Episode 123 - Living with ADHD and Letting Go of Good Girl Rules with Kristen Carder
Living with ADHD means it doesn’t disappear once you find success–you can be kind, loving, respectful and still show up with your ADHD when you connect with yourself and take accountability. Today, I’m bringing you a conversation from the I Have ADHD podcast, where I was interviewed by Kristen Carder. We talk about my journey of being diagnosed with ADHD in midlife, the relationship between neurodivergence and people-pleasing, and how I became an ex-good girl. Here’s what we cover:
How “ADHD brain” can impact your life even when you have good intentions
How my ADHD diagnosis later in life brought both clarity and grief
My approach to seeking help managing perimenopause
Why self-abandonment is at the heart of people-pleasing
What it truly means to be an ex-good girl and how to reclaim your voice
Find Kristen here:
https://ihaveadhd.com/podcast/
https://www.instagram.com/i.have.adhd.podcast/
https://www.facebook.com/ihaveadhdpodcast
Find Sara here:
https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!
Transcript
Sara Bybee Fisk 00:02
Welcome to the Ex Good Girl podcast, the place where people pleasers, perfectionists, and overgivers come to unlearn the good girl rules that you thought were making you good, but now you can see you're actually just keeping you small. If you've spent your life being unable to say no, putting everyone else's needs and feelings above your own, constantly seeking external approval or avoiding conflict to make others feel comfortable, if guilt and resentment feel like a constant weight in your life, it is time to learn to knock that shit off. Every episode we dive into the stories, skills, and strategies that you need to stop shrinking, start speaking up, and to live a life that is authentically and unapologetically yours, while also deepening the connection and vulnerability in the relationships that matter to you. I'm glad you're here, let's jump in.
Kristin Carder 00:59
Hey, what's up? This is Kristin Carder, and you're listening to the I Have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, I am caffeinated, I am regulated, and I am ready to roll. I am here today with somebody who is very special to me, someone who is near and dear to my heart, Sara Fisk. I originally met her when she trained me as a coach in a coach training program that I was involved in in 2021, I believe. I just connected with her so much and was so lucky to be able to circle back, reconnect, and she is now diagnosed with ADHD. I just am so glad that she's here today to share her story. She helps people pleasers. Y'all, if you know one thing about having ADHD, it oftentimes leads us to be people pleasers. I'm so glad that she's here to share her wisdom with us, Sara. Thank you for coming.
Sara Bybee Fisk 01:57
Well, you know, I'd go anywhere with you. So this is an easy yes, and I'm just really grateful. I knew that you were an ADHD coach back when we met. Little did I know that I would be consuming your podcast, listening to everything you said within just a few short years. And you are such just a welcoming, open, nonjudgmental space. In fact, some of the things you say, I'm like, oh, no, no, I think we should be judging that. And you're like, no, no, no, we shouldn't be judging that. I'm like, oh, okay. Let's try it your way. And it feels better. It feels a little better, doesn't it? It feels better. It feels like a couple of weeks ago, I heard you say on a podcast, like, listen, I'm just the last minute person. I'm going to get it done last minute. That's just how I do it. And I've stopped making myself trying to block my calendar so that I get it done. And she does before. And I told some people I work with too, like, listen, it's going to get done. It's going to get done last minute. And that's just how we're going to do it now. So thank you for that.
Kristin Carder 02:59
I love it. Sara, I have to tell everyone of our first meeting because it is the most ADHD experience probably of my life. I signed up for a coach training certification. I was pumped. I was committed. I wanted to be there. I was prepared. I got all my materials. Like I was all in, so fully all in. And I hop on the Zoom. I'm actually like ready early, but I hop on the Zoom at like two minutes before the hour and I hop on and what's happening? First of all, you are my instructor. So I hop on to see your face and nine other people who are in my cohort. And I realize mother effer, she's wrapping up the class. It is not the beginning of the class. She's saying goodbye to everyone. And I am just like, why? Why? Why does the ADHD brain work like an ADHD brain? And why do I have to have an ADHD brain? And why do I have to embarrass myself? My first class, I'm so committed. I'm so all in. I'm so like, I'm already coaching. I already feel like I have so much to offer. And I show up at 2.58 thinking it started at three. No, no. What was that experience like for you? Because that was one of the worst moments of my life.
