Have you ever felt like you’re in trouble, even as an adult? Like you’re not doing enough for other people, someone is disappointed in you, or there’s always something you need to make right? This is the experience that coach Kristen Carder explores in her book You’re Not in Trouble: The ADHD Guide to Building Healthy, Connected Relationships. In this conversation, you’ll hear why relationships can feel so difficult when you have ADHD or grew up in an environment where you were taught to put everyone else’s needs above your own. Kristen shares practical frameworks to help you understand your relationships, recognize what’s working and what isn’t, and finally have the tools to be honest about what you want from your relationships.
How long have you been putting off the hard conversation? Join Sara live for one hour for her free workshop, SPEAK UP. There’s no replay, so bring the conversation you keep avoiding. You’ll learn the Three Speak Up Skills and figure out what’s keeping you stuck.
Here’s what you’ll uncover in this episode:
The ways that You’re Not in Trouble will help you map out your relationships
Why other people’s reactions can have such a strong impact on your sense of security in relationships
How to recognize the difference between mutual, asymmetrical, and parasitic relationships
How relationship tiers can help you decide how much time, energy, and vulnerability to invest in different people
Why it’s never too late to renegotiate a relationship and ask for what you need
Find Kristen here:
www.instagram.com/i.have.adhd.podcast
www.facebook.com/ihaveadhdpodcast
Register for SPEAK UP: sarafisk.coach/voice
Find Sara here:
youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
Transcript
Sara Bybee Fisk 00:58
One of the most enduring feelings I had growing up around relationships was that of being in trouble, of not doing enough for other people, of other people being disappointed in me. Maybe you can relate. And it took me a long time to realize that that feeling of being in trouble was not consistent with being an adult. Like, adults, unless you've broken the law, you're not in trouble as an adult. And so when I read my friend Kristen Carter's new book, You're Not in Trouble: The ADHD Guide to Building Healthy, Connected Relationships, it was the book I wished I had had. The interview that you're about to hear is with Kristen, and we get into the nitty-gritty of why some relationships are especially hard for people with ADHD, and honestly, why they're hard even when you don't have ADHD. And so listen to this episode and buy Kristen's book because whether you're someone who has ADHD or some type of other neurodivergence or not, this is a really solid book with some incredibly helpful frameworks that will help you understand how healthy adult relationships works, and that's great for all of us.All right, Kristen, are you ready to dive into a five-hour discussion about your amazing book?
Kristen Carder 02:19
I'm so ready.
Sara Bybee Fisk 02:22
I've got my snacks. I've got my water. Okay.
Kristen Carder 02:24
I love it. Oh my gosh.
Sara Bybee Fisk 02:27
I absolutely loved reading this book-
Kristen Carder 02:30
Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 02:30
... because it does what I think is rare to do in a really good self-help book. It validates an experience that is difficult to put into words sometimes.
Kristen Carder 02:44
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 02:44
And also gives such clear, actionable things to- frameworks to help evaluate definitions of things, and it's, it's just so incredibly valuable. And we're talking about your book, You're Not in Trouble, which can I tell you how much I love that title?Can you tell me a little bit about how that book got its title?
Kristen Carder 03:09
Yes. Well, thank you for having me. I was just so happy to talk to you, and I just love your face and your, your vibe and your smile. It's just so good to be with you. I just feel at home when I'm chatting with you, so I appreciate you having me.Um, how did the book get its title? Well, I will say as a parent of three children, it was far more difficult to title this book than it was to name any of my three boys. It's so hard to title a book. And, um, uh, it's not self-published, which means that I don't have full ownership over what the title is, and so we went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth with the editors and the publishers forever and ever and ever and ever. And we just never seemed to land on something that I was like, "Yes, that is the one." And I was, um, melting down, uh, on a... I was chatting on WhatsApp with my agent, a literary agent, which I- two years ago I didn't even know what a literary agent was, but, um, they're a thing.
Sara Bybee Fisk 04:11
Yeah. Now you do, now you do.
