Episode 116 - The Enneagram for People Pleasers Part 1 with Wendy Montgomery
I have been so excited to have my dear friend and Enneagram coach, Wendy Montgomery, on the podcast. The Enneagram is an expansive and incredible tool that has helped me understand myself and those around me in a whole new way. In this two-part conversation, you’ll learn about all nine types and the insight they offer into why and how we people-please. Here’s what we cover:
The characteristics, core motivator, and core fear of each Enneagram type
Why understanding your Enneagram type can help lessen people-pleasing tendencies
How the Enneagram triads offer further insight into your type
The unique ways people-pleasing shows up for every type
A question for each type to ask themselves to gain more self-awareness
How gender stereotypes can impact Enneagram analysis
Find Wendy here:
https://www.wendymontgomery.com/
https://www.instagram.com/wendymontcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/people/Wendy-Montgomery-Coaching/
Find Sara here:
https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations
https://www.instagram.com/sarafiskcoach/
https://www.facebook.com/SaraFiskCoaching/
https://www.tiktok.com/@sarafiskcoach
https://www.youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
What happens inside the free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community? Our goal is to provide help and guidance on your journey to eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism from your life. We heal best in a safe community where we can grow and learn together and celebrate and encourage each other. This group is for posting questions about or experiences with material learned in The Ex-Good Girl podcast, Sara Fisk Coaching social media posts or the free webinars and trainings provided by Sara Fisk Coaching. See you inside!
Transcript
Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57
Danielle Savory, I am so glad that we get to have this conversation.
Danielle Savory 01:02
Me too. I have been looking forward to it ever since you sent me the text like let's do this
Sara Bybee Fisk 01:07
What do you want people to know? I mean, everybody already knows who you are. But for those who are late to the game, Daniel Savory sex coach, what do you want people to know about you?
Danielle Savory 01:17
You know, the thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is being a lifelong learner. And that is one of the things I have absolutely love that has kept me involved in this work, is this constant striving to like, understand, I mean, human psychology in general, I think you and I both geek out on all of the ways that we're socialized, how it impacts our nervous system, yada, but specifically, and really watching because it's presenting itself in such a different way, the impact that socialization has on the way that we show up with our sexuality and really all of these avenues that we can find, especially those of us socialized as women that are blocking us from feeling good, right, these messages that are saying like, let's get to the personal growth, but it's really just about surviving like enough to get by so you don't feel awful. But we don't talk about like, once we get to ground zero, let's talk about feeling like ecstatic and alive and like turned on and how despite all of the huge movements and progress we've made with sexuality and talking about mental load and people pleasing and all of these sorts of things, it's still kind of just getting us to like, a level that should be a birthright to begin with, let alone like a level that is like, of so much more joy, and there's just so many layers there. And so I think more than anything, like I'm just a lifelong scholar of this work and will continue just to show up in my own life, because I'm my best subject test. And then of course, to my clients and what I'm seeing in the world. So yes, that's who I am.
Sara Bybee Fisk 03:08
Well, I have been the beneficiary of that lifelong learning and your obsession with women and pleasure and getting them into their bodies and into their bodies in a safe way, into their bodies in an intimate, vulnerable way. It has been, we've had a couple of conversations and one of them, we recorded podcast episode number 25 where you said something that has kind of been rolling around in my head ever since. And it has to do with the level of kind of self-intimacy and self-vulnerability that is required for a woman to really know what she wants in sexual experiences. And I realized at the time that I didn't think I had it. And that's, there's a lot there that maybe we'll touch on today, but that really just has kind of been coming up and coming up and coming up. And I hear it in the experiences of so many women that I talked to because not only are they having bad sex or having sex that isn't fulfilling, not having orgasms, not experiencing the type of like intimacy and connectedness that they want, but they're blaming themselves for it. They are putting up with it. And they're kind of thinking this is as good as it gets. And they are experiencing kind of the slow decline or the die-off of their sex lives as just something normal. Like this is what is supposed to happen as you age, you just experience less desire and that's just how it goes. And so that's kind of like the backdrop for everything that was on my mind when Hulu dropped Dying for Sex. And I'll say right now, if you have not, if you're listening and you have not watched the show, don't listen to this if you're going to watch it, because we're going to talk about a lot of things that will spoil it for you or listen to it and then watch it later, your choice. But if you decide to watch it, but watch it and I will say, make sure that you look up the themes and the subject matter so that you know what you will experience and see because coming from a conservative religious background, that is, it's not something I would have ever watched before. And I just want people to be prepared. But it has been like few shows have affected me the way that Dying for Sex has affected me, because it talks about kind of all of these overlapping Venn diagrams of what should women be allowed to expect and ask for, and how do they get to the level of self-knowledge and vulnerability where they feel not just like they know what they want, but confident and able to ask for it. And then you overlap all of that with mortality and a timeline it just what were your first
Danielle Savory 06:08
