Episode 158 - When Speaking Up Changes Your Life with Jessica Carlson
If you’ve been curious about what it looks like to say what you need to say in practice, today you’ll hear from someone who found her outside voice and is using it to create the life she wants. Jessica Carlson has spent years serving others—as a pastor’s wife, a mom, a teacher, and now supporting college students in getting the resources they need. Jessica and I first connected over our shared background in high-demand religion, and since we began working together, I’ve watched her life transform. She learned to speak up messily and imperfectly, and to support herself through hard conversations that once felt impossible. Jessica’s journey is a powerful example of how everything can shift when women use their voices, not just for themselves, but for the kind of change they want to see in the world. Here’s what we cover:
What Jessica’s life looked like when she first joined the Stop People Pleasing group
The power that comes from realizing you get to choose the kind of discomfort you feel in relationships
Why the goal isn’t always to say no, but to understand you have that option when you need it
How a simple step-by-step process helps you find the right words and practice speaking up
Jessica’s journey of running for public office and the changes she has made by working on this skill
Jessica Carlson is a university career coach and former high school teacher. She lives in the midwest with her husband of 23 years and 2 children, both in college. She has a bachelor’s in English and secondary education and a master’s in education. She was raised in a fundamentalist high-demand religious context and then married a Christian pastor through which church experiences compounded the people pleasing she learned at an early age. At her core, she serves people but that service as a wife, mom, teacher, and community member caused her to lose herself. Jessica is a reflective thinker and someone who cares deeply about connection and meaning but has only recently realized that her voice matters and that it is powerful and she can impact systems. She is especially drawn to conversations about how we unlearn the pressure to be everything for everyone, and what it looks like to choose ourselves, sometimes for the first time.
Find Jessica here:
Find Sara here:
pages.sarafisk.coach/difficultconversations
youtube.com/@sarafiskcoaching1333
Transcript
Sara Bybee Fisk 00:59
I'm so excited for today's conversation. It is with one of my very most favorite people, Jessica Carlson. I'm so grateful for your time and your willingness to come on the podcast today, and I just wanted to tell people a little bit about you, is that okay?
Jessica Carlson 01:14
It's great. Yes.
Sara Bybee Fisk 01:15
Okay, Jessica is one of these amazing people who just at her core, she loves to serve people. And she has spent a lot of time in service as the wife of a pastor, a mom, a teacher, and now she works with college students, making sure that they get all the educational resources that they need. And I think Jessica, you and I kind of initially connected over our shared background in high demand religions, right?
Jessica Carlson 01:45
Yes. Yeah. I met you through another coach that you came on with our group there and presented your material as a partner coach. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, wait a minute. I think at my core, this is my issue. Yeah.
Sara Bybee Fisk 02:03
Yeah. Yeah. And it is for so many women. And one of the things that I notice about you, Jessica, and the thing that has kept us in conversation is that Jessica is a really deep thinker and something will trigger a thought for you and you'll DM me or you'll email me. And so we're constantly kind of in this little conversation back and forth about, I noticed this and then I did this and Jessica, if you have one strength, it's that you just keep going. You keep implementing the things that we have learned together. You keep implementing other things you've learned other places and it's, I would say, and I'm wondering if you're going to agree with this, that your life two or three years ago when we met looks very different now than what it looked like then. Is that fair? It looks so different. Yes.Okay. Well, that's what I want to talk about because if we can kind of boil it all down to what is the one thing, the one or two things that you have really learned to do over and over again, and you have learned to do them messy, it doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to come out exactly right, but you have learned to speak up. I have. Yeah. Yeah. And you've learned how to support yourself as you speak up and say things and have hard conversations and communicate ideas that at one point would have really been scary for you. Is that fair to say? That's, that's exactly right. Okay. So let's get into it. When you first started working with me in the Stop People Pleasing group, what was life like for you then?