Kristen Carder 04:12
And I'm very lucky and privileged to have one. Her name is Jessica Killingly. And, um, I was chatting with her and I was like, "We are not there. Like, we don't have it." And I was just whining about it really, and she was like... She asked me a really important question, which was, "How do you want people to feel? How do you want people to feel when they're done reading this book? Um, how do they currently feel?" And I said, "They're currently feeling like they can't do anything right, and they're always in trouble." And as I, I, like, sent that text and then I was like, "Oh my gosh, You're Not in Trouble," and she texted back, "You're not in trouble." And I was like, "Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes." So that's how we came to it was like, how do we really want people to feel?We want them to feel like they're not in trouble. We don't want you to feel like you're perfect. You're not. Nobody is. We don't want you to feel like you can do nothing wrong and that, like, "You're fine, you're fine." No, it's just like even as you navigate the world as an imperfect human with ADHD, you're not in trouble. Grown-ups don't get in trouble. That, that's a big part that I'd, like, come back to is just, like, unless you're breaking the law, like, uh, uh, if you're, you know, stealing money from your company, okay. If you're sleeping with your boss's wife, okay. Sure. Like, if we're breaking the law, then you get in trouble, but other than that, I don't consent. I do not consent to getting in trouble, and I do not consent to feeling like I am in trouble any longer.
Sara Bybee Fisk 05:48
When I read the title, it just hit that deepest part I think that every single woman that I work with has this part that still feels deeply- Insecure. And it's a lot like your own story.They get to the point where they are managing some of their symptoms, they're getting things done. They, from the outside, have the, the look of capability. Like, she, she can get it done. Give it to Kristen. She can handle it. sara can handle it. She actually doesn't need help. She's amazing, right? She does it all on her own. But inside, there's a deep feeling of insecurity.
Kristen Carder 06:32
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 06:32
And when I point out how childlike that feeling is, they're like, "Wait a second, you're right."
Kristen Carder 06:41
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 06:41
It's like, I don't feel, in those moments when my boss is asking me a question about how I came to this particular conclusion, I don't feel like a 45-year-old professional.
Kristen Carder 06:52
Right.
Sara Bybee Fisk 06:52
I feel like I need to have the right answer or he's gonna get mad at me.
Kristen Carder 06:56
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 06:57
When my husband asks me where I put the car keys, I'm like, "Shit, I can't..." I, I feel like I'm a kid who's about to get in trouble. And so they struggle to know what they're allowed to ask for-
Kristen Carder 07:09
Mm
Sara Bybee Fisk 07:09
... what they're allowed to say, and the feeling of disappointing someone else-
Kristen Carder 07:15
Mm
Sara Bybee Fisk 07:16
... and the feeling of needing something feel like I would rather the earth just open up and swallow me whole.
Kristen Carder 07:24
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 07:25
And so much of that experience was exactly what you described.
Kristen Carder 07:29
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 07:30
So you were approaching 40. You had managed to figure out your ADHD. You had a lot of success professionally, and yet you were still feeling like a child in a lot of your relationships.
Kristen Carder 07:45
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 07:45
And I wonder if you could just kind of take us back-
Kristen Carder 07:47
Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 07:48
... to what that was like for you.
Kristen Carder 07:50
Yeah, so around age 35, I started, 30, 35, I started to really research ADHD in an effort to help the students that I was working with. So I owned a little learning center in my community, was attracting all these ADHD students, and I knew I was diagnosed with ADHD.I was medicated on and off, which I go into in the book, but I didn't really know much about it other than, like, you struggle to focus. Like, no shit. Um, and so when I began to research ADHD and come to a deeper understanding of like, oh, pretty much everything I hate about myself is connected to a symptom of ADHD, like oh, okay. Then I really started to take it seriously, and I really started to give myself a lot of support, and at the same time I was starting this podcast that I have, and I was getting coaching certifications, which you were my, um... What did we call it? What were you?
Sara Bybee Fisk 08:48
Um-
Kristen Carder 08:48
I don't know. Anyway, you were my group leader.
Sara Bybee Fisk 08:50
Yeah.
