I think unlike the drama triangle where you could kind of start at any given point, I think this one works better if you kind of start at one point and you build on it. So I'm going to kind of teach it that way. But the three components that I found necessary for intimacy are authenticity. And this is like how I show you who I truly am. Openness, this is how I stay open to you and open while I'm being authentic. And we can talk about that a little bit more. But a lot of times when we're learning how to be authentic, we're like authentic and then really armored, like I'm going to show you who I am, but don't you dare come at me, I'm going to boom, boom, boom, right? Like it's this really protective stance. So it's learning how to stay open. And then the last one is responsive. So I'm responsive to you and I'm also still responsive to me. So it's this flow that happens. And I think it's important to know and we can kind of talk about this as we go through it, that those are three conditions that are usually not possible in high demand situations like a high

demand religion, a community or, you know, a codependent family system. So, you know, high demand religion often blocks intimacy both with ourselves and with others. So you replace intimacy with performance. And you replace openness with certitude and you replace responsiveness with control. I could speak for myself plenty of times in my relationship with my children. I've done those exact things, replace responsiveness with control, replaced openness with certitude. No, I'm sure this is the way it's supposed to go and replaced authenticity with performance. Now, now you're fine. Everything's fine and not really being fully in it.

07:17

makes sense. It does. It does. And I think about the ways that certitude feels often like a safer choice. Because you can just go back to the words that someone said about something that established some kind of either factual or mutually agreed upon fact that everybody just repeats over and over again. And how that that just feels way safer than being open in each of these, you know, that the thing that gets replaced feels way safer than being intimate than being open than being authentic.

07:50

That's right. I think that's why vulnerability is just flows through the whole thing, because every stance in this new model requires vulnerability. And if you think about the drama triangle, there's absolutely no vulnerability in that, right? That's all a role. And so this probably, as you're learning this, and as I'm learning it, and still learning it, if you're not feeling a bit uncomfortable, you're probably not doing it. Like it's going to feel a little different because it's not repeating what was handed to us. It's not performing a role that we've, you know, basically been programmed to perform. It's showing up really like me, who I am. Yeah. So do you want me to start with authenticity or where do you want me to start?

08:35

Yeah, just start us with where you think the conversation needs to begin. I think that's great.

08:39

Okay, so the first place I usually start, when you're using this as a model, you could kind of start anywhere if you're just asking questions. Like let's say you're unhappy at your workplace, you're feeling maybe some discomfort there, you could ask yourself, does

this place have an ability for me to be both authentic, open and responsive? You could kind of use it as like a place to grow, but if you're wanting to kind of inhabit it inside of yourself, I always say the first place to start is authenticity, and I think that's the hardest place to start. Most of us have a tremendous amount, most of us who are in this group of folks, who are people pleasers, former codependents and recovery of some way, leaving a high demand religion, we have built a life of masks. And so authenticity is starting to take the masks off. And the vulnerable point in this position is letting yourself be seen, not only seen for who you are, but also seen as being different from the other people in the group, which is a real threat to, you know, belonging inside of those types of closed systems. Belonging is really contingent on being the same. And so if you've never had an experience where that's safe and welcomed and rejoiced, that can be really difficult to show up and be different. So authenticity is I'm showing you who I really am. I'm going to be emotionally honest. So when someone says, how are you? I might actually say, I'm sad. I'm scared. I'm angry. And the big one, the one I noticed I work with the most on, with my clients is the idea of differentiation and individuation. Those seem to be the most difficult and the most vulnerable. Whenever I teach enmeshment to clients, I always use the sentence, I am me and you are you. And that sounds so simple. I am me, you are you. But that is actually really complicated for people because when we're in like a close intimate relationship, it almost feels like it's a threat to the relationship to be different from this person. So I might have different needs. Maybe you have a need for lots of activities today and I have a need for quiet or stillness. Maybe it's, it's just about the temperature of the house, you know, or much more deep, vulnerable needs. But it's also having, I think about right now with our current climate, like being in a family system and having a different political belief. And showing up and being able to be held and seen and respected for that, which is almost impossible, I feel like in most closed systems.

11:16

there's just so much to it. There's different layers of like just basic survival programming of needing a group to survive and thrive of being in groups of people that you have long- term relationships with who might have once been like actively your caregiver as a parent but now you're an adult you don't need the same level of care necessarily but you still have an enmeshed relationship where you don't feel safe to show up as who you are and say I actually have a different opinion about that that can feel really fraught and so if you're listening to this and identifying with it just know that this is this is something really complex that we're talking about that has lots of different layers and the I am me and you are you sounds very simple but there's actually a lot going on there.

12:02

Absolutely. I mean, I think about any of my intimate relationships that I would consider to be a close interrelationship. We have had to come to a point, usually many, but at least

once where there is a really important moment of differentiation, where there's a really important moment. It usually feels, for me, as a people pleaser, as a peacemaker, it feels like I'm going to die. It feels really scary to say, this doesn't work for me, or I'm not going to be in my own integrity if I don't speak up right now and say what I need to say. I was thinking about this this morning, and I was thinking about when my daughter, who's seven, a few years ago, she was asking me about what happens when we die. And how I was given that information as a kid was like, here's what happens. And that's the whole story. Here's what happens. There was no nothing else. But that, what I said to her was, I don't really know for sure. Here's what I think some people say, you know, as these people say this, and these people say this, these people say this, I have no way of knowing for sure. This is what I hope. And then I was like, and what do you think? And that, I think is how it starts with a little child, just giving them opportunities to develop their own idea, and that it could be held. And if she would have said, well, I think when we die, maybe she would have said something really scary, or something that really like, troubled me on, you know, a psychological level, being able to like, hold space, that's where the next part of the triangle comes being open, to like, that she could have a different belief in me or a different idea of things, and that I wouldn't need to correct it or change it or clean it up. Does that make sense?

13:48

It does. I talk a lot with clients about the rules of every group we belong to. Every group has rules. That's how you know who's in and who's out. You are not rewarded for breaking those rules. You are not rewarded for having your own opinion, your own way of doing things. The reward is for conformity. The reward is for agreeing. The reward is for doing the same thing that everybody else is doing, whether it's in an family setting or a social group or a cultural group. It doesn't matter. We know those rules implicitly. Sometimes they're spelled out, sometimes they're not, but we just watch with the brilliant brains and millions of mirror neurons that we've been given that help us pick up on where we get rewarded and where we get punished. For me, that moment of differentiation often feels like, I'm going to lose this relationship if I say this thing. I'm going to be punished with disconnection. I'm going to be punished with being on the margins or even just pushed out. Then when you're in a group that actually does push people out, you see the proof of that in high demand religions. It's very often the case that you're excommunicated or punished publicly or there is some kind of walking back of your privileges within the group. That's not something that your brain is just making up. You see it play out.

15:17

No, you're absolutely right. And I think that's why we probably always should start with the drama triangle, right? Like we have to start with getting ourselves in a strong and

safe enough place. I would not recommend you step into the intimacy triangle with every person you know, and with every system that you know, because they're they're giving you data about if they're open to intimacy. And if they're not open to intimacy, and you go in vulnerably and open, there's a I don't know if there's any way around it, to be honest.

15:50

don't think there is, but I do know that things began to change dramatically for me when I began to at least tell myself the truth. That's it. I had to start by telling myself the truth. This doesn't feel good. This doesn't feel right. This there's something off here. And at least then I could have an authentic connection with me. And I knew what that felt like. And that kind of became the standard with which I could kind of measure and judge other relationships.

16:20

When I'm talking with someone and it's clear, you know, maybe they don't know the exact word for it, but it's clear that they are not in an intimate community or relationship or system. That's usually the first step, as I say, let's start by naming what no longer feels true, just within yourself. Even just acknowledging you got home, you're driving home from family dinner and just an acknowledgement of like, I don't think I was honest about who I was one time there. Yeah. Or also maybe even acknowledging you can see it around you. Like I don't think mom is honest about who she is. So we can just start naming it and then valuing our lived experience over the inherited doctrine. I always say that religion and families are the two places where abuse is called love. And just starting to like, I know you say that is true, for I know you say that is love, but my lived experience is that doesn't feel good, right? Like you're telling me that this is just how our family is and this is how we love each other, but inside I feel disrespected, unseen, unvalued, at risk that if I'm honest, I'm going to lose everything. And then when we have places outside of the system that we can share that with, we start there. So maybe you could share it with a friend, maybe you can share it with a partner, somebody that you could like take the first step of being authentic. Intimacy requires two whole people, not two mirrors, right? So two people. Oh, same.