I mean, I had so many, the first thing that came to mind was the fact that it was presented as this like urgency, right, because of dying, I really loved that theme. And the reason is I've written about this before, I've talked to my clients about this before. But it's been one of the most powerful practices that I've taken from when I was deeply in like the Buddhist meditation world and doing a lot of like learning from that, which was a basically like a death practice. And it's not for the faint of heart. And I think especially in Western culture, we have such this fear, right, about death, about talking about death, like it really is something that most people just like sex are very uncomfortable talking about. It's another taboo conversation, especially in the Western world and the way that we think about it, people are afraid of it. I was even trying to talk to one of my friends about this. And she was like, I can't even go there. Like, you know, how I get triggered
talking about death, like a lot of people have fear around death, you know, they don't want to think about their loved ones dying. But one of the things that allowed me to even start to explore like my own desires was a regular death practice where I go deep into meditation. And it's really uncomfortable, like I'm not saying this is not for the faint of heart, but really imagining that people that I love passing away, and even or myself passing away and what can be brought up somatically, emotionally, mentally is such a different perspective of gratitude, of absolute love, of maybe desire of like, wait, but if this is it, like, what does feel urgent? Like, what do I still want to explore? What do I want to say that I keep like week by week keeps going by and I'm not saying the thing. And it can bring that to a surface in a way that is felt. Because again, you know, if we're in deep meditation or imagination, like your brain doesn't and body doesn't know the difference of this is real or not, just like when you wake up from a dream, and somebody has died, it feels very real. And so, you know, even beyond the sex stuff, I loved the conversation around death and all of the things that it brought up, but also how and why that brought up this urgency and this desire and seeing kind of these things that don't match up in your life, like if I only have this much left, like, these things don't align. And the fact that so many women don't actually ask those questions of themselves, until they're faced with like the ultimate end. And can we start asking these questions sooner? And sometimes a death practice can really bring that gratitude and appreciation where you start to understand you see the things that really do make a difference. And then you're like, oh, it's okay that you didn't pick up your shoes. Like, I'm not really going to care about that later too. It's like the things that become trivial, but like, this part is actually really important to me.
Sara Bybee Fisk 09:31
I felt so much of that. I mean, it just kind of sucks you in. You are not allowed to look away from Molly's death, right? You are not allowed to look away, and you're not allowed to look away through the eyes of several characters who unflinchingly tell her the truth, right? The truth about what is gonna happen to her, the truth about the process that she is in, the truth about the limited time that she has left. It is, I mean, on the one hand, pleasure and mortality seem like opposites, right? Because pleasure is such a lived embodied experience, and her body is failing, and you see it in scene after scene where she is attempting pleasure and her body fails. And she goes after something that she wants, and her body fails. It felt like kind of gut punch after gut punch. If I'm going to be honest, I wanted her to get better. I wanted there to be a scene where the doctor comes in and is like, you know what, actually, you're not dying. We fixed it.
Danielle Savory 10:35 Orgasms, like, heal.
Sara Bybee Fisk 10:36
Yes. I was like- Right. But the characters who unflinchingly tell her the truth are so moving and so meaningful. And I just wondered what your thoughts were about either those relationships or characters specifically.
Danielle Savory 10:54
Yeah, well, I also like that you just brought up before we pass over this point of like the pursuit of pleasure with obstacles, right? And specifically with the obstacles of pain in the body, because for those of you that know my backstory, like that was me. And I think a lot of women, you know, at some point in their life, that's what it feels like. It's like, I want this and I'm starting to get more courageous in the desire for it. But then like getting pushback and pushback and pushback because your body isn't cooperating the way that you want it to. And how pursuing pleasure, despite these obstacles, really is like coming back to our conversation about like intimacy with self is like such a testament to like standing firmly in the ground like I'm worth this. Like I am worth it. Like I don't care how many times my body's like no, no, no, no, no, I want to meet it. I want to collaborate with it. I want to figure out a way that we can begin to move through these obstacles together. Not that I'm ignoring you and pretending this other stuff isn't happening, but how do we work together me and my body and my soul and my heart to create such a beautiful like connection of safety and trust and not abandonment so that we can all, all meeting all of these points of ourselves, right? Experience like this ultimate level of like pleasure. And I think it was that continuous pursuit of it. And to be honest, at some points in that show, I thought that it was going to, she was going to stop that she was going to be like, well, I can't now or I'm in too much pain now or this isn't working and I'm in hospice now. And actually like quit on this mission. And I'm so happy that like till the very end, like this was still at the top of the mind because I think it's so easy, especially as viewers and those of us that have been socialized in this culture to understand like what her husband was saying of like, but this isn't even important. Like we just need to spend time together. All these other ways that her desires to experience sexual pleasure were dismissed and honestly are just kind of dismissed in society from, you know, in general, like her mother dismissed it, her doctor dismissed it, her husband dismissed it. All of these other voices that are like, but why is this the thing? You're spending your last days on like, really? Is this who you've become that somehow that this pursuit of pleasure was so less worthy of her time and attention than just like connection with other people or conversations or I don't even know what she would be doing. Like just letting herself being babied by her husband. Like that should be more appealing to her than an orgasm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 13:57
I'm so glad you brought us back to that point. We'll get to the characters who tell her the truth in a minute, because I think that this is important. She faces such judgment around her choices. And I just want to name some of the cultural narrative that still exists for women around our sexuality. Be desirable. Have a body that's desirable, but don't have so much desire that you're a whore, that you just want sex more than anything else, because that's disgusting and gross.