Kristen Carder 08:50
And thank you so much. I learned so much from you. And, um, all of that was happening, and I was finally able to follow through on the things that I wanted to follow through on, and I was finally feeling productive, and my finances were finally under control for the first time ever literally in my entire life, and I was, like, feeling like I'd really made it in so many ways, and just so grateful for that.Like, really attributing that to learning about ADHD and, um, taking it seriously and giving myself a lot of support. But in my relationships, I felt so wobbly, and I felt like my comfort level in relationships was highly dependent on other people's reactions to me. So if someone reacted positively, then I was allowed to feel really, really good. But if someone was confused or a little off or maybe a little short or upset, then I would spiral, and not only would I spiral, but it would derail my entire day. I would lose sleep, you know, for weeks on end. I would try to figure out what I did wrong. I would ruminate. I would just, uh, just be so distracted by the relationships in my life, and that would go for, like, my kids, my parents, my husband, my friends, the people that I interacted with at church. It w- it didn't matter who it was. It was so distracting to me to navigate relationships and try to be all things to all people, which I now know is impossible. But boy, did I try, um, and I really did put on a great little song and dance for 40 years for the people in my life. I mean, song and dance queen over here, okay? Which included, but is not limited to, like, people-pleasing and lying and pretending I was okay when I wasn't okay. That's what I mean by lying. Um, and just really trying to make everybody else very happy. I was extremely outwardly focused in my relationships. It's my job to make sure that everyone else is happy, and if they're not happy, then it's my fault, and so I need to do something differently in order to make them happy, or I am not safe. And if I am not safe, then I can't, uh, do anything. So my brain is just so hyper-fixated on creating safety for myself. I understand all of that now. I wouldn't have been able to articulate it. I, I don't know if I could have even maybe, maybe, maybe five years ago. Maybe, maybe. But, like, it, it took a lot of work in order to be able to articulate it, including four years of intense therapy and lots of hours of coaching and thousands of dollars spent trying to figure out my brain and my body and what was going on. And, and what I'm so excited about is that I was able to distill that down and put it all into a $30 book, because I spent thousands of dollars trying to figure it out, and I, I just don't... Not everybody can do that, and I don't want everybody to have to do that, and this is the book that I needed so desperately. Um, but that's pretty much how it was. I mean, I was afraid of my kids. I was afraid of my husband. I was afraid of my parents. I was afraid of my, uh, everybody.
Kristen Carder 12:18
I was just scared, scared all the time, just like, "Am I safe?" And if not, then I need to contort myself in order to make sure that I can get back to equilibrium in all of my relationships.
Sara Bybee Fisk 12:35
That experience is, I mean, sometimes when you're talking, I have to literally put my hand over my own mouth to not jump in and be like, "Yeah," and, and because it is so... I mean, if, if you are listening to this and that feels familiar, you are in the best company-
Kristen Carder 12:52
Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 12:52
... because that describes how I was feeling, that describes how the women I work with feel. And one of the gifts of this book is that it actually helps you describe and map out these relationships that feel so painful, right?
Kristen Carder 13:10
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 13:10
One of the things I realized more clearly while reading your book is that we work so hard just to get our relationships to a point where they don't pinch or hurt as much, and we're like, "Okay, they're, they're stable," or they just have, you know, rolling hills of disruption instead of the peaks and valleys that they used to be, and we get so focused on being, "Okay, I'm less anxious, I'm less reactive, I'm less afraid," that we don't actually stop to examine the relationship itself.
Kristen Carder 13:45
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 13:46
We don't look under the hood and ask like, "How is this thing actually running?"
Kristen Carder 13:51
Mm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 13:52
"How does, how is this working for us?" And so one of my favorite frameworks in your book is the relationship framework and how you talk about relationships as being mutual-
Kristen Carder 14:05
Yeah
Sara Bybee Fisk 14:05
... asymmetrical or parasitic.
Kristen Carder 14:07
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 14:09
Can you explain those categories and how they change or have the ability to change your understanding of our responsibilities in relationships?