17:48
about that. Yeah.

17:50

I think oftentimes, and I think I'm going to speak just from my lens. I mostly work with people who are, you know, part of, have been inside Mormonism or outside of Mormonism. Now, I think the idea of you shall become leave your father and mother and be, go from two flesh to one will become one person often ends up looking like we have to be one person. We can't have two identities, two completely different. And so real intimacy means there's two completely different people in the relationship that are connected to one another, not mirrors of one another. Not have to feel need, want the exact same things.

18:32

It's just, it goes against so much of just that early programming that just gets in there first. You know, children learning to take care of parents who can't regulate their own emotions, learning to get love and acceptance by performing and pretending, learning that if I'm going to have a voice here, it has to say the same thing that all the other voices are saying.

18:56 Yeah.

18:57
There's just, there's a lot.

18:59

You know, that sentence, what's good for the goose, isn't good for the gander. Yeah. That guy, I've just heard that a ton as a kid, the goose is thinking for the gander. I think in, in this category of authenticity, we have to have room for the goose and the gander. Like there's got to be room for me to show up and say, this is who I am. This is what I need. Some part of the system has to value it.

19:23

And I think even just about the logistics of family life, I had five small kids. I didn't want a bunch of gooses and ganders. I just want you all to get your shoes on and get in the car, right? And so there's so many ways, and I talk about this a lot, that we are separated from our bodies knowing. Like my youngest child, Micah, I remember like, Micah, come

on, hustle up. And it's like, Mom, I can't go fast. If he was so sincere to this day, he just doesn't have the fast mode that you wish you could reach in there and like flick on and make things happen. But how he didn't fit in that system that I had created of like always kind of rushing to get places and how it required him to disconnect from himself to do what I wanted in a way that just didn't feel good. So little things like that, that pile up and pile up over weeks and months and years of being in the same family, teach you that what you are feeling, nobody wants to hear about, and is probably wrong because what Mom is saying or what the pastor is saying or the Bishop or whoever, whatever person outside of you who holds the authority, that's what we have to be doing.

20:34

And even thinking about that example you gave with Micah, authenticity, I don't think always means that we have to change everything. So even just being able maybe to say, I think today's going to be really hard for you, Micah, because today is one of those days we have to do a whole bunch of things pretty fast. And so I'm going to be aware of the fact that today's probably a hard day for Micah. And then when we get home, I'll make sure you have some extra time to move slow. That's so good. You can't always just custom create life to every single person's needs. It's the goose and the gander have to both be taken into account. But I really think it starts with you learning how to be authentic inside of me. So to know I'm overwhelmed today with all of these kids and all the things I have to do in that and being aware of that and making space for that. The part of the reason you had five kids and part of the reason that you moved at the pace you moved was probably because you came from a disconnected beginning.

21:35

I also heard in that example you just offered about Mike as some of the responsiveness that I think you're talking about. So take us through.

21:44

So not openness, which is the vulnerable point of openness is I am receptive and I'm open to being moved by you. Like I care about you so much you could influence me, you could change me, you could change my mind, my opinions. Another word that I like attached openness when I teach us is presence. I think openness is really about being this like fully present with you. It's such a gift to give someone your attention. So the vulnerable part of this one is about being softened, both the giver and the receiver.I'm going to be vulnerable and soft in my authenticity. I'm going to have this like kind of relational posture. I'm here, I'm listening with all of me. And that also means that I'm going to use the example of my religion just for an just an idea. Let's say you go to your

bishop and you're like, I'm having a really hard time with the fact that women don't have the authority to do something. Openness would look like being able to say that is right. They don't have that. And it makes a lot of sense to me that you would be unhappy about it. And if I'm really going to be honest with you, I don't think I'm super happy about it either. Right? Like it's not this posture of like, I have to go back into the rules, the doctrine, the like, well, that's just the way we know how that goes. So it's the softening that's not threatened by someone else's authenticity and not threatened by someone else revealing their pain or their truth.

23:16

and remind me again, what's the opposite of that openness, or where does openness kind of revert back to?

23:23

So this doesn't have like direct correlations with the dramatur angle, but it kind of does. I think that openness is really connected to the persecutor role in the dramatur angle. It's that I'm not allowed to feel moved by you. I have to stay strong in my stance versus there's no feeling inside of you that could destroy me. I can make space for it. I can be.

23:47
And that's why it goes back to certitude.

23:51

Yeah, that's right. So in high demand religions or in close family systems, curiosity and emotional openness are seen as threats. I'm certitude and control are emphasized over exploration. So, I mean, we're not given an opportunity, like, why don't you just go explore your sexuality and figure that out for yourself? It's like, no, here's the way, here's the rule. And if you break it, you risk hell.

24:17
Here's the punishment, yeah.

24:19

Other worldviews or emotional states are shamed, you know, if somebody says that they have a different political stance in you, it's not there's no space for that. And so part of how I use it when we're like deconstructing those systems is just working on Could you be more curious, starting with some curiosity, maybe when you see something in someone you don't like. If I see a position and my husband Sean that maybe scares me instead of judging it and labeling it. Oh, there he is again doing that thing. I wonder what's going on for him. I wonder what he's feeling right now in this moment. I wonder how that feels in his body. And then it really kind of I think if we're starting with just like the individual is learning how to have that like inner safety to explore inside of you. That there's nothing you could discover that would threaten your relationship. That's a big one. I think is I think a lot of times we're afraid to be open or soft because maybe we're going to discover we're wrong. Or we're going to discover that there's something we don't like in our partner and our friend. So just having some like space that we could receive it and explore it and that it wouldn't destroy everything.

25:27

I'm seeing the two-way-ness of this, because it's openness to others and their experience, what might be going on for that person, but also, and I think that's probably the easier one for me, because I think about being open to showing others who I really am, and that just feels like standing naked in front of somebody else, but the two-way- ness of it, I think is what creates the vulnerability or where that vulnerability component is, because if all I'm doing is asking you, what is that like for you? Tell me more about you, you, you, you, you. That's beautiful, and that's an important part, but it doesn't match you. It's like drawing all the information out of you without matching it with any vulnerability on my part.

26:15

That's right. I think it's can I remain open even when I feel at risk? What am I willing, openness might be what am I willing to risk? And can I remain open when I feel uncomfortable? When I feel like there's space between us? When I feel different? When I feel uncertain? An example that kind of comes to my mind would be there've been times I'm sure anyone who's raised a teenager where one of my teenagers is gonna come at me with like a you never did this for me or you didn't do this right or I'm so mad at you about this or you love one of them that I've heard quite a bit is you love this other one more than you love me. And my first response would want to be to harden up to that. Like, are you kidding me right now? Do you know all the things I've done for you? Like all that stuff. But I think openness would look like some curiosity. I wonder what that feels like for him. I feel like he's not his love.

27:08 Yeah.

27:10

If that's how he feels, I bet that's really scary. I bet that's sad. I bet he wonders if he'll ever be loved by anybody. Like, that's a really deep pit of pain there. If I can stay curious about it, maybe pretend that it's not my child talking to me, but just a human who's in pain, then I can usually find a way to kind of be soft and open and validating and all the things that you need to have an intimate connection with somebody.

27:34

That's so beautiful, because one of the points of pain for me in my childhood that I didn't really realize and not able to put into words until much later was my inability to influence the system. My mom had six kids in 10 years, and there was just this constant three-ring circus going on there, which makes sense. This isn't a judgment of those decisions at all. It's putting into words my experience of not being able to influence a cog in the wheel of this family. We all just had to keep going and moving. It didn't matter if I was tired, it didn't matter if I was hungry, it didn't matter. I was taken care of, but just the lack of openness of the system to the person. You see this in institutions that it's like they eat people for lunch, and they will always protect themselves over the individual. I think a lot of people can probably think about institutions that protect themselves over the individuals, whether it's a church or an employment system or even a relationship.

28:42
are we willing to risk my identity as a good mom?

28:49 Mm hmm.

28:50

in order to hear his pain? Or am I going to get kind of armored back up and like, I'm a great mom and how dare you say those things to me, right? Can both be true.

29:00 Yeah.