Jessica Carlson 03:43
I felt broken. I didn't know really how to make decisions for myself. I felt kind of at a crossroads in a lot of ways. I was about to be an empty nester. I had left the classroom. I had been a teacher for 20 years. I was struggling with my identity. I was just in the midst of taking a new job that I was like, it was a totally like really new industry for me. I didn't know how to advocate for myself in what I needed in my personal relationships and my professional relationships. And the things that you said, it really resonated with me. And I didn't really believe you that I could do it. I mean, I'll be honest. I was really skeptical, but I was desperate. And I was like, she's so hopeful and she says it will work. And I just need someone to tell me that. And I was like, okay. And you said, just do one thing. I'm like, okay, I can do one thing. Just one thing. And so I learned that advocacy piece by piece because the things that you said really fit with my struggles. And that's kind of where I was at.And I feel like my inside my core is totally different. It's more authentic to who I originally was, like how you talk about our little me. I'm sure a lot of the speakers have or the listeners here have heard you talk about a little me and who my little me was and how she was looking towards like the future. And so that was something that really inspired me to do this work.
Sara Bybee Fisk 05:20
Well, that doing just one thing, I mean, that has really, really been the way you've revolutionized your life. And we're getting into specifically what that looks like.When you look back, that lack of advocacy, like lack of ability to advocate for yourself, my guess is, and I think we've talked about this, like you were able to advocate for your students or for other people who couldn't speak up, but when it came to your, yeah, your own kids, your students, other people who depended on you, but it was in your own personal life around some tender, hard things that were happening there that you didn't feel like you could speak up. Is that fair to say?
Jessica Carlson 06:01
No, I was totally a coward I was and I was bringing it all inward which just like I That's why I felt so broken is Bringing it all inward and I felt that that was what I was that was my sacrifice and like we're supposed to be Sacrificing like I was from a very young age like you said in the high demand religion background The woman is the one that sacrifices and that is supposed to be this beautiful thing and there's certainly a part of it like in Relationships you do sacrifice if there's a healthy part of that, but you also can lose yourself in that so I lost myself completely and so I thought when you started with identity and who are you and like What do you want like your dream?I'm like, um Like I can have one of those Like you gave me permission to dream
Sara Bybee Fisk 06:53
that makes me so happy because that's what I want. I want women to be able to look at their life and create and imagine and dream. And I'm really glad that you felt like you saw permission to do that.When you look back at where that lack of advocacy or lack of ability to speak up was showing up in your personal life, was it around specific situations? Was it in specific relationships?
Jessica Carlson 07:25
I would say that let's start at the bottom, like the easier ones, the hard ones. So in my professional life, I knew I had great ideas. I knew I was really a master in my field. I was a national board certified teacher if anyone knew what that is. And yeah, I would even have an administrator at the end of the year saying, you need to speak up more to your team. Like you need to tell them these ideas. You tell them to me and like, you need to do that. And I still, I wouldn't because I didn't want to, you know, be contrary to anyone's viewpoint. And I didn't know how to do conflict. And conflict is bad, bad, bad, bad. And I didn't want people to not like me. That was a big deal.And I want to be like the nice person that was everyone's friend. And like, you can still be that way and also not lose yourself. And so professionally, I would just do my thing, but I didn't really kind of, I think, speak up when I wanted to. Again, I would just say, oh, it's not my place.
Sara Bybee Fisk 08:33
I noticed you said just a second ago, I was, I was a total coward. And I'm wondering, like we know, we know through, you know, decades of studies and books and personal experience that women are programmed and taught to care for relationships over themselves.And so what I wonder is in like your professional life, I hear some defaulting to taking care of the relationship between you and the other people on your team over your ideas that might raise some conflict or, you know, there might be some explaining or some, some questions. And I know that that can feel in retrospect, or maybe even when it's happening like cowardice, but does it also feel like it was part of how you, you were taking care of those relationships through maybe some compliance and performing what you thought they wanted you to be?
Jessica Carlson 09:30
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I didn't want to cause anything that would make it more difficult to be in relationship with each other. I didn't want to feel uncomfortable in that way, but I knew that I was choosing another kind of discomfort.And that discomfort was just imploding. And I didn't know what to do with it. And so learning that there's two kinds of discomfort, and I get to choose the discomfort that I would want. That was mind blowing. I'm like, wait a minute, I don't like this discomfort in holding in and not saying what I believe is right or what in that case, like what my students would need or really like standing up for individuals that, you know, might be marginalized or being hurt in some way by the system. And I was like, wait a minute, like, which is worse? Which discomfort is worse and which one do I want to choose and envisioning that discomfort? Then I was it was a no brainer. I'm like, wait a minute. Like if I can handle this discomfort, I can handle that discomfort. I just never thought it was an option.
