THE EX-GOOD GIRL PODCAST

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Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:00

Jenny Hobbs is on the podcast today and I'm so excited because, oh my gosh, this perimenopause ADHD roller coaster that I've been on, that so many of my clients have been on is just such a trip and there's like not like stop the ride I want to get off. There's not that option at this point yet. So I'm really, really glad, Jenny, that you agreed to have this conversation because not only are you a physician and a mom and someone who has ADHD, but this is a population you work with. So I'm so glad you're here.

Jenny Hobbs 01:30

Me too. This is one of my favorite topics. I can talk about it for hours. So I will try to pull myself back. But yes, I'm Jenny Hobbs. I am a doctor. I work as a hospital based doctor, actually what's called a nocturness. So I only work nights in the hospital. It's kind of a funny job title. And I also am a certified life coach. And I work with working moms who have neurodivergent families. So I love working with moms who either have ADHD or autism themselves, or maybe their kids or their spouse has ADHD or autism. And I find that these women, which I can relate to, because I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and I have two kids who have autism and ADHD, these moms who are like me are often really burned out and exhausted and overwhelmed. And parenting and marriage is really uniquely different when you have neurodivergence in yourself or your family members. So, I work as a life coach with those women as well as doing my nights in the hospital. And I am based in Seattle, Washington. I have two kids who are now eight and a half and 11, which is crazy. And I've been married for 20 years. My husband is a stay-at-home dad. That's actually another type of woman that I often work with is women who are the primary earner and their husband is staying at home with the kids, which is also a unique dynamic, but one that works really well for our family. So that's neat.

Sara Bybee Fisk 02:54

Why is everything changing? Why is it like? I mean, one of the questions that I've kind of had about myself is, did I always have ADHD and just not know it? Was I able to just cope in different ways? Like, why is it so late in life that so many of us are finding this out? Either ADHD or autism or AU, ADHD, is that the term? Let's tell me that term. So we get it right.

Jenny Hobbs 03:25

Yeah, I think they've started calling it odd DHD now. So autism and ADHD. So they're two separate diagnoses. But there does tend to be some overlap.And also kind of a lot of overlap in family like tends to be we call them neuro divergent people. So people with autism ADHD, and a few other less common disorders, neuro divergent people, whether it's autism or ADHD, they tend to kind of flock together to find each other. And they also are very genetic. So some of us we kind of say we have an odd DHD family, right? So a lot of overlap.

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:02

Do we know why there is so much overlap between autism and ADHD?

Jenny Hobbs 04:08

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. There's a woman, we can put some of the show notes, there's a woman, Megan Anna Neff is her name. And she is a neuropsychologist who was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. And she has talked about how when you look at the genes, there actually do seem to be some like in your genetic material, autism and ADHD do seem to be sort of like associated near one another. So, they do think there is some genetic basis for that. I don't know the details of it. But I think it makes a lot of sense based on what we see when we actually, you know, look at groups of families and things like that.

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:43

One of the reasons that I wanted to have this conversation is I find a lot of relevance to like, you know, I come at this from like the good girl paradigm, like trying to break out of patterns that keep us, you know, small and not asking for what we need. And, and I have a couple of, you know, points of view on that, but I'm wondering for you and what you see in just, you know, your client population and in maybe just your patient population, why do you, what do you think is the relevance of the way we were programmed to be good girls and how our autism or ADHD or both manifest?

Jenny Hobbs 05:21

Oh, yeah, it's so interesting. So when you think about neurodivergent types, so autism, ADHD, those are patterns and ways of interacting with the world that are different from sort of the standard middle norm, right? If you think of us all on a continuum, they kind of fall further to the edges of that continuum, right? And I think, as you and I've talked about before, what is normal is a good question. So there is definitely, you know, a wide range. But when we do studies of certain traits, people who have autism and or ADHD can kind of fall further on those edges. So when you're a child, right, and you're interacting with the world differently, but you're told that a good girl does this, a good girl sits quietly, a good girl listens, a good girl always has her homework turned in one time, right? All these things, a good girl doesn't ever get too angry or have to, you know, let her emotions get the best of her, all those things can be harder to do when you are a person who is not sort of in the middle part of that continuum, right? And so if you have ADHD or autism, both of those disorders are really like disorder is a question really, right? Both of those neurotypes have a harder time managing their emotion, right? So their executive functions, the frontal part of their brain that says, okay, we need to be quiet now, we need to listen, we need to get organized, those executive functions are not as well developed when you have ADHD or autism, right? So now if you're in a world, a society that wants you to be a good girl, and a good girl is defined as being organized and calm and quiet and all of those things, that's gonna be so much harder to do, just if you're naturally wired a little bit differently. I like that language, some people use you're just differently wired. And so it's gonna be that much more challenging to fit into the good girl paradigm.

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:12

I look back on how many masking or techniques or little shortcuts that I had created for myself that were so important in keeping me on track, keeping me organized, keeping me performing and doing what I want. Funny story, I actually had to get a new phone and I didn't do the backup right, so it didn't restore all of my 500 alarms that I had already programmed into my phone, so I got my new phone. I didn't have any alarms. I used to set alarms constantly for myself to keep myself on track, and I was so devastated that I had to go back and redo all my alarms. What do you see in your adult women in terms of those type of techniques or masking or just like all the ways that they try to make themselves conform to what is expected of them?

Jenny Hobbs 08:07

Oh, yeah, it is so interesting. And I think this is one reason it is so difficult to diagnose ADHD. I had the most experience with ADHD. I think it's one of the reasons it's so difficult to diagnose in women is because many of us have gotten so good at compensating for our natural difficulty, right? And I say when I was diagnosed, I remember the person doing the evaluation asked me a question like, do you have to keep, you know, your keys and whatever in like the exact same place where you lose them? And I was like, I mean, doesn't everyone have to do that? That's like just good sense, right? And I have like a million strategies like this, timers and planners. I think if you look at people who are, like, really obsessed with planners and organizing and their schedule, right, and to-do list and checking them off a lot of times, those are strategies someone who's wired with ADHD has developed because they know if they don't, they will forget and the consequences of forgetting have often been really severe, right? You know, problems in school, problems with your parents. And so if you are raised with this idea that like a good girl always does everything on time and pays her taxes, then, you know, all these things and checks off all the boxes, right? And it's hard for you to do, you're gonna be that much more rigidly clinging to those external systems, right? And it's harder to let go of them. And so what's really interesting is that a great example would be being on time, I would say the average person who has ADHD has a hard time getting to places, you know, right on time. But some people have been so strictly taught that it is a moral failing to be late, right? So if you have ADHD wiring, you don't know it, and your family teaches you that like, only horrible people are ever late, right? And they always make you get everywhere early, you might actually be extra early everywhere all the time, because you've like overcompensated. Does that make sense? And you might be actually more anxious than another person about making sure because maybe you're, you know, you're gonna forget all these things. And it's so much harder for you to get it together. And so it adds to what you see is a lot of anxiety and overcompensating. And sometimes that can really mask the symptom of ADHD that you would otherwise see. Does that make sense? And each person has such different strategy that can be hard to take out.

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:24

I'm thinking of a friend who meets that description perfectly, right? It's literally a moral failing. She was really punished, you know, for being late, told how inconsiderate she was. And so she's early everywhere, but always has this anxiety when there's time to go. And so if she's filling out, you know, a signs, signs of ADHD symptom, you know, form, she's not going to check chronically late.

Jenny Hobbs 10:47

because she's not. Exactly, yeah. And I think they've done, this is one of the really interesting things. There are some people who've done a lot of work on diagnosing ADHD in adults because it really presents differently than in children. And so there are actually some lists of symptoms that are more helpful and useful for diagnosis in adults. And so I think it does include being chronically late, but it also includes some other things, right? And you don't have to have all of the things. So that's not, for example, the only thing. And another example of this would be many people with ADHD, they may not be chronically late, but they may have this experience that if they have an appointment at two o'clock, right? They're not quite sure how long everything's gonna take before they get there, right? And so they may feel like they kinda are like sitting around all day having difficulty planning and organizing and doing anything because of this looming appointment that they don't wanna be late for. And so if you think about that, it actually kinda touches more on what ADHD is really about, which is like difficulty planning and organizing and structuring without getting really overwhelmed. Does that make sense? So it's less about whether you're on time or not and more about how difficult it is for you to manage the flow of your day because of that difficulty with time.

Sara Bybee Fisk 12:06

It makes so much sense. I read this somewhere and I just, it almost, well, it did make me tear up because it's like, that's me. It's like for me in time, there's either right now or everything in the future. I just have a really hard time like judging. It's like if I have 15 minutes, I literally think I have time to make myself a sandwich, go brush my hair, clean out my purse before I go to the doctor, download the podcast that I want it. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, damn it. I have to be there in two minutes, and it's a 15-minute drive. There's really something that's been frustrating. And I think the sad things, or if you're listening to this and you're like, ah, I really feel that I think the saddest thing that I see, and I'm sure you do too as well, is that what happens is a constant inner monologue of criticism and judgment and self-doubt where the inability of this prefrontal cortex executive function to happen the way it should become something that is wrong with us. So not only are we now late, but we're beating ourselves up for the 15-minute drive, apologizing profusely when we get there, feeling shame, feeling, you know, scared or anxious. It's not just the executive dysfunction. It's all of the criticism and the judgment that a lot of us live with as well when this isn't going the way it should go.

Jenny Hobbs 13:33

And there's so many interesting things with this. One is that, you know, obviously pretty much all humans and particularly more women and people of color and things like that grow up with a lot of negative messaging, right? And that inner critic, that's where that voice comes from. But when you have ADHD, right, studies show you get a lot more negative messaging than another child, right? And so it does build up, and you have more and more of that over time and more and more of that to overcome. And if you're a woman, you're less likely to get diagnosed as a child. And so to your point, you don't have an explanation. And another thing that Megan Anna Neff says, it's just so great is when you don't have an accurate narrative for what's going on, you will revert to a personal narrative. And I might've got that quote slightly wrong, but you will revert to a narrative that like something is wrong with me if you don't have an accurate explanation, right? And so like you said, that's the experience of so many women who get diagnosed as an adult is literally tearing up because you're like, oh, this makes sense. And you feel seen and you have that accurate narrative and it's really amazing how powerful that is.

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:45

It is. So, we've talked a lot about time specifically. What are some other signs and symptoms that adult women who are wondering, you know, could this be me, be looking for?

Jenny Hobbs 14:58

Great question. So one of the things that's interesting about ADHD is that our understanding of it has changed a lot over the past 30 to 40 years. And even the diagnostic criteria that we use and the picture that we have in our minds is not really fully up to date. Okay, so I'll just kind of fast-forward to the current understanding. And the current understanding of ADHD is, as I mentioned, this executive function disorder, but it's also related strongly to dopamine, right? So your dopamine is like your pleasure reward center chemical, right? So you don't have enough of that. And so basically, you are a person who is kind of more likely to need dopamine to be effective, right? So you're going to need something that's exciting or interesting or challenging. So you might wait till the last minute till you have a deadline, we talked about time, you also might be a person who can be really motivated and really awesome at one thing because you think it's interesting. But if you think something's not interesting, you can't motivate yourself to do it at all. Right? So very, you'll notice inconsistency. Another big thing that comes up a big hallmark of ADHD is emotional dysregulation. And this is- honestly I maybe should have just led with this because emotional dysregulation is one of the core consistent features that is seen in people with ADHD throughout their life. And it's not in our diagnostic criteria. So I cannot tell you how many people I know whose kids seem to have these like really big emotions and all this stuff. And they think it's a behavioral issue. And often, it's actually undiagnosed ADHD. But because they don't picture, they don't look like that picture of like a hyperactive kid, but maybe they're just like a big emotions kid, it's not recognized very easily. So for adult women, do you have a hard time in relationships? Do you have a hard time getting really angry? Do you have big mood swings? Do you, this is an interesting one, do you have trouble getting a lot of traffic tickets? This is one that was for me really interesting. It's one of the main nine criteria for adults is speeding a lot. And I had no idea about that. And after I got diagnosed, I started remembering all like the times I've been speeding and getting tickets and all this crazy stuff, the traffic issues, workplace issues, difficulty keeping a job, difficulty, maybe in your marriage or other relationships, inconsistency, I think I mentioned that. But you know, like, people might think, Oh, you're like, you're just lazy, because you can do things when you want to, if you like it, and you can't do it if you don't like it. But that's actually a big part of ADHD is it's your inconsistent, you're when you're interested, and you're excited, you're feeling great, you can do a lot of stuff. And then when you're not, you literally do nothing. So all or nothing, I think I could go on and on. But I think that maybe gives you a pretty good list.