29:01

good mom and he's hurting. I was listening to a podcast earlier this morning with Krista Tippett, and she asked this question. I wrote it right down. I thought it was beautiful. She said, I think the question we need to be asking is, what is the quality of my presence in the relationships that I'm in? The people in my everyday life who see me and touch me and need me, what is the quality of the presence I bring? And I think that kind of ties into this idea of like, am I showing up open and soft? And we all know what that feels like when you encounter it. It's amazing. Yeah. When you go to the doctor and the doctor just listens and is open versus kind of armored up and I've got all the answers. It's just such a gift to have it. And that's, I mean, it's a little bit aspirational. It's not how I show up all the time, but I'd like to show up that way.

29:49

That reminds me of another question that I also wrote down that I thought I want to get brave enough to ask this. And here's the question. What is it like to be in relationship with me? What is it like for you? Because I have the story of what it's like for me. I'm a good sister. I'm a good daughter. I'm a good friend. I have the list of all the things that make me, quote unquote good. But just the openness of that question, inviting the other person to tell you, what is it like to be in relationship with me?

30:18

Yeah, I love that. And I think when I was going through this question earlier today, I was thinking, okay, in the morning, when we're getting ready for school, what is the quality of my presence? And I was like, Okay,

30:31 Mm-hmm.

30:32

I was seven year old Charlotte seeing mom through that lens. I don't know if that's the quality of my presence. I like it to be. So it gives me a little place to kind of maybe ground before where I really like this tool. And it's the same way. I really like the drama triangle. Sometimes when I find myself in a situation where you're in conflict, especially with really close relationships, your family of origin, your spouse or partner, your children, you can get really confused and really foggy and not really know what's going on. You get into one of those disagreements where, especially with like a partner where you're going around and round and then you don't really even know what you're fighting about anymore. You don't know what's up and down and you could use the drama triangles like, okay, where am I at in this triangle? Okay. I'm in the persecutor. And then it gives you a real quick steps to get out of it. I think this works the same way. I'm in a conversation. I'm feeling shut down. I'm feeling hurt. I'm feeling angry. Gives you a similar kind of thing. Like with how am I doing on openness right now? How am I doing on authenticity? Am I being honest? Am I having some emotional integrity right now? And then the last one that we'll get to, and what does my responsiveness look like?

31:41
Let's dive into responsiveness.

31:43

So responsiveness, the vulnerable point in responsiveness is about engagement. So it's allowing myself to be moved to have action or empathy. So see how they all are really connected. They kind of all feed each other. The more open someone is in a relationship in, a conversation, or in a moment, the easier it is for both parties to then be responsive. The more authentic, you know, someone shows up and is like, I've done nothing wrong and you can no one wants to be responsive to that. Well, not in like a healthy way. Maybe in like a...

32:15
I'm gonna throw a punch you away.

32:17

But when someone says, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and scared right now, that just inspires responsiveness. What can I do to help? I want to be here for you. So, let's start with how it looks in an unhealthy system. Responsiveness is often transactional or conditional. You get this if you do this. If you follow the family rules, you're the golden child and you belong. And if you don't, you're the black sheep and we talk badly about you. Your emotional needs may be met or they could be bypassed just based on if you're living the family norms or the system's norms. Attunement is replaced with institutional demands. So there's no kind of tuning into what one particular person in the family or system needs. It's this is how we do it. This is how we always do it. This is the rule. Yeah. And love and belonging are tied to compliance. So when we're deconstructing, you know, a reflection question I might ask is, where did I learn to silence my needs in order to be accepted? And what if I could get care right now, what would the care that I need be? You know, it's kind of that tuning back into like what you would need. Or if I could act how I want to act right now, what would I do? If I could say what I want to say, what would I say? It's just kind of like thawing out all of those like rigid rules that kind of keep us from responding in a way that's very authentic.

33:39

It's so interesting because I know one of the obstacles that has kept me from responsiveness is this idea that if I am open and if I am responsive and I'm not met with openness and responsiveness, I'm going to feel terrible. I'm going to blame myself. I'm going to say, gosh, you're so stupid. Why did you open yourself up that way? Why did you stand there naked in another person emotionally? And I think that's probably pretty common. But it's one of the things I think that speaks to my own need to hold my own discomfort in a way that I didn't know how to do and to trust myself that even if that does happen, if I show up in what I think is an open and responsive way and I am not met with that same responsiveness, that I can hold that disappointment and that sadness for myself at the bare minimum and not shut down and blame myself or blame the other person.

34:45

And I think that's why I like the way this builds is that if we're both showing up authentically, if I'm showing up authentically and I'm with a person that's showing up authentically, the chances of the openness happening are much higher. And if we're both showing up open with a lot of openness and presence, the chances of responsiveness, I feel like they're almost a hundred percent. Yeah. It kind of gives us a guide. When I had a therapist ask me this once years ago, I was kind of having this, every week we were talking about the same relationship. And the therapist finally asked me like, has this person ever shown you that they're willing to like, and I was like, oh wait, no. So it was like the beating your head against a wall hoping for something

different. If you're having a repetitive, long-standing relationship where there's no authenticity and openness, you probably shouldn't be surprised that there's not responsiveness there, that this person isn't really able to like, attune to you and show up for you. They've given you enough data at this point to know that's not something they can do or wanting to do or willing to do. But if we're both showing up authentically and we're both open to each other, the chances of being able to emotionally tune in, reach your hand out, put a hand on the back, notice you, hey, I see that you seem sad. You seem like you're in pain. I think responsiveness is not just about showing yourself, but it's seeing the other. It's this like, empirical kind of like, I see you, see me. What it started as when I first started working on this, it was connection. That's the point I had in the triangle, I called it connection. But the more I worked at it and kind of looked at it and saw it in my clients, I realized it wasn't just about connection because connection can be really one-sided. Like one person can show up and get all of their needs met and feel like they got everything they wanted. But it's more about this flow of like, are we both showing up for each other? Are we both meeting each other's needs? Or is this just a performance? Like this is what a good wife does, she washes the dishes and puts them away. Does that make sense?

36:44

Yeah, it does. And I'm just thinking about how I have learned to know the difference between true intimacy and whatever, right? Because I do think it's possible. And I do think I have had friendships and relationships where I was over-connected and telling myself that it was intimate or that it was like a really stable, vulnerable relationship. And I'm just trying to think back over, like, how did I know? How would you know if intimacy was mutual, if connection was mutual, if vulnerability was mutual?

37:23

Well, I think you would know because you would want, you would be feeling all of those things inside of you. And you would also have a person that's being authentic that feels open.

37:35
you would see the evidence of it.

37:36 Yeah, like.

37:37 Yeah.

37:38

I like to like let's use it just as a family system. I recently had a client who is facing something really difficult. And so she went to her family and kind of like opened up to them and shared a bunch but really authentic maybe for the first time in a long time. And what she got back in return was silence. That is not an intimate relationship, right? That's that was deeply painful, but it was really good data for her like to return and continually do that would probably not be in her best interest. So she gets to then take that data and recognize that this is a different type of relationship. It doesn't mean they have to end. This will not be intimate. I will not be able to give them all of this and have that reciprocated.

38:24

And I think that's another just level of telling the truth. It's telling the truth about you to you, and then it's telling the truth about other people to you. And that I love what you said that just because the relationship isn't the most intimate or vulnerable that you would want doesn't mean that you can't still have it and invest in it. It just, I think gi,ves you a really clear eyed view of, well, now that I know this, maybe I'm not gonna invest so much time and energy because there just literally is not a return on that emotional investment.

38:57

We can only have so many intimate relationships. Not every relationship needs to be intimate, but if that's what you're hungry for and that's what you need, recognizing where there's empty wells and where there's a place that's going to be nourishing, I think how this kind of started to come to me was when I deconstructed Mormonism and I left the church, I lost lifetime friendships, friendships that I'd had for decades, and it was deeply painful for me. It felt confusing, I didn't understand why these relationships that some of which I mean I'd had for over 30 years were gone, and as I was making sense of it, that's what I actually recognized. Oh, these weren't intimate. I thought they were, but the truth was if I couldn't show up authentically and be loved and be met with openness, willingness to understand me, if I couldn't show my deepest truth inside of me and have that accept it, it's not an intimate relationship. That's why it was so easy for I think it to fall away the way it did. A deeply connected intimate relationship, they would have

already known these things about me that would have already been there, there would have already been openness, and so once we're in that kind of relationship, we would have worked with each other in it.