Sara Bybee Fisk 04:29
Fascinating for me because you pop on and you're adorable and I'm like hi and yeah we're wrapping up and you're fine like it's fine yes you missed the first day but there's a recording no worries you're fine like it was not a big deal at all to me and I later saw confirmed all those things you were 100% in you were a hundred percent committed you were a hundred percent prepared you were already coaching and had some amazing skills and and presents to share with the class and so it just it was just like nothing on my end I would not have even remembered that if you had not brought it up but can I please tell like my side of a different story when you might because it's because again it does it's not a measurement of my commitment and of our commitment and our readiness and our willingness because you hired me to come in and train some coaches in a coaching program that you offer which is brilliant by the way and the first time okay the first time I totally missed it I just completely missed it because it was at the wrong time on my calendar and then somehow the second makeup meeting was also at the wrong time on my brains I I don't understand how it happened and so you call me and I am pulling weeds in my backyard so confident to mind that I have a full other hour pulling some weeds I'm hot I'm sweaty and the first words out of my my mouth is am I doing it again and you're like yeah honey you're doing it again so I run in somehow my brain is able to get me on zoom I don't even remember like seriously can we marvel at that I had that's amazing I had to find the email I had to enter the username the passcode all of it call me and I remember telling myself calm down calm down calm down calm down and then I get on there's like nine smiling faces yep and I'm hot and sweaty in a tank top I'm even remember what my hair looked like it would be crazy to go look at that was cute it was up in like a top knot and what I tell everyone is today you get to see how a coach recovers when the session does not start as it should and as you want it to and so you were generous and gracious and I really just it was such a beautiful thing to be held by that community it's like of course we've all done this I wanted I you know part of being a good girl is just profuse apologizing apologize apologize apologize apologize trying to make it better and I instantly was like I don't have to do that here they get it I don't have to do that here
Kristin Carder 07:20
And that is one of the main benefits of being surrounded by neurodivergent people, right? Is like at least having a friend, a community, like somebody that can share that experience and be like, you're good, you're fine. You don't have to apologize.
Sara Bybee Fisk 07:36
And so you get that experience with the community, but for me, what it's also done is kind of shown the light on when I do feel like I have to do this. And like, why do I have to profusely apologize to you? Like I shouldn't, I shouldn't have to do this because this is just a neurodiverse thing that I'm not doing on purpose. And so I apologize for being here late. Let's get started. And that's it.
Kristin Carder 07:59
Oh, I just want to reflect to you. Also mirror back to me and to everyone. Like you can be warm, loving, kind, respectful, successful with ADHD and still show up with ADHD. Like it doesn't go away when you have success. Like when you're hired to do something, it doesn't go away. But to be able to connect with yourself, connect with others, take responsibility and accountability and just move forward, let's go. That is a skill that we can all learn and you've modeled that really beautifully.
Sara Bybee Fisk 08:41
I think having the experience inside ADHD communities and in particular yours, when that kind of understanding is modeled and it's so missing in other places, I think one of the skills that I've been able to do is just, if I explain, you're going to notice, if I'm with a non-ADHD community, I'll say, okay, you're going to notice my brain taking a little more time to figure this out, and I just need a second. And I have found that if I just say it, like, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed right now.I'm going to need a few minutes. Without apologizing, I can create some of that compassion for myself that is so easily accessible in ADHD communities, and I can take it with me into some of the places where there isn't that same compassion.
Kristin Carder 09:30
And now a word from our sponsor. Hey, Kristen here. I'm the host of this podcast, an ADHD expert and a certified life coach who's helped hundreds of adults with ADHD understand their unique brains and make real changes in their lives. If you're not sure what a life coach is, let me tell you a life coach is someone who helps you achieve your goals. Like a personal trainer for your life, a life coach is a guide who holds your hand along the way as you take baby step after baby step to accomplish the things that you want to accomplish. A good life coach is a trained expert who knows how to look at situations, all situations with non judgmental neutrality and offer you solutions that you've probably never even considered before. If you're being treated for your ADHD and maybe even you've done some work in therapy and you want to add to your scaffolding of support, you've got to join my group coaching program focused. Focused is where functional adults with ADHD surround each other with encouragement and support. And I lead the way with innovative and creative solutions to help you fully accept yourself, understand your ADHD and create the life that you've always wanted to create even with ADHD. Go to I have ADHD dot com slash focused to join. And I hope to see you in our community today. So tell us your ADHD story because we have so much to talk about today, but I think that your ADHD story is going to be so relatable. It's significant. It happened later in life, obviously, just very recently. And I think that people are really going to connect with it. So how did you come to discover that you are an adult living with ADHD?
Sara Bybee Fisk 11:25
It was two things. First of all, I had some children where I was like, oh, there might be something to look at here. And as I started looking up symptoms, as I started looking up, how does ADHD present? Because I have this child who is struggling. And this child, my son, does not have the hyperactive component of ADHD. And so it was when I saw the hyperactive list, I was like, no, that's not him. But oh, there's another type of ADHD. I didn't even know because I actually have a background in teaching school. And the hyperactive component was the only one that we ever looked for and saw. And I only had boys with that hyperactive component being diagnosed with ADHD. So it simply wasn't on my radar until I had a child. And then I also just noticed things are getting harder for me. Why is that? It's harder to plan ahead. It's harder to things that had been easier in the past, time management, finishing a project. Now, to be fair, I had always had piles of projects started in different places. I had always been really in adult time, had always been probably the most difficult thing for me. I was like, why does it feel like I have an hour and I really only have 15 minutes and all of a sudden I have 30 seconds. I had no ability to really regulate my time while that had always been. But I just thought that's just how my brain works. I was never curious about it. And so the combination of a child needing to be diagnosed and then seeing my own decline, I guess, in things that were easier was what kind of tipped me off.
Kristin Carder 13:16
Hmm, what was it like for you to receive a diagnosis? Like how did it feel for you to go to be evaluated and then to be told like, yup, you've got ADHD.