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:47

Yeah. So, I know that I was diagnosed when I took my son to be diagnosed. He was having trouble in school and he had a lot of the more classic ADHD signs, not able to pay attention, you know, that you've mentioned. And we kind of touched on this in the beginning of the podcast, but what is the link between ADHD diagnoses and perimenopause?

Jenny Hobbs 18:13

So glad you mentioned that. And I was thinking about this earlier when you were talking about women who have ADHD and all their compensatory strategies that they have, right? And you notice like at the beginning, you said like, what's changing? All these things that we're working from, you aren't working anymore. So what happens is if you're a person with ADHD and you're a female, okay, you have added inconsistency because of your hormones, okay? So estrogen improves attention, and you need estrogen to access your working memory. So when you're trying to keep track of, like, organize your schedule for the day, what you need to get done before you get somewhere, all your kids' school stuff, family dinners, you know, you name it, right? As a mom, we got a lot of working memory. You're a working mom, your working memory is busy. You need estrogen to access that effectively and to maintain attention, okay? Obviously, in ADHD, those are the exact things you're already having trouble with, right? When you head into perimenopause, your estrogen levels start to slowly decline. So as a woman, even if you didn't have ADHD, you'd have more difficulty with attention and working memory and emotional regulation and all these things, just as part of your natural process of aging and going to perimenopause. But if you have ADHD, it's gonna be even more significant. And along with that, during your menstrual cycles, your amounts of estrogen are changing too, right? So, even from week to week or day to day, a woman might have different levels of symptoms. So this gets back to another reason why it's so hard to diagnose ADHD in women because, do you meet the criteria on one day and not another or one week and not another or at a different, you know, before puberty, after puberty? And I will say just the caveat is a lot of this, it's very difficult to study. And there is a lack of research on women and people of color when it comes to ADHD. Almost all of the studies we have were done on young white hyperactive boys. So a lot of this, we're just beginning to really unravel. But the take-home point, you know, I'm not an OBGYN, I'm an internal medicine doctor. So I always say like, I don't know a lot about this. What I know is that in menopause and perimenopause, your estrogen levels start to go down, right? And throughout your cycle, your estrogen levels change. And what that means is that your ADHD symptoms, if you have ADHD, are going to correlate with that, right? So there'll be worse in menopause and worse at parts of your cycle. And most likely women who don't have ADHD are seeing a bit of that too. The thing that's really interesting is that what we see is in your late 30s to early 40s, there is a spike in new diagnoses of ADHD among women. And it's kind of the perfect storm of all of these things coming together. So if you think about it, perhaps you had ADHD as a child, but your parents were super strict. You were pretty smart. You were a girl.

Jenny Hobbs 21:13

So it was naturally easier for you maybe to sit down in class and you were more affected by all these social expectations. So you were, you know, girls, little girls are such nice as badasses, right? You think you're like, I got a problem, I will solve it. I got my strategies. I got my planner. I got, you know, all my stuff. You did great. But then you got into your 20s and 30s. You had a couple of kids who most likely have some form of executive dysfunction because it's genetic, right? Maybe you married somebody who's got executive dysfunction because we lock together. Now you've got not only yourself to handle, but you also have two or three or four other people who need you to help them with their executive function, right? And you're hitting your 30s and 40s and your estrogen levels are dipping down, right? And so the way we say this is like the wheels come off. All of those strategies and things that seem to be working just fine and beautifully are not enough to overcome all of the added expectations of the added executive function you need to handle your life with less estrogen helping you out, right? And so there's this line of life. It's happened to me. It sounds like it happened to you. When everything falls apart, you don't know what's going on. And then many of those women who come into that situation are ultimately found to have ADHD and they had no idea.

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:37

Um, the wheels coming off is that's how it felt. It's like, I just couldn't, and it felt for me like almost from one day to the next, it felt pretty dramatic. Like all of a sudden I, yeah, I just couldn't juggle all the balls and was dropping them and I was overwhelmed emotionally, just feeling frazzled all the time. So, what I'm noticing is that we've touched on a couple of things that seem to keep women from getting accurately diagnosed. Like number one, the fact that we do come up with so many masking strategies and right, the wheels just haven't come off for them yet. They, they have all the alarms, they have the planners, they have all the, the ways that they kind of keep themselves on track and their symptoms are changing. Like some days they're like, oh, actually, no, I can remember things just fine. I, this isn't an issue for me. I want to add, and then I'm interested in just kind of what you would add to this list, I think there is a narrative for women about suffering, right? That it is just there, a certain amount of pain is what we're just supposed to deal with a certain amount of, you know, aging just means that things are going to shit and you just can't do anything to stop it. And so thanks patriarchy, because I think that the narrative that we have about what it means to be a woman aging also keeps women seeking and, and getting the help that they need, throw on top of that. It's selfish, it's self-centered to use time and resources for yourself when it's not like, quote, that big a deal. It's not cancer, right? It's not a lump in your breasts, which we would all, you know, go right down. I hope to everybody, you better be doing those breast checks where we would go right and get that taken care of. But I mean, the fact that I just can't remember words like I used to, it's not that bad and that's what aging is. What else do you think really keeps women from getting diagnosed the way they need to be?

Jenny Hobbs 24:34

I definitely think a lot of it is what you said, this idea that it's not that big of a deal. We definitely tend to downplay pain and difficulty. And like I said, we're bad assets. We're used to handling a lot. You know, what's that? There's that quote that's like, just because you carry it well doesn't mean it's not heavy, right? That I feel like that's like women, right? You know, so many of us women working moms, so you're carrying it all, you're doing it, and you're like, it's okay, I got this, I got this. I also think definitely putting others before ourselves. So many of us, you know, we will spend this time, I've talked to a lot of women who are, it's easier for them to pay for money for coaching and therapy and treatment for their children with ADHD. Yes, even if they know they have ADHD, they'll not want to invest in coaching for themselves for ADHD. And they'll say, you know, well, it's one of them even told me, I realized it's kind of funny that I would totally pay this money if it was coaching for my son, but I won't do it for me. Right? So that is definitely big. I think also, it is legitimately challenging to find a good provider who understands a little ADHD and how it presents and can give you a thoughtful valuation, it does take some time, you know, there can be a cost involved in that, you know, so I think there's just some practical considerations as well. And I think, I'm glad you brought up that concept of, you know, it's not breast cancer, or things like that. I think another reason people don't get diagnosed is this misconception that it's not a big deal. So it's quite interesting, actually, there's pretty good data that people with ADHD have a shorter lifespan. So, there's actually a mortality effect of ADHD over time. It's on average, right? It's associated with loss of income, because there's a lot of job loss, it can be associated with divorce, which is extremely expensive, right? It also can lead to some undiagnosed trauma and anxiety and secondary psychiatric disorders, which are, again, are, you know, have their own toll and their own costs. It's pretty impressive if you look at the studies of kids with ADHD, the number of them that don't get treated early on that then go on to have problems with substance use and other problems related to the impulsivity. So it actually is a big deal. It's actually a big health cost to this disorder. But I honestly think the vast majority of people, including many physicians, don't know that. And so I think that lack of information kind of makes people downplay it maybe more than we should sometimes.

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:57

All right, so let's talk about some things that can be done about it. And here's where I just want to recognize, you know, the privilege that is kind of inherent in this, because resources, financial resources, kind of open up a whole other category of, of solutions for you. So I'd love to talk about, you know, some resources that can be low cost or no cost, and then some that might have a cost involved.

Jenny Hobbs 27:24

I think that is a really good point. So I did mention there can definitely be a cost to some of the things that we do for this. Obviously ADHD is a well-recognized disorder, so evaluation and treatment, if you do have insurance or even on a number of the medical plans that are associated with state insurance and things like that, should be covered, at least to some degree. So there is that. So, there are ways to at least start the evaluation with your primary care provider. Certainly, if you have a primary care provider who is comfortable with adult ADHD or can refer you to someone that they know that's a great place to start. And part of the evaluation for ADHD does include checking for other things, like perimenopause and things like that, that can overlap with it. So that's a wonderful place to start. There are also really great free resources available. One book that I love is called Taking Charge of Adult ADHD by Russell Barkley. Wonderful book. It's really nice to have the physical copy like this, but I'll tell you, I listen to it on audio. So I literally got it from Libby, you know, if you have a library card, Libby, you can download it. I listened to the audio while I was driving to work and then I liked it enough and I do enough of this in my own work that I got the physical copy. So you can get that from the library. And this is a wonderful resource. And Russell Barkley also has a lot of YouTube videos available. He's one of the big names who has really worked hard to articulate the characteristics of adult ADHD versus kids. So look for his free resources. I will also I made a PDF download for just for you guys for this podcast. And so I will include in there a list of the nine characteristics that we look for for adult ADHD that's taken from his book and lots of links in there to podcasts and information that I have. That's free as well. But lots of good stuff. That's free. So here are the nine things that they found are more useful for diagnosing ADHD and adults. So specific to adults, not as much for kids. So, do you often easily get distracted by extraneous stimuli or irrelevant thoughts? Do you often make decisions impulsively? A lot of difficulty stopping activities or behavior when you should do so. Start a project or task without reading or listening to directions carefully. Fail to follow through on promises or commitments you make to others. Have trouble doing things in their proper order or sequence. As I'm listening to these, I'm thinking of so many examples. Drive much faster than others. Or if you don't drive, have difficulty engaging in leisure activities or doing fun things quietly. Have difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or recreational activities. Or have difficulty organizing tasks and activities. So you don't have to have all of those nine. So, this will be in the toolkit that I'm going to send you. And it's also in Dr. Barkley's book. But those are kind of the nine things. And if you have four to six of those things, then you might want to be thinking about ADHD. So it's interesting being on time is not on there.

Jenny Hobbs 30:28

Hyperactivity is another big one that we don't see as much in adults. Although I will add that one of the reasons girls often don't get diagnosed is because they tend to have more inattentive type and less hyperactive type. And when you are hyperactive, so I have hyperactive type, if you've noticed, it's verbal hyperactivity is how women and girls tend to present.

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:49

Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, if I have my like ADHD bingo card, I'm close to blackout.

Jenny Hobbs 30:57

It's really, so I think that when people say everyone has a little ADHD, you know, I think he talks about this in his book, but when they ask these questions of people with and without ADHD, it's a very, like, it's very clear who falls into that and who doesn't. And I think, you know, like, there's a lot of people I know who just don't have their, they don't understand why I have trouble with these things. So yeah.

Sara Bybee Fisk 31:18

Yeah, the verbal hyperactivity is really helpful for me to hear as well because I think that probably describes me and maybe some other people I know. So thank you for reading those.