40:13

Yeah. We've talked about, and I think I've maybe even talked about on the podcast before, one of the most shocking things to me was that not one person came to ask me, Sara, what is this like for you? What's going on for you? And you know, fine, maybe they didn't already know. I mean, I think they would have if we had truly had an intimate relationship, but no one came. And so that pain, I think of realizing that these relationships weren't what I thought. I think the only thing that matches that in intensity now is the safety and the connection that I feel in the intimate relationships that I do have where I know that maybe it's going to be uncomfortable to tell the truth or I'm a little worried about being vulnerable here, but that I will be met and I will be held. I will be affirmed. Even if I don't get the outcome that I want, I'm going to have the experience with another person that feels like being cared for, being met, and being safe.

41:18

Yeah, that's right. I think once you get a taste of that, it's really difficult to ever go back to what the conditional relationships and systems. Yeah. And I think it's a good model for me to like, you know, if I want to proceed or not, if I met early on with authenticity and openness and responsiveness, well, I'm going to keep moving in that direction. But if I have early encounters where there's a lot of like, performing and a lot of, you know, closed rigid kind of structures, yeah, that's probably not going to be where I'm going to invest.

41:49

Yeah. So if this is making sense to you, and if it's something that, like, I can imagine myself hearing this and just saying, I want that. That's something that I want. Starting with authenticity in the lowest risk situation first, it's often with yourself or with a trusted coach, therapist, friend, you know, partner, someone who can hear you. That's where to start.

42:15

If I'm thinking back on it, the reason I was eventually able to leave both my family and my, um, religious systems that were not healthy was because I started going to therapy and I had this hour a week where I was authentic.

42:30
And that's all.

42:31

I was at first was just an hour a week where I'm just authentic with me. And even that was not fully authentic in the beginning, you know, even in the beginning, I think it was like, yeah, I'm fine. Everything's fine. It took a while for me to acknowledge myself. I'm sad. I'm hurt. I'm confused. And as I got more practice being authentic with myself, you start to feel the difference authenticity has a really specific kind of vibration in the body. And when you have to go back to like going along with things that don't feel right, biting your tongue, playing along with toxic ways of being, I just couldn't do it anymore.

43:06 Yes.

43:07
It just kind of naturally started to create some space.

43:11

Well, and it really does become just the standard that everything else gets measured by. And again, it doesn't mean that those other relationships aren't valuable and worth keeping for other reasons. I'm really grateful that we have had this conversation today. Is there anything that you haven't been able to say yet that you wanna add to the conversation?

43:31

You know, I think that this is just a tool that can help you have more in your relationships. So, if you want, I'm just going to use the example of a romantic

relationship because that's what most of us talk about in therapy. If you want more in that relationship, a great place to start is learning how to first find the authenticity inside of yourself and then accept the authenticity inside of your partner. Be open with your own differences and be open with your partner's differences. Like it really can get really just like checklisty. Pick something this week that you want to start being more authentic about. Practice openness in a conversation, practice responsiveness, just practicing it inside of yourself, practicing it with your kids or your partner. I like models like this for that reason that it just gives us a place to kind of do our work and it can be a little bit of like a spiritual path where I could just practice these skills and as I get better at them, you'll start to notice that there's a sense of intimacy and closeness that maybe wasn't as easy to find before or there was too much fear to get there.

44:41

What I love also is that I can see how this builds. And I know you have it as a triangle model, but you also talked about how it's like circular as well. You just kind of keep going and digging into different places because what I have also realized is that there are some places where I'm really good at telling the truth about this aspect of our relationship, but there's other places where I'm learning. I'm learning to speak up about what the truth really is here. And I just didn't know it before. It wasn't an intentional dishonesty, but the way that you just kind of keep going back through these different aspects of authenticity and openness and responsiveness to just keep deepening that intimacy. This is what I think is so valuable about this.

45:28

Yeah, I think, you know, just speaking from the perspective of my relationship with you, I think that, you know, we've been friends for five years, was that five years? Going on sex. I think that our relationship really started to deepen when we had an experience a year or two ago, where we both had to be really authentic with each other about feelings about things that were vulnerable, about places where we were different. And that's what I value so much in our relationship is that I was met with openness and responsiveness, like the things that I needed were kind of like remembered and hold on to and that I felt safe enough to show you the places I was different. And I think that, but if I was to speak to anyone who's maybe never done that with a friend, it's really kind of scary the first time. But if you look at the friendship, you'll probably be able to see there's enough evidence there that you can take that risk. I think we're all hungry for it. We're all waiting for somebody to be authentic. And when I'm authentic, it gives everyone else in my world permission to be authentic. Right. So when somebody's like finally says like, yeah, motherhood is really hard for me, every woman in the room is like, yeah, me too, right? Like we all just want someone to take the first step. And so maybe it's you need to take the first step in your friendship or in your relationships.

46:53

I love that. And 100%, it also, I was a person who it felt like I had a lot of friendships kind of come and go. And what I realized was that, oh, a lot of the going of these friendships where it kind of just seemed like we just kind of stopped contacting each other as much was a point where we didn't know how to be authentic with each other. We didn't know how to tell the truth about something. And so it just kind of petered out. And so if that happens a lot, you know, for you, if you're listening to this, that might be something I know it was for me. And it's not that I was doing it on purpose. I just didn't know how, and I think, you know, to be totally fair when in some of the ways that you were authentic with me, I didn't meet you with a ton of skill. I met you with desire, willingness, but that you know that the skill of listening and really hearing and responding kind of came later. And so if what you have in the beginning is a willingness, that counts and that is enough to keep moving forward.

47:56

Last thing I'll say about this, I remember when I was getting trained to run group therapy, that we learned that a group can hold almost anything and be healthy. But the moment the group had emotional inauthenticity, it would start to get sick. And you would watch the group disintegrate before your very eyes. So, you know, you'd have this group that's like thriving and everyone's healing and growing in the moment, like basically, you know, an emotional lie, someone's not showing up authentically gets into the group, the group would start to fall apart, and you could almost predict it within a few months, the group would die. And I think that's a pretty good model for how we work as well, that in friendships, when if we can't really show up and be honest there, they just start to fall apart.

48:39

Yeah, I've seen that. I'm really grateful for you and for the way your mind works around some of these bigger things because I think you put into words things that are really important and impactful for me. So thank you.

48:51
Thanks for having me.

Episode 112 - The Hidden Cost of Chronic Accommodation with Celeste Davis

One of the biggest challenges for people pleasers is the fear of disappointing, inconveniencing, or hurting others. As women, we have often been programmed to avoid these situations in order to maintain happy and peaceful relationships since childhood. But how can we truly find happiness and peace when we constantly betray our own wants and needs to avoid conflict and keep others satisfied? In today’s episode, I speak with Celeste Davis, who writes about deconstructing patriarchy and learning how to take up more space in the world as a woman on her Substack, Matriarchal Blessing. We explore the themes of her essay, "The Cost of Chronic Accommodation," which addresses the sacrifices women make to ensure the happiness of others—and how to break that cycle. Here's what we cover:

• The invisible cost of never prioritizing your own desires

• How a woman's self-sacrifice is expected and even romanticized by our society

• Why doormat or b*tch are not your only options for how you show up–there is a middle ground where you can assert yourself

• How social structures that depend on doing invisible work for free keep women from valuing our time and energy 

• Two unique definitions of boundaries to help you protect what is sacred to you

• How to deal with the avalanche of emotions–fear, anxiety, shame, guilt–that you have been programmed to feel when you disappoint someone

I can’t wait for you to listen.

Terri Cole on the We Can Do Hard Things Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/are-you-a-high-functioning-codependent-find-out/id1564530722?i=1000703548035 

Find Celeste here:

https://celestemdavis.substack.com/

http://celestemdavis.substack.com/p/hidden-costs-of-accommodation 

https://celestemdavis.substack.com/about

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/

https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach

https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333

What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!

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Transcript

Sara 01:00

I have Celeste Davis on the podcast today, and it's a conversation that I have been wanting to have for some time since reading, well, discovering, and then starting to read your Substack. So, thank you so much for being here. 

Celeste 01:11

My pleasure. Happy to be. 

Sara 01:14

The particular essay that you wrote that I just could not stop talking about was called The Cost of Chronic Accommodation. And so before getting into that, what do you want people hearing this conversation to know about you? 

Celeste 01:27

I'm a mom of four. I live in Spokane, Washington. I write a Substack called Matriarchal Blessing, where I talk a lot about patriarchy and deconstructing patriarchy and taking up more space in the world. 