Danielle Savory 14:30
Yeah, yeah, what's wrong with you?
Sara Bybee Fisk 14:32
What are some of the other kind of cultural, patriarchal bullshit that comes up for you?
Danielle Savory 14:38
Well, I was just I was just noticing like the way even her husband, right? Like there were so many things with her husband Like but one of the things was just like but you're dying Like you need to be taken care of like basically like submit to the thing that I've decided you need more of than you knowing what you need. That was such like a predominant thing throughout but also because some of her sex capades in this show weren't I would say as most people consider like traditional like avenues of exploration when it comes to pleasure. You could just see the eyes of like her family they're like bringing this like submissive into our hospital room or how it was being talked about or going to a sex party like all of these ways that it's like yeah for sure get yours, but only get yours in a way that we have deemed accessible and maybe a little daring but not too daring.
Sara Bybee Fisk 15:44
It really speaks to who gets to have sex, who gets to have sexual pleasure, right? Do sick bodies get to have sexual pleasure? Do bodies that look different, that have different capabilities and capacities? There is such a narrative about who gets to have what type of sex based on what is going on with their body either health-wise or what it looks like or who desires it and who doesn't? That's a big part of it.
Danielle Savory 16:15
Yeah. And I even noticed myself even being, you know, a lifelong learner and person of this work, questioning some of it too. Like, why does this one feel uncomfortable and this one doesn't, right? Like, especially with her husband, I was like, yeah, go get out of there, get your thing, like, all wrong, right? But then when her best friend, like, threw this incredible party for her, I was like, and you're gonna go on like this other day. I was like, that's kind of shitty, you know, like, and why do I think it's shitty? And I still kind of landed on like, I still thought it was shitty, but in a way that felt like there is still nuance. And there is like these certain conversations and like, where, where does it still like fit into like my social okay's or what I think is okay and acceptable and also questioning like, I'm still not sure if like, that is coming from the people pleaser and me or that's coming in like, but your friend really is doing a lot for you and she loves you. And that could be true intimacy in that moment versus like a quick dopamine hit of going on this date, you know, so I do think that there was so much and I love that it brought that kind of like, you know, self-inquiry into my own mind.
Sara Bybee Fisk 17:36
Yeah, and I love that the show just let us experience that and grapple with it and didn't make it clean and pretty like she chose her friend in that moment, which I think a lot of people watching it, I think I had the same reaction you did, like, oh, but she bought you the dresses and then the hats and then you're just gonna leave her.Yeah.And I love that we just get to be left with that feeling because that's our judgment of it. And Molly is so singly focused on this goal of hers to have an orgasm with another person that she knows, I think, that her friendship can handle that and that it will recover because again, kind of coming back around to the characters who really tell her the truth in a lot of different ways, right? There's medical professionals who are really truthful with her in such beautiful ways. But what, let's dive into the friend for a little bit.I forget her name. Do you remember her name?
Danielle Savory 18:38
I don't remember her name but yeah I mean the friend oh my gosh I just loved her so much and I loved how she was also unapologetic and explaining. You know her best friend's desires like okay I'm here I'm with you like you wanna leave your husband you wanna go get your like let's do this you know even though like she was you know showed up fully in support like let's do this without. Maybe fully realizing like what that meant but the way she also just like stood kept standing up for her friend with this pursuit and supporting her you know, whether it was to her boyfriend or I think it was her sister or to the doctor in the room like it was like I am here and I am your advocate and I also love not just that she was such an advocate and right there with her but she created such a safe space for her friend. Friend to have this desire to be able to express it to share with her how it was going to share with her what was going on and I think that still
in this society we really have a hard time doing that with our friends you know like this is still so taboo in so many ways that even with your friends like you're not necessarily going to be like I'm having horrible sex. Or like when she first told her best friend she had never had an orgasm with her husband you know like these kind of things because they feel so shameful let alone the desires feeling shameful like the reality of certain situations feel really shameful we barely even wanna say that sentence to ourselves because what we make it mean let alone having conversations with people we trust and not saying you need to be having friends that you talk to about everything but like having open conversations with somebody like about this that allows you to actually see it.
Sara Bybee Fisk 20:40
That also just kind of points back to this idea that the biggest relationship, the most important relationship should be to our partner, that they complete us, that they should know everything about us, that they know how to meet all our needs. And if they don't, there's something wrong. But I think Nikki, I remember her name, Nikki, the beauty of her being in the way she is in Molly's life is that she is able to just hold the truth of who Molly is and what is happening to her without the judgment that comes at her from so many, so many different people in that show. And she just can witness and hold it. And she offers her something that that most important relationship, her husband, couldn't offer her.
Danielle Savory 21:28
Yes, yes, like the nonjudgment, there is such a big piece because I think even when it comes to close friends, that's not a guarantee either. Like there's very few spaces where it really can.I mean, you and I are both coaches, right? And so it's kind of our job to hold space for like non-judgmental, you know, like observation, awareness, like curiosity. But outside of like the professional realm, not very many people have somebody they can trust to open up to to feel safe in their nervous system with and to not automatically feel like they're going to be judged for what they share.
Sara Bybee Fisk 22:06
That's such a good point. And so if you're listening to this, and you're thinking about, you know, do I have a friend that I could begin to talk about this with? Maybe you do. So Danielle, if someone is listening and wondering, like, do I have a friend, like Nikki, do I have someone who could witness or help me better understand myself without judgment? How might they open up that conversation?
Danielle Savory 22:35
Yeah, well, I think it's the first thing is we just want to take a moment to meet ourselves, because I know that if I were to ask myself that question or realize I didn't have a person like that in my life, my immediate place would be my brain's default is like self-rejection, right? Like, I can't believe I don't have somebody in my life like that. And before, for any of you listening that are like me that that's the first place you go like, there I am again doing it wrong, or I don't even have or like this place of like, laughter, lack or self defecation is to start with like, like, of course, like, it's okay, like, like, I see you. Now you've just identified something you want, like every time we notice there might be this thing that we don't have, like, instead of just thinking, oh, it's I don't have, it's like, oh, my gosh, like, that does like, okay, like that, that might hurt a little bit, like, it makes sense. And now you know, you want to have that kind of relationship with somebody. Now you know, you want to like, open up to the universe to bring this person in, or for you to maybe start having conversation with somebody you already know and trust and then navigating whether or not they might be that person. And so coming back to like, whether or not they they are your person is you can ask, right, you can ask like, Hey, these are some things that I've really been exploring in my own mind. These are some things that are really interesting to me. Like, are you open to having conversation about this? Like, how would you feel if we talked about this, you know, and just asking kind of upfront is how I think that I would do that with one of my friends. The other thing that I have just gotten feedback on because I always have been very comfortable with this topic is you present your own comfortability, even if maybe you're not really that comfortable with it yet. Like, what are you comfortable and just being that person that owns it and says it because right then and there, like when I stopped started like making like, you know, these kind of funny jokes about like, I called them pity titties, like after I like breastfed, my boobs just started like falling into my armpits. I was like, you know what I'm talking about, like pity titties, like the amount of shock on a lot of women's face like, oh my god, like, are you really saying that? But then the other people they're like, yeah, and then they just started saying the same thing. I was like, you're my people. So if you're kind of like out there and daring like I am in these certain social situations, you can also kind of test the waters by, you know, first creating own safety, I've got my own back knowing how you're going to go home and your brain is going to be like, did you say too much?
Danielle Savory 25:21
Did you ostracize yourself? Like, are you that, you know, are you that person? And be like, no matter what, this is what I'm still going to believe about myself. But you can practice, especially in other New York situations where people are around just going outside of like the normal topics, like being a little bit of an overshare, sharing a couple of things, and then seeing how it lands, because right away, you'll kind of get a feel of
somebody like leaning in or joking or giving you a look or like the energy will be there. It's like, I could probably talk to them more about this. Yes.