Jenny Hobbs 31:28

Yeah. The other thing I like about his book is that it really drives home what it takes to get a good evaluation for ADHD. So what to look for in a provider, where to find someone, what questions they should be asking. And if you've been listening to this, sometimes people are kind of like, well, isn't everyone a little ADHD? And how do you know, he really breaks down, you know, it needs to be something that's present in these areas of life for this length of time, you know, from childhood. So you can really get a sense of it's not just like everyone who's a little distracted, has ADHD, but it really nicely illustrates all of that and even talks about, you know, if you get an evaluation, you don't agree with it, how to think about that. So there's lots of great books about ADHD out there. But I really like how fact-based this is in terms of the diagnostic piece. If you don't have the opportunity to get in to see someone, it's a really nice place to start thinking about for yourself. His book also has strategies for ADHD, which is great. And then that was the other thing I was going to say is that whether or not you actually get a formal diagnosis and start on medications and things like that, which all of which does cost some degree of money, many strategies for ADHD are free and helpful. So things like sleep, we know improving your sleep can improve ADHD symptoms by 30%. In some studies, exercise is probably second only to medication in terms of treating ADHD symptoms, doesn't have to be a ton, nutrition. And then, you know, this does cost some money, typically, but coaching is excellent for ADHD. That's obviously a big part of what I do. And there's tons of ADHD trained coaches available, also therapists who do kind of a mix of therapy and coaching. And one of the reasons I really wanted to bring that up, and one of the reasons I like being a coach for ADHD is that whether or not you go on medications or get a diagnosis, the strategies that help the most are a lot of what we've been talking about here. So just accepting that this is who you are, this is how you're wired, giving yourself that accurate narrative, and building the skills of trusting yourself, loving yourself, letting go of all these rules and expectations and restrictions, the inner critic, all of that work that Sara does, and her people pleasing and that I do, is really effective. And you don't necessarily need to go to a doctor and get on medication to start working on all of that. So sorry, that was a really long answer, Sara.

Sara Bybee Fisk 33:51

No, that was great. I just want to make sure also that we touch on for perimenopausal women that you can replace that estrogen, right? That is one of the most, I mean, there's a night and day difference that I feel and that women, my friends, feel when we have that estrogen on board in a way that can really be helpful. What should someone who is in that perimenopausal range be aware of?

Jenny Hobbs 34:23

I do think perimenopause is a really interesting topic to talk about alongside this because and I actually recently went to a Mayo Clinic CME a few months ago and there was a talk on ADHD and a talk on perimenopause. So I was really excited, excited, all these facts in my mind ready to go. And there's actually a lot of overlap, which is kind of cool. So perimenopause is also very poorly understood, just like ADHD, right? But we do have some pretty good studies now that show that perimenopausal symptoms can start a lot earlier than you might think. So the average age for menopause is around 52, okay? But it can start anytime after 45 is considered normal.

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:06

And I just want to note it's different for different populations. Women of color, black women have a different perimenopausal kind of median age than white women than it can be. But 50s between 50 and 55 kind of covers it.

Jenny Hobbs 35:20

That's a great yeah, that's a great point. And I, again, I'm not an OBGYN. So this is definitely not my main area of expertise. I really mostly understand it as it overlaps with ADHD and things like that. So that's a really good point. I did not know that about people of color, but it totally makes sense. And I think the important point here, though, is that prior to menopause, there's this sort of what they call perimenopause or menopause transition, and then they have something even before that that they call the late reproductive stage. So that's what the OBGYNs call it. Okay. And the bottom line is that big studies show that the symptoms that we think of being menopausal symptoms can start as much as 10 plus years before you actually go into menopause. So they've done studies where they surveyed women starting at age 35. And basically what they found was this, I think the cohort was 35 to 55 or something like that. Basically, what they found was that they had just as many symptoms at 35 as at 50. Like you couldn't really make a huge difference. The only symptom that was really different based on age was hot flashes. So, hot flashes were definitely worse when you were older. But the rest of the things we think of, so sleep problems, brain fog, mood changes, even like musculoskeletal pain, weight gain, you know, vaginal dryness, urinary symptoms, all of that stuff, they couldn't find a difference, whether you were 35 or 45 or 50 on average, which so that means a lot of the stuff that we are just thinking, like you said, oh, this is just, you know, aging, it could be very early signs of menopause, even if you're in your late 30s, potentially, right? I think it is more common as you get older, but I think that, for me was really eye-opening.

Sara Bybee Fisk 37:10

I started perimenopause at 38. Yeah, just based on what was going on with, for me at the time, medical issues I was having, I started perimenopause and nobody told me that that's what it was. Like you said, I really love that perimenopause is having the moment it deserves, and I hope it's a lot more than a moment, because there is so much to it, and I know that I spent a lot of years just watching myself decline and wondering what was wrong, not feeling like there was anything I could do about it. And so I'm really grateful that we've had this discussion because I hope what it opens up, a couple of things, like number one, if you're experiencing some of these things, there's nothing morally wrong with you. It might be time to download the Libby app and listen to Russell Barkley's book, or see a provider, make sure that you're getting one that understands how adult ADHD really manifest differently in adults and specifically in women. Because what I really hope is that women can just ease up on themselves, and that we can get ourselves the resources that we need. So we're not just on the edge of that like overwhelm burnout edge all the time, which I felt like that's just where I lived for such a long time. So I'm really grateful. Is there anything that you didn't get to say so far in our conversation that you wanna make sure that you add?

Jenny Hobbs 38:39

Yeah, I just wanted to, I think along the lines of the perimenopause evaluation and question, so one thing that's really interesting is that if you think about it, these symptoms that we're talking about start so early that hormone testing, like doing the labs to see what your hormone levels are, is really not that helpful in terms of diagnosing. So I think often, you know, again, as in our culture, we all want the black and white answer, we want to go to the doctor and get the lab test that proves that we have this or that we have menopause, and we want to know we want a right answer, we want is this perimenopause, or is this ADHD, you know, we want it all to be perfect. And I don't want to downplay that. Because as Sara said, people can feel so much better when they get the correct diagnosis, and there are treatments that work. So, hormone therapy can be extremely effective. It's very safe. That's another area where there's a lot of misconceptions about it. So with a really smart medical provider, it doesn't have to be an OBGYN, it can be an internal medicine doctor who does or a family practice doctor who does a lot of outpatient women's medicine, talk to them about the risks and benefits, but it can be extremely helpful to get on hormone therapy for that, and helpful to get a diagnosis. But the diagnosis is more of what we would say in medicine, a clinical diagnosis, it's less dependent on those lab values. So go in, ask the question, go in armed with the information that it can start earlier, and for all those reasons. And I think the other thing that's interesting about perimenopause is whether or not you decide to do the hormone therapy is, again, it was fascinating at this talk that I went to, the slides about how to treat your menopausal symptoms, and the slides about how to treat your ADHD, right? After you got past the medication, so either hormone therapy for menopause or stimulants and things like that for ADHD, once you got past that, the list was basically the same. It was sleep, exercise, nutrition, and then a lot of mindset stuff like we talked about, accepting yourself and working on those emotional regulation strategies and all that stuff. So what I love about that is that you can go to your doctor and you should and get evaluated because why not make your life easier by treating the actual problem. But if you don't get the answer you're looking for, or it doesn't feel clear cut, that can also be okay, because you can look at it as an opportunity to tune up your lifestyle and to start working on these strategies of self-acceptance and love and confidence and all of these things, which you can start doing whatever happens with the diagnosis. And honestly, all women can benefit from improving their self-acceptance and love and confidence and their ability to handle their emotions.

Jenny Hobbs 41:22

There's no downside to working on all that while you're doing this. Does that make sense? If anything, it's like a great opportunity to justify it to yourself because there is real benefit to it. Sometimes, like you said, we think things aren't important, but now that we know these things are so important and we're starting to have symptoms that are causing big enough problems that they're affecting our life, we can use that as motivation to prioritize ourselves and what matters. So I know that's kind of like my positive spin I like to take on it with my ADHD folks is like, this is a gift because everyone could use my favorite example is everyone could be better at emotional regulation. Everyone at your work is having trouble regulating their emotions, and they're just covering it up better than you do. And so while it may seem like you're the problem, this is also you get to get really good at this skill that other people are ignoring and you will benefit from that for the rest of your life once you have that intact. And I think that goes for good girls too, right?

Sara Bybee Fisk 42:21

100%. I'm really grateful for the toolkit that you've created. We will link to that. A link to the Libby app too because that's a great free resource for reading that book. And Jenny, just thank you so much for being here.

Jenny Hobbs 42:35

Yeah, thank you. I loved chatting with you. I love your podcast. I just resonate so much with you and the women you work with. So thank you for being the voice of all of us ex-good girls. It's, it's awesome.

Sara Bybee Fisk 42:47

Absolutely. And if people want to find out more about you and your work, where would you like them to go?

Jenny Hobbs 42:52

So, um, you can find me at Jenny Hobbs, MD, like medical doctor. Someone's asked me, does that mean you're from Maryland? No, jennyhobbsmd.com. And I'm also on Instagram, same thing. I believe I was going to change it at one point, but I think it's still the same. Jenny Hobbs, MD on Instagram. I'm also on Facebook. I also have a podcast called Rethink Your Rules, which is just talking to women. You know, all the rules that the good girls were supposed to follow and we're just rethinking them and I specifically say, I always say, it's not that we're going to necessarily rewrite them. We might rewrite them. We're just going to pause and rethink them and decide if they work for us now that we've learned what, how we're wired. And so, so those are good places to find me and I, uh, you know, check out the toolkit that I created, feel free to set up a console anytime. If you want to talk this over, honestly, it's pretty common for women to come to me because they're in that late thirties, early forties, got a kid or two that's diagnosed with ADHD and they're questioning, is this perimenopause? Is this ADHD, and you know, where do I start? And so I love to be able to sort of work with people and guide them as they're talking to their doctor. And I can be a really nice sort of a physician sounding board who's not actually doing the medical diagnosing and treating, but I can help them with the strategies and the mindset and give them an outside perspective as they're going through all of that. So if you want to do a consult and you just chat about where you are and where you want to go, I'm happy to do it.

Sara Bybee Fisk 44:19

Thank you so much.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 6/4/25 Sara Bybee Fisk 6/4/25

Episode 117 - The Enneagram for People Pleasers Part 2 with Wendy Montgomery

Send us a text So many women blame themselves for their people-pleasing tendencies–I can’t speak up, I apologize too much, I have to avoid conflict at all costs…

Today, I’m back with part two of my conversation with Enneagram coach Wendy Montgomery. In part one, we explored the nine Enneagram types and how people-pleasing can show up for each one. Now, we’re diving into what healing these habits looks like for each type and how the Enneagram can act as a guide for transformation. Here’s what we cover:

Why self-awareness is key to reducing people-pleasing tendencies
A type-by-type analysis of how the shift away from people pleasing can happen
Why healing is a journey, not an arrival–even with the help of the Enneagram
How to offer yourself grace and compassion when overcoming people-pleasing
A healing message for each Enneagram type

Find Wendy here:

https://www.instagram.com/wendymontcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/people/Wendy-Montgomery-Coaching/

Find Sara here:

https://sarafisk.coach

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.wendymontgomery.com/

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:00

It was a lot of fun to record this podcast episode with my friend and Enneagram coach Wendy Montgomery. It's in two parts because there's just so much to the Enneagram. It's really hard to narrow it down and we try to discuss as much as possible without firehosing you and I hope we did a good job. In part one, Wendy introduces you to each of the nine types and what people pleasing might look like for each type and then in part two, we look at the healing of people pleasing and what it might look like for each type to become more self-aware and take steps to heal the wounds that cause a lot of the people pleasing and we try to give you a map for finding out your type or for deepening your understanding. I really hope you enjoy the episode. I really want to just talk about the shift that happens for each type as they move along the spectrum of recognizing people pleasing or recognizing some unhealthy habits and patterns that don't serve them and don't work for them. The shift that happens as they move toward healing or health from people pleasing specifically. One of the most beautiful things that you have sent me, I think I asked you one time, we were talking about the healing sentences that each type needs to hear. I would love to end with those just so that if that is something that resonates with people listening, they can take those sentences. First kind of like a type by type shift that happens and then we'll end with those healing sentences.