Sara 01:45

When you wrote The Cost of Chronic Accommodation, can you tell me a little bit about what was going on in your mind that kind of helped you to frame the argument that you make in that essay? Sure. 

Celeste 01:59

Well, this is something I've encountered many times, I don't know you have as well, Sara, that I would see my friends and I would see myself and just so many of the women around me, try to kind of navigate life trying to get what they want. But trying to do that, they just kept running into the exact same roadblock. And that was called disappointing other people. And so they would want what they would want, but they would try so hard to get it in a way that they didn't hurt anybody's feelings or make anybody mad at them, or inconvenience anybody or take up anyone's time or space. And you just can't really do that. I really think that it is the spiritual work of women to learn how to build their self, build their ego, like it's the opposite for men who they need to lose the self, they need to lose the ego. But for women, when we have these messages pushed on us relentlessly to be selfless when we're already starting from a different point, we already have this lifetime of conditioning to be selfless, then we just disappear more and more and more. It's not really the work we need to be doing, we need to be doing the work of building the self and taking up more space and being more kind of confident and assertive. But we can't ever do that work if we never allow ourselves to disappoint people or inconvenience people. So I guess to see if you want to go into specifics of what made me write the essay, my mother is like obsessed with Jodi Moore, she's like a life coaching podcaster. And she always has her on the background whenever I visit her, she listens to it constantly in these calls. And I just noticed this trend of these women, they all had the exact same issue, which was that they wanted something. But in order to get that something, they had to inconvenience someone or disappoint someone, and they were unwilling to do it. So like, how do I ask my husband to help me around the house without making him mad? How do I deal with my sister's hurt feelings without hurting her feelings? How do I decline going on a family vacation without disappointing my parents? How do I say no to my team without them being mad at me? How do I get the support I really need without inconveniencing anyone? And it was just like, the roadblock was exactly the same. And the route was exactly the same for all of them that you have to just, you have to inconvenience people, you have to disappoint them and you have to sometimes make them mad. And that is the thing that as women, we've conditioned ourselves not to do, that's like the number one rule, right? Don't be selfish. And you have to be a little bit selfish to learn and to grow and to be a human. But anyway, that's what made me write it. 

Sara 04:36

Oh, I mean, if you've got your bingo card out and you're listening, you should be close to bingo because all of those different scenarios just tick off a little box. I think we've all run into either those exact scenarios or ones very similar where we find our wants kind of butting right up against either expectations or what someone else wants and we have to disappoint in convenience, make possibly, you know, hurt other people's feelings or make them mad or continue to betray ourselves, what we want, what we need. And that's such, oh, I mean, I have been in that place. It feels like I lived in that place, you know, for a lot of years of my life. And I guess the way it kind of felt to me was that I wanted happy, peaceful relationships. You know, I wanted a happy, peaceful relationship with my husband and with my kids and with my parents. And when what I wanted threatened that kind of happy, peaceful, gosh, it just felt so hard. 

Celeste 05:45

Oh, so hard. Yeah, I've definitely noticed the exact same thing. I had kind of this epiphany several years ago when I was at a women's retreat and we were journaling and I was dealing with wanting to leave the religion that I had grown up in my entire life, Mormonism. And I was very clear that I wanted to leave, but I really just felt like I couldn't, like I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't. And I just kept going in circles, I want to, I can't, I kind of want to, I can't, I can't, I can't. And then like when I kind of peeled back the onion of like, why can't I? At the very center, I can't disappoint this many people. So many people would be so disappointed in me. My parents, my siblings, my in-laws, my sister-in-laws, brother-in-laws, my ward, my friends, my kids, friends, parents, my kids, friends, all of them. So disappointed in me. And I, that was at the core of it. And then I have run into that same core so many times. Like last year or two years ago, I had, I'm also like, I meet with people who are transitioning out of religion. And I had a client who I knew I needed to drop. It just wasn't a good thing, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it because I would, you know, make her feel bad. And I just like was like, I want to do this. I can't, I want to do this. I can't, why can't, I can't make someone mad at me. I can't, you know, and I run into that. It's honestly sad and depressing how often I run into this exact same roadblock. So when I talk about these other women, like on the Jodi Moore podcast, I'm talking about myself. Like I am in this boat very much. 

Sara 07:17

I think all of us are because if we zoom out for just a second, you talk about the patriarchal underpinnings a lot in a lot of our behavior in your Substack essays, and that's what it is. There is a romanticizing and an expectation of women's self-sacrifice. I attended a funeral recently of a woman in my old religious congregation, you and I have an endless list of all of her sacrificing, how she never pursued anything for herself because it would have come at the expense of something for her children or something for her husband. I know that that's not going to be the case for everyone listening, that there is this real religious romanticizing of self-sacrifice, but I want you to just think for a second. If your eulogy was being read, how prominently would your own self-sacrifice play in that? Because I think it's just good to check, not that self-sacrifice is bad or wrong. I think you have four kids, I have five kids, other people have kids and jobs and partners and dogs, and there isn't a certain amount of giving and loving that is required by connected loving, healthy relationships. But as I listened to this endless list of what this mother had sacrificed, I just wondered where was she? Where was what she liked? Where was what she dreamed of doing with her life? Where was what excited her or really made her unique? The one unique thing that she could do or be in the world other than the self-sacrificial person for everyone else. 

Celeste 09:12

Right. And the sad thing is like, that's not a that's definitely not a one-off. I mean, that is what the people in our lives who we love the most usually, like expect from us. This is the expectation, especially of mothers, this endless well of giving and that is what is held up. And that is what was rewarded and that is what is expected. So we're not crazy. It's not just us being like, Oh, silly little me. I have a hard time and convincing people. It's like, no, this is like the script we have been handed in Western society as mothers right now in the 21st century, like this is what it is. And it's hard to go against that script, because predictably, people will call you selfish, and then you will start to doubt yourself. And people will be disappointed in you if you stop serving them in the way you always have. But what I wanted to really point out in my essay was that it's not just that there's a cost, if you buck the script and you start taking up space and you start following your own dreams and making more space for yourself. It's not that that part has a cost. It's equally that chronic accommodation has a cost that one is just a little more invisible. But it's still a cost. I mean, there's more women have, you know, more chronic illness than men and tons of built up resentment just doesn't go away on its own. You have to constantly be managing that and it comes out of physical illness, it comes out in depression and stress and overwhelm, like there is definitely a cost to never prioritizing your own desires. It's just a little more invisible than the cost of making people upset with you. 

Sara 10:47

that's so true. And I love that you said that, you know, we're not making this up. We're not making the difficulty of this kind of conundrum up. It's baked into our experience growing up in Western patriarchal, you know, even I would say capitalist societies where what you do is more important than who you are, what you produce is what is, you know, valued, whether that's money or labor or, or, you know, something it, it really is a conundrum because you are right, there is a cost. There is being called selfish, there is being called difficult. There is, you know, I interviewed a Crystal Hall a few weeks ago, and she was going to be ordained in her religious tradition, but she wanted to change the rights to match her own, you know, view of feminism. And she was called disrespectful and difficult for just wanting things to reflect her lived and hoped-for experience. And so the price is real, but the cost is also very real, chronic illness, the resentment, okay, if you've got the bingo card out, that's another one, you know, the resentment that the fear that the disappointment that we feel when we're in that kind of chronically accommodating stance. 

Celeste 12:06

Yeah. Yeah. And you, the other cost is you're kind of having to very often gaslight yourself into like, Oh, this isn't a big deal. Oh, it's fine. I'm fine. It's fine. It's fine. It has to be fine. Because if it's not fine, I'm going to have to make everybody around me mad. I'm going to have to be a bitch or whatever. Sorry. Excuse my language. No, no, it's like, it's welcome here. And so the work is like, you're constantly mentally having to kind of rearrange your reality to convince yourself that things are fine to convince yourself that things are fair to convince yourself that you don't actually need that much time or space to yourself or money or whatever it is. And you kind of have to gaslight yourself out of your own reality, which really erodes your trust. And it's just kind of a sad way to live. And I've lived it. I know. Okay. 

Sara 12:54

I have, too. I have the terse like, no, it's fine. It's fine. No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's okay. It's okay. Like, I think so many women have mastered the, and you're shoving the resentment down, or you're shoving the sadness down. That's what I love about the story of Nancy from the second shift. Can you tell that story briefly? Because I think it's such a great illustration of this particular cost. 