Kristen Carder 14:19
Yes, absolutely. So as someone who's ADHD, I have a neurodivergent brain, and I think that like this is basic information, but I just never really grasped it. I was never explicitly taught that there are different types of relationships. And so I actually needed someone to look me in the face and say, "Do you know that not every relationship is exactly the same?" And, uh, like, it was an, such an aha moment for me because as someone... And again, I'm not sure if this is a neurodivergence thing, if this is a growing up in dysfunction thing, or if this is just a me thing, but I thought that in order to be an authentic person, that I need to be the exact same version of myself with everyone. And if I wasn't the exact same version of myself with everyone, then I was a liar, then I wasn't being real, then I wasn't being authentic. So I would give the fullness of myself to my husband and my best friend, but also the cashier at my grocery store or like my child's teacher, right? Like, I would try so hard to be the same version of myself in every relationship, not realizing that actually the power dynamics in relationships matter a lot.And when you understand power dynamics, you can assess how much of yourself you should give and how much you should be receiving on the other end. And so I go into the three types of relationships. M-mutual relationships are the types of relationships that we think about most often, and I literally thought that every single relationship was a mutual relationship. Spoiler alert, it's not. But a mutual relationship is a relationship in which you're standing on the same level, so the power dynamic is equal. There's mutuality. There's reciprocity. This would include friends, siblings, maybe coworkers who are on the same like, uh, level as you at work, um, maybe a neighbor. So those are mutual relationships, okay? The, the power dynamic is equal. The biggest aha for me was the asymmetrical relationship. Now, an asymmetrical relationship is one where one person holds more power than the other. A teacher will always hold more power than a student. A boss will always hold more power than an employee. A parent will always hold more power than a child, even an adult child. And so asymmetrical relationships, this definition, it doesn't mean that it's dysfunctional or toxic. It's just a very natural, normal power imbalance that is actually quite healthy for the function of our society. But when I began to realize, "Oh, so my pastor holds more power than I do, which is why, which is why I feel compelled to say yes whenever h- they ask me to do something," or, "My parent holds more power than I do, which is why I feel guilty every time I need to say no to them. Oh, I hold more power than my child does, which is why I feel like there's this like weird imbalance." It's actually not weird. It's good and natural. Uh, the next type of relationship is a parasitic relationship, and a parasitic relationship is one that actually should be mutual or healthily asymmetrical, but one person is consistently taking at the expense of the other.
Kristen Carder 18:09
So if you think about, um, you know, the parasite taking from the host, where there's not this natural balance. So like, yes, a teacher does hold more power than a student, but the teacher is giving and pouring into and nurturing and teaching the student, so the, the student is actually receiving- From the teacher, and that's great, that's good, that's healthy.In a parasitic relationship, one person is consistently taking and taking and taking and taking at the expense of the other person. And when we can look at our li- at, at the relationships in our lives and say, "Okay, where are there relationships that should be mutual? My, my friends. Okay, great. Do they feel mutual? Do they feel balanced? Do I feel like there's an equal enough give and take? Of course, it's not gonna always be, like, exactly 50/50, but is there a good give and take, or am I always pouring into them, and whenever I need something, they're just not there for me?" That's a really important kind of question to ask yourself. In the asymmetrical relationships in your life, where, like, a parent holds more power, and it's their job to nurture and care and give and pour into you, d- are you feeling that? Are you, are you on the receiving end of their energy, or is the direction, the flow of energy actually going from child to parent? 'Cause that's quite inappropriate. So being able to recognize, like, healthy power imbalance or healthy power balance, and then, and then question, is this relationship actually operating the way it was meant to, or is there some parasitical vibe happening here that I might want to interrupt a little bit? That changed my whole life.
Sara Bybee Fisk 20:09
I think in the experience that I have had and some of the women that I coach, looking under the hood involves the potential for some pain.
Kristen Carder 20:20
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 20:21
The potential to find something that you know maybe subconsciously that you're kidding yourself about or you've just truly never looked at before.