Wendy Montgomery 02:41

I think what's really helpful is to understand the importance of self-awareness when it comes to the Enneagram because the more self-aware we are, the more we can see the way we're getting in our own ways. That's going to look different from type to type. For me as a type eight, being really self-aware of how I'm coming across to other people has been a game changer for me because a lot of eights don't realize that when we bring a level 10 energy to every engagement where maybe a level two or three would have been sufficient that we can come on way strong. In our mind, we're just being friendly and engaging. My kids say I make aggressive eye contact. I don't even know what that means. I just think I'm looking at you and paying attention to what's being said and they feel like it's like laser beams coming out of my eyes. There is that piece of self-awareness that we can't fix something unless we see it. The beauty and also the tricky confronting part of the Enneagram is it will show you. It'll show you how you're getting in your own way if you let it. It does require a level of not just humility for our own weaknesses and ways we wish we were showing up better. It requires deep compassion and friendship towards ourselves to be like, yeah, of course I show it messy. Sometimes life is hard. That kind of encompasses all of the types, that self-awareness piece.

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:09

It does. Okay, I didn't want to admit this because you're the Enneagram expert here, but I started playing around with each type. And what might it look like from like my work with each of these types, because I have every single type in my practice, either, you know, privately or in group coaching. And so I started writing and I'm going to read to you what I wrote, and I want you to either weigh in and tweak it so that it is more accurate, if that makes sense.

Wendy Montgomery 04:37

Yes. That sounds awesome.

Sara Bybee Fisk 04:40

So type one, the reformer or the perfectionist, before they kind of experienced the self-awareness that you so rightly pointed out, they need to be good, they need to be right. And their responsibility kind of earns them that love, right? They're always kind of earning and earning and earning. And as they become self-aware and self-connected, they realize that being human means I'm going to make mistakes. It is a feature, not a bug. And that begins to create a place for softness with themselves, softness with their mistakes, and it allows them to go from really rigid, constant self-judgment to more of a graciousness or grace-filled view of themselves.

Wendy Montgomery 05:32

Yeah, that is exactly what it looks like. And for all the ones listening, and for all of the types when we go through this part of it, it will be the journey of your life to get there. You're going to get there and it's going to feel amazing. And then there might be a little bit of a slide back and then you'll get there. It will be the thing that we are working towards until we die. It's never an arrival. I mean, I would love for it to be an arrival. It's a journey.

Sara Bybee Fisk 06:00

Yeah. And the question that you asked, I think, you know, of each type is, is so important to be asking as a way to facilitate this kind of movement toward more health and more and habits that just serve you and your relationships better. Okay, so type two, before they kind of have the self-awareness, they are also doing a lot of the gaining self-worth by meeting others' needs, giving people the cookie that they baked, you know, from scratch this morning, anticipating others' needs, and they're neglecting their own desires. They are really resentful kind of in there because they're always so outwardly focused. And what a two looks like as they journey toward health and out of people pleasing is that love, they learn that love doesn't require them to be constantly hypervigilantly doing their thing. And that they actually are worthy of receiving care without feeling guilty and without feeling ashamed. They go from like the self-sacrificial type of love to more of self-worth as love for themselves.

Wendy Montgomery 07:21

Yes. And to be able to accept other people's help and care for themselves. That's so hard for it too.

Sara Bybee Fisk 07:29

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So for three, the achiever, you also mentioned that they would kind of shapeshift, right? I'll just be whoever you need me to be. I will be really good at reading the room and I will show up and meet people's needs both so that you can admire me and so that I avoid being seen as a failure. So their shift would look like understanding that they're worthy of receiving, that worth isn't tied to how they perform. And as I've seen threes kind of make this journey, there's almost this softening or relaxing into letting themselves be seen as someone with needs who is authentic and comfortable with being kind of a regular human like the rest of us.

Wendy Montgomery 08:25

Yeah, and less than shiny and perfect. Yeah.

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:28

Yeah, I love that. Okay, good. I feel like I'm getting a good grade on this so far. Yes.

Wendy Montgomery 08:34

Yes, you nailed it.

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:35

It's awesome not to be a people pleaser and seek your approval right now Wendy.

Wendy Montgomery 08:42

I mean, not the people-pleaser part. You're nailing this part.

Sara Bybee Fisk 08:45

Type four, the individualist. So they are kind of on that teeter-totter seesaw of too much, not enough, and kind of wanting to be special. I need to be more special. I'm not special enough to earn a place, to earn belonging, to earn the right to kind of exist in their groups. And they go from that to knowing that they just who they are, however they feel it, however they see it, however it is in their lens or their circumstance, it's right. And it's enough. And that they are able to connect, not just by being the most special or the most unique, but through shared emotional experience that doesn't have to be the same level of emotion. Yes. So they go from like maybe like a longing for significance through their emotionalness, their specialness, to just really being at home with who they are and how they feel. And they just belong.

Wendy Montgomery 09:56

Yeah, I love all of that. And I would also add that they stop putting shame on themselves for their big feelings. They let themselves have them. Cause society, especially if you're a male type four, like my husband, society is like, why are you like, and it's not like he's a crier or anything, but it's like, he's going to feel something deeply. And then there's a level of shame. Like I can't let people know how much this is affecting me. Women as well, you know? And when they get to just feel what they're going to feel, regardless of what society tells them is okay, they don't have to feel that need to people, please.

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:30

Yeah, this next one was fun for me because Dan is a five. So before they come into a lot of self-awareness and begin that healing journey, their protection is through withdrawal. And like intellectual control of either the conversation or whatever is going on. I've talked with Dan in the past that sometimes his boundaries felt like electric fences, right? Oh, that's so accurate for fives. When he needed space and he needed time because fives do need more space and time to themselves and there can be very protective of their free time and their personal time. And I think that the switch I've seen him make and other fives make is that they develop the capacity to open up and participate without controlling the intellectual property in a conversation. Oh, that's so good. Or in a situation, and they actually trust that their needs will also still be met. Sometimes those boundaries that feel like electric fences are fives who worry that they won't have enough free time for themselves, they won't have enough of their own resources for themselves. But as I've seen fives and especially Dan kind of relax into trusting other people, like talking about what they need. Like the reason it's hard for a five to trust that their needs are going to be met is sometimes they feel like they're the only one looking out for themselves. But as they open up and they share their emotional experience, they learn to trust that other people will show up for them and meet their needs as well. And so it really is a shift from like a withholding as a way to protect myself to engaging with a lot more trust that their needs will be met. Because part of what we need as humans is emotional community and communing with each other on an emotional level.

Wendy Montgomery 12:31

You said it so well. For fives, they fully believe that their energy, their bandwidth is finite. It will be over at some point, so they are fiercely protective of it. So their growth work, like what you were explaining, is almost a generosity of their time and their knowledge. And even if it feels like it's coming at an expense, it's worth it because I love this person or I love this group. And there will be more. Once it's over, it's gone and the well is empty. Yeah, so good.

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:06

All right, type six, the loyalist. So they're people-pleasing. When I was looking at, you know, different clients and people I know looks a lot like aligning with strong leaders, that loyalty piece of just like parroting, like strong leaders or strong groups for safety. There's a large number of sixes and a lot of, you know, conservative religious groups because that is what they do for safety. And because so much of their people-pleasing is just towing the party line. And there's very little self-trust that can be built when you're just kind of towing the party line, allowing the thinking to be done for you by people that you trust to keep you safe. It is the opening to I am trustworthy. I have an internal authority that I can cultivate that actually creates safety for me so that I can disagree so that I can have my own opinion so that I can take a stand that aligns with maybe more who I am deeply and authentically than just the rules of this group. It looks to me like the shift from an externalized trust. I'm going to trust this group to take care of me and their laws and their rules and what they want for me and what they tell me to think to more of an internalized bravery or courage or centeredness. And it's not even either or it's not like the loyalist has to leave the group, but it's their own internal compass and trust comes online and is at least equal to that of the group to which they belong and hope will keep them safe.

Wendy Montgomery 14:56

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think sixes thrive when they realize that the assurance that they're looking for is best found inside themselves. Yeah. It's there.

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:07

Yeah.

Wendy Montgomery 15:08

And they have to trust it.

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:09

All right, seven, the enthusiasts. I have a strong seven wing, avoiding pain by let's go do something fun. But I think there's a lot of accommodating and being very agreeable that also happens for sevens. And so slowing down, like I just remember in a lot of my seven, just high, just action, action, action, action, action, doing, doing, doing, doing, and so slowing down to stay present with emotions.Because for a lot of people pleasers, we are able to just skip past the heaviness of the guilt, the resentment, the fear, by just staying in motion. So for a seven in particular, slowing down, staying present, and a shift from like constantly being in action, trying to not feel to just being comfortable feeling and letting and trusting that those emotions have really valuable, important information for us about what is good for us, what is not good for us, and letting some of those emotions lead the way.

Wendy Montgomery 16:24

Absolutely. I call it bright siding that sevens do, like when they stop bright siding other people or a situation and like see it for the truth of what it is and let that be good enough, you know, and feeling that perfect. It's perfect.

Sara Bybee Fisk 16:41

All right, type eight, the protector. Okay, hurt my feelings. Mine too. So that fierce like self-protection, not wanting to be controlled, not wanting to be trapped in in anything, is the armoring up that I see for myself, like I can do it, give it to me, I'll take care of it, I will take care of that and that and that and that. And so you become this, this almost self supported thing, because you don't allow a lot of other people to step in and do a lot for you. Especially because having needs feel so vulnerable, it feels like you're, you know, standing naked in front of everyone not knowing if they will want to support you the same way that you know, you are you are supporting and protecting everyone else. Will I be protected the same way that I'm protecting everyone else? And so allowing softness and allowing mutual care, that letting other people in is not just an act of courage, but that it's an act of courage. And it's not weak. And it is what actually gets me the protection and the care and the mutual equity that I so often resent that I don't have. And so it's a shift from like being the strongest, or like being the one to have power over by moving all the chess pieces on the board for everybody else, to just be equal, right power with and softness with connection with

Wendy Montgomery 18:28

Yes. All of that. 100%.The other thing I was thinking when you were speaking is, oh, another way that people pleasing shows up for me is my overuse of apologies. Because I automatically assume if something's gone sideways in a relationship that it's my fault. Because eights feel that a lot, especially female eights were too loud. We have too big of an opinion. We're too harsh. So I assume I said something unkind or I did something that was thoughtless. And then I start realizing I'm like, I am taking far more accountability and ownership of things that I was not the problem, if that makes sense. So that's a way that I find that I'm trying not to people please is apologizing when I do get it wrong for sure. But not taking other people's stuff and making it mine.