Celeste 13:19

Mm, yes. So in the book, The Second Shift, the author Allie Hauschild, it was written back in the 80s. And she was a sociology professor at Berkeley. And she wanted to research like, who was doing the work after when women entered the workforce, she wanted to interview couples who both had full time jobs who were working the same amount of hours. And she wanted to know who was doing all the work of the second shift of the meals and the house cleaning and the dog and the children and all of that. And well, she kind of knew who was doing it. But she wanted to know how everybody felt about it and how they made sense of it. So she like for a decade would go into couples homes, specifically like 12 couples for over like eight or 10 years, and see who was doing what and interview them and how they felt about it. And so the first couple in her book, she talks about I mean, they're made up names, but this couple Nancy and Evan, and they were they lived in Berkeley, right in the in the 80s, but it was still like one of the most liberal parts of the country. So they were both like gave lip service that they were feminists, right? Evan said he was a feminist, but he just wasn't doing any of the Second Shift. Nancy was doing all of the childcare, all of the meal prep bat,hing the children, putting them to bed, and all of the housework, and all of everything. And Evan would, you know, do his little hobbies in the basement. And anyway, so Nancy had kind of a breaking point when she had like two months after she had her first child. And she was just like, Okay, something has got to change. I cannot keep doing everything and have a full time job. And all of this. And so she made a plan. And she's like, Okay, we're going to do we're going to divide it all up. And you're going to cook every other night. And I'm going to cook every other night. And you're going to take turns doing the laundry, and I'll take turns doing the laundry. And so on Nancy's night to cook, she would cook, and on Evan's night to cook, you know, he'd be like, Oh, I forgot. Sorry, I forgot to go to the store. I don't sorry. Or, you know, he just wouldn't do it every night. He's like, I'm just tired tonight. Sorry, I can't I can't do it tonight. And so it just wasn't working. And then the same thing would happen with the laundry, it would just pile up and up and up and up until she would finally break. And then she would do all didn't want to get divorced more than he didn't want to get divorced. And so he kind of had the power card in their relationship. And so what she ended up doing was she created what the author calls a family myth, which is, okay, I will do the upstairs. And Evan will do the downstairs, which ended up just being the garage. And she's like, that's fair. Everything is fair. And she had to like really convince herself that it was fair because she didn't want to leave and she didn't want her life to change. And so that's kind of the compromise she made. 

Celeste 16:08

But her resentment required daily work to keep it in check. And you know, she's trying to convince herself that there's not a cost. There was a cost. There was a cost. She just decided to shoulder that cost dea,l with her resentment, and do all of the work. And you know, I don't mean to judge women in that same situation. It's a really, really hard decision. Divorce is not easy. And it's not always the best route. I guess the point is like, there is a cost. There's a cost to this, right? And I'm not saying that there's a right way, wrong way, but just to acknowledge that like, it's not like, Oh, this is the perfect way to be completely self sacrificing. And there's no cost at all. There is that

Sara 16:47

That is so true, and especially women who have been in the position of supporting husbands, and they have not furthered their own education or their own professional goals and their own work experience, oftentimes after a couple decades of that, you find yourself in a financially down position that makes divorce really terrifying. So, I have a lot of sympathy and empathy for Nancy, and it's just so common that we find a way to maintain—one of my favorite quotes is by Friedrich Nietzsche. He says, most people prefer dishonest peace over honest conflict. That's such a good quote. And the way that I change it just a little bit is because, kind of from where I'm sitting, it's like we don't have the skills for honest conflict. It's not that we prefer it. I don't know that Nancy, if we could have her here today, would say, yeah, I just prefer the family myth, you know, truthfully, maybe. But I think that from where I'm sitting, what women lack are skills to disappoint people, skills to inconvenience people. It's a lack of two things. Number one, like, how do I actually do that? What are the steps that I take to disappoint someone? And two, how do I fortify myself internally to really deal with the fear, the anxiety, the worry, the shame, the guilt, this avalanche of emotions that I have been programmed to feel when I disappoint someone? 

Celeste 18:23

Oh, so much to say about that. First off, I think it's such a mental game to do that work of really truly valuing yourself. Because you are definitely taught not to, and you're definitely taught to see your value if other people see you as valuable. And this work, they're not going to see the value of you prioritizing yourself and your time and your hobbies and your desires, as much as they will see the value of you valuing their time and hobbies and what you can do for them. And so what's going to happen is you're going to have to develop so much self-validation that you're not crazy, that you're not selfish, that you're not being mean, that you're not being unreasonable, because those things will all count on it count on them being thrown at you, right? When you shift, if you have been accommodating chronically everybody in your life, and you want to stop, count on those things being thrown at you. And if you have not developed that self validation, where you are sure of yourself, and you are sure you are doing good and doing what needs to the work that needs to be done, you'll crumble, you'll crumble to their pressure, you'll crumble to the labels, you'll, you'll come, you'll just go back to accommodation, because, you know, that's familiar. That's what you've always known. But if you really want to do this work, I think you have to spend, frankly, years doing the work of knowing your own worth and knowing your own value and really being willing to prioritize your own equality. I mean, that's kind of what it is, is that women the way marriage in this country and in the in the West, I mean, honestly, for this isn't just like a recent thing, this is for 1000s of years, the history of patriarchy, where, you know, society is run on the invisible label of women. That's how it's worked. That's how it has always worked. There's so many structural strings in place to keep you from valuing your time and energy, because our social structures depend on women not doing that and just accommodating and doing all of the invisible work for free and not even seeing it as work, right? We only see paid work as work, even though it is work to clean and to cook and to raise children, that is absolutely just as valid, but we don't value it. So you have to do the work of valuing your own work valuing your own time valuing your own desires equal to the people around you. And because that's not how our system is set up, equality is going to feel unequal, right? Because we're not used to women's equality, we're used to women's inequality. And so even just if you value your own time, the same as your husband's, if you value your own time, the same as your children's, your children and your husband are probably gonna call you selfish. 

Celeste 21:04

And they're probably gonna think that's very unequal, because we're so accustomed to inequality. And so if you don't do that work, when the pressure comes, you will probably crumble. And it just takes so much self validation when in a system where we are so accustomed to needing validation from other people, flipping that it takes it takes work, I think it takes reading, it takes talking to other women who have done it, and a lot of validating. Yeah. 

Sara 21:29

That's such a good point. I remember the first time. So I started working about seven, yeah, seven years ago. And so then I started doing a day job and then all the mom stuff as well. And that's when it quickly I was like, we can't keep doing this. And so my husband and I have kind of been in the work of rearranging that. And he has been willing. But I think there have been times when we have fallen into this equality feels weird, you know, I know I have felt that I'm sitting in my office and I'm still either finishing up on some work or I'm taking care of something while he's making dinner and it feels weird. It feels like there is like I should it's this impulse in my body to like get up and go help or stop what I'm doing. And like I should be, I should be in there. He's taking kids to doctors appointments that I used to take them to and there was a you know, some tussling over that, because he had learned to value his time working and making money over, you know, my time, when I wasn't doing anything. And even in the beginning, when I wasn't making the amount of money that he was making, there was we had to really have some of these, you know, honest conflict talks that were so hard, because I'm like, honey, it's not about the amount of money. It's about the access to free time, the access to time to work. It's about equal access to use the time that you have. And it was an ongoing conversation. And I think, in large part, we have worked that out. But my heart really goes out to a lot of women who ask me the question, how do I explain this to my husband without making him mad? How do I explain to him that I want to go on a trip with my mom and sisters without making him think like, I'm just being selfish and wanting to get away from him. It's happens a lot. 