Sara Bybee Fisk 13:28
I was actually thrilled. It felt like someone had handed me this box and said, if you open this up, you're going to understand yourself so much better. And so it felt like a gift. It felt like a piece of myself that I had not known what to do, I had not known how to interact with. And so in the beginning, it definitely felt like a gift. And then it doesn't feel so much like a gift anymore.
Kristin Carder 14:02
What do you mean? Tell me about that progression.
Sara Bybee Fisk 14:06
Well, hopefully this is relatable as well. I felt like in the beginning it was, everything was positive. I was like, yes, that's me. And yes, that's me. And yes, and yes. And it just felt so like, so self-affirming. So like, oh, that thing you do, it isn't like a bad thing or like your fault. So all of that felt like liberating and really full of just that unique joy of like getting to know yourself better. And then fast forward. And I think I'm in the stage now where it's like, okay, we don't want to live like this, right? And I have to just also name, I'm 50. And about in the last six months, whatever estrogen I had like barely hanging on, helping to do the job is gone. And so about in the last three months, it felt like my brain has hit an actual like wall, like trying to squeeze water out of a rock on days when I'm trying to work and do things. And so it's gotten markedly different, more difficult in the past. And so then I was like, okay, now we have to do something about it. And I have been kind of dabbling with a couple of different non-stimulate medications. I started taking them seriously. And you know what this first phase it's like, it's like, try this and it doesn't work. And it's just like a week of side effects. And then you try this and it doesn't work. And it's just like a week of side effects. And so I've gone through all of the non-stimulants and I have what I think is a healthy, I don't want to say fear, but I think a healthy anxiety around stimulants at all. I understand they're very powerful and that they do what they're supposed to do. And there are other things to be aware of as well. And so when my psychiatric nurse wanted me to get an EKG before starting Adderall, and I like that. And I'm like, okay, now this is serious. We're like testing my heart, okay. But I think the challenge, and I think what for me has actually brought grief is that my body is not performing. My brain is not performing the way it used to and there's sadness there. And I think the first stage of like, oh my gosh, this is me, I love it. This is self-knowledge and self-connection and self-compassion. I think the grief also belongs. It's just not, it's not something that, anyone prepares you for. Certainly at my psychiatric nurse's office, she's doing her job of getting me medicated and she's not talking to me about like my feelings and my, and the grief of like loss, like the loss of function, the loss of, I used to be a person who could just do that. Is a very real part of this as well.
Kristin Carder 17:18
So do you believe that is an ADHD component or is that more like midlife estrogen depletion, perimenopause slash menopause stuff? Like where, what are your thoughts about that?
Sara Bybee Fisk 17:32
I'm gonna say it's probably both. Yeah. Because I don't have an ADHD experience that is separate from perimenopause, I can't really say for sure. I know that perimenopause is its own grief because it is the decline of your body from the inside out in a way that nobody prepares you for. There is not one doctor who has said to me, like, this is coming, let's prepare you for it. And I understand, you know, girl, I know all the TikTok accounts to follow in the doc. And sometimes that's what makes me mad too. I'm like, why is it me and my girlfriends and sisters solving perimenopause with a bunch of TikTok videos? But I understand that we're figuring this out at a different level. And my daughter will not hopefully have the same experience because it is a bit of a mystery. It's a bit of a mystery. And I think the grief around perimenopause is that we were not prepared for the loss. And there's something really poignant, I think, about realizing that you're grieving something that has already happened. And I was unprepared. You're unprepared for and grieving something that is already, it's already happened.
Kristin Carder 19:05
It's fascinating because the median age for women to be diagnosed is 38. That's perimenopause. And that is the onset of perimenopause for most people right around that time, which is a very little known fact. Most women don't know that by the time you're in your late 30s, that that's when you should be expecting to experience perimenopausal symptoms. And what I've heard from so many, including Dr. Patricia Quinn, who is an expert, she's been in the ADHD space for decades and decades. And there's an episode, I think it's 149, it's estrogen's impact on our symptoms for the listener who might want to go check it out. But what she says is that so many women are being diagnosed in midlife, in perimenopausal time, because while they always had ADHD, now that their estrogen is declining, and it is hardly known at all that estrogen impacts the brain so much. So the very little function that we were able to have, we were holding it together, had ADHD, but had all of these systems in place. And we're really just like holding it together while the behind the scenes was a dumpster fire. And then the estrogen depletion starts to happen. And our brain is just like, no longer can compute. Sara, do you remember, what are the ways that estrogen impacts the brain?
Sara Bybee Fisk 20:38
It protects brain cells. It like literally helps your brain build healthy cells and protect them from getting damaged. It helps with learning and memory. It boosts your ability to like keep the things present that you want to remember. It improves your mood. You're happier. You're less anxious when you have normal serotonin or excuse me, normal estrogen levels. It supports brain connections. It increases blood flow to the brain. It reduces inflammation. It helps with nerve coding like that protective myelin coat. It makes sure that messages travel quickly and clearly. When your estrogen says bye, each of those things is going to suffer.