Sara Bybee Fisk 19:17

That's right. Just letting, just letting whatever awkwardness or discomfort is there, be there without owning it and trying to smooth it over. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Last one type nine, the peacemaker. So the peacemaker, as I understand it, really is about disappearing my own needs just to keep everybody else happy. So I'm going to, if I'm a nine, I'm avoiding conflict and I see the nine, you know, in, in me a lot, deferring decisions. What do you think? What do you want to do? Chameleoning just so that everybody is harmonious and that there's no conflict. And so out of that comes a lot of people pleasing and nines when they find their voice. And when they say, this is what I want, this is what I need. It's almost like the switch flips and they become more of, I would call like an, an active participant in their life, not just the one kind of curating the experience for everybody else and just trying to keep it everybody happy and smiling. And so I see their shift from like not having any needs. That's what gets me loved and accepted to, I am a person who has needs that deserve to be met just like everybody else. And I feel comfortable saying what those are and holding my place of equality in a group.

Wendy Montgomery 20:53

That's so good and I'm thinking of, I have a lot of nines in my life, a lot of family members that are nine and I think it'd be amazing if they could do that and it would also be very hard for a nine. I think everything you mentioned across all the types is so beautiful and it will be hard. So I don't want your listeners to expect to be like, okay, well, I've got the magic bullet. This is what I need and now like give me a week or two and I've got this. This is going to be something that we work on our whole life. So give yourself like a lot of grace and a lot of compassion because we're going to do it fumbling and messy, especially in the beginning as we're trying to overcome these people-pleasing tendencies.

Sara Bybee Fisk 21:35

Yeah. And I wanted to offer these shifts as kind of like the lighthouse, right? That we're going toward. Because so many of the women that I talk to that, you know, they know they're people pleasing. They don't know how to stop. And they long for a real authentic lived experience. And hopefully in these, you know, nine kind of shifts that I've just kind of, you know, it's not that any grand bible by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the shifts that I have seen clients make. And it's a continuum, right? It is a constantly evolving set of skills and feeling of self connectedness and sovereignness authenticity that begins to develop that just builds on itself. Yeah.

Wendy Montgomery 22:27

It's so good. I love those shifts. I'm gonna write them down. Thank you.

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:31

I'm so glad. Did I get a good A? Did I get a good grade? Great plan.

Wendy Montgomery 22:34

Plus, you totally pleased me, Sara.

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:39

People-pleased. Excellent. All right, so let's end. Do you have those sentences that you could just read to us as we end? So as you hear these, if you're listening, just notice which ones feel like the warm hug that you wish you could have had maybe or you wish you could have and offer this to yourself because that's the thing that we can do as adults to heal whatever set of wounds and circumstances kind of created each type in us as we can begin to fill that hole for ourselves and heal that wound.

Wendy Montgomery 23:15

Yes, absolutely. So the Enneagram calls these the healing messages or the message your heart longs to hear. I call them for the spouses you're get out of jail free card. So if you're ever in a disagreement and you know your spouse's type, write this down because this is what will soften every conversation. It is also what we need to deeply, deeply embody within ourselves for our type because this is where we find ours, our softness. It's where we find our integrity. It's where we find true peace. So for our type one, the improver, it sounds so simple, but it's so important. Their healing message is you are good. Period. Full stop. You don't have to keep doing and perfecting and making everything better. It's good and you are good right now. So that's type one. Oh, good. Type two, the healing message for the helper is you are wanted and loved. You don't have to contort yourself. You don't have to bend over backwards taking care of every person in your life. You are wanted and loved right now without having to serve or do anything. And then type three, their message is you are loved for yourself without needing to perform. There is nothing we need you to do. You don't need to be shiny and perfect for us. We love you right now, even flawed and messy, right? And then type four, you are loved and seen for who you are. You already are special. You already are unique. You already are your authentic self. And we see that and that is what we love in you, right? And then for type five, their message is your needs are not a problem. They are so fiercely independent. They won't even let you know what they need because they're going to take care of it because they're afraid their needs might be a problem for you. Nope, your needs are not a problem. Let me be here for you. That's a five. And then type six, their message again, it sounds really simple, but it's really important for six is to know you are safe. We've got you, you're safe. And you've got you, right? Type seven is you will be taken care of. Again, a very independent type. That's just like, nah, I'll take care of myself. No, let us take care of you. We will take care of you. That's seven. And then type eight, you will not be betrayed. And that I think they use an intense word like betrayal because eights are an intense type, but that is what hurt feels like to us sometimes is betrayal. And when we know you will not be betrayed, we show up a lot softer with a lot less armor. And then type nine, last but not least, your presence matters. You have a seat at the table, your opinions, what you want, it matters to us. Your voice matters.

Sara Bybee Fisk 26:19

Those are so beautiful. And I noticed several, you know, that just feel really good to say to myself, even though, you know, I'm kind of in that solid eight area of the Enneagram. So whatever feels like that just soft warm hug, please take those healing sentences and start to say them to yourself. Because that is the beauty of being a human is that we can't go back and necessarily relive the past. But we can still heal the things that hurt from the past by showing up as the beautiful wise adult today for ourselves that we needed back then. Wendy, I have loved this discussion with you. So glad I got a good grade on my assignment. You didn't know I took on from myself. If people want to find you find out more about the Enneagram work with you, where should they go to do that?

Wendy Montgomery 27:18

Well, my website is wendymontgomery.com. You can find me on any social media platform. I'm probably the most active on Instagram, where it is wendymontcoach. On Facebook, I'm wendymontgomerycoaching. On a lot of the social platforms, you can find me there. So I love this too, Sara. This was awesome. Thanks for having me on.

Sara Bybee Fisk 27:40

Absolutely. All those will be linked in the show notes and Wendy, thank you so much for your time.

Download the transcript here

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Sara Bybee Fisk 5/27/25 Sara Bybee Fisk 5/27/25

Episode 116 - The Enneagram for People Pleasers Part 1 with Wendy Montgomery

Send us a text So many women blame themselves for their people-pleasing tendencies–I can’t speak up, I apologize too much, I have to avoid conflict at all costs…

I have been so excited to have my dear friend and Enneagram coach, Wendy Montgomery, on the podcast. The Enneagram is an expansive and incredible tool that has helped me understand myself and those around me in a whole new way. In this two-part conversation, you’ll learn about all nine types and the insight they offer into why and how we people-please. Here’s what we cover:

The characteristics, core motivator, and core fear of each Enneagram type
Why understanding your Enneagram type can help lessen people-pleasing tendencies
How the Enneagram triads offer further insight into your type
The unique ways people-pleasing shows up for every type
A question for each type to ask themselves to gain more self-awareness
How gender stereotypes can impact Enneagram analysis

Find Wendy here:

https://www.instagram.com/wendymontcoach/

https://www.facebook.com/people/Wendy-Montgomery-Coaching/

Find Sara here:

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://www.daniellesavory.com/

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57
Danielle Savory, I am so glad that we get to have this conversation.

Danielle Savory 01:02
Me too. I have been looking forward to it ever since you sent me the text like let's do this

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:07

What do you want people to know? I mean, everybody already knows who you are. But for those who are late to the game, Daniel Savory sex coach, what do you want people to know about you?

Danielle Savory 01:17

You know, the thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is being a lifelong learner. And that is one of the things I have absolutely love that has kept me involved in this work, is this constant striving to like, understand, I mean, human psychology in general, I think you and I both geek out on all of the ways that we're socialized, how it impacts our nervous system, yada, but specifically, and really watching because it's presenting itself in such a different way, the impact that socialization has on the way that we show up with our sexuality and really all of these avenues that we can find, especially those of us socialized as women that are blocking us from feeling good, right, these messages that are saying like, let's get to the personal growth, but it's really just about surviving like enough to get by so you don't feel awful. But we don't talk about like, once we get to ground zero, let's talk about feeling like ecstatic and alive and like turned on and how despite all of the huge movements and progress we've made with sexuality and talking about mental load and people pleasing and all of these sorts of things, it's still kind of just getting us to like, a level that should be a birthright to begin with, let alone like a level that is like, of so much more joy, and there's just so many layers there. And so I think more than anything, like I'm just a lifelong scholar of this work and will continue just to show up in my own life, because I'm my best subject test. And then of course, to my clients and what I'm seeing in the world. So yes, that's who I am.

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:08

Well, I have been the beneficiary of that lifelong learning and your obsession with women and pleasure and getting them into their bodies and into their bodies in a safe way, into their bodies in an intimate, vulnerable way. It has been, we've had a couple of conversations and one of them, we recorded podcast episode number 25 where you said something that has kind of been rolling around in my head ever since. And it has to do with the level of kind of self-intimacy and self-vulnerability that is required for a woman to really know what she wants in sexual experiences. And I realized at the time that I didn't think I had it. And that's, there's a lot there that maybe we'll touch on today, but that really just has kind of been coming up and coming up and coming up. And I hear it in the experiences of so many women that I talked to because not only are they having bad sex or having sex that isn't fulfilling, not having orgasms, not experiencing the type of like intimacy and connectedness that they want, but they're blaming themselves for it. They are putting up with it. And they're kind of thinking this is as good as it gets. And they are experiencing kind of the slow decline or the die-off of their sex lives as just something normal. Like this is what is supposed to happen as you age, you just experience less desire and that's just how it goes. And so that's kind of like the backdrop for everything that was on my mind when Hulu dropped Dying for Sex. And I'll say right now, if you have not, if you're listening and you have not watched the show, don't listen to this if you're going to watch it, because we're going to talk about a lot of things that will spoil it for you or listen to it and then watch it later, your choice. But if you decide to watch it, but watch it and I will say, make sure that you look up the themes and the subject matter so that you know what you will experience and see because coming from a conservative religious background, that is, it's not something I would have ever watched before. And I just want people to be prepared. But it has been like few shows have affected me the way that Dying for Sex has affected me, because it talks about kind of all of these overlapping Venn diagrams of what should women be allowed to expect and ask for, and how do they get to the level of self-knowledge and vulnerability where they feel not just like they know what they want, but confident and able to ask for it. And then you overlap all of that with mortality and a timeline it just what were your first

Danielle Savory 06:08

I mean, I had so many, the first thing that came to mind was the fact that it was presented as this like urgency, right, because of dying, I really loved that theme. And the reason is I've written about this before, I've talked to my clients about this before. But it's been one of the most powerful practices that I've taken from when I was deeply in like the Buddhist meditation world and doing a lot of like learning from that, which was a basically like a death practice. And it's not for the faint of heart. And I think especially in Western culture, we have such this fear, right, about death, about talking about death, like it really is something that most people just like sex are very uncomfortable talking about. It's another taboo conversation, especially in the Western world and the way that we think about it, people are afraid of it. I was even trying to talk to one of my friends about this. And she was like, I can't even go there. Like, you know, how I get triggered

talking about death, like a lot of people have fear around death, you know, they don't want to think about their loved ones dying. But one of the things that allowed me to even start to explore like my own desires was a regular death practice where I go deep into meditation. And it's really uncomfortable, like I'm not saying this is not for the faint of heart, but really imagining that people that I love passing away, and even or myself passing away and what can be brought up somatically, emotionally, mentally is such a different perspective of gratitude, of absolute love, of maybe desire of like, wait, but if this is it, like, what does feel urgent? Like, what do I still want to explore? What do I want to say that I keep like week by week keeps going by and I'm not saying the thing. And it can bring that to a surface in a way that is felt. Because again, you know, if we're in deep meditation or imagination, like your brain doesn't and body doesn't know the difference of this is real or not, just like when you wake up from a dream, and somebody has died, it feels very real. And so, you know, even beyond the sex stuff, I loved the conversation around death and all of the things that it brought up, but also how and why that brought up this urgency and this desire and seeing kind of these things that don't match up in your life, like if I only have this much left, like, these things don't align. And the fact that so many women don't actually ask those questions of themselves, until they're faced with like the ultimate end. And can we start asking these questions sooner? And sometimes a death practice can really bring that gratitude and appreciation where you start to understand you see the things that really do make a difference. And then you're like, oh, it's okay that you didn't pick up your shoes. Like, I'm not really going to care about that later too. It's like the things that become trivial, but like, this part is actually really important to me.