Celeste 23:36

So common. Yeah, okay. That brings up two points, but I kind of want to hit on first boundaries. The exact same as how we started this podcast off. So many women go into boundary setting, already shooting themselves in the foot. Because the question isn't like, how do I create this sacred space around me? The question is, how do I do this without making anybody mad at me? And you can't, you can't, you can't set boundaries without it. That is your goal. You're doomed from the start. You're doomed before you start. If you are trying to set boundaries before you, even without making anybody mad at you. And I think we try to do it like an example I use often is like, you know, the laundry, let's say you have always been doing your husband's laundry. And you want to stop exactly like you said with the Nietzsche quote, instead of this like honest conflict, we go for dishonest piece, or you go you reach for these things without ever really saying outright, this is what I want. Instead, you go to experts and you're like, well, look, look at these studies that like, when men help at home, they're more happy. Or then you'll reach for like, trying to get a consensus like, well, this husband, this husband, this husband, this husband, actually, so many husbands do their own laundry. Right? Or you can, you know, you just go all through all of these like wiggle waggle things without actually directly just like so you could try to convince him until you're blue in the face, or you could just freaking stop doing the laundry. Right? But instead, we try to can we try to make it seem like this is gonna be great for you. This is gonna make you better. This is gonna make you happy. And we're losing like that we're still prioritizing the other person above our own desires. And we're still like, putting their feelings above our feelings, right? Because we could have resentful feelings about doing the laundry for years and just shoulder that and just absorb that. But then be unwilling to put our husbands through even five minutes of discomfort. It's so crazy when you really break it down. Like we would rather be resentful for years than cause our husbands five minutes of anger. It's crazy, actually. Anyways, and that's not to say not everybody is in a safe position and in a safe manner. So make room for that. But when you break it down, and that way, it is just kind of crazy. And I did hear I want to say to I heard I heard my favorite definition I've ever heard of boundaries recently. I was listening to a TED Talk by Elizabeth Gilbert, about the spiritual work of men's visual work of women might have an essay on that, but it's actually from her ideas on this. And she has a TED Talk. It's not a TED Talk, but it's a talk she gave in Canada. Anyways, for some company. But the way she describes boundaries is like a sacred circle. And this is an idea from Joseph Campbell of like, he was asked, he talks a lot about religion. So he was asked, like, how do you define the sacred? And he's like, you just draw a circle around something and you say, this is sacred. That's it. That's what religious have been doing for centuries. 

Celeste 26:36

They're like this book, this temple, this thing, it's a circle, and I call it sacred. And so Elizabeth Gilbert describes boundaries as you draw a circle around something and you say this is sacred. And I'm trying to do that. This is the mentality I'm going in with the summer. I really struggle with summers because all my it's like we've worked so hard to equalize our marriage and the school year, it's like pretty tit for tat. Like we divide the meals in half, we divide the grocery shopping in half, we divide the errands in half, we do we like meet together to share the mental load with doctors appointments and birthday presents and birthday parties, all of that. But the summer, when the kids are off school, it falls to me. Anyways, so I'm trying this summer to draw a little circle around a certain amount of hours for my free time for my work and my hobbies, and my solitude and my spiritual practices, and say this is sacred. And I won't let anybody trample on to what is sacred for me. And that's my boundary. I need this many hours every day. And I'll be creative and how to get it or whatever, but I need to hold that to be sane. This is my threshold of time of solitude that I need for myself. And I'll draw a little circle around it and I'll say this is sacred to me and I will keep this boundary. 

Sara 27:53

that is so good. I'll add, because I think having several definitions of boundaries to kind of really play with and see what feels right for you, I think is helpful. Princess Hemphill is a writer, somatic practitioner, and they define boundaries as the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously. Oh, that's good. Yeah. And I love it because it really centers what we want for our relationships, which is love, and which is connection. And it does make the center of the boundary a relationship. When you were talking about women not wanting to inconvenience their husbands, even for five minutes, that emotional caretaking is also taught, right? I'm in charge of making sure that nobody gets upset. I'm in charge of making sure that everybody's having a good that everybody has everything they need and that everybody feels good. And I really see it as a conundrum. And I like to find a middle space because there are going to be some relationships when you stop the chronic accommodation, that it becomes very clear that what they love and value about you is your accommodation. Totally. And there are going to be some relationships where you are able to just say, you know what, fuck off. I don't care about you or this relationship continuing, but those are going to be, I would guess, fewer than some relationships where we either need to keep them for financial reasons or other reasons that matter for us, or because we actually like our partners and want our relationship to continue with them. Or we have children or friends or bosses or parents, you know, fill in the blank. And we want the relationship to continue, but we also want to address the chronic accommodation. And so I wrote down a list of phrases that I would use with my parents, especially about, you know, their disappointment in me when I also left Mormonism. And I would just say to them, like, I get that this is really hard for you. I really understand that because it felt like a way to acknowledge, like, this is a change. I'm changing this dynamic. And of course it's going to be hard for you. This is what we've always done. I said to my husband a lot, like, I really appreciate your willingness to look at this with me and address it. And I know that it's uncomfortable. You know, thank you for your willingness, because this is going to take both of us or it makes sense that this is changing our dynamic and that is uncomfortable. And I remember saying to a friend, like, I get that we're going to have less things to talk about, but staying connected to you is important to me. And I'm just grateful that we can work on some other things, because all we used to talk about was church, right? So I think there is a way when we do the work that you talked about to self-validate. Like, I feel so convicted and convinced that this work to find a place for me in my life where I am equal to everyone else is so important that I can have some compassion for the way that, in some ways, it actually might even feel like a betrayal to other people when I change things up or when I want something that I've never wanted before. 

Sara 31:12

Like, I can hold space for that and also not let go of what I want. And I think that is the difficult place is how do I hold on to me and try to hold on to you in in a new way. 

Celeste 31:26

Yeah, that's really beautiful. That's really, really good. I like that definition of boundaries a lot. 

Sara 31:31

I have been reading a book called When Women Were Birds by Terry Tempest Williams and she actually introduced this idea of betrayal. And I read this sentence and I, maybe I gasped audibly, I certainly did internally because she wrote, to find our sovereign voice often requires a betrayal. And I know that word is so powerful. But I think for a lot of the relationships or the scenarios that we're talking about, disappointing people, inconveniencing them, angering them, changing the dynamic, it can feel like we are doing something wrong, right? Because betrayal is wrong. You're supposed to be loyal. You're supposed to be true. You're supposed to, you know, be the person who is reliable. And so I just wonder, when you hear that sentence, what does it bring up for you? I'll say this sentence one more time. To find our sovereign voice often requires a betrayal. 

Celeste 32:34

Yeah, betrayal is a really strong word. And I think that it's almost the question of like, do you betray yourself? Or you do you betray someone else's comfort? Do you just betray someone else's maybe vision they had of you in their mind? Do you betray their desires? Or, you know, it's almost like one or the other is going to happen. And it's really, really hard work to then say, Okay, I'm not going to betray myself anymore. I'm not going to betray the things that I want my little circle that I have decided a sacred of my time, my desires, and myself. I'm not going to betray that anymore. And if that means betraying the vision you have of me in your head, I'm willing to do that. And again, easier said than done. It's so baked in, but I think it kind of comes down to like, acknowledging that it is a betrayal of self to not speak up to not be honest. Yeah, I'm just I'm reading a book right now called, I'm mostly here to enjoy myself. And in that book, though, there's a girl's trip of like five women. And she's commenting on the dance that all of them are dancing to avoid disagreeing with each other. And so it's like those women would rather just stew in like daily resentment of doing the thing they didn't want to do, whether that's being with them people too much or not doing the thing they really go into the beach they wanted to go to going to the restaurant they wanted to go to, they would do, they would go so far just to avoid disagreement. But again, that's kind of a betraying themselves and therefore they're soft, they're betraying their sovereign voice, when they're just keep the peace, keep the peace, keep the peace, keep the peace. And chronically, I mean, I know so many women who have made keep the peace their entire identity, that they don't even ask themselves what they want anymore. They have no idea because their personality is just keep the peace, avoid disagreement. And so their sovereign, they have betrayed their sovereign voice so many times that it's not there anymore. They can't access it. 

Sara 34:43

I'm smiling so big just cause I have been in that dance where you're like, I really don't want to go eat Thai food, but that's what Susie chose. And Celeste said she wanted it too. So, okay, I guess I'll just go, right? And it's such kind of a simply daily scenario that I think so many people can relate to. So where then if women want to begin to practice finding a sovereign voice, disappointing people, finding their place, drawing the boundary, whatever kind of, whatever words, you know, if you're listening to this, whatever words call to you, write them down because words are an act of creation. And when we write it down, I think that's the first step. Just telling yourself the truth, I want that. Like you don't even have to have all 10 steps mapped out, but just if you feel a little hugging, pulling something, what would you say to a woman who is feeling that and is also maybe frightened or worried about speaking up, not accommodating, shaking up the dance or the dynamic and the worry that it will cost something. 