Kristen Carder 20:30
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 20:31
And so often that's kind of what gets in the way of taking a look, and then what is my responsibility then? Do I say something? Do I, like-
Kristen Carder 20:44
Mm
Sara Bybee Fisk 20:44
... how do I handle that? Because where my work and your work really intersect is I'm teaching women how to have those hard conversations, how to have the nervous system regulation to get to a point where they can talk about what they need and talk about what they want. And so-
Kristen Carder 20:58
Mm
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:00
... the really valuable kind of place in your book where this kind of started to come together in a new way for me was, first of all, your discernment questions.
Kristen Carder 21:08
Mm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:08
Like, the literal questions that you give in your book for how do I decide my-
Kristen Carder 21:16
Mm
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:16
... relationship tiers.
Kristen Carder 21:18
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:19
So this framework-
Kristen Carder 21:21
Yeah
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:21
... your relationship tiers, helps us decide how much time and energy and attention, and even vulnerability, that different relationships should get based on what that relationship is like for us.
Kristen Carder 21:38
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:38
And for people who have spent so much of their lives just trying to show up in a way that, "Will you like me? Will you accept me?"
Kristen Carder 21:45
Mm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:45
"Can I belong here? Is it okay that I sit here? Do you like what I'm wearing? Did I do enough for you?" Right? Where we're so outward-focused, like you described-
Kristen Carder 21:54
Mm
Sara Bybee Fisk 21:54
... to be able to take that focus through your discernment questions and turn that focus back on us-
Kristen Carder 22:00
Mm
Sara Bybee Fisk 22:00
... is such a gift.
Kristen Carder 22:02
Mm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 22:02
So tell us about relationship tiers. You're gonna have to buy the book to get those discernment questions, and it's- ... 30 bucks. Are you kidding me?
Kristen Carder 22:10
Ugh.
Sara Bybee Fisk 22:10
Such a deal. But tell us about relationship tiers.
Kristen Carder 22:14
Yeah, so as I was figuring all of this out, and at the same time simultaneously in therapy, working on my relationships, working on my relationship with myself, with other people, and coaching clients in my coaching program and trying to help them too, what I realized was we, at least we neurodivergent ADHD folks, but maybe everyone that identifies as growing up in dysfunctional or enmeshed or toxic family systems, we need some more clarity than we have. And again, it comes back to trying to be all things to all people, trying to make everybody happy, trying to feel safe in every single space that I'm in, and wanting to be authentic, wanting to be my real self, and how much of myself do I give? So I developed a framework called the relationship tiers, which really I think is just a very simple way to think through all of the relationships that we navigate in our lives, because think about how many relationships that you have. Like, you have your immediate family, your partner, maybe you have some kids. Then you have your extended family, maybe, you know, parents and in-laws and sib- siblings and cousins, like, all of those. And that's not even counting your colleagues, the people at your kids' school, your neighbors, your friends, people on your hockey team, whatever. So some of y'all are navigating, like, 100 relationships, and if we're trying to treat everyone the same, and if we're trying to be all things to all people, we're gonna burn out. We have burned out.So many of us have burned out. Or we don't really recognize it as burnout, but it's like, "I need to cancel everything and go hide in a cave for, like, three weeks," and it's just like, "I don't know why I can't get anything done. I don't know why I'm procrastinating on everything." It's like, that's why, honey. That is why. So when we think about our relationships through the framework of tiers, then we can really understand how to prioritize. Who do I give my- the most of my time and attention to? Who do I give my emotional bandwidth to? So tier one is, I just created arbitrary numbers based on my experience and the experience of my clients. I think tier one is usually one to five people. If we're lucky, I've never had five people in my tier one, but tier one is people who we are very close to, who we want to give the most of our vulnerability to, the most of our time and effort and energy to, the, the people that we are just like, "These are my people." Now, keep in mind, the tiers are meant for mutual relationships. So these are for friends and for siblings or in-laws and cousins, and, like, these are not for your kids, these are not for your parents, these are not for your boss, okay? The tiers are for mutual relationships where the power dynamic is equal. And tier one is your ride or die, your, your closest people. You've known them for a while. They've been consistent enough, loyal enough, kind enough, accepting enough. Not perfect, but they've shown you over time that they're trustworthy. Then tier two is such an important tier.