Sara Bybee Fisk 10:42
That is something I talk a lot about, and I just want to give a good example so that if people listening for the first time aren't familiar with what you're talking about, when we are stuck in people pleasing patterns where we're not speaking up, we're not telling people what we need, we are not advocating for ourselves or boundaries, our preferences, that is uncomfortable. We feel overworked, we feel alone, we feel resentful, we feel, you know, there's a lot of negative emotions, but we're just kind of used to it because that's the way we've lived our whole lives.I was also a teacher, I also had a team, right? I didn't want them to be mad at me for suggesting something that would take more time or something that they didn't want to do. So I'm really familiar with that dynamic, but any woman who has been raised in our kind of Western patriarchal way is going to feel that pressure in a group where I don't want to stick out, I don't want them to be mad at me, and that's one type of discomfort. But then there's the other kind of discomfort of I'm not speaking up clearly, I'm not getting what I need, I'm working late or long, I'm taking work home with me because I'm not able to say what I need to say. And so once it becomes clear, like if I stay stuck in this pattern where I can't say what I need to say, I'm gonna experience this type of discomfort for the rest of my life, or I can lean into the discomfort of speaking up because it's uncomfortable either way. And seeing that and being empowered to choose, I actually want to choose the discomfort of speaking up because I like what that's gonna get me, I like the direction that that's gonna take my life.
Jessica Carlson 12:32
Just to give another tangible example, the very first thing that I tried, because you're like, just try this with one little thing. It wasn't a professional thing. It was with my daughter. And we have always been super supportive parents. Whenever the kids were doing something, had an activity like we were there unless there was a conflict like many other parents would. But I also would sacrifice my own personal needs to do that. And I didn't I didn't even consciously I thought, well, I'm not supposed to balance that. I have to be there 100 percent for my kid, because if I'm not there, even one percent, like I've failed as a mom, I was like, I had a way way too high expectations for like what I could be as a mom.And I remember you said, just try one. No, like try like what discomfort do you want to feel? And like try saying no to one of those things and saying yes to the other. And my daughter had a concert now. She is she was she played the flute. She was in the marching band, the concert band, all of that. She had lots of concerts and it like wasn't even her senior year. So we're not even talking like a high stakes concert. And I realized that I had so much to do at home. I was so overwhelmed. And I could have chosen number one to go to her concert and to deal with that continued overwhelm and manage my time. Stay up late, wake up early, whatever that could. Could be, or I could manage the discomfort of saying, can't come to this one. I have to, you know, do this one thing because this is also important for this other area of my life. And I thought to myself, I said, which one is easier right now? Which one do I want to choose? And I said, I need to choose saying no to her concert. And I thought in my mind, OK, my reasons are I've been to every single concert in the last six years, which is actually legitimate. She's been that much. Yes. And I hadn't missed a single one. And I had put so much weight on missing one thing. I'm like, wait a minute. There's parents that don't go to any of them. Yeah. I'm like, I can say no to one concert because I am so overwhelmed. I need sleep. I need to do X, X, X, X. And she was fine. I'd worked up in my mind that it was going to be the end of the world. And she said, oh, mom, that's no big deal. I understand. I was like, wait a minute. That was so easy. And I stayed home. I wasn't even guilty. I was like, this is I'm like, what if I did this all the time?
Sara Bybee Fisk 15:01
And why do I do this all the time? Yes.
Jessica Carlson 15:06
Now I can't say I do it all the time, but I do it a lot of the time now.