Celeste 35:55

a great question. I mean, I think it has to be doing the work of really, really, really knowing deep down in your toes that you are worthy of equality. And that takes a long time. And for, I don't know, I can just speak to my personal journey. I had to rely on other women's words for many, many years before I really believed it for myself. I could see like I could read a book by Sue Monk Kidd and be like, Oh, wow, she's really valuing herself. She's really inconveniencing lots of people and betraying a lot of people's trust in her to really speak up and say what she wants to say. I see how she does it. I don't feel ready yet, but I can, I can take that and I can hold it as a beacon for the future. And then you just read it. And for me anyway, it was really reading a lot of other women's words who were doing this work and who were valuing themselves and were valuing their time and their energy. And it was just became so empowering to me that eventually I was able to be like, Oh, I see what's happening here. I'm in this position where I either have to betray myself or someone else, or I see what's happening here. Everybody else is prioritizing, you know, their, their time above my time. And I'm accommodating that. And I need to stop doing that. Like this is on me now. I can't just, because, you know, it's something that's also really common is it's really easier to kind of stew in resentment than to really hold yourself responsible for your own equality. It's an uncomfortable truth. It's a lot easier to complain. It's a lot easier to play the victim. I know a lot of older women in that position where they outright hate their husbands or outright are extreme here, but they've never really taken accountability for their part in their dynamic or, you know, really done that work. And so holding yourself accountable then. And I think that we don't do that because we have, I guess maybe I'll just speak for myself. I had in my head this kind of stereotype of this angry, feminist bitch who I did not want to be. And so I didn't know how to prioritize myself without becoming this stereotype in my head of this just like really like cussing complaint angry, like, how dare you? That wasn't me. That didn't jive with my personality. I didn't know how to make more room for myself without becoming that. And a phrase of Brene Brown's has kind of become my mantra in these difficult conversations. And it's don't puff up, don't shrink, stand your sacred ground. And that kind of goes back to what we were talking about before about your boundaries being your sacred space or whatever you draw a circle around, like know that your ground is sacred. Your time is sacred. Your desires are sacred. Know that you're not just being an angry bitch to ask your husband to help you or to ask your parents or to whatever accommodate you need or to speak up at the girl's trip for what you really want to do that day or where you really want to eat, whatever it is. 

Celeste 38:55

Know that you're standing on sacred ground of your desires and you might not get, you know, the response you want. But and then to again, that don't puff up like there's this thing called like the drama triangle, right? And it's like the persecutor, the victim and the savior. And it's like, for me, that's really important to avoid. Because I don't, it's easy to like, it's kind of a cheap trick a little bit to like resort to be like, well, I have the victim here, like, you're always this. But just to like, be like, no, I don't need to resort to that. Because the ground I'm standing on is sacred. And I can just stand here grounded. And I can stand here knowing with my head held high, and my shoulders held back, that what I'm trying to fight for here is worthy. It's my own self-worth. Really, it's my own equality. And that is sacred ground. And so you don't have to come up, your only options aren't doormat or bitch. There's a middle ground where you can just be your own full person and be like, yes, I'm willing to make you mad right now. Because I know this ground is sacred. And I can stand here grounded. I can tolerate that you will be upset about this. And I'm willing to do this work anyway and still love you and still love me. So

Sara 40:05

beautifully said. And I love the idea of honoring our anger as something that is trying to tell us something, right? Bringing us information, resentment and anger, for me always show up where I need to take better care of myself, right? It points me in the direction of either something that really matters to me in the world, or where I need to have better boundaries. My anger tells me like, we don't like this, this doesn't feel good. And resentment tells me we feel like being the victim here, right? And so I love that you, what I heard you say is, you know, doing the work of knowing that you're worthy of equality, holding yourself responsible for your own equality, really being honest about what part of this dynamic have I actually created? I think it's just happening to me. And so I'm resentful about it feels like a hostage situation. But how am I actually creating it by either what I'm not saying, or what I'm not doing, relying on other women's voices that I mean, your Substack has meant a lot to me in the work of other women. And so I'll make sure we link to that. But that is so important because I do think there is a part of this or a phase where you see it and you want it in other women. And I think envy actually plays an interesting role there. And what are the two emotions that women are most cautioned against anger and envy, right? Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, don't be a jealous bitch. Don't you know, don't be an angry bitch. And so but those two emotions, I remember feeling such envy, when I saw other women taking up the space or doing the I felt envy, watching my husband take a nap on a Saturday afternoon, right? Like, must be nice, must be nice. So to let the presence of those emotions be informative, like what about this is making me angry? Is it where I need to take better care of myself? Or is this something that I want for myself, that I just don't know how to get yet? Because when I peel back that envy, it was a really tender part of me that was just like, I want that too. I just don't know how to get it. So I said, the last thing that I would just add in terms of like, how do you begin to walk yourself out of self-betrayal is to start small, start with like less risky, less dangerous feeling situations or dynamics first, and then let that give you some confidence, some practice tolerating that discomfort, some building of skills. I was working on this with a client. And you know, she was sharing a win. And she shared the story of being on the phone with a representative from her insurance company. And they finished up the reason for the call. And he said, Would you stay on to take a survey? And she said, No. And he said, Oh, oh, okay. And that little just, you know, little disappointment, she caught him off guard. But that meant so much to her. And I we celebrated the hell out of that, because that is a real step in the right direction. And it felt doable to her. So if you're thinking about how to do this, you can kind of imagine in your mind right now, what are the relationships that feel maybe the riskiest? 

Sara 43:31

And maybe there are some situations where the laundry feels totally doable to you. But some other part doesn't start with the laundry, right? Give yourself some softer places to start first or call your insurance representative and then refuse to take the survey at the end of the call. And just notice how it gives you a little bit of confidence. So, is there anything that you really wanted to make sure was part of this conversation that you haven't gotten to say yet? 

Celeste 44:01

I don't think so. I'm just a fan of what you just said, like the exposure therapy, little by little. I mean, I would also recommend the book Codependent No More by Melody Beatty. I believe it, Goodie, but it's written for women just in this exact situation. And yeah, that book was really helpful to me. 

Sara 44:17

I love that book when I read it. And I also want to recommend another book by Terry Cole. And she talks about high-functioning codependents, which look a little different than the codependency in Melody Beatty's books. But she has a bunch of great books as well boundary boss, I think is one of hers as well. 

Celeste 44:42

She was on Glennon Doyle's podcast. 

Sara 44:45

Yes. Amazing. Amazing. I'll link to that podcast as well, because it was so good in helping me see that a lot of my codependency doesn't look like what a traditional codependent might, but it's really this kind of high-performing, high achieving, doing everything, saving everybody, feeling like I know best what everybody needs. And that's just another way of accommodating. 

Celeste 45:15

Yeah, that was a part of that podcast. I just like, Oh, like, hit me right in my gut when she was talking about how she felt like she had to save her sister who was like going through some drug addiction and really, really toxic relationship, homeless, like really rough and she felt like she had to save her sister and then her therapist like asked her the question like what makes you think that you know, the best route to your sister's healing. I was just like, Oh, that's so good. Like that, you would rob her of learning her own lessons in her own way. Because you think you know best about her life path. It's good. It's a good podcast. 

Sara 45:55

It is so good. And that actually, really, as I have stopped accommodating, I have seen an amazing ability of the people around me to step up to new levels of doing and contributing, but also conflict and having the discussions about it seemed so scary, but it was actually the secret doorway to more vulnerability and intimacy. And in the relationships that matter the most, where we have kind of been able to meet each other, I have felt so much more able to really ask for what I want in more and more vulnerable and intimate ways. And that had to start with me deciding, like, I don't know best, you know, maybe I shouldn't be the one doing all the time, everywhere, for everyone. So there's a lot of really beautiful changes. There's a lot of discomfort. I don't want to downplay that part. But I think that the point that you made so brilliantly in your article was that there's just not a way to stop accommodating without disappointing people, but that that will, for a lot of your relationships, be the thing that gets you the equality that you actually want. 

Celeste 47:14

Absolutely. And I mean, I love the quote that you brought up of like, you're really making the choice between dishonest peace or honest conflict and honesty is a crucial ingredient to intimacy. You can't really be deeply connected to someone if you're not being honest with them, if you're not being authentic, if you're not able to be authentic because you must keep the peace, right? So it's hard work. You're going to question yourself, but it's good work. 

Sara 47:41

It is. And I'm really grateful for you and for your words. That book by Terry Cole, I just looked it up, it's called Too Much, it just came out last year. So again, other women's words, if you need some of those, find Celeste on her sub-sex list. Is there anything else that you want people to know about what you do or where to find you? No. 

Celeste 48:00

Pretty much the Substack. 

Sara 48:01

Okay, thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate it. 

Celeste 48:05

Yeah, it's a pleasure.