Kristen Carder 25:33
I don't want anyone to think that tier two isn't important, but it is... it's m- they don't get as much as, of your vulnerability. So tier two are your fun, casual friends. Um, I have a lot of tier two people, um, especially right now. Like, my son plays water polo, and the parents on his team are so fun. Like, we have a couple couples there that we, like, hang out with and we go to tournaments with and we go out to dinner with, and I-- We're having, like, a Friendsgiving with them. It's so fun. But I'm not gonna call them crying. I'm not gonna share my deepest, darkest secrets. I'm not, I'm not gonna expect them to give me, you know, a ton of vulnerability, and I'm not going to expect myself to show up for them in that way either, and, uh, that's a key takeaway.So tier two is about 5 to 15 people, depending on just, like, the season of life that you're in. And again, these are fun, casual friends, not necessarily the ride or die people, but just, like, fun people that you enjoy being around. And then tier three is basically everybody else. Most of the people in your life are going to fit into tier three, which is just like a casual acquaintance. And so here's what's so freeing about this, is that when I see, like, a soccer mom on the sideline of my youngest son's soccer game, I can just be like, "Hey, what's up?" And she can be like, "Nothing. You good? I'm good. Okay." And, like, that's it. There's no obligation. I don't need to remember that her, like, oldest is having a thing, da, da, da. I don't need to text her. There's not the emotional obligation there. We can smile, we can be kind, we can be cordial, but there's not... Again, I'm gonna use the word obligation again because I think that's what so many of us feel, is like, "I have to show up for everybody." And it's like, no, you don't. You need to show up for your tier one people. Those are the people that you really wanna make sure you show up for. You need to be available occasionally to your tier two people and just enjoy friendship, like casual friendship. And then everyone else, you can smile and nod and say, "Yeah, no problem." Then there is a tier four. We can talk about the super secret tier four, but I don't know if you, uh, wanted to, like, comment on the, the, the three tiers. Like, has that helped you at all to, like, understand the framework of relationships? Or, like, how has that, um... I'm just getting into interviewer mode 'cause that's what I'm comfortable with. Sorry.
Sara Bybee Fisk 28:02
Love it, and, and actually I, I did have something that connected for me a little bit differently that I do think-
Kristen Carder 28:09
Oh, yeah
Sara Bybee Fisk 28:09
... a lot of my listeners will connect with, in that I, when you were talking about, you know, not knowing where it comes from, like, like, neurodivergence, enmeshment, like-
Kristen Carder 28:19
Hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 28:20
... where that needing to show up for everyone the same, for me, that comes from my conservative religious background. Like, that's where it comes from, and it's enmeshment that if I can give something to someone, I should.
Kristen Carder 28:37
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 28:37
That that's what Jesus would want me to do. And a- and, and high-demand religions demand everything, and everybody gets everything, and that's how you prove your faithfulness.And so it is such an insidiously reinforcing circle that I give and I show up, and I don't, I don't ever... And, and, and it's actually, like, um, selfish of me-
Kristen Carder 29:05
Yes
Sara Bybee Fisk 29:05
... to ask, "What's in this for me? What am I getting out of this?" It's maybe even sinful in some contexts to be in it for myself when I should just be loving my neighbor as myself.
Kristen Carder 29:17
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 29:17
And that's-- I mean, I, I'm not gonna say I'm against it- ... but I can also see how that creates this relationship blindness-
Kristen Carder 29:31
Yes
Sara Bybee Fisk 29:32
... that I think is so common. And so when I get women who feel like they're so resentful, they are resentful as hell underneath-
Kristen Carder 29:42
Yeah, yeah
Sara Bybee Fisk 29:43
... or they're lonely-
Kristen Carder 29:45
Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 29:45
... or they are so, like, almost heartbroken that what they thought they were working so hard to get by giving and giving and showing up and showing up, now they're in their, like, early 40s, mid-40s, fif- you know, 50s, and like, "Is this just what it's gonna be like?"