Sara Bybee Fisk 15:09
I do want to say the goal is not to do it all the time, right? The goal isn't that you say, no, no, no, I'm not showing up. I'm not showing up for you. I'm not going to that. I'm right that the goal isn't to always say no. The goal is that you have a choice. And what I heard and what you were saying is that before you didn't actually feel like you had a choice to either go to the concert or not. It's feeling obligated like you're a bad parent, a bad mom, if you don't go. And so playing around with when do I need something different? And do I have the option to do what I need? That's the goal.Because this is a really kind of common misconception when I'm talking with women about what it's going to look like when they can say what they need to say, when they are not so stuck in people pleasing. Their concern is, well, I'm just going to be bitchy. I'm going to be selfish. I'm going to alienate all the people who depend on me and love me. And again, that's not the goal. And I think it's interesting. We've been so programmed by patriarchy that the opposite, like a woman who can say what needs to be said and who can advocate for herself. She's a bitchy, selfish woman, right? That's so sneaky. But subconsciously, I think keeps a lot of us from leaning into, where can I say no? Where can I say, you know what, that doesn't work for me. But what I can do is this, or I don't have time in my schedule this week for that. It keeps us from looking for those places.
Jessica Carlson 16:54
I think part of it too for me is like, as, as a child, I was raised that, I mean, there obviously had been shown a chart. There was a chart that had an image of a man, an image of a woman, and it was in a big red book and it was on the shelf in the family room and my dad would pull it out. And I thought that was the way it was supposed to go.And even though in my then like romantic relationships and ultimately my marriage, like the, those connections never said that was the way it was. I didn't walk into relationships that were like that. Actually, I saw relationships that were contrary to that. That was so ingrained in me that even though I was in relationships that were freeing and that were encouraging me to express myself, encouraging me to, you know, advocate for my needs, I still was a girl looking at that chart.
Sara Bybee Fisk 17:50
And the chart, just to be clear, was hierarchy, right? Like men are on top. Right. And then women and then children.
Jessica Carlson 17:59
Because then in another specific way that I learned to advocate for myself was some extended family relationships with males in my said family who had kind of asserted this dominance that even though I have lived separately, I've been married for 23 years and they assumed that their opinions were correct. And then I started speaking out about my opinions.They didn't like it.
Sara Bybee Fisk 18:25
I like that. I wanna hear more about that.
Jessica Carlson 18:30
So, at risk of being political, like the most recent election happened. We're political here, yeah.Okay, all right. I have no problem being political, because the big ending piece of this is now I'm running for public office. So.
Sara Bybee Fisk 18:47
Oh, my goodness, Jessica, what an amazing development and announcement. That's incredible. OK, how did you get there?
Jessica Carlson 18:55
First of all, like little itty-bitty roles. Like we're talking about townships in my state. Like-
Sara Bybee Fisk 19:00
does it matter? This is okay. So back to the beginning.
Jessica Carlson 19:04
I probably in college when I left home was in a pretty diverse university environment that embraced like lots of different faiths, lots of different like beliefs. I started to realize, okay, wait a minute, the way that I was raised, there was so many rich parts of that. So if my family is listening to this, like so many rich benefits to my upbringing. So, you know, I was never really traumatized. I was never abused in any way, you know, physically or mentally.And so I started to go to think like, wait a minute, that there's something wrong with that hierarchy. It's causing not just me, but the broader population of women to be in a state that's not healthy. And so I did start to kind of break away from that. But my opinions in terms of maybe political issues, but also societal issues of how we treat others, like really started to deviate from how I was raised. And especially then still continuing to be in a church environment, I was a pastor's wife. And so I felt I could not express my beliefs, because they were still contrary to many people. And it was also risky, because then that potentially like jeopardizes my husband's position because people can assumptions and oh my gosh, he has this wife that she's so liberal and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.And so and when I did speak out, there was huge repercussions. There was conjure congregation members that said like negative things about our family, we did us on Facebook, which I thought like the world was ending, because I got deleted on Facebook, because again, I didn't I couldn't deal with the conflict. And even though there was like big things at stake. And so when the 2024 election happened, and I realized there's really high stakes now, there's really high stakes for people in my community and people that I love. And I was already working with you, I was already realized that I had stifled all of these beliefs and opinions for decades. And so I said, you know what, whatever, like, I should just start speaking out because people are getting hurt people that I actually know in my community are getting hurt by what was happening at the federal level.And of course, I live in a very conservative state. So there was continued like action to to like, legitimately hurt marginalized people that I care for both in my university setting. And then you know, in my small rural community where I live. And I just started saying my opinion on Facebook. And I was like, you know what, let the chips fall as they may, like, like, I felt like I have nothing to lose. Because again, the discomfort I had chosen for so long is I am going to bottle up myself, I am not going to be me outwardly, I'm just gonna be me like inwardly. And I was done. I'm like, the discomfort I want is potentially causing someone else to feel this discomfort because they realize maybe like, oh, she thinks differently. I'm like, I can't do that anymore. And so it finally came to a head when I said some potential controversial things. And my dad replied to my Facebook. And he said some really mean things at me, like things that I would never actually think he would say he he called me names.