Kristin Carder 21:21
For sure. And then not even to mention how it impacts dopamine and serotonin. And so when estrogen, so estrogen is a neurotransmitter and when we have less estrogen, then we get less dopamine, less serotonin, which means that our mood, our ability to have a reward system, like all of that, it was not great to begin with because we had ADHD or have ADHD. And then it continues to get worse and worse, which again, is why so many women are being diagnosed in their late thirties. So many, so many late thirties, forties and fifties. Like this is not uncommon as an experience for women. Now for men, it's a different story. It's a different story, but for women, it's very, very common.
Sara Bybee Fisk 22:09
The thing that just surprised me was that the minute I became a part of this ADHD community, suddenly there are like millions and millions of people with my exact same story. Like I was holding it together. I was a stay-at-home mom, so I had a job where I was task switching like every couple minutes. There was no, you know, reason for me to think that I had ADHD and all of a sudden perimenopause hits and all of it just kind of comes on at once. Yeah, this is a very, very common story, which is part of what makes me wonder like, why doesn't anyone talk about this? Why isn't anybody telling me like, hey, this might be something to take a look at.
Kristin Carder 23:01
Yeah, that part of the ADHD experience overall, I think it's just so frustrating. It's so frustrating to be a human with ADHD who is learning things on their own that their doctor never told them and maybe doesn't even know. And that feels weird. I don't want to know more than my doctor. I want my doctor to know way more than I do. I don't want to be the one bringing information to my doctor and saying like, Hey, did you know this? Did you read this book? Did you read this article? And literally my doctor looks at me with a blank face like, no, I didn't. And like, it's awkward. I don't like it.
Sara Bybee Fisk 23:42
But I had my primary care who was no longer my primary care. I brought him some tests, some information, some articles, some studies, and he said, and I quote, we don't practice that kind of medicine here. And I was like, oh, the kind that takes care of me, the kind that is responsive to science, to my symptoms, to cutting-edge studies and technology, oh, you don't do that kind of medicine here? Okay. That's all I need to know. Thanks, bye.
Kristin Carder 24:12
What does that even mean, that kind of medicine? What does that even mean?
Sara Bybee Fisk 24:19
The sense that I got in the moment, and this is just me with my intuitive knowing, is that it hit his ego a little bit. I had this information and was asking, and I didn't bring it to him like, why don't you know this idiot?I was like, could you please take a look at this? Because everything in this little bit of information that I want you to have feels like it's describing me and helped me. And I felt like I just bumped into his ego a little bit.
Kristin Carder 24:50
Bye, bye. See ya. We'll go find someone else who will care for me and for my specific needs, which is a lot of work to find. But can we just take a minute to validate like how much work it is to find someone who will listen to you, who will be open to research, who is not an idiot, who's going to validate. And of course, it's not going to be perfect, but at least we'll have the conversation.
Sara Bybee Fisk 25:22
Well, the second provider I went to basically said, listen, I'll just prescribe you whatever you want. And I was like, I'm not asking for just a prescription. I want a partner in like helping me with this. I don't, I mean, I understand that I'm going to be taking medication. Thank you, you know, for the prescription. But basically their take was I'll just prescribe you whatever you want. And you're kind of on your own to figure out if that works for you. So I was like, okay, number two, bye door. Number three, number three is where I am now, psychiatric nurse. I really like her, but like the one thing that I did mention earlier, she's not, she is very focused on like the management of symptom side and the, are you feeling better side, which is great, but I don't really feel like I can talk to her about like how sad I am about some of this and, and how like this has, this has brought up some, some grief and some, you know, and so that's why I have a coaching community. That's why I have, you know, other tools and things that I've gotten for myself or developed for myself to handle that part of it, because it does take multiple people providing pieces of the puzzle. And I think that that is where I've landed there and it's fine. Like I'm not going to get everything I need from one person. And so I, I need to find a team.
Kristin Carder 26:49
I think that's so healthy. That's such a healthy approach. Because medication is a tool, but it's definitely usually not a perfect experience. It's not gonna take care of everything. Pills don't teach skills. Pills don't teach you how to regulate your emotions and create priorities and understand yourself and process grief. They just don't. Yeah, they don't. Where else are we gonna do that? We need therapists, we need coaches, we need community. Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 27:13
Every time I get to this part of talking about it, I feel tremendously grateful and also tremendous sadness for the millions of people who don't have a team, the millions of people who are not able to have access for multiple reasons to the type of care that I am able to get because I know how systems work, I know where to get the care, I know how to keep asking until I get what I need and I just always want to name that it's a privilege that I enjoy.
Kristin Carder 27:45
Yeah, that's so beautiful. So the main reason why I wanted to have you on is first of all because you've had such an influence in my life and I have just learned so much from you as a fellow coach and now colleague and you coach people pleasers and I love your podcast. It's called the Ex-Good Girl podcast. I would love for you to tell me what does it mean to you to be an Ex-Good Girl?
Sara Bybee Fisk 28:20
It means that I am always trying to maintain a connection to myself so that I can tell when I abandon myself. Because that self-abandonment is at the heart, that is people-pleasing, it's at the heart of being a good girl, always abandoning yourself for the other person, for their needs, for their wants to take care of them, to focus on them. And I'm not saying that that's bad, but when you are in ex-good girl mode, you don't have part of your energy focused on yourself. It's all outward, it's all taking care of other people, worrying about what they're thinking, wondering what they want, wondering about how can I make them like me, how can I belong here, which again has a place. But the transition away from those ex-good girl rules and the programming is that I matter too. My life matters. The way that I want to be a human and move through the world with a satisfaction level that I have in me and how I spend my time and energy, that's a big part of taking some of that outside external focus and giving it back to yourself.