Kristen Carder 30:04
Hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:05
And they don't know how to change it 'cause it feels like... Remember when we all wore corded headphones and they were all in the junk drawer together, and taking them apart just felt like the nightmare? That's what it feels like.They don't know where to start.
Kristen Carder 30:17
Hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:18
And it's scary to start.
Kristen Carder 30:20
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:20
And so what I love about your book is that it is such a perfect companion to what I am trying to teach them to do because I'm like, "Okay, now to actually change that, you have to talk about it."
Kristen Carder 30:35
Hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:37
And they all make that same face that you're making right now. Like, "Can't we just wait till it gets better? Can't we just hope that sometime in the future they get it? Won't they eventually, like, maybe learn to just read my mind about this?" I'm like, "No, babe. And actually talking about it is the most powerful thing you can do, and I can help you learn how to do that-
Kristen Carder 30:56
Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 30:57
... with a steady enough nervous system." And I use that steady enough-
Kristen Carder 31:01
Enough, yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 31:02
And so when you are talking about good enough, when you are talking about, like, good enough relationships and good enough-
Kristen Carder 31:11
Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 31:12
... it just, it felt like someone walking up alongside me, taking my hand, and saying, "We're gonna do this together."
Kristen Carder 31:19
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 31:19
"Here are the questions you need to start with. Here's how it's safe to look under the hood."
Kristen Carder 31:25
Mm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 31:25
And even if you only tell yourself the truth first, even if the first person you are honest with, and I say this all the time, the first person you have to be honest with is yourself. And so of the hundreds of things, okay, maybe not hundreds, of the many things that I highlighted in your book, the way you ended it just felt like so beautiful.Because what you say is, "The work is not to become perfect. The work is to become honest."
Kristen Carder 31:58
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 31:59
Honest about what is hard for you, honest about what you need, honest about what you can and cannot carry, honest about who you are.
Kristen Carder 32:08
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 32:10
And I just wondered what you would want someone listening to this to understand-
Kristen Carder 32:17
Mm
Sara Bybee Fisk 32:17
... about becoming honest.
Kristen Carder 32:19
Hmm. I just wanna hug every single person listening, because I know so viscerally how difficult it is to be honest.Because we have been conditioned to lie to ourselves and to other people. We've been conditioned to pretend. We've been conditioned to fake it. And that has worked in a lot of ways, because it has, quote-unquote, "kept the peace," and it has allowed you to stay connected to the people that you're connected to, and it's possible that being honest might disrupt that connection. And I, too, resonate, and, and I actually really wished that I had included this in, in the book, because I, I totally resonate with that being brought up in fundamental Christianity and feeling like, not that I earn my salvation, but I prove my salvation by how much I give.
Sara Bybee Fisk 33:33
Yeah.
Kristen Carder 33:34
But I just wanna say to anyone who is currently or formerly religious, Jesus did not come as a peace keeper. He came as a peacemaker, and there is a big difference. Because you keep the peace by being quiet and pretending and faking, but we're actually called to be peacemakers, and that, that requires some disruption.To make peace. How do we make peace? We make peace by being honest. How do we make peace with ourselves? Telling ourselves the truth. How do we actually m- make actual peace with other people, authentic peace? We tell the truth. We're honest. And it might cost you. It might co- it will cost you. Let's just say will. It will cost you. Um, but it will also give you so much, because on the other side of radical honesty is groundedness and relational adulthood, and a firm, steady nervous system that can tolerate the ups and downs of the relationships that you're in. But that cannot come without the honesty. It just can't. It absolutely cannot. And so I feel for people who are at the be- like, I, girl, I would not wanna do this over again. Like, I feel for people who are at the beginning of the journey, you know? But I, I just, I hope that with people like sara, with resources like my book, that you can actually feel like you do have a companion along the way and not feel alone or like you're floundering or, like, drifting, um, off in the wind. Because there are ways that you can move forward and be honest and make peace with the people that you care about most. It, it does kind of hinge on whether or not they consent to-
Sara Bybee Fisk 35:39
Yeah
Kristen Carder 35:39
... the relationship kind of changing. It's never too late to renegotiate a relationship. You have that available to you at all times.And I, I like to use the example of, like, with our kids. We're constantly renegotiating the relationship that we have with our kids. First they're newborns, and then they're infants, and then they're toddlers, and we're just trying to, like, figure it out and, and we're constantly renegotiating. Now I have an 18-year-old, sara. I'm, like, in that stage of, like, post-high school graduation, and, like, it's a brand-new relationship. It's never too late to renegotiate the relationships that we have, and it doesn't just apply to your kids. You can go to your partner and say, "Hey, some of this isn't working for me." You can go to your parent and say, "Hey, some of this isn't working for me. Can we talk about the parts that I'm struggling with, and would you be willing to have that conversation with me?" You can go to your best friend and say, "Hey, when you say that, that really hurts my feelings, and I know I've never told you before. It's just because I've been embarrassed." But I'm ready to tell you, I actually don't like it when you joke about that. That hurts me. Would you be willing to stop? And just, it's so vulnerable, but that is what these healthy relationships require of us
Sara Bybee Fisk 36:56
And the other thing that is waiting on the other side of all of this, which you are right, this is the work that I have been involved in and who I am today. Gosh, I would not, I would not want to have to go back and, and, and do that.But I am a person with secure, loving relationships. And I didn't have that before, partly because I didn't know-
Kristen Carder 37:22
Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:22
... how to figure out how to have them.
Kristen Carder 37:24
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:25
I had other people in my life who were willing to have that with me.
Kristen Carder 37:28
Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:29
But I was so caught up in feeling abandoned and potentially rejected and-
Kristen Carder 37:34
Yeah
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:34
... and where did I put the fucking keys? And-
Kristen Carder 37:37
Yeah
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:37
... all of the different things that I, I couldn't see it. I was blind to the possibility.And then I also know, as do you from reading your book, I know this, I'm also capable of ending relationships that don't work for- that hurt too much-
Kristen Carder 37:53
Yep. Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:53
... that are not worth what happened. And I know that that is scary.
Kristen Carder 37:58
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:58
I know that it's scary for people listening because subconsciously we know our relationships, they're gonna get... They might get more connected, but they also might get really clear.
Kristen Carder 38:09
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:09
And that clarity might hurt a little bit.
Kristen Carder 38:11
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:12
But I love what you said because I believe it is true after reading, you know, this book. It is the book that I would have wanted. It's the book that I wish someone had given, like, my 15-year-old self.
Kristen Carder 38:26
Yes. Yes.
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:27
Junior, junior fucking high. Oh my gosh.
Kristen Carder 38:29
Yes.
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:30
And high school and college, and then-
Kristen Carder 38:32
Mm-hmm
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:32
... having relationships and going into the workforce and having children. So it is exactly what you hope it is, Kristen.
Kristen Carder 38:41
Mm-hmm.
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:41
It is someone walking beside you, giving you a framework for, like, how do we pop the hood and look at what's going on under here in a way that is doable, in a way that is so clear, in a way that is funny, and in a way that is so helpful. So thank you so much from the bottom of my heart and from those who are listening.Thank you for this book.
Kristen Carder 39:02
Hmm. I don't know what to say.I am so grateful for your words and like I said earlier before we were recording, I will stitch them onto my soul. I receive it, and I just am so happy that I was able to chat with you today.
Sara Bybee Fisk 39:20
I hope so. Thank you for being here. I will link to your book, to your amazing podcast, to your program. Is there anything else that you wanna share as we wrap up here?
Kristen Carder 39:30
Um, no. You're not in trouble, so just, uh, carry on.
Sara Bybee Fisk 39:34
Carry on.
Kristen Carder 39:34
Act like it. Act like you're not in trouble, y'all.
Sara Bybee Fisk 39:37
Love it.