Jessica Carlson 22:44
He talked back and forth to another person in the comments in a really kind of, I would say within hateful way. And he had never really talked that way before.But those were all these talking points I was raised with as a kid, you know, like, it actually was a sin to be a Democrat. Like, that was very much ingrained in me. And when I was expressing those ideas, then I felt, okay, this is risky. And I had to be very direct with him. And I sent him a message is probably the hardest message I ever sent. And I said, this is what I believe. And part of the reason I believe this is because you raised me to serve and love the least, the last and the lost. And this is where it's led me. And if you don't like it, you can delete me. Which years ago, that was, that was something I was trying to avoid. And I was like, you know what, like, I'm gonna be me regardless. And I said, if you continue to mistreat me. you, I will delete you. I will not tolerate being mistreated. And so that was significant for me to, to finally have a boundary before I was thinking about boundaries. I'm like, but they were like wishy washy boundaries. And I was like, no, I don't, I'm not going to be mistreated anymore. I'm not going to be called names. I'm not going to have people to tell me that my opinion doesn't matter. And I love my dad, you know, in a lot of ways, like all of this good stuff in me is also from him. Those were ideals I was raised with, but I had to advocate for myself in that moment. And that was incredibly difficult. And he never replied.No, he read it. He never replied. Yeah, but he also didn't delete me.
Sara Bybee Fisk 24:47
Jessica, I love that story so much and I have some questions. First of all, what did it feel like to go through that process, to see his messages, then to know you had to respond and then to respond?
Jessica Carlson 25:03
Well, at that point, we, like I had worked with you for at least six months. So when it happened, I was like, oh, like it was all of the holy rage in me. And I was like, I mean, in kind of a way, I was thinking like, this has to happen and it has to happen fast. Like I was even actually out of the state on a trip when this happened. And I said, I cannot wait for this. Like I have to, I have to speak up right now. This is the opportunity I cannot wait because waiting would actually give him power. And so the words actually came really quickly to me because I had practiced all those smaller steps. Well, it was really difficult. And I kind of, you know, I like milled over that conversation. I was laying out like all the words in that message, but it was really empowering to tackle something that big, especially because I was able to do it out of a place of love. And I felt like you had taught us, you know, those 10 steps, how, and you might have to fill people in on this. So you say things at the maximum level, the way you probably wouldn't like respond to someone, but you just get it all out. And then you think about, okay, if it's a little bit less, right, like how do I soften that? And you talked to us about the softener. So I said, you know, I want to actually maintain this relationship. I didn't want to cut it off. I mean, ultimately he could have chosen that, but ultimately I finally wanted it to be his choice because I was laying out like, this is what I need from you. And to be in relationship with me, either in person or online, whatever that looked like, like this is what I need and this is what I expect. And if you don't meet those expectations, that's on you.
Sara Bybee Fisk 26:50
Okay, I love that so much. Oh my gosh. The process that Jessica is talking about, you can hear about it in episode 23, Say What You Want to Say. It's a process for finding the right words, and that's what she's talking about. My question coming back to your story though is, how did you know that you could do it? How did you know that you could have such a difficult conversation with arguably one of the hardest people? I think our parents, for a lot of us, are some of the hardest people to really have these conversations with. How did you know that you could do it and survive?
Jessica Carlson 27:29
I think because of being in a group with the other women and hearing that they were struggling the same way and the way that you start with the celebrations and the way that a lot of them had tackled really difficult conversations. And it started to let me know, just kind of on the back end of my brain, I was still thinking like, I can't ever do that, I can't ever do that.But I was doing it in little ways, I was doing it at work, I was doing it in my parenting. And so remembering that, oh, wait a minute, you know, Janie, she did that really big thing. And that was incredible. And I was like, wait a minute, that could be me too. And she talked about how freeing it was and how now she's thinking about like, what's next for her and she's making these decisions. And I'm like, wait a minute, I want that.
Sara Bybee Fisk 28:21
Well, that is the power of being in a group, right, is that we can see our lived experiences in other people's lives. We don't feel so extra special, super broken because we're like, wow, she is struggling with this exact same thing.And so many of us internalize that our lack of capacity is something wrong with us. And so being able to be in a group where you can hear other people working through some of the same issues, you can see the success they're having, it's so magical.
Jessica Carlson 28:54
It is. It really is.I'll be honest, I kind of doubted it at the beginning. But again, I was in a position where I was like, okay, this is me. And I just have to take the one step. One step at a time, like you told us.
Sara Bybee Fisk 29:07
Yeah. So what are some of the other changes? I mean, running for public office and do not diminish it and say it's just a little, you know, little county position. That is a big deal.Tell me about some of the other changes that you've noticed in yourself. Like what are you able to do now?
Jessica Carlson 29:32
So I think it's definitely more automatic for me to know that no is a full answer for my time and my capacity. And so I can say that and not feel guilty because I get to protect my time. I get to protect my energy. I get to protect what I need to do, what I want to do. And that wanting is really what drove that. I'm like, oh, I actually can want things because before I feel like I never really could do that. And so it's now become kind of automatic that like even last week I have a friend that messaged me with this really cool opportunity to like work with students and to do this little thing and be a part of impacting the system. I was like, wait a minute. I am already doing a lot of things. A lot of things already give me life. This is a really cool thing. But if I choose that, I have to not do da da da da da da. And almost immediately I was like, nope, can't do it. Thanks for thinking of me. Such a compliment that you thought of me. But those things are coming really fast to me where before it's like I had to really take a pause. And you also talked about giving time and space. So I remember being on a phone call with someone and they asked me something and I said, at first I was gonna jump in and say, yes. I was like, wait a minute, Sara said that it's okay to say, oh, I gotta think about that, I'll get back to you. Like that's a normal response. But to me, that was also life changing. And so then I realized, wait a minute, I can take that minute and then realize, I do not wanna do that at all. And I can say, no, I'm sorry, not available. And that's a full answer.Also a full answer to say, I don't have the capacity for that. Yes, and I have said that so much in the last six months and no one has challenged me. I expected in my mind, I had worked at this whole thing. Oh, when I say that, people are gonna say, oh wait, but you're so good at this or you can do this or we really need you. And I'm like, I thought through it. I decided for myself, I don't have the capacity for this. And they're like, okay. And I was like, wait, why did I work that up in my mind?
Sara Bybee Fisk 31:49
That's how we're programmed, right? We have these worst case scenarios. And I do think there are times when that does happen, right? There are times when we try to set a boundary or a limit, or we try to make our preferences known. And it happens when we're children and the adults are like, no, you don't matter. What you want doesn't matter. And so we quickly learn what matters more is what other people want, their time, their energy. And we just kind of fold ourselves around that. And some of it we do because we have to, because kids, right, we both have children. They need to be taken care of when they need to be taken care of. And so that kind of sacrificial way of life that we get into just becomes the way we do everything.But what I love, and you just spoke to this over and over in our group coaching, that worst case scenario where we lose the relationship or people are mad at us or they don't like our reasons, that is rare. What is much more common is people adjust. And people say, yeah, that makes sense.
Jessica Carlson 32:58
I think the next step, and this kind of heads into the public office, is that my role in the community kind of changed because I went from a K-12 setting to where I'm in a higher education setting. I don't have any stake in the community as far as my financial status. I'm not getting paid by anyone in my area. My kids are graduated. I don't have any risk to their position, and that was a huge deal as a teacher. I can't do anything that makes anyone mad because ultimately we all know people retaliate against your kids. At that point, we were actually not serving full time in a church anymore, so I was a little bit removed from that, still involved very much in Christian ministry, but I didn't have that high stake anymore. My former colleagues were in a really terrible, and still are, a really terrible circumstance in my former district. And because I was a safe person, I understood the issues, I understood the people that were driving these big problems in the district that they didn't have anyone to talk to. So they all reached out to me, numerous people were reaching out to me like, did you hear what's happening? I'm like, yeah, it's awful. Like, I don't, I'm so sorry, your experience is they would just vent all of the problems because they couldn't talk about it openly because in lots of systems and workplaces, if you talk openly about the problems, you're done. Or if you confront the problems, you're done. I think especially in schools, this is the case. And so I was like, oh my, they need help. And I have zero risk, zero risk, what people in my community don't like me, I already now don't care because I can be me and I can advocate for what I want to advocate for.So I started speaking up in a real way that made people really uncomfortable. I started writing letters to the editor. I made public posts on Facebook, directly addressing the problem, calling out the people that were causing the problems. And I went to school board meetings that were broadcasted live, calling out names. I had teachers that wrote whole scripts. And I stood up and said, your teachers wrote this and they can't be here to speak it because they'll face retaliation, but I'm going to tell you right now. And so that kind of started this, I don't know, this trickle effect of, wait a minute, like, I'm not afraid anymore to speak up for what I think is right. And for also listening to people, I'm very good at facilitating conversations. I mean, as a teacher, we just said that, you know, and meeting people in the middle and I'm an Enneagram nine. And so I'm all things to all people. And then I started getting involved in local politics and understanding how that kind of worked. I'm already kind of a nerd, like a history kind of nerd. And I had been involved in some education policy work a couple of years ago that kind of set the stage for that. And so all of a sudden these, they were talking about, oh, well, you can be in this position and you just help people know where to vote.
Jessica Carlson 36:20
Like, oh, well, that's really easy. It's called in Indiana, it's called being a precinct chair. I was like, oh, I just help people know where to vote. Like all people, hey, that sounds so great. Like everyone should vote.Like, that's really easy. And they're like, oh, wait, you can be a state delegate. And you get to go to Indianapolis and you get to be at this big convention and you get to decide who's going to run for state office. And I was like, wait a minute. That sounds pretty cool. Like I could do that for one day. And then I was reading all the positions. I'm like, that's not very much work. Like I like I could do more. And I started looking at the various duties like, well, you can also be a township board member and you get to decide how a portion of your taxes are spent in your township. And for me, that's like, I don't know, that's maybe a 10 mile block of land and the couple hundred people that live here. I was like, wait, we have money that we spend. They're like, yes, you fund the fire department to come when there's a problem. You fund the cemeteries, you pay the library so you can get a library card. I'm like, oh, like there's people that decide that. And I could talk to my neighbors and find out what they need. Like that's so cool. And so like now I'm going to be on a ballot to do these things.
Sara Bybee Fisk 37:38
I mean, if you're seeing the YouTube version of this, I'm grinning ear to ear, because just to see you open up this way, right, to go from someone who was afraid to speak up for herself to speaking up, not just for others, but in such a public way, running for public office, allowing your name to be put on a ballot where people are literally going to vote, right, for you. Jessica, that is just that's such an incredible transformation.And I just have to ask, what do you think of yourself now?
Jessica Carlson 38:18
whatever I want. And I don't mean that in a way of like, I'm gonna like, bulldoze over people.Of course. Yes. Yeah. I can rashly think of what am I really good at? How can I help people within the capacity that I choose? And then how can I use the time that I have? Not only for myself when I need it, but for other people when they need it. And I actually understand how I could balance that all. And I can look to the future and decide what I want in the future too.
Sara Bybee Fisk 38:56
What I think is just incredible is that this is the theme that shows up, I mean, over and over and over again. I have a choice.I know how to use my voice and because I know how to do that, now I have options. I can create the type of life that I'm really interested in creating for myself. I can create the type of life that I'm interested in creating for my family. I can create the type of community that I'm interested in living in. I can have a broader effect on my town where I live, how I show up for the other neighbors and people in my community.
Jessica Carlson 39:40
I think for me too, is that I have been so heartbroken about what's happening at federal level and ultimately how some of the laws being passed at the federal level and at the state level are going to and have already drastically affected people's lives that I care about. But in a lot of ways, I can't do anything about that.Like I can, you know, call my representatives, but that's just a voicemail at this point. They don't even answer the phone anymore, like they did nine months ago. And I mean, I could, I could write more and try to publish it, but like what I really can do is help my own community come together regardless of what they believe. Like regardless if they believe differently from me, like we all in essence really want some of the same things. And so if more of us start to just look at our own talents, our own interests, our own networks, and how can we just start to live a little more to bring people together? And like that's where I get really excited. And so
Sara Bybee Fisk 40:49
exactly what I'm doing. It shows and I'm so I'm in awe of the transformation that you have made, not because I didn't believe it was possible. I believe it's possible for every single woman and I'm really grateful that you felt my belief in you because I've had people who believed in me and that was so important to taking those first steps but I look Jessica at your face and your eyes and you're just so lit up with this vision of your work to do in the world and how you can support not just the life you want for yourself but how that benefits your community and honestly it's making me emotional because it all comes back to the thing that you have been just absolutely dedicated to is just keeping going, taking the next step and the next step and the next step and it's just it's incredible to see. It feels incredible.Well I'm so grateful that you would take some time to walk us through the transformation and how Stop People Pleasing and Group Coaching and working with me was helpful to you. It is such an honor to have played a small part in that. I will absolutely take you know credit for the program that I offer. It's amazing, it's a magical space but it also it doesn't work unless there's someone like you on the other end who's like I'm ready. I'm sick of living in this stuck place where I don't feel like I have any choices and I'm ready to I'm ready to do it and taking those small steps getting up every day and just doing it again and again and again has has been how you've created such an incredible opportunity for yourself. That's right. Jessica is there anything that you didn't get to say that you really wanted to make sure got included in our conversation today?
Jessica Carlson 42:51
I think I didn't believe that my mindset could change. I thought, okay, I'm gonna take these little steps that she says to take. I'm gonna be able to make some of these changes that helped me to express my needs. I had already done that in a couple relationships, in a couple different environments. I had decided, okay, these are my boundaries, this is how I'm gonna be treated.But I didn't think my mind would change. I don't know, I don't know why I didn't. I was, you know, maybe I was still stuck in a lot of that patriarchy that is saying like, you still have to do this. But I'm amazed now at how quick it comes to me. Like it's just a beat.
Sara Bybee Fisk 43:34
And when you're talking about how it comes to you, what's the it?
Jessica Carlson 43:38
That I get to choose based on my capacity, I get to choose the discomfort that I want, and often I'm now choosing the opposite of what I've chosen for decades.
Sara Bybee Fisk 43:48
Yeah, it's just become who you are.
Jessica Carlson 43:50
Exactly. And it also has made some people uncomfortable in my life. And I've just had to say to them, this is what I need. And I don't even apologize.Like I even was typing a message to someone. And they were not happy with me about something. They had actually, it was a misunderstanding. And I was typing, I am so sorry. I was no, no, no, automatically. It's like I kind of heard your voice in my head. I am not sorry. Because what they're expecting of me was not actually like an expectation. I'm like, delete, delete, delete, I said, you know, something completely different. And I actually said, this is who I am. This is what I'm doing. And I didn't say it in this way. But I'm like, kind of like you get what you get. And if that's not for you, go find less. Like if anyone has not heard Elise Myers, like I love Elise Myers. And so she has this whole video of the time and the place where she realized that she was a lot for people. And then she realized that she couldn't, you know, hide herself anymore. And that's where I came. And so like her little mantra is if I'm too much, go find less. And I that I bought her t shirt.
Sara Bybee Fisk 45:13
All of these little pieces have come together in such a powerful way, and it has been such an honor and pleasure to witness what has happened for you and to be a part of it, and I'm just really grateful that you would take the time to let me interview you, and I can't wait to see what happens for you.
Jessica Carlson 45:33
You're so welcome. It's a joy for me to share.