Kristin Carder 29:45
What is self-abandonment? How would you describe that?
Sara Bybee Fisk 29:50
I would describe it as the feeling of not being able to choose whether I want to, let's just say, disappoint myself or disappoint someone else. I have to disappoint myself. I don't have a choice. Or whether I want to pick myself or pick someone else. I can't pick myself. I have to pick the other person. It's the feeling of not having a choice.
Kristin Carder 30:17
Mmm, that's so painful to even hear you describe it. I see so much of my former self in that.
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:25
Yeah, and it's, again, I just want to say, the fact that we learn to please each other in the relationships that we're in is not bad. It is part of having responsive and reciprocal relationships. If I'm in a friendship with you, I want to know what pleases you. I want to do things for you. I want to respond to your moods. I want to do things that contribute to a feeling of connectedness between us, and like I'm paying attention to you.And the only problem is nobody ever teaches us how to not do that, or how to regulate the energy where you get some and I get some. You get a little bit of my time and I get my time. You get my attention and I get my attention. And so the most common thing that people say to me, or women, when I'm talking about not people pleasing us, well then, I don't want to be selfish. I don't want to become like this bitchy person who only cares about themselves. And it's just always funny to me, because we're so used to living with everybody else's needs above ours. And we're like way down here. And what they think is that I want their needs to be the only needs that matter. And everybody else's needs way down here. And that's not what I'm talking about at all. It's this, it's equal. Like I matter just as much as you do. And you matter just as much as I do. And sometimes I choose your needs. And sometimes I choose my needs because I've developed the ability to connect to myself and to be observant about how I'm feeling here. And sometimes, yes, I'm gonna choose you and your needs. And sometimes I'm gonna choose me and I'm just gonna be aware of what I'm doing.
Kristin Carder 32:11
Hmm, I'm interested because I know you and I know you have a good girl story. So how did you transition from good girl, people pleasing, self-abandoning to ex-good girl, which is hysterical because you're still lovely and wonderful and kind and giving. So as you said, it's not like selfish or you prioritizing your needs above everyone else all the time, but just this like balance of your needs matter and my needs matter. But what is your good girl story? Like how did this, what were you like and how did you transition?
Sara Bybee Fisk 32:55
Well, it can't be told without acknowledging that I grew up in a very conservative religious community, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons. I lovingly call it Mormon land when I was in Mormon land. There was a lot of good there, a lot of things that were very beautiful and helpful for me. And so it's with that love that I use that term.But when you're growing up in a community, and it can be in a community, it can be a cultural community, it can be a political community where we have all the answers for you. You don't have to do the thinking. We've already done it for you. And that's just how you grow up. There's a built-in reliance on external authority to tell you, am I doing it right? And if you take the religion out of it, and if you're listening to this, and you just ask yourself, who are the external authorities I rely on to tell me I'm doing it right? We all have them, right? And especially those of us who are socialized as women, because one of the messages in that good girl socialization is, you're actually not smart enough to know this on your own. So we're just going to tell you so that you don't have to do this hard thinking. And you can just fit in and belong. And you can keep the rules. You can wear the right clothes. You can say the right things. You can have the right life so that everybody thinks you're doing it right, whether that's in a political sense, religious sense, cultural sense. So there's a built-in reliance on external authorities to tell you, you're doing it right. There's punishment when you step out of the lines. And as an oldest daughter who was relied on for help, I never had a chance. And that's the one thing that I would love if everyone could hear in the story is that my people pleasing and my being a good girl was never my fault, and it's never yours.It's not optional. And so as I grew up, and I had no idea how anxious I was, the hypervigilance of always looking around, hypervigilance and hustle, getting it done, getting it done, getting it done, being in the gifted classes and performing at the state level this. And by the way, I won the sixth grade Spelling Bee Championship. So I mean, it worked. It worked in my favor. Ask me to spell a word. I can do it. And all of those awards was how I mattered. It was how I mattered. And I'm getting a little emotional just thinking about just the endless wanting to matter. I was one of six children. We struggled a lot financially. Both my mom and dad worked. And I just really got the early sense that this machine that is my family, they're they're loving and dependable. And they're not slowing down for me. And you're not going to get recognized for doing anything less than extraordinary. And by the way, if you could just not have any needs that get in the way of just us getting through the day, that would be great. And so I'm pushing down like my big feelings, because those get me in trouble. I'm not allowed to be angry. I'm not allowed to be sad. And not allowed. That's, I get it. You get it, right? It's just like, I get it.
Sara Bybee Fisk 36:32
Like, I was sent away. Like, okay, Sara, get it. I'm trying. And I think we walk this line a lot. Like, how do we have kindness for parents and adults who do the best they can while also naming the things that were harmful. And so that's the line that you hear me kind of trying to walk right now. And so achievement, do it like lots of it always next, next, next. And the hyper vigilance of like, never being feeling able to like settle and just exist. Because somebody needs something, you could be helping someone. And that was also fueled by the religious component of like, be like Jesus, go out and serve, give. And I became the model Mormon. I did all of the things, all of them. And I loved doing all of them. And I loved the proximity to influence that it gave me because I never had authority. But as a woman who was the doing all the things, I had proximity to some, you know, to some influence. And that was as good as it got for me inside of Mormonism. And then through a lot of different contributing factors, the final, which was my daughter coming out as gay. It just didn't fit anymore. And it was, it was tragic for me. It was, you'll hear some more emotion in my voice now because the loss of the worldview, the community, the friendships, the eternal view of like, I have everything figured out and the loss of that. And I think that loss happens in lots of different communities when you realize, oh, this, there are some, there's a shadow side to this. There's a side that we don't talk about. And so it was kind of in the midst of leaving Mormon land that I became a coach and inside Mormon land, my people pleasing was highly rewarded. And so you can imagine my disorientation when I come into a coaching world where my people pleasing isn't rewarded anymore, but begins to feel uncomfortable. And then I am in a master coach training program and it gets called out in a pretty, what I will say now is a pretty unkind public way, but it had the effect of making me take a look at myself and like, what is going on here? Why can't I make a decision without worrying about who's gonna think what about it? Why can't I speak up for this thing that I want to say, but I can't, I feel like I don't have a choice. All of these just pieces of the puzzle came together because I was now no longer in a community that was benefiting from my people pleasing, but I was in a community that was asking me to take a look at it and see it as an obstacle.
Kristin Carder 39:49
Wow, I just wow. And boy, do I relate to leaving a system. And the loss, the grief, the disorientation of that, I just want to say solidarity. I felt that so, so deeply, so deeply.
Sara Bybee Fisk 40:19
And having an ADHD diagnosis has made so much of that life clearer to me, like when you think about an eye rejection sensitivity. I just put myself in a place to never be rejected by constantly pleasing, by constantly making myself indispensable, needed. Like, Sara, you're so integral to the workings of this particular thing that I would make myself that person so that I could leave on my own terms. And it really mitigated being rejected inside of that community where I knew all the rules. And now leaving that community where I don't know all the rules, or there are lots of different rules, and I get to decide, do I like those rules for me or not, is a completely different experience. But I think that's part of the transition from good girl to ex, is good girls fall, they know the rules and they follow them. And that's what keeps them safe and gets them belonging. It's also what keeps them hustling and hypervigilant. But coming outside of those rules and not asking anymore, is this right or wrong, but do I like this for me? Does this work for me? It's like a whole new world.
Kristin Carder 41:47
That is a whole new world because that was irrelevant in the land. Yeah, it doesn't matter what you want.
Sara Bybee Fisk 41:55
for yourself. No, it doesn't matter.
Kristin Carder 41:57
Exactly. How do you help people manage the dysregulation that comes with deciding something for yourself that might displease people that you love and care about? Like what are some ways that you help people to navigate that? And how can you share that with our audience in a way? Cause I think that will be so relatable where it's like, I identify with what you're saying, I definitely want to make more choices that are not self-abandoning, but how do I take those steps to navigate the dysregulation that comes with knowing that people I care about and respect are not pleased, they're not happy, they're disappointed, they're inconvenienced, they're mad.
Sara Bybee Fisk 42:50
That is, it's such a painful, complex process, disappointing someone else, especially with ADHD. It's just in another ballpark, and so here's what I have found. Number one, when you are in a good girl system, you don't even know what your own values are because they're just the values of the system. First of all, we have to be plugged into ourselves and our own values because that is the thing that gives structure to at least our desire to be this way in the world, whether it's kind, whether it's respectful, whether it's honest, whether it's a contributor. Those values have to be self-identified because most often the type of values that we have are going to guide us toward the behavior that we want, and what is in the way is a feeling. The feeling of shame that I've disappointed someone else, the feeling of anxiety that they're going to be mad at me, the fear that I will no longer belong or have status the same way that I did before I disappointed them. Those are all very real, and so I had to get a ton of training in feeling. I was a master compartmentalizer. I was a master at disconnecting, not feeling. I could switch very easily from anxiety to excitement. I could use that excitement like, okay, guys, what are we going to do? Let's have fun. Let's go do something amazing as a way of ignoring a lot of sadness, a lot of grief, and so feeling for me has been the thing, and it has been so beautifully messy. I mean, again, you're going to hear some emotion because I am so grateful that I can feel things that are messy, disconcerting at times. I feel uncontrollable, but I know I have me in a way that I just wasn't capable of before when I was trusting everybody else to have me.
Kristin Carder 45:05
Brings tears to my eyes.
Sara Bybee Fisk 45:07
Yeah, it does mine too. And if I could say the one particular part of feeling that has made the most difference is to know, a lot of my training is in somatic experiencing and some of my training is in internal family systems and understanding that parts of me were created to try and protect me. And the one part that I have to interact with most often, I call them the critical protector because they are convinced that if they just criticize me enough, I'll change. If they just judge me enough, like I'm just hard enough on Sara, she'll change. And so I have to remind that critical protector all the time like, listen, we're not doing it this way anymore. I know that that's what helped in the past but we're not doing it that way anymore. And I've got us, I have a plan because critical protectors are like, if I don't come in here, you're gonna screw this whole thing up and you're gonna lose everything. Your family members are gonna be disappointed. Your job, you're gonna lose your job. You're going to lose everything that's important to use unless I do this job of like being so incredibly hard on you. And I have to remind that part, like I'm here, it's okay. I've got us, I have a plan. We're taking this step by step. So that feeling and then building that internal dialogue with a part of me that really is trying to help that I think a lot of people who have ADHD have like, why are you doing this? Why do you keep acting like this? What's your problem? Why can't you change this? But to work with that part instead of against it because we both have the same goal which is that I have a connected, safe life.
Kristin Carder 46:57
I think that nobody listening to this podcast wanted to hear you say the way through, the way to be able to take steps to connect with yourself and to make decisions even when other people are upset with you is to feel. Nobody wanted to hear you say that, Sara. I know. For all of us, we're like, gross.No. Ew. Why do people on this podcast keep saying, like, a person says it all the time. Guests say it all the time. It's just like, quote unquote, unfortunately, this is the pathway, is being able to identify, self-soothe, allow, connect with, validate, and trust your emotions. There is no other way to stop people pleasing. There's no other way out of systems. There's no other way to say no when everyone else wants you to say yes. There's no other way. If we could find it, at least me, like how I feel is like, I hate that way. I hate that it is the way. If I could find another way, I'd figure it out. I would definitely do it. Then I would package it and make it a course. You guys could all have it. That way, the way of being vulnerable, of connecting to yourself, of doing the things that we were never allowed to do, which is make space for emotions and a cry and feel deeply. That just is so hard. I would say that that is 90% of the work that I do with my clients. I wonder if you feel the same with yours. That's the most of the work that you do as well.
Sara Bybee Fisk 48:48
Yeah. 100%. I just wanted to name that I think when you add an ADHD component to this feeling work, it changes it because these feelings in the beginning can feel overwhelming and outsized even for maybe even the situation, and I'll just be for me. With the ADHD component, a lot of these feelings in the beginning felt very overwhelming and outsized for the situation. The salad that I wanted at the restaurant wasn't there, and I would break down in tears once I started feeling. It's just like the dam broke a little bit, and so if you are in that phase of crying at the restaurant because they don't have your salad, it gets better. It gets easier to regulate that because that's a whole other – like you said, pills don't teach skills, and that regulation process in the beginning, you might feel like, I'm doing this wrong because this is out of control. You're not. Yes. You might feel like, this is ridiculous. I'm crying over a salad. No, that's right because you're not just crying over the salad. You're crying about the thousands of sad things that have happened that you never allowed yourself to have the sadness, the appropriate emotion for it. Be patient. It gets better.
Kristin Carder 50:15
Okay, so as we wrap up here, I think my last question for you is if feeling is the pathway and none of us actually want to do that, can you please sell us on what might it be like if we didn't people please? What has changed for you? What has changed for your clients? What is it like to be someone who is connected to themselves, who prioritizes themselves sometimes, who is able to understand themselves and walk in groundedness, knowing who they are? Sell me on that because I need a picture painted for me.
Sara Bybee Fisk 51:01
First of all, I am not that person all the time. I know how to come back to being that person when I slip out of it. I feel like it's a constant back and forth of like, measuring that self connection, am I happy with this? Is it giving me the information that I want? So I feel like it's a process of slipping out and getting back in and slipping out and getting back in. Beautiful, beautiful. Such a good question. When I have my best days, I can choose honest conflict over dishonest peace. That's a Friedrich Nietzsche quote there for you now, which has kind of really encapsulated the biggest change. I can choose honest conflict with love. I can say the things that I need to say, like, hey, this part of our relationship isn't working for me and I'd like to re-imagine this and recreate this with you. Are you up for that work with me? On harder days, I just cry and I just let myself cry and I let myself feel frustrated and I don't judge myself for it. I just, that's the biggest difference. If I'm gonna be sad that they don't have my salad at the restaurant, I'm just gonna let myself feel sad. I just recently went on a trip with my husband and I messed up our tickets to the one place I wanted to see and we didn't get to go. This place has been on my list since college, since learning about it. He loves me and wanted to jump into like, it's okay, it's okay, we're just gonna have to come back. We can get tickets another time. I was like, you know what, sweetheart? Thank you, I just need to cry and be sad about this.I'm gonna need to cry and be sad for as long as it takes. Then it just felt done. And now I can tell you the story with no tears and with a lot of compassion because I felt that. And so on my good days, I feel like I am me and I'm taking care of all of the parts of me in honest relationships with people that matter to me. I'm not pretending, I'm not performing, I'm not editing. And then on the days when I have less resources and less capacity because that's the thing, like fluctuating capacity to deal with and engage with the world, I just don't judge myself for it anymore.
Kristin Carder 53:30
Yeah, I love it so much. I love it, love it so much. I had this experience last night where someone came to the door to solicit, to sell something in the neighborhood. And I was able to respectfully but assertively say, I am 100% not interested. And he kept talking and I was just like, thank you so much, but I'm not interested. And I just gently closed the door. It was not like, get out of here. But it was just very assertive and respectful. And I remember last summer someone from that same team came to the door and I stood there frozen, not able to stop him. And I let him talk to me for 15 minutes. Feeling in my body like, get me out of here, get me out of here, what the heck, what the heck. Not able to just speak the truth of, thank you so much, I'm not interested. I think I said it and he over talked over me and I was like, oh, OK. And I just couldn't prioritize myself in that moment. Even though I was in my home, in my safest space, I felt ambushed and I will just never get over the contrast of what one year can do of just this work of connecting with yourself, connecting with your emotions, believing yourself, trusting yourself, knowing that it's OK to prioritize yourself over someone else once in a while. And just being able to just gently, absolutely no drama in my brain, thank you so much, I'm not interested. Goodbye, closed the door. I just felt like I've never been so powerful in my whole life.
Sara Bybee Fisk 55:26
It's so true our power is in those moments where we're not pretending or performing where we say like this this is the thing I want to say and I had a similar situation yesterday with a contractor doing some work in our home and there was something I wasn't happy about. Usually I would send my husband to relay the information and I just walked in and said hey I need to talk to you about a couple of things that are not working for me in the way this job is being done. Clear, kind and he pushed back a little bit and I said you're gonna hear me get a little angry here because what I am coming to tell you is not what I'm suggesting that you do is as the person who has hired you it is what I want you to do and if that's a problem you can go ahead and let me know now because this is what I want to see happen and it's I'm not asking for anything above and beyond I would have never been able to be that clear and grounded and like if I had said that my stomach would have been like and I would have gone away like was I too mean did he does he does he hate me now I would have over thought it I was like listen this is this is what we agreed on this is what is not happening tell me if that's a problem and I'm happy to let you know someone else do this job but I just don't I don't have time or energy to let this take up space and so that is I mean it's everything right it's in those moments. Do you just feel like a woman? I feel like the fucking queen of the universe yes yeah just like I can say what needs to be said and I had an incident at a family reunion where I was able to be really tender and really kind and just say this part of this relationship is painful for both of us can we please talk about it and so waiting into that yeah that the honest loving conflict that I just would have never like the possibility of being rejected being misunderstood being thought of as mean being thought of as somebody who wasn't nice it just would have been paralyzing before.
Kristin Carder 57:42
Mm. Oh, beautiful. Sara, if people are just listening to this and are like, I need more, I need more. Tell us where to find you.Tell us who you work with, how you work with them. Give us all the details.
Sara Bybee Fisk 57:57
You can find me on Instagram and Facebook, Sara Fisk Coaching. I work with individuals. I do one-on-one coaching and I do group coaching. The one-on-one coaching is kind of a catch-all for anything you want to work on. The group coaching is specifically to stop people pleasing. And it's as a beautiful, supportive, loving community. I mean, I've been a part of your ADHD community and just to hear other people say my experience in their own words, it's beautiful. And so that's why that group coaching program exists. And the next time that it enrolls is in the next couple of weeks and we start again at the end of August and we'll start again at the beginning of the year.
Kristin Carder 58:39
Amazing. And are you still recording your podcast?
Sara Bybee Fisk 58:43
Yes, my podcast is the Ex Good Girl podcast, which this is going to just make you laugh.It took me forever to be able to say that name out loud because it felt so scandalous when I first came up with it and that just goes to show progress is made in fits and starts but it is made and it is one of my favorite things because I get to talk about my experiences and interview people about their experiences of becoming someone who is self-connected and trust themselves and has stopped judging themselves.
Kristin Carder 59:18
Hmm, beautiful. Thank you so much for being here. This is every time I get to talk to you is such a joy for me. So thanks for sharing your wisdom, your knowledge, everybody go check out her podcast, her programs, you will not be disappointed.
Sara Bybee Fisk 59:35
Hey, thanks for listening. If this podcast has been helpful to you, I would really appreciate it. If you would give me a five star rating and whatever platform you listen to your podcasts.And if you go to my website, Sarafisk.coach, you can sign up there to receive my emails. Right now I'm taking private one-to-one clients who want my help speeding up this work in their own lives. I really hope to provide a lot of free information on my website and in my podcast for people to do this work on their own, but if you're interested in having a coach like me to help you implement these things faster, to find the blind spots and obstacles that you're not aware of, go to my website and sign up for a consult. That's a time when you and I can get on zoom and talk about the particulars of your situation. And I can show you how I could be helpful. The second thing you can do on my website is sign up for a freebie that I have called Difficult Conversations. Having a conversation that seems like it's going to be hard or difficult is one of the things that people pleaser struggle with. And so I've created a whole guide for you to be able to do that with some more confidence. That will also get you signed up for information about my group program, Stop People Pleasing. It's a group coaching program where you join a community of women just like you who are struggling to overcome perfectionating and people pleasing. And we do it together in a group. It's a really amazing opportunity to not just learn from your own experience, but just to see how similar you are to so many other women out there. The healing and the challenging and the laughing and the growth that happens in that beautiful community of women is really amazing. And if it's interesting to you, I would love for you to know about it.