Sara Bybee Fisk 09:31

I felt so much of that. I mean, it just kind of sucks you in. You are not allowed to look away from Molly's death, right? You are not allowed to look away, and you're not allowed to look away through the eyes of several characters who unflinchingly tell her the truth, right? The truth about what is gonna happen to her, the truth about the process that she is in, the truth about the limited time that she has left. It is, I mean, on the one hand, pleasure and mortality seem like opposites, right? Because pleasure is such a lived embodied experience, and her body is failing, and you see it in scene after scene where she is attempting pleasure and her body fails. And she goes after something that she wants, and her body fails. It felt like kind of gut punch after gut punch. If I'm going to be honest, I wanted her to get better. I wanted there to be a scene where the doctor comes in and is like, you know what, actually, you're not dying. We fixed it.

Danielle Savory 10:35 Orgasms, like, heal.

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:36

Yes. I was like- Right. But the characters who unflinchingly tell her the truth are so moving and so meaningful. And I just wondered what your thoughts were about either those relationships or characters specifically.

Danielle Savory 10:54

Yeah, well, I also like that you just brought up before we pass over this point of like the pursuit of pleasure with obstacles, right? And specifically with the obstacles of pain in the body, because for those of you that know my backstory, like that was me. And I think a lot of women, you know, at some point in their life, that's what it feels like. It's like, I want this and I'm starting to get more courageous in the desire for it. But then like getting pushback and pushback and pushback because your body isn't cooperating the way that you want it to. And how pursuing pleasure, despite these obstacles, really is like coming back to our conversation about like intimacy with self is like such a testament to like standing firmly in the ground like I'm worth this. Like I am worth it. Like I don't care how many times my body's like no, no, no, no, no, I want to meet it. I want to collaborate with it. I want to figure out a way that we can begin to move through these obstacles together. Not that I'm ignoring you and pretending this other stuff isn't happening, but how do we work together me and my body and my soul and my heart to create such a beautiful like connection of safety and trust and not abandonment so that we can all, all meeting all of these points of ourselves, right? Experience like this ultimate level of like pleasure. And I think it was that continuous pursuit of it. And to be honest, at some points in that show, I thought that it was going to, she was going to stop that she was going to be like, well, I can't now or I'm in too much pain now or this isn't working and I'm in hospice now. And actually like quit on this mission. And I'm so happy that like till the very end, like this was still at the top of the mind because I think it's so easy, especially as viewers and those of us that have been socialized in this culture to understand like what her husband was saying of like, but this isn't even important. Like we just need to spend time together. All these other ways that her desires to experience sexual pleasure were dismissed and honestly are just kind of dismissed in society from, you know, in general, like her mother dismissed it, her doctor dismissed it, her husband dismissed it. All of these other voices that are like, but why is this the thing? You're spending your last days on like, really? Is this who you've become that somehow that this pursuit of pleasure was so less worthy of her time and attention than just like connection with other people or conversations or I don't even know what she would be doing. Like just letting herself being babied by her husband. Like that should be more appealing to her than an orgasm.

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:57

I'm so glad you brought us back to that point. We'll get to the characters who tell her the truth in a minute, because I think that this is important. She faces such judgment around her choices. And I just want to name some of the cultural narrative that still exists for women around our sexuality. Be desirable. Have a body that's desirable, but don't have so much desire that you're a whore, that you just want sex more than anything else, because that's disgusting and gross.

Danielle Savory 14:30
Yeah, yeah, what's wrong with you?

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:32
What are some of the other kind of cultural, patriarchal bullshit that comes up for you?

Danielle Savory 14:38

Well, I was just I was just noticing like the way even her husband, right? Like there were so many things with her husband Like but one of the things was just like but you're dying Like you need to be taken care of like basically like submit to the thing that I've decided you need more of than you knowing what you need. That was such like a predominant thing throughout but also because some of her sex capades in this show weren't I would say as most people consider like traditional like avenues of exploration when it comes to pleasure. You could just see the eyes of like her family they're like bringing this like submissive into our hospital room or how it was being talked about or going to a sex party like all of these ways that it's like yeah for sure get yours, but only get yours in a way that we have deemed accessible and maybe a little daring but not too daring.

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:44

It really speaks to who gets to have sex, who gets to have sexual pleasure, right? Do sick bodies get to have sexual pleasure? Do bodies that look different, that have different capabilities and capacities? There is such a narrative about who gets to have what type of sex based on what is going on with their body either health-wise or what it looks like or who desires it and who doesn't? That's a big part of it.

Danielle Savory 16:15

Yeah. And I even noticed myself even being, you know, a lifelong learner and person of this work, questioning some of it too. Like, why does this one feel uncomfortable and this one doesn't, right? Like, especially with her husband, I was like, yeah, go get out of there, get your thing, like, all wrong, right? But then when her best friend, like, threw this incredible party for her, I was like, and you're gonna go on like this other day. I was like, that's kind of shitty, you know, like, and why do I think it's shitty? And I still kind of landed on like, I still thought it was shitty, but in a way that felt like there is still nuance. And there is like these certain conversations and like, where, where does it still like fit into like my social okay's or what I think is okay and acceptable and also questioning like, I'm still not sure if like, that is coming from the people pleaser and me or that's coming in like, but your friend really is doing a lot for you and she loves you. And that could be true intimacy in that moment versus like a quick dopamine hit of going on this date, you know, so I do think that there was so much and I love that it brought that kind of like, you know, self-inquiry into my own mind.

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:36

Yeah, and I love that the show just let us experience that and grapple with it and didn't make it clean and pretty like she chose her friend in that moment, which I think a lot of people watching it, I think I had the same reaction you did, like, oh, but she bought you the dresses and then the hats and then you're just gonna leave her.Yeah.And I love that we just get to be left with that feeling because that's our judgment of it. And Molly is so singly focused on this goal of hers to have an orgasm with another person that she knows, I think, that her friendship can handle that and that it will recover because again, kind of coming back around to the characters who really tell her the truth in a lot of different ways, right? There's medical professionals who are really truthful with her in such beautiful ways. But what, let's dive into the friend for a little bit.I forget her name. Do you remember her name?

Danielle Savory 18:38

I don't remember her name but yeah I mean the friend oh my gosh I just loved her so much and I loved how she was also unapologetic and explaining. You know her best friend's desires like okay I'm here I'm with you like you wanna leave your husband you wanna go get your like let's do this you know even though like she was you know showed up fully in support like let's do this without. Maybe fully realizing like what that meant but the way she also just like stood kept standing up for her friend with this pursuit and supporting her you know, whether it was to her boyfriend or I think it was her sister or to the doctor in the room like it was like I am here and I am your advocate and I also love not just that she was such an advocate and right there with her but she created such a safe space for her friend. Friend to have this desire to be able to express it to share with her how it was going to share with her what was going on and I think that still

in this society we really have a hard time doing that with our friends you know like this is still so taboo in so many ways that even with your friends like you're not necessarily going to be like I'm having horrible sex. Or like when she first told her best friend she had never had an orgasm with her husband you know like these kind of things because they feel so shameful let alone the desires feeling shameful like the reality of certain situations feel really shameful we barely even wanna say that sentence to ourselves because what we make it mean let alone having conversations with people we trust and not saying you need to be having friends that you talk to about everything but like having open conversations with somebody like about this that allows you to actually see it.

Sara Bybee Fisk 20:40

That also just kind of points back to this idea that the biggest relationship, the most important relationship should be to our partner, that they complete us, that they should know everything about us, that they know how to meet all our needs. And if they don't, there's something wrong. But I think Nikki, I remember her name, Nikki, the beauty of her being in the way she is in Molly's life is that she is able to just hold the truth of who Molly is and what is happening to her without the judgment that comes at her from so many, so many different people in that show. And she just can witness and hold it. And she offers her something that that most important relationship, her husband, couldn't offer her.

Danielle Savory 21:28

Yes, yes, like the nonjudgment, there is such a big piece because I think even when it comes to close friends, that's not a guarantee either. Like there's very few spaces where it really can.I mean, you and I are both coaches, right? And so it's kind of our job to hold space for like non-judgmental, you know, like observation, awareness, like curiosity. But outside of like the professional realm, not very many people have somebody they can trust to open up to to feel safe in their nervous system with and to not automatically feel like they're going to be judged for what they share.

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:06

That's such a good point. And so if you're listening to this, and you're thinking about, you know, do I have a friend that I could begin to talk about this with? Maybe you do. So Danielle, if someone is listening and wondering, like, do I have a friend, like Nikki, do I have someone who could witness or help me better understand myself without judgment? How might they open up that conversation?

Danielle Savory 22:35

Yeah, well, I think it's the first thing is we just want to take a moment to meet ourselves, because I know that if I were to ask myself that question or realize I didn't have a person like that in my life, my immediate place would be my brain's default is like self-rejection, right? Like, I can't believe I don't have somebody in my life like that. And before, for any of you listening that are like me that that's the first place you go like, there I am again doing it wrong, or I don't even have or like this place of like, laughter, lack or self defecation is to start with like, like, of course, like, it's okay, like, like, I see you. Now you've just identified something you want, like every time we notice there might be this thing that we don't have, like, instead of just thinking, oh, it's I don't have, it's like, oh, my gosh, like, that does like, okay, like that, that might hurt a little bit, like, it makes sense. And now you know, you want to have that kind of relationship with somebody. Now you know, you want to like, open up to the universe to bring this person in, or for you to maybe start having conversation with somebody you already know and trust and then navigating whether or not they might be that person. And so coming back to like, whether or not they they are your person is you can ask, right, you can ask like, Hey, these are some things that I've really been exploring in my own mind. These are some things that are really interesting to me. Like, are you open to having conversation about this? Like, how would you feel if we talked about this, you know, and just asking kind of upfront is how I think that I would do that with one of my friends. The other thing that I have just gotten feedback on because I always have been very comfortable with this topic is you present your own comfortability, even if maybe you're not really that comfortable with it yet. Like, what are you comfortable and just being that person that owns it and says it because right then and there, like when I stopped started like making like, you know, these kind of funny jokes about like, I called them pity titties, like after I like breastfed, my boobs just started like falling into my armpits. I was like, you know what I'm talking about, like pity titties, like the amount of shock on a lot of women's face like, oh my god, like, are you really saying that? But then the other people they're like, yeah, and then they just started saying the same thing. I was like, you're my people. So if you're kind of like out there and daring like I am in these certain social situations, you can also kind of test the waters by, you know, first creating own safety, I've got my own back knowing how you're going to go home and your brain is going to be like, did you say too much?

Danielle Savory 25:21

Did you ostracize yourself? Like, are you that, you know, are you that person? And be like, no matter what, this is what I'm still going to believe about myself. But you can practice, especially in other New York situations where people are around just going outside of like the normal topics, like being a little bit of an overshare, sharing a couple of things, and then seeing how it lands, because right away, you'll kind of get a feel of

somebody like leaning in or joking or giving you a look or like the energy will be there. It's like, I could probably talk to them more about this. Yes.