Sara Bybee Fisk 25:55
Yes, the times when I have spoken up almost universally, it's been like, oh my god, me too, right? Oh, you know, I am wondering the same thing. I have some questions too. And especially among, you know, friendships where there is some existing emotional connection, right? Yeah, there's there's some existing infrastructure where you have been sharing and talking about your lives. I think that's a really great place to open up this conversation because here is what I know. We have been kind of tricked into really siloed lives, right? It's like me in my house with my family, my husband, and we need other women. We need their stories. We need their experiences. We need their wisdom. We need their mistakes, their vulnerability, their words. In a way that I don't think I fully appreciated until very recently. Like, I love I have so many good men in my life. And there are very few men that I allow now to teach me anything or talk to me. I'm done with men telling me things, right? Because that's been my whole life. I want women's voices. And Nikki is one of those I just the beautiful way that she just opens her whole life up and in some ways I was like, girl, are you like destroying your own life for Molly? And she's like, yes, I am. And I love her. I can't not do it. And so everybody gets to watch and kind of make their own judgments about the dynamics in that relationship. But what I know is that we need the voices of other women and we heal best in settings with other women. So many of the wounds that we don't even know are there. And so I just love this aspect of our conversation.
Danielle Savory 27:55
Yeah, yeah. And I love that you're saying that about like, the women because I think it is being witnessed in it. But then also, it's just that, you know, I've always seen this like in my group coaching programs, or like my workshops that I do where it's like multiple women is the minute a woman asks a question, or the minute she shares something, you feel like a collective sigh of relief for like, like actually see their shoulders drop away from their ears. Because in that moment, what you're witnessing is actually a test of self- compassion is actually like this beautiful moment of un, you know, prescribed self- compassion, because that is a moment a woman realizes she's not alone. And being like seen it through somebody else's story through their question through their sharing, and that all of a sudden for the first time, you're like, wait, it's not just me, or I'm not broken. It's such this like visceral sigh of relief, and like this safety to your nervous system, that really does give you permission to continue to explore like these conversations. But I think that really does happen so much in community and, you know, historically speaking, in so many different ways, that we just don't experience as much now, you know, not to say that a lot of the gatherings in the 50s were definitely not without
judgment. But there was still like these like regular gatherings, like my my Grammy used to get together and play bridge all the time. She was part of like a quilt club, you know, I mean, I still do think we have like book clubs and that kind of thing. But these actual purposeful like gatherings where even though you might be like stitching, you are sharing or something comes up or like a piece of advice like these, like containers that allow us to witness one another, learn from one another and then walk away usually with a little bit of self-compassion.
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:01
Yeah, so important. One of the things that really struck me was the grief that Molly felt around never having had an orgasm with another person. Yes, orgasms are fraught things for many women because of our programming about how they're supposed to happen, what they're supposed to look like, what you're supposed to do to get one, what's wrong with you if you don't have one. What are your thoughts there?
Danielle Savory 30:31
I mean, I have so many we could talk about this for like six hours, but really I do think that the main thing comes back to judgment, you know, judgment, like you said of how it's supposed to look, what is okay, what isn't okay, and a willingness to move into discomfort, like that's the other really big part, you know, one of the things that I noticed even in myself and also in my clients is what I call it's a first thought, right? It's like that first like default thought you have in response to something and usually most of us see that first thought and it's truth, right? It's like if your partner brings something up and maybe you feel like it feels like outside of your comfort zone normally and your first thought is like, yuck, like why do they want that or like really that's what you want or like this immediate judgment or that creates this stuckness and creates us actually from pursuing these further because we assume that first thought that comes from our subconscious mind, our default thinking that has been wired and programmed in is like our instinct or likely like what we actually want versus it just being like, oh no, this is just the programmed response. And so I think when it comes to like, that's where the judgment usually happens. And so it doesn't create a safe space for us to even question, for us to even explore further because usually we shut down so many of like our desires or what we want with immediate, like what we've been told is okay or what we've been told it should look like and then we make it about us and not on top of that, the nervous system response really makes it hard to move past this place of feeling triggered in your body to being curious and this potential for pleasure. So understanding kind of like the mechanisms at play, I think are so important because we can see them, right? Like you can see, like I can see in my brain throws out a first thought and I'm like, okay, that's my first thought. But what is my intention? Like what do I actually think? And then noticing how often that first thought already triggers my nervous system. So if I am going to get
further, even if it's just a place of self-inquiry, or if it's like physically, I'm going to explore something like knowing how to again, collaborate with your body and your nervous system to create enough safety so that you're willing and this doesn't mean that you just are totally relaxed. I think that's the other thing a lot of people misunderstand about when it comes to going after sexual desire. Like a lot of times you are going to feel a little bit activated. That isn't a bad thing because we want a little bit of that activation because that is the thing that creates the butterflies. That's the thing that creates more arousal. Like that actually could be the thing that turns you on and it doesn't have to be a complete shutdown. That was kind of a roundabout answer, but I think I got to what you were asking.
Sara Bybee Fisk 33:37
Yeah. And I love that the show let us see that, right? Her activation, her nervousness. And just the idea of first thoughts, I think that's so brilliant, because we aren't even responsible for a lot of those first thoughts, right? They were taught to us, right? I, you know, Mormonism, the religious background that I come from, it's a whole lot of don'ts. There's do not, don't even think about it. You're bad if you're thinking about this, you know, shame and repression. And then all of a sudden you get married and now it's okay. But it's only okay up to a certain point, only certain things are okay. So those first thoughts aren't even yours all the time. And I kind of the metaphor that I have for me right now in this area of sexual exploration in my own life is I have a box, this metaphorical box of all these things that I was told, no, never don't even think about it. And I'm taking the box out and I'm just putting everything on the table. And I'm just looking at it from a place of curiosity and neutrality. It's not good or bad. Like I let somebody else tell me this was good. That's bad. This is good. That's bad. That person is gone, right? All the men are gone. And if something's going to be off the table, I want to take it off for reasons that I like, for reasons that make sense for me, for my relationship with my husband, but I'm not going to let someone else tell me that that's good or bad. But that doesn't mean that the first thoughts aren't still there. Right? When I'm looking at the contents of my box, right?
Danielle Savory 35:25
No pun intended. No pun intended.
Sara Bybee Fisk 35:28
I didn't even get to that. Thank you. Thank you, sex coach, Danielle.
Danielle Savory 35:32
you're welcome. You can count on me for those sexual innuendo jokes. You know, like the other thing I love that you're like, we can just assume the other metaphor that I love to work with, and this is really helpful when it comes to first thoughts, is imagining yourself at a bus station and you didn't, you know, like bus number five takes you to like the part of town that you don't like, like you don't feel good there, it shuts you down, you feel kind of like on edge, all of this sort of thing, and like you've gone on bus five enough that you're like, this doesn't ever take me to where I want to go, but you're like, but bus 25 does, and you're standing at a bus station because what happens at bus stations? Buses come and bus five shows up and you're just pissed. You're like, why is bus five here again? Like bus five shouldn't be here. I decided I didn't even want bus five, and it's like, no, we can just assume bus five, bus four, bus three, bus two, bus one, the one that you first bust on when you were a kid is always going to come through the bus station. We don't need to make it a big deal. We just remember like, oh, of course it is. Like there's that bus. I am at a bus station. It's like, that's my brain. Of course it's going to come up. Of course these thoughts are going to come up, and I'm practicing remembering what bus I am wanting to get on because that is the one that takes me to my destination. And then also having grace, like sometimes you're like scrolling your phone. You're not paying attention. You get on bus five. You're wondering why it stinks. Your legs are sticking to the seat. Like everything's uncomfortable, and you're like, oh shit, it's because I'm on bus five again. Ding, ding, ding. Just get off the bus. Go to the station and wait for bus 25 again.
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:20
Love, love. Molly's exploration is pretty radical, right? And it's, it's driven by her timeline, right? The mortality aspect of the show. And I know that there are a lot of women, I talk to them, they're my clients, they're my friends, who are wondering, is this it for sex for me? Like sex, sex isn't like bad or terrible necessarily, maybe in some cases it is. But what if I want something more? And I'm not necessarily dealing with the mortality timeline that Molly was, but what does a sexual relationship with yourself look like? And a lot of women listening to this, my clients, your clients, you know, women who are interested in a greater degree of self-knowledge, right? Maybe beyond masturbation or just knowing what their, you know, sexual desires are. Where do they begin? Molly's exploration was pretty radical, right? With her mortality timeline. And I can understand a lot of people not being comfortable already for that and not needing to because they're not dying of cancer. But we all are dying, right? But just I'm interested in your thoughts there.
Danielle Savory 38:41
Yeah, you know, and I've asked myself this question, and I will continue to ask it. And for me, one of the places that I think is just really healthy to start is reading, like reading, like actually kind of like what's out there. And I don't mean like reading and just finding out like, Oh, you could use a butt plug, or there's these kind of vibrators, like, great, do that. But I have found just fun, even in romance novels, or smut, or, you know, audios, like audio, erotic audio, like erotica.
Sara Bybee Fisk 39:23
is one app that's been recommended to me by Maggie and Melissa you know who they are yes
Danielle Savory 39:30
Yes. So, you know, listening to this kind of stuff, you'll start to notice like, oh, that gives me a little bit of tingles, or I kind of like that, or maybe like you don't like that, right? You know, so even just exposing yourself, and I personally have found it to be more beneficial when I explore this when it is in story, where I have some identification maybe with like the character or something like that versus just like, oh, there's this act you can do, or you could do this position like that, to me, doesn't really give me much insight of like, that sounds hot, or that feels good, because you're just looking at it more from this like mechanical sort of view. So for me, like seeing context does help and seeing or hearing context, reading context has kind of helped. But the thing that has even resonated with me more than the acts and the acts might come is the tone. So I like to think of like, the tone of an experience that I'm wanting to have, knowing that if you start to pursue a particular tone, and there might be more than one tone, right? Like, there are certain times in my cycle where I might want more like wild or like raw or like animalistic or like, kind of like a dominating sort of tone or a submissive sort of tone. And then there might be other times where emotionally, I feel a little bit more vulnerable and tender, and it's more like a tone of romance or just like care and appreciation, you know, so I think more than just exploring what's out there as far as toys, acts, things to do is start to feel like, as I'm listening to these stories, like, what is the tone of it? What is kind of like the ambiance of this experience and trusting that if you lean into, I want it to feel more like this, that can help a conversation with yourself and also with your partner about maybe it's just how you're acting, who you're being, what you're thinking about, but there also could be some things that you want to bring in that kind of color and like fill out that experience a little bit more.
Sara Bybee Fisk 41:59
I love that idea of tone. That's such a really interesting way to look at that. I also know that there are people who are listening who are gonna be like, okay, so I can listen to some smut, check, check. I know the tone, but to ask is so vulnerable. Like, how do I build the structure around being able to ask for something? Because one of the scenes that was so poignant to me that I really identified with, Molly is tied up in the back of, what is it, pottery barn? We don't even know. And so the character who's playing the Dom wants her to ask for something, and she just is struggling. And I think in that scene, it's because she doesn't know yet what she wants, but she finally gets out like one little thing that she wants. But I also have experience and think just the vulnerability of asking for something with all of that social programming about, be a woman who is desirable, but don't have this wild desire of your own. What are your thoughts about that?
Danielle Savory 43:10
Yeah, I think number one is just acknowledging that, right? How vulnerable, aka scary. Yeah, it actually is. And starting there, like, Oh, like, of course, this is scary. Like, of course, this makes you nervous. You know, of course, your heart is like pitter pattering. Like, this is kind of like uncharted territory. You haven't had this represented. Like, that's the other thing to really understand is like, we haven't actually seen representation of very many women asking for what they want, especially in the vulnerable context of sexuality and pleasure. And so that acknowledgement alone offers such a, you know, a balm to your nervous system to just kind of calm down and make it not something you're doing wrong, but also making the fear not wrong, that this is something that is a little bit scary. And how can I meet myself? And sometimes, that is a lot of the work before you even ask. And then the other thing that I have, you know, worked with my clients is first, like, starting to identify on your own, and noticing the moments you do want to ask, and you don't, and starting to see, like, why didn't I just without judgment again, and just this curiosity, like, what was I afraid of in that moment? Because sometimes it's, you know, I mean, usually in vulnerability, it's like a fear of rejection, we're afraid that the thing that we want to do is going to be rejected, the idea that we have might be yucked, that we are going to feel ostracized, that it's going to create distance between our partner and ourselves, that they're not going to like us that they're going to think we're dirty or wrong for asking. And so when you start to identify those, then you really can see the holes that need to be met, and the healing, and the safety that you need to create around those beliefs or those fears that you've identified. And I also like to just make it, instead of just being like, I'm going to just say what I want, you can also bring in a collaborative conversation. And I would recommend because we're already vulnerable, and we're naked, and we're doing it, you know, so maybe not during, but another time, like, hey, like, and just be honest, like, this makes me a little nervous. But like, I'd love to have a conversation about sex, like, when would be a good time? Or I want to just, you know, I'm thinking more about this, like, as we continue into this next chapter of our life, and then having a kind of conversation where you're like, you know, ask, ask both of you, like, what is something you've always wanted to try, you know, or what is something
you've always fantasized about, like, and be clear, because it's also might be hard for you to hear something that your partner is bringing up. And so allowing like both of it, like, this is safe, but we can just bring like one thing up, or one thing that we've thought about.
Danielle Savory 46:10
And that can start to just kind of get the ball rolling. But I think more important than anything is like, how can I create safety with myself? How can I create a strategy? Like if your fear is like, they're gonna say blah, blah, blah, like, create a strategy ahead of time of how you're going to meet yourself and be on your own side, no matter what. That for me has helped so much with these kind of conversations is because you want to just like, have them respond great, right? Of course, we all do, but we don't know. And so that's what vulnerability is, you don't know. And so really, like having a strategy, how am I going to create safety ahead of time, creating safety in the conversation, and then a strategy for afterwards, how will you what are you going to say to yourself? Not like, See, I told you, you shouldn't have said that. Now you're abandoning you again, right? That's why I think that this is such a practice of like true self intimacy. Because not only are you being vulnerable with somebody else, you're being vulnerable and honest with yourself, but you have to have that back end part of like, I am going to be there for you no matter what.
Sara Bybee Fisk 47:17
I love that. And I'll just put in a plug, my never-ending crusade to have women check their hormones and see if HRT hormone replacement therapy is something you also have to have the hormonal support to be able to enjoy and explore. And I think again, you know, kind of circling back to programming, we have such stories about how our sexuality is supposed to just kind of wane and go away as we get older. But I know so many women in perimenopause and menopause are having the best sex of their lives, because they have created this kind of not just safety structure, and vulnerability structure, but they also are getting the health support that they need. And that's something you talked about with your doctor, right? To be able to really enjoy pleasure well into, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s. And God, that's what I want.
Danielle Savory 48:18
Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to say this caveat because I hear, you know, from being out there, it's like all of us naturally, this isn't judgment on anybody, want a quick fix. And from working with so many clients going through perimenopause and menopause and witnessing their journey with pleasure, the hormones, knowing like that they can help,
right, but like, that doesn't cure your programming. Like, right? Yeah. And so that like, this is like one piece of the puzzle. Because if you've never brought up to the surface, why am I resisting pleasure? If you've never brought up to the surface, like why am I not feeling connection with my husband? Why you don't feel safe being vulnerable? Why you've never explored your own desires? I don't care how much HRT you do, you're still going to come up short. And that is something that's not being said in this hormone conversation that I really want to make an important point of because I've seen so many women hoping like this is it, this is going to fix my libido and not that it can't make a difference. It can I have like experienced it on my own. But I've also done a lot of like this work where it was like, it wasn't bad before. Like that's the thing is we're like, Yeah, I want that it must be my hormones. But if you look even before you are in perimenopause, like, you probably weren't exploring pleasure or exploring your desires, or even what you knew ahead of time hormones doesn't do that. And I see so many women really, like, like doubling down on the belief, I am broken because now they've gone to the hormone replacement therapy and things still aren't shifting the way that they want. And that's because there's this subconscious stuff, there's our nervous system work, there's communication that needs to happen with yourself and your partner still in order to actually pursue pleasure.
Sara Bybee Fisk 50:11
That is such a great point. Thank you for making that. Hormones will not do that work for you.
Danielle Savory 50:16
Yes. They're great. They can really help in so many things. I am 100% with you. Every single woman should go and take a look at this. It's not the only thing. Diet isn't the only thing to feel healthy and fit. There's so many other elements.
Sara Bybee Fisk 50:33
I love this conversation. Is there anything that you haven't gotten to say that you really wanted to make sure you put into words? I mean, I know we could talk for another six hours.
Danielle Savory 50:45
The only thing that I think that I just want to come back to that we briefly mentioned and just kind of like a takeaway is the thing that you're going to see in this show over and
over and over is the struggle for her to be able to orgasm with somebody else versus just with herself, right? And I just want to like normalize it in the way that like, if that's you, and that's what you're experiencing, like, you're not broken again, like coming back to like, that's totally understandable, and it's okay. And it is because we have created enough safety for ourselves to explore our pleasure and our desire. And we don't have to be as vulnerable when it's just with ourselves, where that piece of vulnerability and intimacy does come into play with another person. And so if that is you, and you're listening to this, like, welcome to the club totally normal. And this is where we get to, you know, have the opportunity to kind of move into the more challenging side of things sometimes, which is being vulnerable and moving through that discomfort and creating the safety of that vulnerability.
Sara Bybee Fisk 51:57
Thank you, Danielle. That was right on. I'm so grateful for you and for the conversations we have had that have been really important for me. If people want to find you, find out more about your work and what you do, where should they go?
Danielle Savory 52:11
Yeah, you can go to my website daniellesavory.com. I'm on instagram at danielle.savory. I'm trying to start on TikTok. I don't even know my handle. You can probably just put in my name and you'll recognize me. And then other than that, even though I'm not currently recording new episodes, it's my pleasure is a 200 episode library of like, pure knowledge about all of this stuff when it comes to sexuality pleasure. And so many of our obstacles.
Sara Bybee Fisk 52:44
Thanks again. Love you, friend. You too.
Danielle Savory 52:47 Thanks for having me.