Sara Bybee Fisk 25:55

Yes, the times when I have spoken up almost universally, it's been like, oh my god, me too, right? Oh, you know, I am wondering the same thing. I have some questions too. And especially among, you know, friendships where there is some existing emotional connection, right? Yeah, there's there's some existing infrastructure where you have been sharing and talking about your lives. I think that's a really great place to open up this conversation because here is what I know. We have been kind of tricked into really siloed lives, right? It's like me in my house with my family, my husband, and we need other women. We need their stories. We need their experiences. We need their wisdom. We need their mistakes, their vulnerability, their words. In a way that I don't think I fully appreciated until very recently. Like, I love I have so many good men in my life. And there are very few men that I allow now to teach me anything or talk to me. I'm done with men telling me things, right? Because that's been my whole life. I want women's voices. And Nikki is one of those I just the beautiful way that she just opens her whole life up and in some ways I was like, girl, are you like destroying your own life for Molly? And she's like, yes, I am. And I love her. I can't not do it. And so everybody gets to watch and kind of make their own judgments about the dynamics in that relationship. But what I know is that we need the voices of other women and we heal best in settings with other women. So many of the wounds that we don't even know are there. And so I just love this aspect of our conversation.

Danielle Savory 27:55

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you're saying that about like, the women because I think it is being witnessed in it. But then also, it's just that, you know, I've always seen this like in my group coaching programs, or like my workshops that I do where it's like multiple women is the minute a woman asks a question, or the minute she shares something, you feel like a collective sigh of relief for like, like actually see their shoulders drop away from their ears. Because in that moment, what you're witnessing is actually a test of self- compassion is actually like this beautiful moment of un, you know, prescribed self- compassion, because that is a moment a woman realizes she's not alone. And being like seen it through somebody else's story through their question through their sharing, and that all of a sudden for the first time, you're like, wait, it's not just me, or I'm not broken. It's such this like visceral sigh of relief, and like this safety to your nervous system, that really does give you permission to continue to explore like these conversations. But I think that really does happen so much in community and, you know, historically speaking, in so many different ways, that we just don't experience as much now, you know, not to say that a lot of the gatherings in the 50s were definitely not without

judgment. But there was still like these like regular gatherings, like my my Grammy used to get together and play bridge all the time. She was part of like a quilt club, you know, I mean, I still do think we have like book clubs and that kind of thing. But these actual purposeful like gatherings where even though you might be like stitching, you are sharing or something comes up or like a piece of advice like these, like containers that allow us to witness one another, learn from one another and then walk away usually with a little bit of self-compassion.

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:01

Yeah, so important. One of the things that really struck me was the grief that Molly felt around never having had an orgasm with another person. Yes, orgasms are fraught things for many women because of our programming about how they're supposed to happen, what they're supposed to look like, what you're supposed to do to get one, what's wrong with you if you don't have one. What are your thoughts there?

Danielle Savory 30:31

I mean, I have so many we could talk about this for like six hours, but really I do think that the main thing comes back to judgment, you know, judgment, like you said of how it's supposed to look, what is okay, what isn't okay, and a willingness to move into discomfort, like that's the other really big part, you know, one of the things that I noticed even in myself and also in my clients is what I call it's a first thought, right? It's like that first like default thought you have in response to something and usually most of us see that first thought and it's truth, right? It's like if your partner brings something up and maybe you feel like it feels like outside of your comfort zone normally and your first thought is like, yuck, like why do they want that or like really that's what you want or like this immediate judgment or that creates this stuckness and creates us actually from pursuing these further because we assume that first thought that comes from our subconscious mind, our default thinking that has been wired and programmed in is like our instinct or likely like what we actually want versus it just being like, oh no, this is just the programmed response. And so I think when it comes to like, that's where the judgment usually happens. And so it doesn't create a safe space for us to even question, for us to even explore further because usually we shut down so many of like our desires or what we want with immediate, like what we've been told is okay or what we've been told it should look like and then we make it about us and not on top of that, the nervous system response really makes it hard to move past this place of feeling triggered in your body to being curious and this potential for pleasure. So understanding kind of like the mechanisms at play, I think are so important because we can see them, right? Like you can see, like I can see in my brain throws out a first thought and I'm like, okay, that's my first thought. But what is my intention? Like what do I actually think? And then noticing how often that first thought already triggers my nervous system. So if I am going to get

further, even if it's just a place of self-inquiry, or if it's like physically, I'm going to explore something like knowing how to again, collaborate with your body and your nervous system to create enough safety so that you're willing and this doesn't mean that you just are totally relaxed. I think that's the other thing a lot of people misunderstand about when it comes to going after sexual desire. Like a lot of times you are going to feel a little bit activated. That isn't a bad thing because we want a little bit of that activation because that is the thing that creates the butterflies. That's the thing that creates more arousal. Like that actually could be the thing that turns you on and it doesn't have to be a complete shutdown. That was kind of a roundabout answer, but I think I got to what you were asking.

Sara Bybee Fisk 33:37

Yeah. And I love that the show let us see that, right? Her activation, her nervousness. And just the idea of first thoughts, I think that's so brilliant, because we aren't even responsible for a lot of those first thoughts, right? They were taught to us, right? I, you know, Mormonism, the religious background that I come from, it's a whole lot of don'ts. There's do not, don't even think about it. You're bad if you're thinking about this, you know, shame and repression. And then all of a sudden you get married and now it's okay. But it's only okay up to a certain point, only certain things are okay. So those first thoughts aren't even yours all the time. And I kind of the metaphor that I have for me right now in this area of sexual exploration in my own life is I have a box, this metaphorical box of all these things that I was told, no, never don't even think about it. And I'm taking the box out and I'm just putting everything on the table. And I'm just looking at it from a place of curiosity and neutrality. It's not good or bad. Like I let somebody else tell me this was good. That's bad. This is good. That's bad. That person is gone, right? All the men are gone. And if something's going to be off the table, I want to take it off for reasons that I like, for reasons that make sense for me, for my relationship with my husband, but I'm not going to let someone else tell me that that's good or bad. But that doesn't mean that the first thoughts aren't still there. Right? When I'm looking at the contents of my box, right?

Danielle Savory 35:25
No pun intended. No pun intended.

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:28
I didn't even get to that. Thank you. Thank you, sex coach, Danielle.

Danielle Savory 35:32

you're welcome. You can count on me for those sexual innuendo jokes. You know, like the other thing I love that you're like, we can just assume the other metaphor that I love to work with, and this is really helpful when it comes to first thoughts, is imagining yourself at a bus station and you didn't, you know, like bus number five takes you to like the part of town that you don't like, like you don't feel good there, it shuts you down, you feel kind of like on edge, all of this sort of thing, and like you've gone on bus five enough that you're like, this doesn't ever take me to where I want to go, but you're like, but bus 25 does, and you're standing at a bus station because what happens at bus stations? Buses come and bus five shows up and you're just pissed. You're like, why is bus five here again? Like bus five shouldn't be here. I decided I didn't even want bus five, and it's like, no, we can just assume bus five, bus four, bus three, bus two, bus one, the one that you first bust on when you were a kid is always going to come through the bus station. We don't need to make it a big deal. We just remember like, oh, of course it is. Like there's that bus. I am at a bus station. It's like, that's my brain. Of course it's going to come up. Of course these thoughts are going to come up, and I'm practicing remembering what bus I am wanting to get on because that is the one that takes me to my destination. And then also having grace, like sometimes you're like scrolling your phone. You're not paying attention. You get on bus five. You're wondering why it stinks. Your legs are sticking to the seat. Like everything's uncomfortable, and you're like, oh shit, it's because I'm on bus five again. Ding, ding, ding. Just get off the bus. Go to the station and wait for bus 25 again.

Sara Bybee Fisk 37:20

Love, love. Molly's exploration is pretty radical, right? And it's, it's driven by her timeline, right? The mortality aspect of the show. And I know that there are a lot of women, I talk to them, they're my clients, they're my friends, who are wondering, is this it for sex for me? Like sex, sex isn't like bad or terrible necessarily, maybe in some cases it is. But what if I want something more? And I'm not necessarily dealing with the mortality timeline that Molly was, but what does a sexual relationship with yourself look like? And a lot of women listening to this, my clients, your clients, you know, women who are interested in a greater degree of self-knowledge, right? Maybe beyond masturbation or just knowing what their, you know, sexual desires are. Where do they begin? Molly's exploration was pretty radical, right? With her mortality timeline. And I can understand a lot of people not being comfortable already for that and not needing to because they're not dying of cancer. But we all are dying, right? But just I'm interested in your thoughts there.

Danielle Savory 38:41

Yeah, you know, and I've asked myself this question, and I will continue to ask it. And for me, one of the places that I think is just really healthy to start is reading, like reading, like actually kind of like what's out there. And I don't mean like reading and just finding out like, Oh, you could use a butt plug, or there's these kind of vibrators, like, great, do that. But I have found just fun, even in romance novels, or smut, or, you know, audios, like audio, erotic audio, like erotica.

Sara Bybee Fisk 39:23

is one app that's been recommended to me by Maggie and Melissa you know who they are yes

Danielle Savory 39:30

Yes. So, you know, listening to this kind of stuff, you'll start to notice like, oh, that gives me a little bit of tingles, or I kind of like that, or maybe like you don't like that, right? You know, so even just exposing yourself, and I personally have found it to be more beneficial when I explore this when it is in story, where I have some identification maybe with like the character or something like that versus just like, oh, there's this act you can do, or you could do this position like that, to me, doesn't really give me much insight of like, that sounds hot, or that feels good, because you're just looking at it more from this like mechanical sort of view. So for me, like seeing context does help and seeing or hearing context, reading context has kind of helped. But the thing that has even resonated with me more than the acts and the acts might come is the tone. So I like to think of like, the tone of an experience that I'm wanting to have, knowing that if you start to pursue a particular tone, and there might be more than one tone, right? Like, there are certain times in my cycle where I might want more like wild or like raw or like animalistic or like, kind of like a dominating sort of tone or a submissive sort of tone. And then there might be other times where emotionally, I feel a little bit more vulnerable and tender, and it's more like a tone of romance or just like care and appreciation, you know, so I think more than just exploring what's out there as far as toys, acts, things to do is start to feel like, as I'm listening to these stories, like, what is the tone of it? What is kind of like the ambiance of this experience and trusting that if you lean into, I want it to feel more like this, that can help a conversation with yourself and also with your partner about maybe it's just how you're acting, who you're being, what you're thinking about, but there also could be some things that you want to bring in that kind of color and like fill out that experience a little bit more.

Sara Bybee Fisk 41:59

I love that idea of tone. That's such a really interesting way to look at that. I also know that there are people who are listening who are gonna be like, okay, so I can listen to some smut, check, check. I know the tone, but to ask is so vulnerable. Like, how do I build the structure around being able to ask for something? Because one of the scenes that was so poignant to me that I really identified with, Molly is tied up in the back of, what is it, pottery barn? We don't even know. And so the character who's playing the Dom wants her to ask for something, and she just is struggling. And I think in that scene, it's because she doesn't know yet what she wants, but she finally gets out like one little thing that she wants. But I also have experience and think just the vulnerability of asking for something with all of that social programming about, be a woman who is desirable, but don't have this wild desire of your own. What are your thoughts about that?

Danielle Savory 43:10

Yeah, I think number one is just acknowledging that, right? How vulnerable, aka scary. Yeah, it actually is. And starting there, like, Oh, like, of course, this is scary. Like, of course, this makes you nervous. You know, of course, your heart is like pitter pattering. Like, this is kind of like uncharted territory. You haven't had this represented. Like, that's the other thing to really understand is like, we haven't actually seen representation of very many women asking for what they want, especially in the vulnerable context of sexuality and pleasure. And so that acknowledgement alone offers such a, you know, a balm to your nervous system to just kind of calm down and make it not something you're doing wrong, but also making the fear not wrong, that this is something that is a little bit scary. And how can I meet myself? And sometimes, that is a lot of the work before you even ask. And then the other thing that I have, you know, worked with my clients is first, like, starting to identify on your own, and noticing the moments you do want to ask, and you don't, and starting to see, like, why didn't I just without judgment again, and just this curiosity, like, what was I afraid of in that moment? Because sometimes it's, you know, I mean, usually in vulnerability, it's like a fear of rejection, we're afraid that the thing that we want to do is going to be rejected, the idea that we have might be yucked, that we are going to feel ostracized, that it's going to create distance between our partner and ourselves, that they're not going to like us that they're going to think we're dirty or wrong for asking. And so when you start to identify those, then you really can see the holes that need to be met, and the healing, and the safety that you need to create around those beliefs or those fears that you've identified. And I also like to just make it, instead of just being like, I'm going to just say what I want, you can also bring in a collaborative conversation. And I would recommend because we're already vulnerable, and we're naked, and we're doing it, you know, so maybe not during, but another time, like, hey, like, and just be honest, like, this makes me a little nervous. But like, I'd love to have a conversation about sex, like, when would be a good time? Or I want to just, you know, I'm thinking more about this, like, as we continue into this next chapter of our life, and then having a kind of conversation where you're like, you know, ask, ask both of you, like, what is something you've always wanted to try, you know, or what is something

you've always fantasized about, like, and be clear, because it's also might be hard for you to hear something that your partner is bringing up. And so allowing like both of it, like, this is safe, but we can just bring like one thing up, or one thing that we've thought about.

Danielle Savory 46:10

And that can start to just kind of get the ball rolling. But I think more important than anything is like, how can I create safety with myself? How can I create a strategy? Like if your fear is like, they're gonna say blah, blah, blah, like, create a strategy ahead of time of how you're going to meet yourself and be on your own side, no matter what. That for me has helped so much with these kind of conversations is because you want to just like, have them respond great, right? Of course, we all do, but we don't know. And so that's what vulnerability is, you don't know. And so really, like having a strategy, how am I going to create safety ahead of time, creating safety in the conversation, and then a strategy for afterwards, how will you what are you going to say to yourself? Not like, See, I told you, you shouldn't have said that. Now you're abandoning you again, right? That's why I think that this is such a practice of like true self intimacy. Because not only are you being vulnerable with somebody else, you're being vulnerable and honest with yourself, but you have to have that back end part of like, I am going to be there for you no matter what.

Sara Bybee Fisk 47:17

I love that. And I'll just put in a plug, my never-ending crusade to have women check their hormones and see if HRT hormone replacement therapy is something you also have to have the hormonal support to be able to enjoy and explore. And I think again, you know, kind of circling back to programming, we have such stories about how our sexuality is supposed to just kind of wane and go away as we get older. But I know so many women in perimenopause and menopause are having the best sex of their lives, because they have created this kind of not just safety structure, and vulnerability structure, but they also are getting the health support that they need. And that's something you talked about with your doctor, right? To be able to really enjoy pleasure well into, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s. And God, that's what I want.

Danielle Savory 48:18

Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to say this caveat because I hear, you know, from being out there, it's like all of us naturally, this isn't judgment on anybody, want a quick fix. And from working with so many clients going through perimenopause and menopause and witnessing their journey with pleasure, the hormones, knowing like that they can help,

right, but like, that doesn't cure your programming. Like, right? Yeah. And so that like, this is like one piece of the puzzle. Because if you've never brought up to the surface, why am I resisting pleasure? If you've never brought up to the surface, like why am I not feeling connection with my husband? Why you don't feel safe being vulnerable? Why you've never explored your own desires? I don't care how much HRT you do, you're still going to come up short. And that is something that's not being said in this hormone conversation that I really want to make an important point of because I've seen so many women hoping like this is it, this is going to fix my libido and not that it can't make a difference. It can I have like experienced it on my own. But I've also done a lot of like this work where it was like, it wasn't bad before. Like that's the thing is we're like, Yeah, I want that it must be my hormones. But if you look even before you are in perimenopause, like, you probably weren't exploring pleasure or exploring your desires, or even what you knew ahead of time hormones doesn't do that. And I see so many women really, like, like doubling down on the belief, I am broken because now they've gone to the hormone replacement therapy and things still aren't shifting the way that they want. And that's because there's this subconscious stuff, there's our nervous system work, there's communication that needs to happen with yourself and your partner still in order to actually pursue pleasure.

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:11

That is such a great point. Thank you for making that. Hormones will not do that work for you.

Danielle Savory 50:16

Yes. They're great. They can really help in so many things. I am 100% with you. Every single woman should go and take a look at this. It's not the only thing. Diet isn't the only thing to feel healthy and fit. There's so many other elements.

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:33

I love this conversation. Is there anything that you haven't gotten to say that you really wanted to make sure you put into words? I mean, I know we could talk for another six hours.

Danielle Savory 50:45

The only thing that I think that I just want to come back to that we briefly mentioned and just kind of like a takeaway is the thing that you're going to see in this show over and

over and over is the struggle for her to be able to orgasm with somebody else versus just with herself, right? And I just want to like normalize it in the way that like, if that's you, and that's what you're experiencing, like, you're not broken again, like coming back to like, that's totally understandable, and it's okay. And it is because we have created enough safety for ourselves to explore our pleasure and our desire. And we don't have to be as vulnerable when it's just with ourselves, where that piece of vulnerability and intimacy does come into play with another person. And so if that is you, and you're listening to this, like, welcome to the club totally normal. And this is where we get to, you know, have the opportunity to kind of move into the more challenging side of things sometimes, which is being vulnerable and moving through that discomfort and creating the safety of that vulnerability.

Sara Bybee Fisk 51:57

Thank you, Danielle. That was right on. I'm so grateful for you and for the conversations we have had that have been really important for me. If people want to find you, find out more about your work and what you do, where should they go?

Danielle Savory 52:11

Yeah, you can go to my website daniellesavory.com. I'm on instagram at danielle.savory. I'm trying to start on TikTok. I don't even know my handle. You can probably just put in my name and you'll recognize me. And then other than that, even though I'm not currently recording new episodes, it's my pleasure is a 200 episode library of like, pure knowledge about all of this stuff when it comes to sexuality pleasure. And so many of our obstacles.

Sara Bybee Fisk 52:44
Thanks again. Love you, friend. You too.

Danielle Savory 52:47 Thanks for having me.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 5/20/25 Sara Bybee Fisk 5/20/25

Episode 115 - "Dying for Sex" with Danielle Savory

Send us a text So many women blame themselves for their people-pleasing tendencies–I can’t speak up, I apologize too much, I have to avoid conflict at all costs…

So many women are not experiencing the sex, orgasms, and intimacy they genuinely want. Often, they blame themselves for this or settle for the belief that “this is just as good as it gets.” But it doesn’t have to be that way. I’m so excited to welcome back master certified coach, podcast host, and sexual pleasure and intimacy expert Danielle Savory. In this episode, we dive into the powerful themes of the newly released series "Dying for Sex" and explore the larger conversation about the self-intimacy and vulnerability that is required for women to understand and advocate for their sexual wants and needs. Here’s what we cover:

The harmful cultural narratives that continue to shape women’s experiences of sexuality
How developing intimacy with yourself helps you overcome obstacles to pleasure
Why our healing and exploration thrive in the presence of other women
How to open up a conversation around sexuality with a friend
The role of the body and nervous system in cultivating openness and curiosity around pleasure
Practical starting points for women ready to explore their sexual desire

I can't wait for you to listen!

Check out the series "Dying for Sex": https://www.imdb.com/title/

Find Danielle here:

https://www.instagram.com/danielle.savory/

https://www.daniellesavory.com/podcast

Find Sara here:

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

https://pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations

Transcript

Sara Bybee Fisk 00:57
Danielle Savory, I am so glad that we get to have this conversation.

Danielle Savory 01:02
Me too. I have been looking forward to it ever since you sent me the text like let's do this

Sara Bybee Fisk 01:07

What do you want people to know? I mean, everybody already knows who you are. But for those who are late to the game, Daniel Savory sex coach, what do you want people to know about you?

Danielle Savory 01:17

Sara Bybee Fisk 03:08

Danielle Savory 06:08

Sara Bybee Fisk 09:31

Danielle Savory 10:35 Orgasms, like, heal.

Sara Bybee Fisk 10:36

Danielle Savory 10:54

Sara Bybee Fisk 13:57

Danielle Savory 14:30
Yeah, yeah, what's wrong with you?

Sara Bybee Fisk 14:32
What are some of the other kind of cultural, patriarchal bullshit that comes up for you?

Danielle Savory 14:38

Sara Bybee Fisk 15:44

Danielle Savory 16:15

Sara Bybee Fisk 17:36

Danielle Savory 18:38

Sara Bybee Fisk 20:40

Danielle Savory 21:28

Sara Bybee Fisk 22:06

Danielle Savory 22:35

Danielle Savory 25:21

somebody like leaning in or joking or giving you a look or like the energy will be there. It's like, I could probably talk to them more about this. Yes.

Sara Bybee Fisk 25:55

Danielle Savory 27:55

Sara Bybee Fisk 30:01

Danielle Savory 30:31

Sara Bybee Fisk 33:37

Danielle Savory 35:25
No pun intended. No pun intended.

Sara Bybee Fisk 35:28
I didn't even get to that. Thank you. Thank you, sex coach, Danielle.

Danielle Savory 35:32

Sara Bybee Fisk 37:20

Danielle Savory 38:41

Sara Bybee Fisk 39:23

is one app that's been recommended to me by Maggie and Melissa you know who they are yes

Danielle Savory 39:30

Sara Bybee Fisk 41:59

Danielle Savory 43:10

Danielle Savory 46:10

Sara Bybee Fisk 47:17

Danielle Savory 48:18

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:11

That is such a great point. Thank you for making that. Hormones will not do that work for you.

Danielle Savory 50:16

Sara Bybee Fisk 50:33

I love this conversation. Is there anything that you haven't gotten to say that you really wanted to make sure you put into words? I mean, I know we could talk for another six hours.

Danielle Savory 50:45

The only thing that I think that I just want to come back to that we briefly mentioned and just kind of like a takeaway is the thing that you're going to see in this show over and

Sara Bybee Fisk 51:57

Danielle Savory 52:11

Sara Bybee Fisk 52:44
Thanks again. Love you, friend. You too.

Danielle Savory 52:47 Thanks for having me.

Download The Transcript Here

Join the Free Stop People Pleasing Facebook Community

Sara Bybee Fisk 5/13/25 Sara Bybee Fisk 5/13/25

Episode 114 - Being Bullied and Becoming a People Pleaser

Send us a text So many women blame themselves for their people-pleasing tendencies–I can’t speak up, I apologize too much, I have to avoid conflict at all costs…

Many women who struggle with people-pleasing often blame themselves, but these habits are usually rooted in deeper issues that are beyond our control. There can be various underlying causes, but in this episode, I share how my personal experiences with bullying have influenced my people-pleasing tendencies. If recalling your own experiences of being bullied brings up strong emotions--it’s okay to skip this episode if it feels too tender. But if you’re ready, I invite you to explore how these early wounds may have influenced your people-pleasing—and how healing starts with self-compassion, not self-criticism. Here’s what I cover:

An overview of the four nervous system responses—fight, flight, freeze, and fawn
A deep dive into the “fawn” nervous system response and how it connects bullying to people-pleasing
How bullying-related shame impacts our sense of worthiness
A visualization exercise that uses arts work to help you heal your inner child
Why being attuned to others’ needs might actually be a trauma response
A compassionate question to ask yourself that will reveal the beliefs you formed about safety and belonging

Dr. Ramani Clip: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DHL5jFLMbE2/?hl=en

Find Sara here: